The Post’s editorial pages have also supported the same narrative. When, last year, the congressional supercommittee was attempting to cut a deal on Social Security, the Post noted that “crunch time” came with “a new round of self-centered, shortsighted intransigence on the part of AARP and its fellow don’t touch-my benefits purists.” Last week, columnist Robert Samuelson used his WaPo space to say that Social Security has evolved into what is now known “as welfare.” He asked a question he and other columnists at elite publications have asked for years: Who among the elderly need benefits? How much? At what age?
Samuelson has made these points before. In 1988, writing for Newsweek, he argued Social Security is a welfare program. In 1996, also in Newsweek, he seemed to challenge Bill Clinton “to alter the debate on ‘middle class entitlements.’” Earlier this year in the Post, Samuelson asserted “spending on the elderly is slowly and inexorably crowding out the rest of government.”
It’s a popular message. Broadcast anchors, hosts, and expert guests have also told the public that Social Security is the cause of the federal deficit, and have narrowly framed the possible cures. The ones mentioned most often include reducing cost-of-living increases; means testing the program, which will turn it into a welfare arrangement; and raising the age of eligibility to 69, 70, or higher. What is the public to think when they hear Eliot Spitzer opine, as he did last year on CNN’s Parker/Spitzer show, that “we need more senators down there who will say very clearly raise the retirement age, do it gradually.”
What are they to think when a CBS Evening News segment offers viewers what Campaign Desk called “a breathless recitation of the horrors befalling the system” that used scare words and phrases like “the system is headed for a crisis” and “there’s no debating that we’re running out of time.”
With that kind of news reporting, young people like the New York City worker can be forgiven for misunderstanding the concept of social insurance and believing Social Security is almost dead. Over the decades since the passage of Social Security in 1935, the media have used the term “social insurance” less and less, which of course keeps people in the dark about what it really is. In 1930, The Washington Post, The New York Times, and the Chicago Tribune together published nearly eighty articles with the words “social insurance” in the headline. In 1990, there were at most two—one in the Times and one in the Post. By then the Cato Institute and other conservative think tanks were well on their way to changing the media’s narrative and description of Social Security. The program was no long to be described as social insurance, but as an investment that fell short of what people could achieve on their own by saving and managing their payroll tax contributions. It was not a good deal for younger workers.
In 1983, Stuart Butler, now director of the Policy Innovation Center at the Heritage Foundation, crafted a manifesto called “Achieving a ‘Leninist” Strategy’” outlining how the right could systematically attack the country’s most popular social program. The document advised “one element involves what one might crudely call guerrilla warfare against both the current Social Security system and the coalition that supports it.” Butler and his coauthor identified key interest groups—the young, the middle-aged, and those nearing or in retirement—to target. The manifesto also described the need for “an education campaign to gain the support of key individuals in the media as well as to win over vital constituencies for political reform,” and it called for exploring and formulating into legislative initiatives “methods of neutralizing, buying out, or winning over key segments of the Social Security coalition.”
Nixon borrowed millions from the social security account to fund the war in Vietnam.
Reagan borrowed from the social security account for his faikled star wars effort.
#1 Posted by Rik McGuire, CJR on Wed 18 Apr 2012 at 06:39 PM
The Social Security trust funds have been and still are invested in special government bonds that have traditionally paid and still pay relatively low interest rates. According to the social security administration (http://www.ssa.gov/oact/ProgData/fundFAQ.html#n3)
"The numeric average of the 12 monthly interest rates for 2011 was 2.417 percent. The annual effective interest rate (the average rate of return on all investments over a one-year period) for the OASI and DI Trust Funds, combined, was 4.401 percent in 2011. This higher effective rate resulted because the funds hold special-issue bonds acquired in past years when interest rates were higher."
This means that the government is getting a bargain and doesn't have to pay even more interest to raise the money it needs to function. So for years, social security has been bailing out the U.S., not the other way around as some right wing pundits would have you believe.
#2 Posted by Robert Cowen, CJR on Wed 18 Apr 2012 at 09:11 PM
Defined contribution plans are fine vehicles to supplement Social Security in one's retirement years. But they are terrible vehicles to replace either Social Security or other defined benefit plans. And let us not forget that corporate raiders like Mitt Romney and Sam Zell can abscond with a private defined benefit OR defined contribution plan and walk away. Just ask the journos at Los Angeles Times.
Putting your entire retirement nest egg in the hands of some fund manager just guarantees that a person will not have sufficient funds to last through the retirement years. Despite the overly optimistic projections that these hucksters show, you just aren't going to end up with a million dollars at retirement. Even if you do, it isn't enough to cover your retirement.
The right has really run a number on the younger crowd. We've had to fight the lunatic right's intention to dismantle Social Security for decades. Fools like the city manager won't even realize it until she gets close to retirement age and really starts digging into the numbers. As soon as this city worker hits age 62, it will dawn on her that she's been had, big time. Don't say we didn't warn you about your stupidity either.
#3 Posted by James, CJR on Wed 18 Apr 2012 at 09:35 PM
Good article. It really is sad how poorly the press has reported on the problems that Social Security does and does not face. There would be problems if nothing is done, but what could be done to remedy the short fall that would appear around 2038 is not so impossible. The issue is discussed, with different options presented in a posting at http://aneconomicsense.com/2012/02/22/social-security-the-issues-can-be-solved/.
If nothing is done, Social Security will face an annual deficit of about 1% of GDP from about 2030, but then it stays at this 1% of GDP for the foreseeable future (the projections go out to 2085). While not small, this 1% of GDP could be raised simply be scaling back the Bush tax cuts by a third (as the Bush tax cuts will be costing about 3% of GDP by the 2030s). Alternatively, one could raise the payroll tax rate from the current 12.4% to a rate of 14.8% from 2038 onwards. That is not impossible.
What one should not do is cut Social Security benefits. They are already extremely low, and many of our elderly depend on Social Security.
#4 Posted by Frank Lysy, CJR on Wed 18 Apr 2012 at 09:59 PM
I GET MEDICAID FOR MY VERY REAL DISABILITY AND OTHER HEALTH CONDITIONS. THEY TOOK ME BY SURPRISE. I USED TO WALK NORMALLY, I HAD NO SAVINGS, I USED THEM TO ATTEND SCHOOL. I WAS BRIGHT SO I GOT A PELL GRANT. BUT MY HUSBAND EARNED LITTLE SO I SPENT MY MONEY FOR SURVIVAL. NOW HE SUPPORTS ME BECAUSE MY MEDICAID INCOME FELL FROM 250 TO 22 DOLLARS A MONTH UNDER BUSH AND AFTER THE REPUBLICANS CUT MEDICARE.
SO THE IDEA PRESIDENT OBAMA DID THAT IS FALSE. THE REPUKES DID THAT!
FORTUNATELY OBAMA'S LAW TO REDUCE OR ELIMINATE MEDICATIONS COSTS NOW IS ALMOST NONE:) THANKS SO MUCH PRESIDENT OBAMA !
VIVA PRESIDENT OBAMA, RA RA RA: FOUR MORE YEARS, YESSS! :)
#5 Posted by Moderate American, CJR on Wed 18 Apr 2012 at 11:45 PM
Good piece. What Trudy didn't say is that the media and foes of Social Security have succeeded in changing the terminology from social insurance to "entitlements," which is hostile code language for, gasp and shudder, welfare. I don't think we in the media should buy that loaded term. It's also really really important for media folks to talk to a representative range of Americans about what Social Security, Medicaid, and Medicaid mean to them and their families, instead of relying on the usual political and policy shop suspects. It's amazing to me that media folks can't see the problems, for instance, with the proposal to raise the SS and Medicare eligibility age at a time when it's so difficult for people in their 50s and 60s to find or keep a job with decent pay and benefits. Every report that discusses that proposal needs to also discuss what problems that would pose for people who can't afford to wait.
#6 Posted by Harris Meyer, CJR on Thu 19 Apr 2012 at 02:47 AM
I was too poorly educated and informed to provide for my health and retirement. I'd be on welfare if Uncle Sam hadn't stepped in and saved my ass by forcing me to save.
#7 Posted by Thomas D Davis, CJR on Thu 19 Apr 2012 at 04:10 AM
America is being imprisoned behind a wall of ignorance built by the profit-driven media. The mission of every progressive should be tearing down that wall.
#8 Posted by Joe Steel, CJR on Thu 19 Apr 2012 at 07:47 AM
To.Harris Meyer
"I don't think we in the media should buy that loader term" You in media shouldn't buy into any loader term; what good is freedom of the press if you just buy into all the crap that politicians feed to the less informed. look at the harm you in the media has cause to public because you are not allowed to speak truth to power or you don't know enough to speak truth to power.
#9 Posted by Jim, CJR on Thu 19 Apr 2012 at 08:19 AM
Social Security is either the crappiest and most unjust welfare program ever devised, or the lousiest and most unjust insurance program ever devised.
You pick.
It Social Security is a welfare program, it sucks. It taxes the poorest workers the most and pays benefits regardless of wealth.
If Social Security is an insurance program it sucks. It charges the most in premiums to the people who receive the least benefit.
Liberals get around this little slice of reality the way always do - by evasion or obfuscation of the issue. When liberals are talking about PAYING for social security, then it's a welfare program and the "poor" are paying to much in tax to support it and the "rich" aren't paying enough.
However, when the first of the month comes, and it's time to talk about BENEFITS, these same liberals (from the other sides of their mouths) change up and tell us that social security is an insurance program and therefore the people who paid the "premiums" (no longer "taxes") are entitled to benefit payments.
Social security needs to be reformed and it will be, once the money starts to dry up (as it already has). Many of the people who support it now, won't do so when their income taxes go up to mail Social Security checks to other people.
#10 Posted by padikiller, CJR on Thu 19 Apr 2012 at 01:40 PM
"Many of the people who support it now, won't do so when their income taxes go up to mail Social Security checks to other people."
Which people and who's taxes?
#11 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Thu 19 Apr 2012 at 03:33 PM
PS. It should also be emphasized that there is no deficit problem unless politicians decide to make one.
The problem is these politicians are set on making one because their contributions come from corporations and the rich, which means cuddly tax cut love and subsidies for them and "tough love" for everybody else.
#12 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Thu 19 Apr 2012 at 03:40 PM
Social Security wasn't created to be a welfare program.
It was an insurance program. Your benefit is based on your contribution.
When the money dries up (as it is starting to do now, ahead of schedule, of course) then, as I see it, one of three things will have to happen:
1. Benefits will be cut. This will piss everybody off and will garner no political support.
2. Money will have to be printed or borrowed to pay benefits. This would result in inflation that will reduce the effective benefits - causing its own type of ire. This kicking the can down the road is the most attractive option to legislators, but the way the debt is skyrocketing, there will almost certainly be no way to accomplish it 20 years from now.
3. Taxes will have to go up on "other people" to pay benefits to retirees. This will also piss people off - The guy with four kids who pays an extra grand in taxes in order to pay benefits to the lady who never worked a day in her life but scores two grand a month in her dead husband's SS benefits isn't going to be a Happy Camper.
The crap WILL hit the fan and Social Security WILL be reformed. The questions are just when and how.
#13 Posted by padikiller, CJR on Thu 19 Apr 2012 at 03:55 PM
"Money will have to be printed or borrowed to pay benefits. This would result in inflation that will reduce the effective benefits - causing its own type of ire. This kicking the can down the road is the most attractive option to legislators, but the way the debt is skyrocketing, there will almost certainly be no way to accomplish it 20 years from now."
Money was printed, paid out in salaries, collected through FICA, stockpiled to the tune of 2 trillion, and made up half of half of annual federal revenue on last count.
But this is nothing new. You haven't had anything new on this topic in a long time.
#14 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Thu 19 Apr 2012 at 05:26 PM
Thimbles wrote: "But this is nothing new. You haven't had anything new on this topic in a long time."
padikiller responds: The truth is invariable.
#15 Posted by padikiller, CJR on Thu 19 Apr 2012 at 06:03 PM
"The truth is invariable."
I know. Which is why I have to keep repeating the data above to centrist democrats who want to save social security by shredding it (otherwise Pete Peterson might say "Son, I am disappoint.") and republicans who want to destroy social security by shredding it (otherwise Grover the friendly tax cutting monster might say "Son? I'ma gonna drown you in the bathtub!").
The fact is, it is reprehensible to suggest a cut to an affordable, guaranteed, paid in advance, benefit for people who have already been robbed of their non-guaranteed income because their pension managers invested in crap assets and/or their company executives raided their pensions for their own payouts.
Fix the general tax revenue problem (the wealthy need to pay a lot more), then talk to me about social security. Until then there's nothing to talk about. Greenspan and Reagan arranged the benefits of today's retirees to be paid WAY in advance. The people paid their share in FICA. If your generation used that income to reduce and defer income taxes, that isn't a poor retiree's problem. The inheritance tax needs to be brought back and the Carter tax rates need to be restored. The wealthy had their breaks, now those breaks are over. PAY UP.
#16 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Thu 19 Apr 2012 at 06:53 PM
Hey! Let's look at how the media, and the conservatives who influence it, have shaped the tax debate
#17 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Fri 20 Apr 2012 at 03:03 PM
Thank you for this article. I think you overlooked the possibility that several politically active billionaires agree that Social Security is terrible and must be destroyed, and since 2008 have coalesced behind Peter G. Peterson to support this massive propaganda effort. They control, or their friends do, the companies that own all the major media. I do not understand why they hate Social Security. The reasons they offer up are so removed from reality they can't be accepted as the real reasons, and are so irrational it is hard to believe they are held by people who actually are able to function in society without being attended by keepers. I constantly see the statement that the government borrowed all the social security funds. This is irrelevant. Others complain that they could get better returns elsewhere. Have they looked at how their friends' IRAs and 401(k)s are doing? The example you cite of the Washington Post is instructive. They do not only put the misleading stories on their opinion pages, they regularly editorialize in their news stories against Social Security. Given such widespread agreement in the "elite" media, the only plausible explanation seems to be that there is a massive right-wing conspiracy. Yes, I know I should never impute evil if stupidity is a sufficient explanation, but in this case I don't think mere stupidity can explain such a sustained barrage of lies.
#18 Posted by Procopius, CJR on Sun 22 Apr 2012 at 10:00 PM
On the subject of the media:
http://mediamatters.org/blog/201204200009
"The very first sentence of the CNN Money article:
Critical to reining in the United States' long-term debt will be finding ways to control the burgeoning costs of Medicare and Social Security, both of which will face serious funding shortfalls over the next two decades.
But immediately above this sentence, CNN Money was kind enough to include this chart..
The chart shows that "entitlements' growing share of [the] economy" is really just Medicare's growing share of the economy -- and higher spending on Medicare is a result of rising health care costs. Social Security costs are not "burgeoning," and to claim that they are does a disservice to CNN's readers."
And on the subject of Petey Peterson, I made a few comments here:
http://www.cjr.org/the_audit/austerity_and_objectivity.php#comment-52930
(I'm starting to see I've inadvertently built up a bit of a library over the years here. If that's to anyone's annoyance, sorry about that)
#19 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Mon 23 Apr 2012 at 02:23 AM
Of course the reason why we may be on the subject of Peter son of Peter might be the Felix Salmon piece (where he sends a hello to Trudy's work) here:
http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2012/04/20/how-pete-peterson-is-driving-the-fiscal-consensus/
Which should make you brush the dust of this Ari Berman piece here:
http://www.thenation.com/article/164073/how-austerity-class-rules-washington
#20 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Mon 23 Apr 2012 at 02:38 AM
One thing I will never understand in the debate about Social Security is why we cannot at least try the solution that would go a long way towards ensuring its solvency for many more years to come. There is NO good reason why the wealthiest wage-earners are exempt from the S/S tax, as they are now. Eliminate or at least raise the salary cap! Personally, I think investment income should be subject to the S/S tax as well, but the top 1% would never sit still for that.
Look at it this way: It's likely that Republican Presidential candidate Mitt Romney pays zero S/S tax because he doesn't have "earned" income. His multi-millions are generated from investments #often in offshore bank accounts but I won't get into that#. Yet, I doubt that he will turn down his S/S benefit when he becomes eligible to collect.
#21 Posted by Elizabeth R, CJR on Mon 23 Apr 2012 at 06:13 AM
The wealthiest wage earners are not "exempt" from payroll taxes.
The wealthiest wage earners who pay the MOST in payroll taxes receive the LEAST amount of Social Security benefits paid by the Gubmint. Witness the REALITY:
Two twin brothers are born on 01/01/1945. Richie goes off to school and lands a great job at the age of 18, starting work on 01/01/1963 and earning the maximum contribution salary every year from then until he retires on 01/01/2011. He pays the max in payroll taxes in each of the 48 years he works,
Dopey stays at home, mooching of his parents for 10 years, finally taking a lousy job on 01/01/1973 that pays only a third of the maximum contribution amount, and continues earning only a third of the maximum contribution amount each year until he too retires on 01/01/2011. He pays only a third of what his brother pays each of the 37 years he works.
Richie's SS benefit?... $2346 Dopey's SS benefit?... $1257
So, Richie not only contributes THREE times what Dopey contributed to SS for the years 1973 to 2011, but Richie also pays the MAX into the system 10 years longer than Dopey, yet Dopey rakes in more than half the benefit that Richie gets.
This irrefutable little slice of reality can be verified here:
http://ssa.gov/retire2/AnypiaApplet.html
using the data posted here:
http://www.ssa.gov/OACT/COLA/cbb.html
#22 Posted by padikiller, CJR on Mon 23 Apr 2012 at 08:19 AM
To padkiller:
Interesting that you don't use actual dollar amounts. Brother 1 in your scenario has an income of $110,000. Brother 2, $37,000. You attribute brother 2's lesser income to laziness, I assume because you are unaware that the vast majority of available jobs in this country pay closer to brother 2's income. Society as we know it requires this - the 7/11 clerks and Wal-mart greeters don't make 6 figure salaries, and never will. Hard work (and nepotism, and silver spoons) aside, very few end up being the lucky duckies making 6 figures.
If both brothers pay the traditional 6% FICA tax, brother 1 makes 103,400 after FICA. Brother 2 makes 34,900 - not seeing the terrible burden for brother 1 here...
In terms of benefits, brother 2's $15,000 per year in retirement benefits is not a lot of income. You'd be happier if he only got 1/3 of brother 1's benefit, or $9,400? Problem with that is the brother 2 would get to live in poverty during his retirement, which defeats the entire purpose of the program..
It's all irrelevant, considering the easiest solution, raising the FICA cap wouldn't impact the "fairness" scenario you outline, but would mean both brothers get 100% of their benefits instead of only 75%.
Here's another scenario: person1 makes $220,000 and only pays FICA on half their income; person 2 makes $10,000,000 , all of it capital gains, and pays no FICA tax; person 3 makes under $50,000, the national average, and pays FICA tax on every dollar. How is that fair?
#23 Posted by Joe, CJR on Mon 23 Apr 2012 at 09:33 AM
Joe wrote: Here's another scenario: person1 makes $220,000 and only pays FICA on half their income; person 2 makes $10,000,000 , all of it capital gains, and pays no FICA tax; person 3 makes under $50,000, the national average, and pays FICA tax on every dollar. How is that fair?
padikiller responds: Because FICA stands for" Federal Insurance Contributions Act", that's why it's fair. It is INSURANCE.
Because the payroll taxes you pay (in theory) go to pay ONLY for INSURANCE benefits.
Think about it. What if Allstate were to come up with a great new auto insurance plan?
Nineteen year-old kids with two DUI's and two accidents on their records would pay only $50 a month for insurance, while 50 year-old drivers with crystal clean records would pay $500 a month for insurance. In between, the drivers who get the most in claims benefits (the ones with the worst records) would pay the least in premiums.
What would you say to such an insurance scheme?
Stupid, right? Of course it is.
Well, this is EXACTLY the stupidity that lefties want to see in Social Security insurance. They want the people who receive the least insurance benefits to pay the most in premiums.
So what the liberals really want is to transform Social Security from an insurance program into a welfare program... Fair enough... But wait!... Let's look at that.
Say a working mother of three cleans hotel rooms for a living and makes $25,000 a year. She's going to pay nearly $2000 a year in payroll taxes, and when she retires, she's going to get a crappy benefit of around $1000 per month (at the current rates).
Now say another lady, no kids, never worked a day in her life, has $5 million in the bank, lives on a gold course, has a chauffeur to drive her Rolls Royce, but was married to a rich and recently deceased doctor who paid the max into FICA contributions for 50 years. This lady is going to get her dead husband's money to the tune of more than $2 grand a month.
Now, Joe... WHERE is the justice in this "welfare" program? The cleaning lady's taxes going to pay the rich widow's unearned benefit?
THINK ABOUT IT.
#24 Posted by padikiller, CJR on Mon 23 Apr 2012 at 11:09 AM
I love how Richie can land a high paying job at 18, fresh out of high school.
Hey Richie, hope you speak spanish, because your job went to Mexico.
PS. "Dopey" likely worked a crap menial job which left him physically broke as well as financially broke, with the exception of the $1200 entitlement.
"Richie", assuming he's a rich lawyer asshole like padi, probably has decent physical health plus savings and pension income.
Therefore, you see a trend. A spreading 5 tp 6 year life expectancy gap has opened up between Richie and Dopey.
http://www.ssa.gov/policy/docs/workingpapers/wp108.html
Dopey has only 16 years after retirement to live, Richie had 21.5.
(Rich jobs are easier jobs + good healthcare costs money - twice as much in America than anywhere else comparable)
Which means it's best for poor people like Dopey to come up with a bipartisan compromise and find a way to raise the age of social security eligibility.
It really won't do having good programs helping people who need it.
#25 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Mon 23 Apr 2012 at 11:43 AM
Or as Petey Peteyson puts it:
http://www.theatlantic.com/past/politics/budget/facingf.htm
"We must invent a new entitlement system that will not just pay us affordable benefits when we need them but will also encourage us to save more for the future, care better for our own children and parents, and take more responsibility for our own health. As America itself grows old, perhaps the most vital changes in our entitlement system will be those that encourage a positive new vision of aging. Entitlements for the elderly must promote an active, economically self-sufficient lifestyle for elders who are able. We will no longer be able to afford a system that equates the last third or more of one's adult life with a publicly subsidized vacation."
You know, as Alan Simpson put it, "Stop yapping your lips and listen good. This commission might be packed with millionaires, but we're looking out for little people who need Social Security."
#26 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Mon 23 Apr 2012 at 12:00 PM
Maybe we should blow some dust off another article:
http://prospect.org/article/false-messiah-pete-petersons-revelations-are-not-gospel
#27 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Mon 23 Apr 2012 at 12:02 PM
If you want to see the future of low skills employment after mandatory crapsurance laws, google "RFOTA defense"
Single payer makes a lot more sense. mandatory low quality insurance will not only fail poor working Americans who get sick when they need it the most, dumping them because of obscene levels of 'cost sharing', *it will also make it completely legal to lay them all off*
#28 Posted by David Bury, CJR on Mon 23 Apr 2012 at 12:09 PM
Sorry, my mistake. Alan Simpson said:
http://www.cjr.org/campaign_desk/alan_simpson_does_it_again.php
“We’re trying to take care of the lesser people in society.”
Whoops on my part.
#29 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Mon 23 Apr 2012 at 02:11 PM
See?
Thimbles has to move the goalposts... He has to change the terms of my hypothetical to make his argument. He has to assume that the lazy twin dies sooner than they diligent one.
The funny thing is that in parroting a call for a "new entitlement system" Thimbles is acknowledging what I'm saying - that Social Security is unworkable in its present form.
But let's stick with the issue Joe raised... Namely the "fairness" of Social Security.
Again I ask you... Where is the justice in a welfare system that can take nearly $2000 in payroll taxes from a cleaning lady with three kids who earns $25000 a year who will end up with a retirement benefit of a little more than a $1000 a month, and uses the cleaning lady's money to pay more than $2000 a month in benefits to a rich millionaire who has never worked a day in her life?
How is this outcome "fair"?
HUH?..
And where is the justice in an insurance scheme that charges the highest premiums to the people who receive the least benefits?
How is this outcome "fair"?
HUH?..
No matter how you look at it, as an insurance program or as a welfare program, Social Security is unjust.
#30 Posted by padikiller, CJR on Mon 23 Apr 2012 at 02:28 PM
"Thimbles has to move the goalposts... He has to change the terms of my hypothetical to make his argument. He has to assume that the lazy twin dies sooner than they diligent one."
Boo fricken hoo. Is the point of your hypothetical to reflect reality or to make a crappy argument?
Because if it's to reflect general reality, then I helped you by refining your argument.
If it's to be a bad lawyer. or a paid troll, making dumb arguments on the internet, then I guess you've got a right to complain about me.
As I mentioned in the Alan Simpson thread:
"The discussion carried out today is not about the fairness of the program as it currently exists, it's about the stability of the program's fundamentals. This is where conservatives are at their most vile.
Reagan took a program, which was paying out year to year benefits based on year to year revenues, and changed it into a surplus generating fund. Conservatives then allocated the money from that fund towards government expenses that would normally have been paid for by income taxes. They then fought for tax cuts, under the cover of supply side economics, and replaced lost progressive tax revenue with increased regressive tax revenue.
So, in that sense, Social Security was a wealth transfer program from the dishwasher and restaurant, who have to pay 12% FICA, to the richest money makers who got tax cuts and pay less than their secretaries on their capital gains.
But that money was pledged, it was paid on the premise of a future service rendered, That money was allocated by conservatives, therefore the question we are debating is whether that money was borrowed or stolen. If it was borrowed, then the government has to pay it back by increasing tax revenues. If it was stolen, then the fund is empty and there are criminals at large in the government who stole it on behalf of the top 5% of income...
social security is meant to be a supplemental but let's not forget its fundamental concept, security. It is meant to be a guaranteed benefit that is independent of market performance and individual fallibility. You may not be able to count on your 401k, your employee benefits and pensions, the guesses of your broker, the value of your house, or your health, but you can count on social security.
So we should stop making false comparisons between market based retirement income and social security because they are fundamentally different - market based RI carries the potential of higher reward coupled with a higher risk of failure. Social Security, as designed today, does not fail so long as the money it has amassed is made available when it's required. This is what the real fight is about - who is going to pay back all that money we gave away in Reagan era / Bush era tax cuts? As I mentioned before, It's not going to be a huge amount of money:
http://www.cjr.org/campaign_desk/social_security_in_perspective.php
But people like Pete Peterson don't want to ever pay back their hard earned government bailouts...When people like that run amok, it is more important than ever to have a guaranteed security. Decide. Is social security, with all of it's faults and regressive funding, providing a service worth maintaining? Because, if it is, you are going to have to fight the cheap labor, greed is good, conservatives who want to destroy it."
#31 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Mon 23 Apr 2012 at 03:04 PM
You know you're scoring points when you get hit with the "paid troll" ad hominem nonsense.
While it is flattering that Thimbles considers my contributions here to warrant compensation, I am in fact a volunteer, and Thimbo is just talking out of his wazoo, as usual.
Once again...
How is it fair that a working parent of three loses 12 percent of her income to pay benefits of $2000 per month to a widow who never worked a day in her life?
HUH?
Crickets chirping... Chirpity derp derp.
#32 Posted by padikiller, CJR on Mon 23 Apr 2012 at 04:17 PM
Sorry, what was the point of making a hypothetical again? Because you seemed to have cowered away from giving an answer to that question.
Either you're trying to have a discussion or you're trying to decieve. If we're having a discussion, then your bogus complaint about 'goalposts' has no founding.
The FACT is your Dopey dies before your Richie. The FACT is the plans for social security only raise age eligibility, neutralizing any supposed benefits to contribution imbalance. The FACT is people like you got to pocket FICA revenues in the form of tax cuts and now people like you are scared of paying more if the payroll tax is uncapped, the DEATH TAX is reinstated, and taxes on marginal income are restored.
You had no problem when your class was taking all the money for the last 35 years, you have a problem now when it's time to pay some of it back.
You and yours are moochers, living off rents and subsidies while pocketing the proceeds of people who've worked harder than you and have less prospects than you in retirement.
That's the reality, you selfish little parasites of the vampire class.
#33 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Mon 23 Apr 2012 at 04:44 PM
PS.
"Once again...
How is it fair that a working parent of three loses 12 percent of her income to pay benefits of $2000 per month to a widow who never worked a day in her life?"
We've done this tango:
http://www.cjr.org/campaign_desk/the_human_faces_behind_the_soc.php#comment-52895
And it didn't fare well for you last time you xeroxed this argument.
Here's a revolutionary idea, try making a new argument! A good one would be such a welcome change.
#34 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Mon 23 Apr 2012 at 05:01 PM
I haven't received a response to my good old argument... Just your typical BS evasion and redirection.
When one of you daft lefties can explain to me (and to Joe) why you deem it "fair" that Social Security is set up so that a working parent of three can lose 12 percent of her income to pay benefits of $2000 per month to a wealthy widow who never worked a day in her life...
If and when one of you hypocritical lefties either comes up with a plausible defense of such a system (or summons the stones to admit that such a defense doesn't exist) I'll move on to a new argument...
I mean either you can defend this outcome (cleaning ladies paying taxes for benefits to wealthy benefit recipients) or you can't.
You can't credibly blame me for hammering away at your unwillingness to address my point, Thimbles. And you don't get to direct the tenor of the debate here, pal.
#35 Posted by padikiller, CJR on Mon 23 Apr 2012 at 09:20 PM
"I mean either you can defend this outcome (cleaning ladies paying taxes for benefits to wealthy benefit recipients) or you can't."
I did. Just because you lack the basic comprehension skills to get the defense doesn't mean the defense wasn't made.
"You can't credibly blame me for hammering away at your unwillingness to address my point, Thimbles."
What you're doing ain't hammering, it's just being a repetitive waste of time.
If you cared about the working parent mother of three, you would want her
a) to have all the social assistance she requires to raise healthy, well cared for, well educated children
b) contraception coverage without having to worry about being labeled a slut
c) a program to supplement her income when her body forces her to retire and she has to use government support to cover at least 50+% of her needs (like 63.9% of the elderly do) and likely 90+% of her needs (like 34.2% elderly do - some of whom might fit in the 3 kids, working parent category). She isn't paying for the old widow, she's paying for herself.
So "Yes, I believe the husband's contributions to the 2 trillion dollar surplus should be used to support his wife and I believe the cleaning lady's minimum wage contributions should be used to support her during her old age/disability. And I believe both should receive COLA adjustments to make sure the SSI is sufficient for the 63.9% who depend on it for most of their income."
Is that simple enough?
#36 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Mon 23 Apr 2012 at 09:55 PM
http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/04/09/socialsecuritymedicareandmedicaid-strikes-again/
"Robert Samuelson... pulls out, for the 7 millionth time, the old Social Security bait and switch. Here’s how it works: to make the quite mild financial shortfall of Social Security seem apocalyptic, the writer starts out by talking about Social Security, then starts using numbers that combine SS with the health care programs — programs that are very different in conception, financing, and solutions.
And then the writer ends by demanding that we cut Social Security, as opposed to addressing health care costs.
The serious (as opposed to Serious) thing to say here is that on current projections, Social Security faces a shortfall — NOT bankruptcy — a quarter of a century from now...
It’s also worth noting that even if the trust fund is exhausted and no other financing provided, Social Security will be able to pay about three-quarters of scheduled benefits, which would mean real benefits higher than it pays now...
[But what the very serious people want us to freak out about is]the dire fate we’re supposed to fear is that future benefits won’t be as high as scheduled; and in order to avert that fate we must, um, guarantee through immediate action that future benefits won’t be as high as scheduled. Yay! Wait, what?
No, really. I guess there would be some virtue to making this all crystal clear well in advance, but that’s pretty second-order. Basically, the “solution” just locks in the bad things for seniors that the attackers claim will happen anyway.
Now, here’s the thing: none of what I’m saying is new. We’ve gone over this ground again and again, ever since Bush the Younger tried to ram through privatization. Yet the same tricks, the same old discredited arguments, just keep coming back.
Why, you might almost think that the goal is just to undermine Social Security, using whatever argument seems handy."
Ya' think?
#37 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Mon 23 Apr 2012 at 10:20 PM
padikiller wrote: "I mean either you can defend this outcome (cleaning ladies paying taxes for benefits to wealthy benefit recipients) or you can't."
Thimbles prevaricates : I did.
padikiller responds: Sorry.. I must have missed it... A search of the thread doesn't find a response... Sorry.
Thimbles says that cleaning ladies paying taxes for Social Security benefits to wealthy benefit recipients who never worked a day in their lives is a fair outcome because "................................".
Can someone please fill in the blank for me so that I can, as Thimbles suggests, close out this argument?
Thanks.
#38 Posted by padikiller, CJR on Tue 24 Apr 2012 at 07:46 AM
Now HERE is the Real Deal.
What would you do if you wanted America to fail?
#39 Posted by padikiller, CJR on Tue 24 Apr 2012 at 09:11 AM
What do people think about the scientists at Google and elsewhere who say that by the middle of this century (at the latest) we will have machines that think, that are as smart as we are, and that those sentient machines will do ALL the scriptable work?
(this is called the technological "singularity", and its NOT debated IF it will happen, just WHEN.)
Will the new intelligent workers have to pay payroll taxes like we do? Or will we in the meat world all be unemployed and starving, being unemployable? (since we can't work 24 hours a day, 7 days a week)
#40 Posted by Mike, CJR on Tue 24 Apr 2012 at 10:46 AM
"Thimbles says that cleaning ladies paying taxes for Social Security benefits to wealthy benefit recipients who never worked a day in their lives is a fair outcome because..."
"She isn't paying for the old widow, she's paying for herself."
"Social Security, as designed today, does not fail so long as the money it has amassed is made available when it's required... the real fight is about - who is going to pay back all that money we gave away in Reagan era / Bush era tax cuts?"
"the same tricks, the same old discredited arguments, just keep coming back. Why, you might almost think that the goal is just to undermine Social Security, using whatever argument seems handy."
Ps I think it's great that you care about working mothers so much that you're willing to raise your taxes to pay for their daycare, improved schools, increased income and food supplements, cheaper and better quality public transit, public colleges offering cheaper education, healthcare and a dozen other things you must care about since you are so concerned about the working mom's welfare. I'm so glad you've evolved from calling her a slut to making her income and opportunities your concern. I'm sure with the more just income redistribution and welfare you are arguing for, her life and the lives of her children will be much improved.
#41 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Tue 24 Apr 2012 at 10:53 AM
"Thimbles says that cleaning ladies paying taxes for Social Security benefits to wealthy benefit recipients who never worked a day in their lives is a fair outcome because..." "She isn't paying for the old widow, she's paying for herself."
padikiller responds: Of course she is paying for the widow's benefits. So is every other working slob who pays payroll taxes.
Who is paying for the rich widows SS check, if the cleaning lady isn't (along with all other working Americans)?
Social security benefits are paid from payroll taxes, and the rich widow didn't payroll taxes. She didn't work a day in her life.
The money that pays her benefits comes from redeemed Social Security trust fund "securities" (IOU's) that are "purchased" directly from payroll taxes.
The CLEANING LADY'S PAYROLL TAXES (in part).
Thimbles' claim that the cleaning lady is paying for her own benefits is another leftist lie. In FACT her benefits are largely paid by high-income wage earners. The benefits paid to the high-income earners who pay the MOST in payroll taxes are reduced in order to pay more benefits to lower income earners.
REALITY BELL!
DING! DING!
#42 Posted by padikiller, CJR on Tue 24 Apr 2012 at 11:01 AM
The EU is focusing on smart, high value jobs, because the low end jobs, the ones that US politicians are counting on people working into their 70s in, are going away LONG before then. In fact, they are vanishing already.
How many of us have kids fresh out of college who can't seem to get the jobs they were trained for.
A lot.
Sooner than anyone realizes, because technology is changing very fast now, unemployment will be the norm, not employment.
Its like musical chairs, each time the music stops, there are a million less jobs to go around. And the remaining ones are being taken by workers who have the most skills - engineering, science, math.
(Often in other countries.)
Soon, it will be possible for workers who are physically elsewhere to work here via telepresence. Much sooner than machine intelligence.
So, for example, an Army surgeon will operate on a soldier in Iraq with massive injuries using a sophisticated high speed network controller, or, probably much more frequently, a worker 8000 miles away in Manilla will take orders from drivers over the netphone hookup at a drive through restaurant in Virginia and key those orders into the restaurant's network queue for the hamburger machine to make for them when they drive the 20 feet to the pick up window.
Or, a skilled technology worker here in the US, will be able to pursue their specialty wherever the jobs are *even if that is in India or China* *without leaving their home*
Most people will work from home. Highways will be empty except for autonomous vehicles (which will often contain people working just as they do at home.)
Its our choice. If we want our workers to have up-to-date skills, we need to stop bickering and buckle down.
We have to take all that money we are pumping into "our" military, to the tune of a million dollars a year per troop (read, corporate welfare) in Banana-stan or its equivalent and instead put it into making our country *really* stronger, curing chronic diseases, educating our young people.
Or, we are just giving up. We might as well be like those lemmings and "off ourselves".
(We can't eat bombs, by the way. And using them for any reason, would escalate rapidly with the result that the whole Earth would be rendered uninhabitable for everybody. Just look at the huge (and I do mean huge) cost of cleaning up the east coast of Northern Japan and the huge waste of large areas there, which otherwise will be uninhabitable for as long as a century while the radiation decays.
We should destroy our nuclear weapons, while we can. Even if its unilaterally.
#43 Posted by Val, CJR on Tue 24 Apr 2012 at 11:28 AM
A Congressional Budget Office (CBO) report (http://1.usa.gov/xpSWsj) examining the effects of gradually raising the eligibility ages for Medicare and Social Security is very timely. The CBO analysis finds that doing so would reduce federal spending on program benefits and encourage people to work longer. This in turn would grow the labor force and total economic output.
The CBO estimates the effects of raising Social Security’s early eligibility age (EEA) from 62 to 64 and normal retirement age (NRA) from 67 to 70. The idea of raising the EEA and NRA is not new, and it claims broader support than other reforms (http://bit.ly/ynZkoc).
#44 Posted by Carly EngageAmerica, CJR on Wed 25 Apr 2012 at 02:33 PM
The real problem with reporting about Social Security and Medicare is the media never interviews seniors who are on those programs. Only "consultants" or politicians or young spokesmen.. Where are the seniors?? I'm one and I cringe everytime one of those stories refers to Social Security as "entitlements." Yeah, I'm entitled....I paid into it for decades...but the term creates the impression that Social Security is welfare. And talk about the War on Women! Because women STILL earn less than men, we receive less Social Security funds. And poor women who are struggling to exist on Social Security....what happens to them if the politicos cut the meager amount they receive? Why doesn't the media interview seniors on Social Security about what it means to their lives? I'm beginning to thing the rerporters don't know anybody over the age of 30.
#45 Posted by Linda Hunt, CJR on Sat 26 May 2012 at 11:04 AM
As a retired journalist collecting Social Security I appreciated this article BUT I find the biggest problem with the coverage is no seniors on SS are ever interviewed. What does it mean to them? Do THEY think it should be cancelled or changed? And most importantly, WOMEN are going to be hurt most from any downsizing of the pitiful checks they receive much more than men since women STILL earn 80c on $1 and therefore get less Social Security benefits.
I cringe every time one of these "news" show guests (who all seem to be under 30) call it seniors' "entitlement". Like it's welfare.
I paid into it since I was 15 and my first summer job in high school. Yes I'm entitled. And you bet Washington is full of insurance company lobbyists who can't wait to get their greedy hands on all that Social Security and Medicare money. Where are the news stories about that?
#46 Posted by Linda Hunt, CJR on Sun 29 Jul 2012 at 11:35 AM