In the course of surfing the Web last week, you may have come across some polling data showing that large numbers of Republicans believe some pretty scary things about the president. The figures, provided by Harris Interactive, seem to have been first reported by Daily Beast contributor John Avlon in an item posted at midnight Tuesday. The story, titled “Scary New GOP Poll,” cited details including:
45 percent of Republicans (25 percent overall) agree with the Birthers in their belief that Obama was “not born in the United States and so is not eligible to be president”
38 percent of Republicans (20 percent overall) say that Obama is “doing many of the things that Hitler did”
Scariest of all, 24 percent of Republicans (14 percent overall) say that Obama “may be the Antichrist.”
Ok, maybe that last line is not meant to be taken seriously, but still, pretty crazy, right? And Avlon wrote that “the full results of the poll… are even more frightening.” But those results wouldn’t be available until Wednesday, meaning there was no way for readers to see them—and, more importantly, no way for skeptics to examine the poll’s methodology—as the early numbers filtered through the media.
But soon enough, the results did come out, and they were promptly and persuasively skewered by, among others, Gary Langer, the polling director for ABC News. Langer’s post clearly summarizes various shortcomings of the poll, from its approach to sampling to the way it persistently pushed respondents toward more extreme positions through “a highly manipulative approach to questionnaire design.” The obvious response is that, whatever the design, 14 percent of respondents really did say that Obama “may be the Antichrist.” But as Langer writes near his conclusion, good polling involves more than simply asking a question:
Unless carefully crafted, with balance and an approach that encourages due consideration and probes for meaning, simply asking the question can turn into little more than the old reporter’s trick of piping quotes. It’s a shopworn use of true/false and agree/disagree questions, one long overdue for retirement.
Langer’s post doubles as a helpful primer on polling methodology, but even for those not interested in the arcane, there were plenty of red flags here. As Avlon wrote in his item, the poll was “inspired in part by my new book Wingnuts.” (The full title is Wingnuts: How the Lunatic Fringe is Hijacking America.) While Avlon apparently did not pay for the poll, the opening of the Harris press release cited his book by name, and stipulated that the purpose of the poll was “to measure how many people are involved” with right-wing extremism.
It sounds not so different from a similar poll commissioned by Daily Kos founder Markos Moulitsas earlier this year, which, he wrote on his blog, was meant to provide support for “certain claims about Republicans” he was making in his book, American Taliban. (That poll, too, came under scrutiny from experts in the field: see here, here, and here.) Most inquiries begin with propositions to test, of course, but in these cases there seem to be clear incentives for all involved are to generate as many scary-sounding responses as possible. (Harris has responded to criticisms of its poll’s methodology, and the motivations behind it, in a Q&A at its site.)
What are the consequences of this? Well, for one thing it seems likely to, if anything, entrench the environment of “fear and hate” these writers are decrying: even as Avlon worries over “hyper-partisanship,” he’s feeding his readers tenuous numbers that give them permission to believe their worst fears about conservatives.
- 1
- 2
I'm sorry, but the tone of this piece is indicative of your, and cjr's, pro-Democrat left wing bias. Why do you people keep attacking the tea party movement like it's some sort of conspiracy tupperware party where people share strategies on how to hoard their guns? Can't you people be more fair and balanced like a professional news network?
Oh shoot. I read the piece. Please disregard the above and the comments that sound like the above.
#1 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Mon 29 Mar 2010 at 03:40 AM
WHAT ABOUT OBAMAS CZARS
#2 Posted by Hardrada, CJR on Mon 29 Mar 2010 at 03:57 AM
"In this case, we really are in a period in which conservative elites—both elected officials and members of the media—have been using inflammatory rhetoric. It’s reasonable to conclude that this rhetoric has contributed to the incidents of harassment and vandalism we’ve seen in the wake of the health-care vote."
I'm glad I know this fact now--wasn't sure I could think for myself, and to be honest, I'm kind of ready to move on to other topics--I keep hearing out of the corner of my ear about future increases in health care costs for a bunch of businesses and states, which is boggling my mind considering everyone knows the bill is going to cost negative $180 billion. And, I've also been a little skeptical of al couple things. Like how the lunatic was able to transport a brick through a 30th-floor window? And it's kind of weird that none of the lunatics got arrested. And I would think Congress would at the least investigate the incidents.
No matter, that's the beauty of cognition--as you guys know, we the public can exercise some confirmation bias too! I just did it actually--It's a fact in my book--the Republican "elites" are to blame for the face-spitting and the catapulting of the brick through an office window.
Thing is, surprisingly, my mind just keeps on going thought--there must be something deeper: vandalism is wrong and illegal, and because the Republican Elites (i.e., greedy rich people) caused the vandalism, then that means the Democrats are right and the health care bill is good. Which makes sense now that I think about it. Who in their right mind would not want someone else to get free health care?
#3 Posted by bustem, CJR on Mon 29 Mar 2010 at 05:37 AM
You might also add that it is conservative-leaning voters who are probed in the first place. Kooky attitudes on the Left are not as publicized, for reasons all too tired and obvious.
Republican voters are more likely to be seriously religious, but I believe an honest polling method would also show that Democratic voters are more likely to channel Shirley MacLaine-type New Agey mysticism, to believe in astrology, and so forth. The MSM gives great publicity to extreme 'birthers' on the Right, but not nearly so much to extreme 9/11 'truthers' on the Left - though the latter include many very prominent entertainment figures, such as the fragrant Rosie O'Donnell.
People on the Left have been suckers for conspiracy theories since the assassination of Kennedy, but I haven't seen much conspiracy-mongering about the two failed assassination attempts Wallace (1972), against Ford (1975), and Reagan (1981), because these were not politically liberal figures. The same double standard applies in the current hysteria about Republican protestors - you would never know that GOP congressmen get spat on, get nasty phone calls, get death threats, etc. In California after Proposition 8, gay groups explicitly targeted individual opponents for personal harassment, but the MSM chastely averted its eyes. Left-wing rioting in the 1960s was far more violent than anything the Tea Partiers have done, or even said - yet the perps of the former (one thinks of Bill Ayers) are excused by the MSM, and the rioting of that era is regarded as natural and inevitable and spontaneous. What tender little souls the MSM and liberals (pardon the overlap) are, getting all worried at a bunch of old folks shouting at their politicians.
#4 Posted by Mark Richard, CJR on Mon 29 Mar 2010 at 12:55 PM
"It’s reasonable to conclude that this rhetoric has contributed to the incidents of harassment and vandalism ..."
How ironic that in a post meant to expose tendentious polling, Marx would accept at face value tendentious reporting. Greg - How about following up on those reports of racial epithets and spat-upon lawmakers? Is it possible, in the YouTube age, that not one of the thousands of people at the Capitol was able to document these events, even the members of Congress who were carryng their own video cameras?
#5 Posted by JG, CJR on Mon 29 Mar 2010 at 01:15 PM
Sleazy, left-wing CJR's e-mail highlighting this story was headlined:
"A wingnut poll with problems/CJR"
Imagine if it had been headlined: "A loony, lefty poll with problems."
No, CJR plays for team Obama just like it had offices in the West Wing.
#6 Posted by Dan Gainor, CJR on Mon 29 Mar 2010 at 01:31 PM
This poll may be shaky, but in January the respected Field Poll found that only 42 percent of California Republicans said Obama was bornin ih the United States, 20 percent said he was not and 38 percent said they were not sure.
#7 Posted by Peter Schrag, CJR on Mon 29 Mar 2010 at 02:32 PM
Republicans are the only targets of these leading-question polls. Remembering that I once heard the novelist Anne Rice give the newly-elected Bill Clinton credit for metaphysically making the weather better in her region, I asked myself if a similar poll would show that mystical, New Agey, Shirley MacLaine beliefs in astrology, ESP, and reincarnation are more likely to be found among Democratic voters. (Especially in California.) But nobody in the MSM asks - gee, I wonder why.
I also wondered if the press hysteria about right-wing 'birthers' is matched by kookiness on the left among 9/11 'truthers', but, again, I don't see that polling comparison talked about much in the MSM. For an instructive contrast, compare the conspiracy theorizing surrounding the assassinations of the two Kennedys and Martin Luther King vs. the lack thereof concerning the shootings of or at Wallace, Ford, Reagan.
Now I'm told that the grannies and gramps cohort of the Tea Party movement are more violent than anyone on the left. We'll leave aside the uncomfortable detail that American-Islamic radicals actually killed a number of Americans here in the U.S. last year, and we were all soberly warned against generalizing from that circumstance and unfairly tarring harmless people. Groups from the left can visit violence on Seattle (the 1999 'Battle for Seattle' being celebrated currently by movie reviewers), they can smash windows at G-7 meetings in Pittsburgh, and raise all kinds of hell - but the MSM sees no pattern of 'vitriol' and 'incivility' there.
Panties only bunch up against Tea Party types, because, as political liberals, conventional journalists feel threatened by such groups, whereas left-wing groups are more or less on the same side as journalists - witness the whitewashing of Bill Ayers (remember him?) by the big news organizations in 2008.
Hell, I've been the object of a wish for my death or two myself, on these very CJR threads by some tolerant, compassionate progressives. Don't try to tell me that people on the left are just too darn nice to fight their opponents with the same weapons as they receive. After Prop. 8 in California, gay activists specifically targeted contributors to the opposition for personal, one-on-one harassment, but I missed that spate of MSM stories pressuring pro-gay marriage politicians to disavow such tactics, and worrying about 'incivility' brought to our politics by such zealotry.
What tender, sensitive souls liberals are, and no wonder the word 'liberal' is such a euphemism for 'wimp' in so many corners that Democrats still tend to shun the label. They cringe before angry-left groups, but get all brave and everything toward angry little old ladies and gentlement who take up political activism.
#8 Posted by Mark Richard, CJR on Mon 29 Mar 2010 at 03:21 PM
Sorry about the duplication in my two messages. It looked like the first had not been posted when I sent in the second.
#9 Posted by Mark Richard, CJR on Mon 29 Mar 2010 at 03:58 PM
I long for the day when reporters gave us the facts and did not have an agenda or a feeling that they had to interpret things for us. AP now runs stories that used to be labeled as analysis as news. I can observe all these things because I was a newspaper editor for 13 years. Journalism today is in a state of disgrace.
#10 Posted by Wolfithius, CJR on Mon 29 Mar 2010 at 04:01 PM
To Peter Schrag, have California Democrats been polled using questions that might make them look . . . odd? 'Conservative' groups are always treated like detached specimans to be analyzed, like Trobriand Islanders, by academics and journalists. But they understandably find it tough to bring exactly the same scrutiny to themselves and their political allies.
#11 Posted by Mark Richard, CJR on Mon 29 Mar 2010 at 04:05 PM
Look at all the pretty victims. If the left dared pull the garbage that the patriot, minutemen, tea party people regularly do, we'd be made into Code Pinkshirt caricatures in a heartbeat,
General Betray-us was too much for the respectable ears of the U.S. citizen once upon a time.
But, unlike the left for the last several decades, people have actual real reasons to fear unreasonable right wing idiots being violent because the right wing radio culture, including FOX, encouRAGEs it.
The left brings it down long before it gets to that. O'reilly sends attack producers to people's houses to shoot video that will be edited before it gets on air. The right has no problem visiting people's homes and forming a scientology like presence in front of people they disagree with. That's when they're not emailing death/rape threats and couriering bags of white powder to people's doorsteps.
Our guys pull anything close to that and they get condemned. BY US. We don't tolerate that garbage in our movements. Mike Stark did an attack video protest with signs warning people Bill was a sex offender (for the taped phone sex Bill liked to do with one of his employees) and he was named the worst person in the world by OLBERMAN.
We have mainly rare, violent, loners on the American left. The Unabomber in recent memory, hero to none.
When your guys stop shooting abortionists and stop getting road rage over bumper stickers and stop demonizing your opposition and stop yelling baby killer at people speaking on the floor of the house and stop mixing militant messages with political rhetoric and stop acting on those militant messages and violent rhetoric...
then you can play the pretty little victims. But that isn't your role since the tea party spring town hall fests we've all watched together.
You're not victims, you're bullies who are mad because you "lost my country" in what's known, in a functioning democracy, as an election.
Boo hoo. The left sucked up the crap of the radical right for eight long years with the knowledge that we had to be extra careful because a anti-bush t-shirt could get you arrested and bongo playing would be construed as violent protests requiring tear gas.
You don't deal with near the heat while, perhaps even because, you pack guns to your "DEATH TO OBAMAcare" protests.
You aren't victims, and there's a sizable section of you who are ignorant jerks. Stop it.
#12 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Mon 29 Mar 2010 at 05:31 PM
bustem:
What?
#13 Posted by larry, CJR on Mon 29 Mar 2010 at 07:14 PM
The Columbia Journalism Review ... another waste of precious electrons.
#14 Posted by SteveCan, CJR on Mon 29 Mar 2010 at 09:22 PM
I don't want people to get "free healthcare" when I'm the one that has to pay for my healthcare and yours too. What do you pay for?? You and most Democrats are welfare slugs, moochers that want the government to steal other peoples money for you. Get a job you lazy bum. You think moochers like you are justified to use violence to steal and assault and lie your lazy @sses off. It all depends on what side of the welfare check you are on doesn't it! I know what side of the check you are on, you lazy bum you
#15 Posted by nadadhimmi, CJR on Mon 29 Mar 2010 at 10:37 PM
In 1997 CNN did a poll which revealed 37% of people polled believed extraterrestrials had contacted the US government. In any poll a surprising number of people belive completely implausable things. Zogby polled Democrats and found 42% believed Bush knew about or caused 9/11. The irony there is most of them probably considered Bush a complete idiot, yet though he could pull something like that off, yet forgot to plant WMD in Iraq.
As for Obama doing many of the things Hitler did, Hitler gave speeches, Obama gives speeches, Hitler converted corporations to state-run entities; Hitler branded himself in a similar way that Obama did with a powerful graphic image, etc. He did some of the same things doesn't mean he is Hitler or anyone saying he did some of the same things means they believe Obama will start rounding up Jews or tea partiers any time soon.
#16 Posted by Gretchen, CJR on Mon 29 Mar 2010 at 10:38 PM
...and then there's this:
http://pajamasmedia.com/zombie/2010/03/29/searchlight-vs-l-a-rival-rallies-reveal-stark-rightleft-divide/?singlepage=true
Yeesh, who are the "haters" again.
#17 Posted by Gretchen, CJR on Tue 30 Mar 2010 at 12:17 AM
Ok, I can appreciate the writers attempt to right a record here, but I have to agree with some of the posters above. "In this case, we really are in a period in which conservative elites—both elected officials and members of the media—have been using inflammatory rhetoric. It’s reasonable to conclude that this rhetoric has contributed to the incidents of harassment and vandalism we’ve seen in the wake of the health-care vote." There are two things in this statement alone of which no proof is given. It comes across with the tine that "everybody knows they've been using inflammatory rhetoric", yet no specific examples are given at all. Also, many of the incidents of harassment and vandalism have been proven false yet that is never mentioned. For the things that have happened, for some reason reporters have been acting like only Democrats get death threats (and I'm not even sure what vandalism they are referring to, but I'll grant I could have missed something in the news). The only specific example I have heard of actual violence was a gunshot through a Republican Congressman's office window, and the childish egg throwing of Harry Reid supporters. Large Conservative gatherings in DC or anywhere else do not have a history of becoming riots and mobs like leftists protests (World Trade Organization, G-8, or practically any student protest in CA anyone?). That being said, any conservative who does make death threats, or breaks the law should be punished like anyone else, but stop this pretending like any minute they're going to start gunning people down in the streets because it's not supported by any historical evidence.
#18 Posted by paulbhm, CJR on Tue 30 Mar 2010 at 12:54 AM
First of all, although I would like to avoid starting with a contentious statement, I must say that it has been my firm opinion for several years, based upon many readings of on-line articles in the CJR, that the great majority of materials it publishes are unmistakenly shot through with pro-liberal, pro-Democrat bias.
The weak broth that Mr. Marx here presents as fair minded criticism of a poll, the results of which appear to be on a par with a hypothetical one in which one would find that 64% of Democrats say they are sympathetic to the Devil and believe that Ronald Regan was responsible for JFK's assasination, are a pathetic gesture towards objectiivity. These poll results are, on their face, preposterous, and it is quite transparent to anyone other than a very naive or very manipulative (or both) far left idealogue that they cannot possibly be true. Only an academic or a member of the "elite" coastal-based MSM could possibly have so little experience with the real opinions of ordinary Americans that they could ever seriously entertain the notion that this poll wasn't either a satire, purposely badly sampled and "pushed" to a remarkable degree, or just plain made up. And then, even given the rather tepid nature of the criticism brought forth by Mr. Marx, he seems to feel the need to re-establish his bonafides as a left leaning Obamanaut by offering this wholly unsupported beauty, to be accepted on his readers' faith: "In this case, we really are in a period in which conservative elites—both elected officials and members of the media—have been using inflammatory rhetoric. It’s reasonable to conclude that this rhetoric has contributed to the incidents of harassment and vandalism we’ve seen in the wake of the health-care vote."
Good grief. Talking points mistaken for reporting with supported facts. Nice try anyway. You'll have to do a great deal better than this to be seen as fair minded by anyone inhabiting the ordinary opinions of citizens found West of Manhattan and East of LA.
#19 Posted by dafranklin, CJR on Tue 30 Mar 2010 at 01:11 AM
Hey Harada,
Why is it that "Elites" and "conservative" are conjucted? Do you even know that the farthest left in this country, George Soros is the most Elite of Elites? How many millionairs are Democrat? well, look into it. the majority, especially the idiots in Hollywood are millionairs and as left as possible.
I love how you lemmings follow the "media". Did you see the tape of the "spitting" incident? I guess not because as you copuld have seen, you know, the TRUTH ON TAPE, it was a man cupping his mouth and yelling down the distinguished racist who calls himself a congressman. Did he come on the "media" and say he got spit on? NO,
Ddid you see that Jessie Jackson Jr. was walking very close behind Nan and her minions filming the entire parade that took the walk (why did they do that I wonder? To entice yelling so they could turn it on the protesters? HMMM) in the face of regular people who DO NOT WANT THE COUNTRY TO BECOME MORE ENTITLEMENT ESTABLISHMENT?
The problem with your ilk is that you do not believe in free speach, you only believe in "your speach". Why is it that you do not call the Code Pink, or the eco terrorists, you know, the ones who BURN DOWN HOUSES. Or why don't you condem the protesters who invaded the private homes of exeutives and threw epitaths and thier children?
Please answer me, because you liberals are so high and mighty but when faced with facts, you can call me a racist, homophobe, right wing imperialist.
Oh by the way, I am a conservative Christian White Male, the only minority that can be bashed and has not right to say anything about the bashing.
#20 Posted by David, CJR on Tue 30 Mar 2010 at 12:08 PM
Thimbles,
You are just an idiot. Unfortunately, you think you are smart. Why is it that you are still talking about Iraq when your president just went to Afganistan and told the troops over there to die some more and that we will never quit?
OHHH
I lived through the 60's and what the tea party members are doing today is the same thing that the vietnam war protesters were doing except spitting in the faces of young men who were coming home from War. Did you hear about the family who was trying to bury thier child who YOUR PRESIDENT KILLED IN AFGANISTAN, (look familiar?) Yes, they were protesting the war and disturbing the pain and the actual buryal service. Now, tell me that My yellig and holding a sign that says I LOVE MY COUNTRY AND DO NOT WANT IT DISTROYED" equates to that HUH?
#21 Posted by David, CJR on Tue 30 Mar 2010 at 12:22 PM
So much of the news is news organizations doing polling to create a news story and push an agenda. No longer do they commission a poll to actually find out what people think about a particular issue. They are trying to sway public opinion and do so with carefully worded and constructed polls. The best thing to do is refuse to answer, which more and more people are doing, or LIE.
#22 Posted by JeffT, CJR on Tue 30 Mar 2010 at 02:27 PM
"From a media perspective, meanwhile, the existence of these polls makes it harder to communicate good information."
I think I see your problem. You seem to be under the delusion that the media consider "good information" to be characterized by accuracy and objectivity.
That is blatantly false... as far as I can tell, the overwhelming majority of so-called "journalists" consider "good information" to be items which they can use to attack conservatives, and still be able to present a defense of plausible deniability.
#23 Posted by malclave, CJR on Tue 30 Mar 2010 at 03:46 PM
Bullies? I despise bullies, and in grand scheme of things, it's the left-wingers in America who are bullies. Every time a conservative approaches mainstream success, they are smeared as dumb, racist, evil, etc. George W. Bush. Sarah Palin. Glenn Beck. "Teabaggers." For Pete's sake, progressives are so petty, Glenn Beck is mocked for crying. No one on the right with any influence: Beck, Palin, Limbaugh, condones political violence or racism. Nor do they cynically excuse it as a response to extreme social injustice. Bullies always pick on the unpopular kids, the ones everyone make fun of, because bullies are also cowards. To a bully, espousing conservative principles and being falsely accused of racism is much less appealing than attaching one's self to left-wing politics where your peers will applaud you for fecklessly tossing around charges of racism, fearmongering, homophobia, etc.
#24 Posted by Afghan Whig, CJR on Tue 30 Mar 2010 at 04:50 PM
"It’s reasonable to conclude that this rhetoric has contributed to the incidents of harassment and vandalism we’ve seen in the wake of the health-care vote. For a number of reasons, it would be journalistically valuable to try to deduce the broader state of opinion among conservative voters, and both polling and old-fashioned reporting can play a role in that process.""
No, it is NOT reasonable to conclude that. In order to conclude such a thing, you would have to provide some proof of causation between the rhetoric and the acts. Neither you or anyone else has done so.
#25 Posted by akw, CJR on Tue 30 Mar 2010 at 05:52 PM
we really are in a period in which conservative elites—both elected officials and members of the media—have been using inflammatory rhetoric. It’s reasonable to conclude that this rhetoric has contributed to the incidents of harassment and vandalism we’ve seen in the wake of the health-care vote. For a number of reasons, it would be journalistically valuable to try to deduce the broader state of opinion among conservative voters, and both polling and old-fashioned reporting can play a role in that process.
It's tempting to question why this passage includes the label 'conservative' but omits 'liberal' or 'progressive': Has anybody among the "non-conservative media elite" yet asked whether the harassment and vandalism against Republicans and conservatives (bricks through windows, gunshots fired, etc.) is related to the inflammatory rhetoric by the progressive media and political elites? (Yes, that's a rhetorical question, designed to separate the libs from the cons ;-)
But in view of the rational questions this article asks and the thoughtful analysis it makes of polling trickery, let's transcend that part of the argument (as well as Thimbles's straw man comment). This article reveals extremely important points about opinion polls. For far too long political opinion in the US has been more created than measured by these manipulative "surveys".
Good job Greg!
#26 Posted by TeaParty Fanboy, CJR on Tue 30 Mar 2010 at 09:58 PM
Let's get something straight here.
"You are an idiot fascist who hates puppies and stomps on Iraqi children" is overblown, but it isn't bullying.
"You idiot marxists better watch your back because I don't like what you say and I have a Browning in my pocket."
is.
Throwing bricks through windows is. Taking guns to protests in front of the people your protesting is. Making hardly veiled threats of violence and death is.
There's a difference between expressing a belief and expressing a threat or committing a violent action based on a belief. Those who do the later are bullying.
And you cannot support bullying and still decry William Antichrist Ayers since the acts he committed and the acts these militia guys both commit and threaten to commit are not different.
Only the beliefs are different.
And in America differences in belief are tolerated.
What isn't tolerated is violence, implied or otherwise, based on belief.
And when your side engages in that crap, you can't pirouette and claim, "Oh golly gee, why am I a victim? The left shot people too in 1967, why is it only the right who gets attacked. Boo hoo."
Four words. Oklahoma. One president ago.
#27 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Wed 31 Mar 2010 at 03:40 AM
Two presidents ago.
#28 Posted by padikiller, CJR on Wed 31 Mar 2010 at 09:02 AM
Oh, so you guys are counting Obama now. Progress!
#29 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Wed 31 Mar 2010 at 01:36 PM
To my old friend Thimbles, there were extremely energetic attempst to link Timorthy McVeigh with right wing groups, but they failed, as even the liberal New Yorker conceded after the Oklahoma City trials were completed.
McVeigh certainly affected an anti-government view usually, and somewhat lazily, associated with 'the right' - the same was the Unabomber expressed anarchic environmental views in his manifesto that were praised by 'the Left', too. McVeigh's highest-profile supporter, in the pages of the liberal-chic 'Vanity Fair', was the gay leftist novelist Gore Vidal, still a revered figure on the Left in spite of his own 9/11 truther beliefs in his dotage.
Plenty of people on the free-thinking 'Left' are anti-government for the good leftist reason that they think the government and big corporations are about the same thing . . . they hate all 'bigness'. After the Oklahoma City bombing - BTW, did you know that Oklahoma is one of the most Republican states in the country? - one clueless editorial cartoonist, obediant to the talking points of the White House, drew a parody of the famous photograph of the firefighter cradling the wounded baby in Oklahoma City, with him thinking in a cartoon bubble 'Damn talk radio'. Turns out that the firefighter was a Limbaugh fan. Turns out also that McVeigh never listened to talk radio or conservative groups. As an example of liberal-media cluelessness about 'the Right', that one will do as well as any. I'm old enough to remember when the immediate reaction of the MSM to the Kennedy assassination was to think, or make that hope, that a Bircher had done it, instead of the leftist schnook who actuall did so. There was no widespread tarring of 'the Left' that I saw. In the face of reality (Islamic militants, urban ethnic street gangs, campus-based leftists), the poor dumb media mentality must hold that it is conservative groups and only conservative groups who engage in 'vile' rhetoric and take 'direct action' against political opponents. As Chico Marx once said in another context, 'Who are you going to believe, me or your own eyes?'
#30 Posted by Mark Richard, CJR on Wed 31 Mar 2010 at 05:21 PM
Re: Posted by Thimbles on Wed 31 Mar 2010 at 03:40 AM
Hmm.
What about the recent Obama donor arrested for shooting at a Republican's office... was that bullying?
How about when Obama called out the unions to respond to the town hall protests, and Gladney ended up being attacked? Was that bullying? Do the racial slurs directed at him matter?
#31 Posted by malclave, CJR on Wed 31 Mar 2010 at 06:33 PM
Mark. Mark Mark Mark. Come on.
You can make the argument he wasn't part of the republican right wing, just as I claim the unabomber and William Ayers wasn't part of the democratic left wing in his terrorist days, but you cannot claim Timmy McVeigh wasn't acting based on an anti-government right wing ideology just I I can't claim the Unabomber wasn't left.
And there is more in common between the tea party movement and the milita patriot movements of the Clinton years, in rhetoric as well as in the people involved, then there is with the relatively responsible republicans of years and years past.
And when it comes to the level of violence and rhetoric, the left polices itself while the right nurtures it, while saying a word or two between inflammatory rhetoric that "we shouldn't literally go to the politicians' houses, drag them out, and beat them with hoses. It's a METAPHOR." so they can have an excuse when the violence comes.
Here is how policing is actually done by responsible people.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJk7HnPTNXo
"Yelling at Karl Rove is too much."
You guys on the right don't police your crazies, and the penalty for not doing so is that you get associated with crazy behavior. If you've made that choice, then suck it up and accept it OR make it clear that the violent behavior is something you do not accept or condone from your leaders and their followers. Either accept the association or reject and denounce the people responsible.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sHEyCnj0vMw
#32 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Thu 1 Apr 2010 at 12:16 AM
After reading this liberal trash it is easy to see why the liberal media is imploding. One thing for sure, this article makes it easy to spot an article that was written by a Columbia journalism student.
This journal is pathetic.
#33 Posted by Big M, CJR on Thu 1 Apr 2010 at 12:36 AM
The left are the world's greatest hypocrites built on their 'glorious' and violent history of the 60s, not to mention their de-humanization of Bush which was all about shameless, personal attacks, stopping people from speaking at universities etc, rude petitioning and the like, and of course William Ayers and other liberals who have been so indoctrinated with their own propaganda that the US is evil, anyone against them is evil, and that as the 'good' ones, anything, including violence goes, that it is astounding to hear them with their 'contrived' outrage etc. Its self-righteous 'people power!!' when they show their disgusting hatred for Bush, Palin, or what have you, but OMG!! gasps when people demonstrate against them. A few months after 53% of American elected Obama and gave him 70% approval ratings, liberals were calling anyone having problems with the President a racist (does that include all the 'red necks' in Massachusetts, the Independents who live to regret voting for Obama, and conservative democrats?..hmmm) Make no mistake about how liberals think - anyone against them is stupid; they clearly are the ones doing what is best for people and the nation; hence anyone against them is evil, and should be shut up or put away, ala their left wing counterparts in Venezuela today, or the USSR in the past. Under the pretense of doing the 'people's work,' they usurp more power, quell dissent, demonize opposition, and live, breath, and die by the belief, 'by any means necessary.' We know, anyone against them is a 'first rate gun toting, racist, bigot, neocon idiot, period!' This is how they think, pure contempt for dissent, which leads to today, branding anyone and everyone who doesn't bow down before them a violent racist hater, all the while gleefully forgetting that they are truly the most intolerant, unapologetically violent, pedantic, and power flexing people around. Nice to see the nation has been for 1+ years diametrically opposed to them, there indeed still is hope, and eventually there will be change.
#34 Posted by ViperMD, CJR on Thu 1 Apr 2010 at 09:20 AM
Using Google site search found: 122 hits for "liberal democrat" and 194 hits for "conservative republican". While not perfect it's a reasonable indicator that the CJR believes being a "liberal democrat" is more the norm, in a center-right country no less.
#35 Posted by Fred Garvin, CJR on Thu 1 Apr 2010 at 12:50 PM
"we really are in a period in which conservative elites—both elected officials and members of the media—have been using inflammatory rhetoric. It’s reasonable to conclude that this rhetoric has contributed to the incidents of harassment and vandalism we’ve seen in the wake of the health-care vote."
Correct me if I am wrong, but the only person I know of who has been arrested and charged with a crime was the individual who took a shot at REPUBLICAN Weiner's headquarters.
#36 Posted by Richard Barbazette, CJR on Thu 1 Apr 2010 at 01:25 PM
One more time for the really slow snake doctors around here.
"Obama wasn't even born in America and his ACORN buddies got him elected to make christian babies study the Koran so they can set up a Karl Marx Americaliphate and move real Americans to Killing Field Fema Camps," is overblown, but it's not bullying.
Bullying is "Don't you dare talk crap about our president, you unpatriotic terrorist lover, because I will put my American made boots up your Allah loving fundament and make you sorry you ever bad mouthed God's country." is bullying.
Simple concept. Should not be hard to understand.
#37 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Thu 1 Apr 2010 at 02:11 PM
geez, take a chill pill. I joke around and call him Maobama. If a pollster asked me if I think he's a Maoist, I would say yes.
Of course I don't believe it, it's called having fun, exaggerating.
However, I do believe he is a socialist that has never worked at a real private sector job in his live. And that is why I don't think he is a good president.
#38 Posted by Jack, CJR on Thu 1 Apr 2010 at 03:18 PM
To bad there wasn't a similar pol of Middle East Muslims. I suspect 45 percent of Muslims would think the President is an apostate Muslim.
I suspect 88 percent of Muslims would say that Obama is doing many of the same things that Bush did.
Scariest of all, 24 percent of Muslims would probably say that Obama is an infidel and that jihad is legitimate.
#39 Posted by don, CJR on Thu 1 Apr 2010 at 04:12 PM
Isn't this adorable?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ani93EHvXcE
go fast forward to 7:45 if you want to skip 7 and a half minutes of republicans counting talking points on their hands.
Shawn Hannity: "Thumb? Fiscal Responsibility. Index finger? Liberty. Middle finger? The will of the American people..." and so on.
But yeah, Fox News talking head Shawn Hannity uses Tim McVeigh-wannbe as a description of the tea baggers... as a compliment.
Mainstream conservatism is off the f'in rails. David "axis of evil" Frum isn't radical enough for the movement anymore. Timothy McVeigh is more welcome than David Frum.
Fix your goddamn movement, unless you want to be known as terrorist wannabes.
#40 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Thu 1 Apr 2010 at 11:36 PM
Wow, Rachel Maddow, who's a pretty darn good journalist and opinionator, showing that those roles are not mutually exclusive, hits my two major points which I cover here and in this thread:
http://www.cjr.org/cover_story/dumb_like_a_fox.php
If the right wants to be taken seriously as a responsible party in the political system, it has to a) stop lying constantly while pretending no one will notice or catch them. This also means stop being hypocrites and cynical obstructionists who ranted and raved about "nuclear options" and fired senate parliamentarians when the jackboot was on the other foot and the resistance was half as much.
b) stop using threats unrelated to political process ie: riots and rifles
especially when the policies discussed are weak reforms that conservatives supported pre Obama and post Bush circumstances necessitate.
Here's her take on it:
http://videocafe.crooksandliars.com/heather/rachel-maddow-calls-bull-pucky-fake-republ
About fricken time someone in the media talked about this. The psychosis of most media is that of an intimidated institution afraid to confront right wing bullying tactics. It's a godsend to have a rational personality doing the necessary push back against the republican hissy fit.
#41 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Sun 4 Apr 2010 at 06:07 AM
The only documented death threat made so far (to my knowledge) has been one made by an Obama contributor against a Republican congressman here in Virginia.
The "crazy right wing" schtick is nothing but a liberal fairy tale. Sure there are kooks in the right wing, just as there are kooks on the left.
But the Tea Party movement cannot seriously be characterized as a violent movement.
#42 Posted by padikiller, CJR on Mon 5 Apr 2010 at 02:05 PM
To busten:
""In this case, we really are in a period in which conservative elites—both elected officials and members of the media—have been using inflammatory rhetoric. It’s reasonable to conclude that this rhetoric has contributed to the incidents of harassment and vandalism we’ve seen in the wake of the health-care vote."
I'm glad I know this fact now--wasn't sure I could think for myself, and "
A point you prove very well below.
"to be honest, I'm kind of ready to move on to other topics--I keep hearing out of the corner of my ear about future increases in health care costs for a bunch of businesses and states,"
Health care costs, which have gone from 13% GDP when Bush took office to 15% GDP in 2005 to 17.5% GDP now, and to 20% GDP in the next few years are going to increase for all of us. Compare that to 12% GDP for the industrial world's most expensive national health care. The difference would be $1trillion/yr for us. Not 10 years, one year.
Then you read about caterpillar claiming a $100 billion cost, and AT&T claiming a $1billion cost, but not till later did it come out that's the loss of a tax deduction on costs they didn't even pay. IOW a govt subsidy on a govt subsidy. Which does qualify as socialism by any standard the right seems to recognize.
"which is boggling my mind considering everyone knows the bill is going to cost negative $180 billion."
A cost of negative $18 billion is a surplus. You aren't good at math either are you?
" And, I've also been a little skeptical of al couple things. Like how the lunatic was able to transport a brick through a 30th-floor window?"
They really are thinking for you. A newspaper in Seattle reported someone threw a brick through the window of a congressman's office, in Cincinnati. The Cincinnati media correctly reported someone threw a brick through the window of a democratic party office in Cincinnati and someone cut a propane line at the home of the congressman's brother. The Seattle soon after admitted they confused the two, but the right latched onto that as the current wingnut fraud.
" And it's kind of weird that none of the lunatics got arrested. And I would think Congress would at the least investigate the incidents."
You think congress can investigate criminal actions better than the police? You think the police have some magical method to devine the identity of vandals? A brick has a rough surface that won't take fingerprints well. Nobody was keeping watch over a congressman's brother's house. Except the wingnuts after a right wing blogger gave his address as the congressman's.
No matter, that's the beauty of cognition--as you guys know, we the public can exercise some confirmation bias too! I just did it actually--It's a fact in my book--the Republican "elites" are to blame for the face-spitting and the catapulting of the brick through an office window.
Yes. they are. The instigated those acts of terrorism as much as the blind sheik instigated the first WTC attack. The scale is different, the intent the same.
"Thing is, surprisingly, my mind just keeps on going thought--there must be something deeper: vandalism is wrong and illegal, and because the Republican Elites (i.e., greedy rich people) caused the vandalism, then that means the Democrats are right and the health care bill is good."
That part is right. Ok the health care bill needs a lot of fine tuning. The cost of health care has to come down.
" Which makes sense now that I think about it. Who in their right mind would not want someone else to get free health care?"
And you reveal you know nothing about the health care bill. The people who get free health care are already getting it. Those who will get health care under this bill are overwhelming working people who don't have insurance. And they will get insurance, from the private sector. Some will get
#43 Posted by bob from district 9, CJR on Wed 7 Apr 2010 at 12:55 PM
Reply to "Posted by nadadhimmi on Mon 29 Mar 2010 at 10:37 PM"
"I don't want people to get "free healthcare" when I'm the one that has to pay for my healthcare and yours too."
Do you pay for your health care? Or does your employer. Either way, unless you have a printing press in your basement *WE* are paying for your health care.
" What do you pay for?? You and most Democrats are welfare slugs, moochers that want the government to steal other peoples money for you. Get a job you lazy bum."
Well, having been in the workforce pushing 45 years, and earning more in my income alone than the average family in this country, thereby, statistically, probably more than you, I pay for quite a bit.
"It all depends on what side of the welfare check you are on doesn't it! I know what side of the check you are on, you lazy bum you"
You are more likely to draw welfare than I am, and I am likely to pay for your welfare.
Welfare check recipients were less than 1% of the population before Bush took office, don't know what it is now, probably way up. Around 50% of the population voted democratic in the last presidential election. IOW, 98% of Obama voters not on welfare, minimum since fewer welfare recipients vote than other Americans.
Oh, and more elderly are conservative, therefore more living off the govt. And more getting govt health care. So, if you oppose socialistic health care, start a campaign to abolish medicare.
#44 Posted by bob from district 9, CJR on Wed 7 Apr 2010 at 01:21 PM