It was so corrupt that Hamas was able to run on the ticket of anti-corruption, working amongst the grassroots of Palestinian society, delivering at a grassroots level, and earning political credibility not just in terms of handing stuff out, but also in terms of being disciplined, being controlled, being articulate, and standing up, and being seen to stand up for Palestinians when nobody else would.
KB: How should we reconcile Hamas as a force for change with the organization’s history of violence.
PM: Let’s not be churlish about this, call it terrorism. Rather than describe Hamas as a terrorist group, I would say they’re a group that uses terror as a weapon and I think there’s a significant difference there. You’ll find a lot of Israeli commentators, amongst others, can understand and make in their writing. There is a difference there.
But the Palestinian attitude to terror as a weapon is dictated by their sense of the ability to achieve a settlement. If they think there’s a chance that there can be a negotiated settlement, as they did in the aftermath of the Oslo accords in the mid-1990s, their view of violence falls. But it’s when they see their land being taken, when they see their water resources being consumed, when they see Gaza being converted into a prison, they believe in violence. It’s a part of the world where all sides are very familiar with the notion of revenge and vengeance.
One of the kernel issues in the Gaza crisis at the moment is the fact that Gilad Shalit, the Israeli corporal, is a prisoner of Hamas in Gaza. Palestinians laugh when they read or hear that Israel is going to war for one man when there are 11,000 Palestinian prisoners in Israeli jails. They understand they’re at war. Now how that plays out after this latest round in Gaza, we have yet to see, in terms of public and Palestinian opinion and attitudes to Hamas. They’re going to make a call on whether Hamas overplayed its hand. They’re going to make calls about the standing of Hamas vis-a-vis the standing of Hezbollah after the war in Lebanon in 2006. And that will feed into the political mix of the region.
KB: How should journalists balance these two aspects of the organization to help readers understand?
PM: It’s very difficult, in the helter-skelter, daily evolution of a story like this, to pull in all the relevant bits. And it’s very hard to pull them in particularly, as I said, when the parameters of the narrative are being constructed by the key players, be it the Palestinian leadership, be it the Israeli leadership, be it the regional heavyweights like Egypt, or be it Washington for that matter.
So what you have to be able to do is take the eyes of the big-picture story and be able to infer it, use them as counterpoints in writing. If you tell a foreign readership that this poor soldier is being held in Gaza and he’s been held for years, isn’t this shocking? It is shocking. But is it more or less shocking than the plight or circumstances of the 11,000 Palestinians who are being held in Israeli prisons?
KB: So, how should they describe those individuals? Are they civilian members of Hamas or militants?
PM: Half the elected Hamas government is in prison. So there are Hamas prisoners, there are Hamas sympathizers, there are Hamas militants. You name it, there is every range of them. They’re not all entirely Hamas, but there is a good number of Hamas representatives of the other Palestinian factions and also of Fatah. But every time Israel feels that it needs to make a gesture to the Fatah leadership, what they do is they release a handful of Fatah prisoners—never Hamas prisoners.
KB: My sense has been that everyone who is identified as a member of Hamas is automatically categorized as a member of the militant arm of the organization, as opposed to people who might be part of the public service branch.
PM: That’s very true. In the writing of the narrative, the objective of the spin on all sides is to cast the other side in simple, bad terms. Make it all black, make it all white, try to airbrush out the gray. Now there’s a lot of gray that has to be dealt with and has to be considered.
Look at some of the names of the people who before and after the recent Gaza crisis have said that Hamas has to be allowed a seat at the table, Hamas had to be brought into the negotiating process. You’re talking about people like Efraim Halevy, former head of Mossad. Not a fly-by-night or a shallow man. He makes a very clear and careful distinction between Hamas as national patriots, as opposed to an Al Qaeda-type terrorist group. People like Tony Blair this week, people like Colin Powell before this whole crisis, people like Prince prince Turki Al-Faisal, former head of Saudi intelligence, who is not a lightweight in the region.
These are people, and I’m giving you names from all sides there, who have weight and reputation and savvy in their sense of what’s happening on the ground or what needs to happen. But one of the things that has happened in the Middle East for the last sixty years is that people have been talking about what has to happen, and nobody has ever made it happen.
KB: What is the conversation like in Australia?





A thought provoking piece, thank you. And thank you for the links. Will be clicking on all of them once I get home from work :-)
nb - The link to this article from your Home page does not work.
Posted by sdr19899 on Wed 11 Feb 2009 at 02:21 PM
Fixed!
Posted by Justin Peters on Wed 11 Feb 2009 at 03:24 PM
The author tells us that Hamas is not a terrorist group but uses terror as a weapon. He tells us that Hamas recognizes Israel and gives several proofs.
The proof is that rather than wage peace Hamas continually wages war against the State of Israel. The idea of resistance is the metaphor Hamas uses and resistance is sending rockets raining down on Israeli villages and towns.
The Israeli story is not being clearly represented in this journalists account of the story. Surely, the use of local ‘stringers’ as photographers, translators, et al is a very fraught with problems. How can this journalist gain insight into the minds of the Gazans, when his interpreter may be a Hamas-man? The Gazans have no way to express their own free opinions due to Hamas’ oppressive control.
Democracy does not simply mean elections but democratic institutions of state. Where are these institutions? Justice/Courts and Police to name just two.
This journalist should be more critical of his sources. Get the low down on the Gazans true feelings … beliefs … ‘the struggle’. We frame the problem in Hamas/Israel, Fatah/Israel, Hamas/Fatah/Israel. What’s been highjacked is the Palestinians and their own ownership of the Middle East problem.
Posted by tzatz on Wed 11 Feb 2009 at 05:01 PM
I do not see why suicide bombing, insurgency, rocket attacks, armed conflicts, air assaults, ground assaults, etc. cannot all simply be called "war".
Hamas can be described as an organization that currently governs Gaza and has been engaged in an intermittent war with Israel for many years. Details of the tactics employed by the sides in this war may or may not be important to mention depending on the focus of the article. But I don't see why it is necessary to put each belligerent into a separate category based on the tactics they choose.
If Israel decided its best strategy was to plant hidden bombs at random locations in Palestinian towns and set them off by remote control, we could reasonably call this terrorism, but would we then have to call the IDF "a terrorist organization"? That would be ridiculous. Terrorism is not an ideology; it's just another tactic of war.
Posted by DB on Wed 11 Feb 2009 at 06:50 PM
Paul McGeough is an extraordinary journalist and his knowledge of the Middle East is unrivalled among his Western peers. His reports from Iraq during the worst days of the conflict there put other journalists and media outlets to shame. Australia and the world are lucky to have such a a fair and fearless correspondent. I look forward to reading his book.
Posted by DanJoaquinOz on Thu 12 Feb 2009 at 03:01 AM
Paul Mcgeough never publishes anything until he has it verified at least 5 times as I discovered when I helped him with an important story in 2005.
I have both of his first two books and have ordered the third one due out next week.
I read his work in Australia no matter what he reports on because he is the best in our business.
Posted by Marilyn Shepherd on Wed 18 Feb 2009 at 11:52 AM
As others have said, Paul McGough is an outstanding chronicler of the events in the Middle East. His stance is always considered and well-informed and his understanding of Palestinian politics one of the most important resources we have for trying to grasp the complexities of the situation of Gaza, the West Bank, Fatah and of course Hamas. It is a shame if he is misread and caricatured as an apologist for terrorism, or a hater of Israel. I'll be reading his forthcoming book and hope colleagues and friends will do so.
Posted by Marjorie O'Loughlin on Thu 19 Feb 2009 at 10:48 PM
Kudos on an excellent interview, the questions were excellent and probing. Too often the media coverage in the United States is not evenhanded and doesn't even try, lacking even the basic social or historical context. Most of the reporters sit in Jerusalem and seemingly report from what they see on TV, or scattered filings from stringers. More need to go out and travel the territory, hear the voices, record their stories.
Posted by akhan on Fri 20 Feb 2009 at 01:18 AM
Thanks for the IDF/ADL vetted talking points from tzatz and DB above. Can we share part of the commission?
Posted by optimist on Fri 20 Feb 2009 at 10:41 PM
Thanks for this excellent interview. However, as an Australlian journalist, Mr. McGeough underestimates the situation for US journalists trying to inform Americans about this conflict. The studies by If Americans Knew (posted at www.ifamericansknew.org) and others have shown that the US media report on Israeli deaths at rates up to 13 times greater than they report on Palestinian deaths. Similarly, they consistently misreport the breaking of ceasefires -- see http://www.ifamericansknew.org/media/cfb.html
An award-winning Palestinian journalist, Mohammed Omer, was grotesquely strip searched by Israeli guards when he tried to return to his home in Gaza awhile back; this went largely unreported in the American media.
In 2003 a former Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff testified on Capitol Hill that Israel had committed an act of war against the United States when it killed and injured 200 American servicemen; he went on to testify that this had been covered up by order of the White House. What should have been headline news -- statements of such significance by such a highly credentialed Naval admiral -- also went unreported to Americans.
The poor reporting on Israel, Hamas, Palestinians, etc. goes far beyond Mr. McGeough's comments.
Posted by Alison Weir on Sat 21 Feb 2009 at 02:44 PM
Tzatz - are you suggesting that Hamas' de facto recognition of Israel is incompatible with its resistance against Israeli occupation? What an odd concept.
Your argument about McGeough using an interpreter is also a red herring. He is not a gullible westerner and Gaza is not a fundamentalist theocracy.
The truth is, Israel has never allowed the Palestinians to develop the institutions of a democratic state. Israel ineptly midwifed Hamas in the 1980s as a foil to the secular and nationalist PLO, an organisation that recognised Israel decades ago and is committed to a peaceful two-state solution. When Hamas was democratically elected, they were prevented from governing by Israel and Fatah, with US and EU collusion. So yes, where are the democratic institutions? And we remember the fate of the police and the rest of the "Hamas infrastructure of terror" in Gaza.
And Tzatz, which sources should McGeough be more critical of? I've read the work in question and I would be happy to discuss it with you. But brush up your hasbara first, it's a little weak.
Posted by Karl on Sun 5 Apr 2009 at 12:17 AM