If the MSM is to be believed, soon we will know what cuts Congress has in mind for Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, and the much maligned CLASS Act. That was a provision in the health reform law championed by the late Sen. Edward Kennedy that represented a teensy-tiny step toward a national program to pay for long-term care. That’s the same MSM that still uses language that mischaracterizes the programs in question or disguises what’s in store for ordinary folks. Campaign Desk has talked about this a lot lately, calling to task the NewsHour for letting the pols get away with empty Orwellian speak.
Just this morning The New York Times told us that yesterday neither side in the great deficit debate “reported any substantive progress as they searched for a formula that would include deep spending cuts, cost-saving changes to entitlement programs and an overhaul of the tax code that would increase revenues by closing certain tax breaks and eliminating deductions but also lower some tax rates.” What are these “cost-saving changes to entitlement programs?” Heavens! The words “cost-saving changes” make this sound like a good thing. It might be for the government’s budget, but may not be for the public.
The other day NPR’s Robert Siegel, host of All Things Considered, was chatting with Virginia senator Mark Warner, a Democratic member of the Gang. He asked him whether one of the likely cuts would be the CLASS Act. Warner replied:
Listen, there are a number of people who fought very hard for the CLASS Act. In concept, it makes sense. The problem with the aging of our population is to add a big new entitlement that for the first 10 years doesn’t cost that much, but in the out years, really would be extraordinary costly. We thought at this moment of tight deficits we couldn’t promise folks this new entitlement if we couldn’t pay for it 10 or 15 years from now.
The CLASS Act an entitlement? Not exactly. In some circles, he word entitlement has come to mean a social insurance program that all people pay into and at some point are entitled to a benefit. That’s how Medicare and Social Social Security work. Medicaid is a different creature because it is means-tested big time. People who get it must be poor and meet an income and asset test to qualify for benefits. Some policy wonks say that once people are poor, or make themselves poor enough by spending their income and assets on care to meet those tests, they are “entitled” to a benefit. But this entitlement can be yanked away if the recipient’s income or assets increase, putting them over the line. Once you get Medicare and Social Security benefits, you get them the rest of your life.
The CLASS Act is different still. It’s a voluntary long-term disability insurance program that would pay a daily cash benefit to those who contributed to the plan during their working careers. If they become disabled, that benefit could be used to buy services of, say, a personal care attendant or secure other help people need to stay in their homes. Perhaps Warner meant that it was an entitlement for those who voluntarily pay into the fund and get something back. But those who choose not to participate are not entitled to anything.
In any case, Siegel did not push back or probe further what the CLASS Act is all about, doing little to enlighten NPR listeners. The CLASS Act had a stormy path through Congress when it finally made it into the reform law. For those who want to go beyond NPR’s non-explanation, Politico’s story may be just the thing.
Perhaps it doesn’t matter any more how the media explain what’s in the package if the deal is sealed. But it will matter to people who depend on these programs when they learn what those euphemisms are covering up.

Your focused effort to ignore even the simplest and most logical criticism of the CLASS act makes you look like nine parts hack and one part journalist.
The critics of the CLASS Act have very valid points. If only those who are most likely to need it, those with health problems, sign up for it and the actuaries who figure out how to make it self sustaining over a 75 year period don’t take that into account it won’t be deficit neutral and congress will have to dip into the general funds to make up the balance. You could argue that the actuaries have taken all this into account but they didn’t do a hell of a job with their Social Security projections, now did they. And speaking of which, since you hold such a strong opinion on this subject, you must have spent the hundreds of hours pouring over the actuarial data and its underlying assumptions that would lead you to such a strong position on this. Surely this isn’t just some liberal knee jerk reaction.
After all, strong convictions on topics like this are best made with a good grasp of the facts, not merely on an emotional level.
#1 Posted by Mike H, CJR on Thu 21 Jul 2011 at 05:10 PM
Trudy toes the commie/liberal line: "Heavens! The words “cost-saving changes” make this sound like a good thing. It might be for the government’s budget, but may not be for the public."
padikiller notes: LOL..
A frank admission that in Lieberman Liberal La La Land the "government's budget" and the "public" budget are two different things...
The "government" is an endless source of milk and honey for the "public".
The scary thing is that these screwy liberals really, really believe this!
#2 Posted by padikiller, CJR on Thu 21 Jul 2011 at 06:23 PM
Speaking of Medicaid...
You wouldn't know it from the CJR-types...
But James O'Keefe has done it again - this time exposing government workings aiding and abetting Medicaid fraud:
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/V/VA_MEDICAID_FRAUD_VIDEO_VAOL-?SITE=VALYD&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT
You might not like his tactics, but you have to acknowledge that this guy has done more to put an end to commie/liberal stupidity than just about any human being on Earth.
#3 Posted by padikiller, CJR on Thu 21 Jul 2011 at 06:47 PM
The "public fund," as interpreted by some of those who are elected to serve the public, easily becomes the trough from which they feed when seen from the perspective that - since these servants represent the public - whatever they do with the public fund is for the public. Is this circular logic or what?!
Public service ever so transparently morphs into sevice for the servants. Those who are granted the priviilege & responsiblity of serving the public become the recipients and beneficiaries of the public fund if only because the line that separates the representative from the public blurs into oblivion. Pork barrel politics reigns most supreme whenever the public fund is seen as what the elected representative's constituants want, whether those same constituants ever voiced their opinion to the contrary or not.
#4 Posted by JD, CJR on Thu 21 Jul 2011 at 10:08 PM
The problems with the CLASS Act are many, beginning with the very high risk of adverse selection. A second key flaw is the provision that individuals only need to make contributions to the program for five years before being eligible for what are essentially unlimited benefits. So, anyone who gives this any thought would opt not to pay into the program until they reach age 55 or 60 or whatever the cut-off is established at rather than 30 or 35, because the benefit amount bears no relationship to the amount paid in premiums (unlike social security). Our lawmakers are right to jettison this ill-considered turkey and come up with something our nation can afford.
#5 Posted by William Johnson, CJR on Thu 21 Jul 2011 at 10:16 PM
First, the CLASS act is voluntary to opt out, but it requires effort on behalf of employers and employees to do so. Many won't, especially if the promise provides a possible benefit that outweighs the immediate cost. Voluntary opt out/opt in by default doesn't have the same effect on adverse selection as a mandate, but it does moderate the problem a bit as anyone who has set up systems with default options knows.
Second, "You could argue that the actuaries have taken all this into account but they didn’t do a hell of a job with their Social Security projections, now did they." yes, the actuaries did not anticipate the wages of the bottom 4/5ths of the population to stagnate which led to a commission to save social security. They saved it by increasing the payroll tax for those under the cap and raising the retirement age. The program maintained enough income to support the year to year demands of the program, plus a few billion which got stocked into 2 trillion worth of government treasuries. There is no social security crisis, there is an "unwillingness to settle government accounts" crisis which is due to the rich that pushed for tax cuts which were offset by social security surpluses.
Now they are no longer offset and now that people need the money they deposited in payroll taxes back, the rich are shouting "THERE IS NO MONEY!" from their yachts.
That's not the fault of actuarial projectionists. That's the fault of a dumb ideology which has taken over government and major institutions and now won't let go. These dumb conservatives who believe in wage repression for everyone but themselves, believe in being independent of government welfare and services for everyone but themselves, believe in law and order for everyone but themselves, believe in walled off paradises where the effects of government paucity and their social pathology will never touch - a place for no one but themselves.
A revolution happened, a conservative revolution. The actuaries of the 1930's - 50's didn't take that into account.
"Trudy toes the commie/liberal line: "Heavens! The words “cost-saving changes” make this sound like a good thing. It might be for the government’s budget, but may not be for the public."...
A frank admission that in Lieberman Liberal La La Land the "government's budget" and the "public" budget are two different things..."
Once again, padkiller is an idiot. Neglecting the sick comes at a public cost, be it in disease, increased crime out of the need to pay for treatment, the spectacle of dying people lying in the streets, the cost to families who must sustain a long term disabled individual without assistance, etc.
It's like when the government does some sort of cost saving measure like neglecting water treatment. Yeah it may save the government a bundle, but then people get sick and die because of the water. The public may not want the government to save that bundle if it means everybody suffers from the lack of services the government once provided. In other words, something "might be" good "for the government’s budget, but may not be for the public."
You really didn't get this, Mr. Lawyer dude? Ms. Lieberman's choice of words was too confusing?
#6 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Fri 22 Jul 2011 at 02:43 AM
I appreciated your insight on this issue as it related to the NPR story, as I listened to the interview with Senator Warner and thought that a further discussion of why the CLASS Act was considered a bargaining chip in the discussion on the raising of the debt ceiling limit was warranted.
The CLASS Act begins to address the issue of who pays for the costs of long term care. With the first of the baby boom generation turning 65 this year, serious conversations need to occur, not only on the rising costs, but what long term care actually looks like--is it community based? Facility Based? A combination of the two?
It seems to me that this conversation about long term care, the CLASS Act and other care issues must occur not only as part of the discussion of the raising of the debt ceiling limit, but also as a stand alone conversation.
#7 Posted by Charlene, CJR on Fri 22 Jul 2011 at 07:32 AM
The liberals don't care about long term care...
They just want to see the government involved in the day-to-day lives of the citizenry to the maximum extent possible. In the commie/liberal worldview, the gubment is the provider of life's necessities - and the ability to print money gives it boundless means to provide.
More government is better, in this crazy commie perspective, and despite the abject failure of collectivist governments all over the world (China, Cuba, North Korea, Vietnam, Soviet Union, Warsaw Pact nations, etc) nothing will persuade the liberals that the free market is the best way to advance the human condition.
The plain reality is that there a zillions of existing private long-term disability plans from which to choose in the free market. Why bemoan the loss of a voluntary government program when there are private alternatives?
#8 Posted by padikiller, CJR on Fri 22 Jul 2011 at 09:21 AM
yes, the actuaries did not anticipate
Thank you for the admission. Now, what’s to prevent them from doing so again?
The actuaries of the 1930's - 50's didn't take that into account.
Umm the last reevaluation was in 83 … thanks for trying.
"Trudy toes the commie/liberal line: "Heavens! The words “cost-saving changes” make this sound like a good thing. It might be for the government’s budget, but may not be for the public."...
It's like when the government does some sort of cost saving measure like neglecting water treatment. Yeah it may save the government a bundle, but then people get sick and die because of the water.
That was an interesting aside, surely you must have a specific example of local governments neglecting water treatment and people dying from waterborne illnesses?
The public may not want the government to save that bundle if it means everybody suffers from the lack of services the government once provided. In other words, something "might be" good "for the government’s budget, but may not be for the public."
Bait and switch. The issue here, according to Lieberman, is that there is no need to kill the CLASS act because it will be deficit neutral. But, as these programs have shown, they are never deficit neutral.
#9 Posted by Mike H, CJR on Fri 22 Jul 2011 at 10:23 AM
Poor paddi,
Admiring O'Keefe's laughable non-sting of a medicaid employee.
What's next believing in unicorns? Oh, wait you already do, don't you?
#10 Posted by Just Jake, CJR on Fri 22 Jul 2011 at 11:12 AM
Laugh all you want, Jake...
But here in Virginia, the Attorney General has already launched an investigation because of O'Keefe's latest sting...
ACORN is dead... NPR is dying on the government vine... And it is very possible that O'Keefe's latest venture will result in substantial Medicaid reform.
You have to admit... The guy gets things done.
#11 Posted by padikiller, CJR on Fri 22 Jul 2011 at 11:48 AM
"Thank you for the admission. Now, what’s to prevent them from doing so again?"
Sorry did the world end from the unanticipated changes? I mean all government programs must run amok whenever there are unanticipated changes, and everyone must be powerless to react or adjust to those changes, so surely the world must have ended when social security began to face these changes. There's no other logical conclusion.
It's funny how actuarial blah blahs and future projection whatnots are priorities for good programs under republicans; but things like the Iraq war, tax cuts. and Medicare part d - which benefit corporations; just don't receive the same scrutiny.
"Umm the last reevaluation was in 83 … thanks for trying."
Oh you mean the one which produced the 2 trillion social security trust fund and collected 92 billion more in revenue than it spent last year?
http://www.ssa.gov/oact/trsum/index.html
So yeah, where was your point again?
"That was an interesting aside, surely you must have a specific example of local governments neglecting water treatment and people dying from waterborne illnesses?"
It was a hypothetical based on not not hypothetical data.
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/02/10/us/as-cities-move-to-privatize-water-atlanta-steps-back.html
I could have used bridges, dams, public hospital sanitation, food and drug inspections and made the same valid point.
"Bait and switch. The issue here, according to Lieberman, is that there is no need to kill the CLASS act because it will be deficit neutral. But, as these programs have shown, they are never deficit neutral."
Yeah, I know what you mean. Some of these programs - like social security - make money.
Thank you for trying.
#12 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Fri 22 Jul 2011 at 02:20 PM
Oh you mean the one which produced the 2 trillion social security trust fund and collected 92 billion more in revenue than it spent last year?
Thimbles, did you go to the David Cay Johnston school of reading balance sheets? The report from which you took that figure from does not say that SSA “collected $92 billion more in revenue than it spent last year”, it stated that OASI had a “$92 billion net increase in assets”. No we all know that the “assets” in question are the special treasury notes that SS holds, and that they are not real assets by any recognized definition of the term.
According to a comprehensive reading of a balance sheet of SS’s expenses (don’t worry, I ‘ll help you read it if you can’t figure it out), SS was $8 billion in the red in 2009 and $20 billion in the red for 2010
As for the $2 trillion trust fund, when was it originally supposed to be depleted and when are the current projects?
I know, those darned facts have such a right wing bias!
It was a hypothetical based on not not hypothetical data.
Interesting article but I missed the portion in which it detailed a rise in waterborne pathogens as a result.
I could have used bridges, dams, public hospital sanitation, food and drug inspections and made the same valid point.
Actually, if your “link” was any indication, you couldn’t. But since I do this kind of thing for a living (large capital infrastructure and what-not), please enlighten me … I am sorely in need of a good laugh today.
Yeah, I know what you mean. Some of these programs - like social security - make money.
But they don’t, and that was my point, as well as the point of the opponents of the CLASS act. Nice of you to try. Better luck next time.
#13 Posted by Mike H, CJR on Fri 22 Jul 2011 at 02:51 PM
If the stupid program is voluntary and deficit-neutral... Then why in the frick is it needed?
There are tons of private insurance programs already on the market that do the same thing.
And with the POTUS making it clear that he can't guarantee entitlement benefits next month, the regulated private sector is certainly more reliable.
This CLASS thing is nothing but another commie/liberal government power grab.
#14 Posted by padikiller, CJR on Fri 22 Jul 2011 at 02:56 PM
Hey Padi, ease up on poor Thimbles, Its obvious he forgot to put on his thinkin' hat today.
#15 Posted by Mike H, CJR on Fri 22 Jul 2011 at 03:40 PM
Thimbles waxes more than a tad histrionic: the spectacle of dying people lying in the streets...
The HORROR of it! And what with this "health care crisis", the bodies of those murdered by a lack of health insurance are piling up left and right!...
I tripped over three corpses on the way to the grocery store last night.
But seriously.... These lunatics will write anything in support of these government boondoggles.
I'd like to know exactly why anyone thinks putting the government into the long term care business is good idea. I bet you'd hear some stories that make this latest little Thimbilism look reasonable.
#16 Posted by padikiller, CJR on Fri 22 Jul 2011 at 05:51 PM
You guys finished? I'll wait....
Okay, we'll play the game as you set it. We'll pretend that the trust fund is made of imaginary money, and not the real money that was collected to pay for wars, unfunded benefits which turned out to be gifts to the pharmaceuticals, tax cuts, and partially privatized medicare which turned out to be a gift to the insurers - we'll pretend that all that real money collected from people's payrolls was converted to fake assets and that it's perfectly hunky dory to claim the government doesn't have to pay that money back at the interest it borrowed it at.
And we'll even use the cbo document you posted.
Revenues for 2009 - 654
Other income a/ Taxes on benefits for 2009 - 21
Federal employer share for 2009 - 14
= 689 billion
Total outgo - 670
Do the math. + 19 billion according to your balance sheet.
So where did you get your figures?
DI surplus for 2009 - -8 billion
DI surplus for 2009 - -20 billion
That DI stands for disability insurance, one part of social security, dumb ass.
But I guess I should ease up on poor Mike H.
"Interesting article but I missed the portion in which it detailed a rise in waterborne pathogens as a result."
Is it your claim that if the government cut back on its water purification services that there would not be an increase of pathogens? Or if the government cut back on bridge maintenance, dam maintenance, food and drug inspections that public safety would not be compromised?
And, since much American infrastructure is about 60 years old, is there not a present danger now as governments refuse to pay for basic infrastructure upkeep, never mind replacement of infrastructure that's been extended beyond its designed life cycle?
http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/4219981
These are not the kind of things you can just claim "I'm an expert, therefore I know that the government doesn't need to spend money on services protecting the public health and I know that aging American infrastructure is just fine."
People see and use this crap in their daily lives. They know when their roads are left unmaintained for too long, when their water mains burst, when their levies fail.
And I don't think the argument "Well we could have maintained all of those things, but we needed that money for
tax cutsto improve government finances" is going to fly. What may be good for the government budget isn't always good for the public. Simple concept so why are we arguing it, you perceptive wunderkinds?#17 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Sat 23 Jul 2011 at 12:52 AM
"If the stupid program is voluntary and deficit-neutral... Then why in the frick is it needed?
There are tons of private insurance programs already on the market that do the same thing."
How efficient are the private options? Can the poor afford them? If they can, then let them ignore this public option and pick their private option.
It's not like the private sector shouldn't be able to compete, so what's the harm?
Hell, it's not like the idiot DLC dems and the Conserafascist republicans aren't going to weaken the plan so that
the private sector can competereduce the deficit neutral program's effect on the deficit. I don't see what's worth defending or attacking about the program.While conservative ideology and purchased politics are the channels in which the government flows, there is nothing really worth paying attention to from the government. It's all going to be HAMPered in the end.
http://www.creditslips.org/creditslips/2010/12/hamp-21-redefault-rate-in-1st-year.html
Our problem isn't government, it's the bipartisan conservatives running it:
http://ampedstatus.org/obama-is-a-bankster-puppet-who-brought-on-the-depression-that-the-republicans-never-could-have-gotten-away-with/
#18 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Sat 23 Jul 2011 at 01:39 AM
Conservative? In my Obama? Even Bruce Bartlett says so in Pete Peterson's news venture no less:
http://www.thefiscaltimes.com/Columns/2011/07/22/Barack-Obama-The-Democrats-Richard-Nixon.aspx
#19 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Sat 23 Jul 2011 at 01:50 AM
Thimbles...
You are dodging the question.
If this CLASS program is (i) voluntary, (ii)deficit-neutral, and (iii) funded by participant contributions.... Then WHY in the HELL do we need it?
The people who can't afford to select one of the many private long term plans obviously couldn't afford to pay into the CLASS program.
Private enterprise is always, always, always inherently more efficient than government. PERIOD.
The private sector will always deliver more service or goods for less money than the government can. Your talk of "competition" is misguided - the government never competes because it is never subject to market forces.
Indeed, government employees rarely do any actual work - when it comes to actually chunking out a tax form, or actually processing an insurance claim, or actually digging a ditch, the government bureaucrats almost invariably hire contractors to do the dirty work. The GS-14's sit in spacious offices, attend useless meetings and travel to Vegas for needless conferences.
Finally... Since the President of our United States has just publicly stated that entitlement benefits are unsafe NOW.. WHY do you liberals want to start another entitlement program? WHY would you risk tossing more old folks out to die on the streets when political forces can stop the benefit checks at any time? WHY would you subject our defenseless elderly to this misery, when their lives could be saved by guaranteed coverage by highly regulated safer private insurance companies subject to tight bonding and reinsurance requirements and close inspection by state corporation commissions?
Imagine the corpses of the elderly littering the streets in the weeks after the government stops mailing out the CLASS act checks, Thimbo?
How can you advocate for such evil?
#20 Posted by padikilller, CJR on Sat 23 Jul 2011 at 09:51 AM
"Private enterprise is always, always, always inherently more efficient than government. PERIOD."
If unthinking zealotry was an argument, I'd be totally swept up by your blurb just now.
But the facts and realities are that the market isn't magic, there are reasons why it works, and why it doesn't work when those reasons aren't present. Do you want to take a stab at explaining these things or would you like to spout some more empty dogma?
Go on, explain the market. Show us the models by which "Private enterprise is ... inherently more efficient than government." Substantiate your little beliefs.
As the title says:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CGoRLC52jDo
#21 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Sat 23 Jul 2011 at 11:17 AM
"By pursuing his own interest [an individual] frequently promotes that of the society more effectually than when he really intends to promote it. I have never known much good done by those who affected to trade for the [common] good." - Adam Smith
#22 Posted by padikiller, CJR on Sat 23 Jul 2011 at 12:39 PM
"By pursuing his own interest [an individual] frequently promotes that of the society more effectually than when he really intends to promote it."
Why? It shouldn't be a mystery. Why and how does it work?
#23 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Sat 23 Jul 2011 at 09:14 PM
I have never known much good done by those who affected to trade for the [common] good." - Adam Smith
(You curiously forgot that one, Thimbo)
The government can't do anything efficiently... Not a damned thing. The government is inherently inefficient and unable to compete - there is no profit motive - no incentive to cut costs - no reward for success - and no accountability for failure. It can't deliver the mail, launch a rocket, wage a war, print a dollar bill, coin a dime, etc, etc, etc, more efficiently than a private enterprise can do any of these things. But at least there are valid reasons to tolerate governmental inefficiency in these core governmental functions.
As for educating children, providing crappy health care to veterans, building cars, running banks, growing crops, managing slums, etc.. There is no justification for tolerating the wasteful inefficiency of these boondoggles.
The government gets notice of Madoff's ponzi scheme during the Clinton administration and ignores it... and who gets canned? Nobody. NASA blows up a couple of space shuttles and a Mars probe and who gets canned? Nobody.
A federal government employee is more likely to die than he or she is to be laid off or fired:
http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2011-07-18-fderal-job-security_n.htm
The Constitution enumerates the powers of the federal government for a reason. A whole bunch of very smart guys had been through the wringer.. They had gone from colonial rule, to an association of colonies, to a confederation of independent states, to a federal government all at a terrible price.
By the time they ratified the Constitution, these guys had thirty years of experience with colonial oppression, international diplomacy, global war, insurrection, financial crisis, internal political strife, and a whole lot more. They had seen the limitations of the Continental Congresses and of the Articles of Confederation and they took years to come up with a government that took America from nothing to a superpower in a little more than a century.
They didn't get everything right, of course (and they knew they hadn't - thus the amendment process), but their united vision of limited federal government was a recipe for success, just as the commie/liberal vision of big government is a recipe for misery.
#24 Posted by padikiller, CJR on Sat 23 Jul 2011 at 10:50 PM
Once again...
If this CLASS boondoggle is (i) voluntary, (ii) deficit- neutral, and (iii) funded by contributions... Then WHY is it neccessary? WHY should the federal government get involved in the long term care business?
HUH?
Where is the benefit to the taxpayers?
#25 Posted by padikiller, CJR on Sat 23 Jul 2011 at 11:16 PM
The answer to my above question (what is the good for the taxpayers in a federal program that is voluntary and deficit neutral) is that commie/liberals rejoice in this obvious distinction, but are loathe to admit that in our present society "taxpayers" and the "public" are two different groups of people. It kinda runs counter to the "Democratic" thing to acknowledge this little slice of R E A L I T Y.
Commie/liberal policy has succeeded to the point where the majority of Americans now have no income tax liability whatsoever. All the liberal lip service to "shared sacrifice" and "having skin in the game" is nothing but a ruse - liberals want now what they always want - namely other peoples' money - and right now, under the tax code that's exactly what they've got.
The accomplished goal of the liberals is to create a permanent underclass dependent on the government and the misguided faith is that government can actually run an economy capable of doling out the necessities of life in perpeuity. In this sick commie worldview, an equal helping of government-funded misery is better than a disparity in situation in a free market economy, even though the average condition is improved much more greatly in the free market than it is in government-managed economies.
The liberals don't give a crap about the underclass. They aren't trying to stop the drug and alcohol abuse that plagues the projects and trailer parks. They aren't trying to limit food stamp purchases to healthy foods. They aren't fostering employment or self-reliance. They aren't doing anything about the insane incarceration rate of black males. They aren't doing anything but defending the crappy government schools (like the Atlanta schools caught up in a huge cheating scandal that you won't read about hear in CJR Liberal La La Land) that pump out illiterate future criminals in order to keep the federal money flowing. They've got the "poor" Americans exactly where they want them - dependent on the gubment and safely sequestered on the other side of town.
The reasons that the commie/liberals love the CLASS boondoggle are threefold.
1. They are lying. They know that program isn't deficit-neutral, but instead will evolve into a huge entitlement program as Medicare and Medicaid have done.
2. They know that a "voluntary" program is the first-step to a mandated program.
3. They know that any entitlement program increases the dependence of the masses on the government - and for these guys, a bigger government is a better government.
Thank goodness the crap is hitting the fan now. It's time to put an end to this commie/liberal stupidity and to restore the American dream - opportunity through hard work (GASP! - that's enough to send the commies into a Code Blue fibrillation).
#26 Posted by padikiller, CJR on Sun 24 Jul 2011 at 12:00 AM
Again, you've given me the faith when what I asked for was the mechanism.
How does one:
"pursuing his own interest, frequently promote that of the society more effectually than when he really intends to promote it"?
Do you understand how that works?
#27 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Sun 24 Jul 2011 at 01:00 AM
Thimbles dodges: "How does one: "pursuing his own interest, frequently promote that of the society more effectually than when he really intends to promote it"?
padikiller elucidates: By PAYING PEOPLE THE FAIR MARKET PRICE for goods or services, Thimbo.
Go back and read the book, Dude!... It's Smith's "Invisible Hand"... ECON 101, Pal...
The free market is B E T T E R than anything else (efficiency-wise)
Screwing with the free market ALWAYS comes at price. It's up to society to determine whether this price is justified in any particular circumstance to attain some particular social end... But there is no question (among smart people, at least) that government intervention into the free market ALWAYS comes with a price tag.
Once again...
WHY should the taxpayers fund the overhead for a supposedly "voluntary" and "deficit-neutral" program that provides services that are already widely available in the private sector?
HUH?
#28 Posted by padikiller, CJR on Sun 24 Jul 2011 at 01:26 AM
You don't get it. Your answers are less lawyer and more salesman. You haven't thought about this and therefore all you can offer is the standard, unimaginative, pitch.
You want to know why the market works at " frequently promoting the interests of the society more effectually"? It has to do with power.
Nobody likes tyranny except for tyrants. Why? Because tyrannies exercise power without concern for what they exercise power upon. In a tyranny, there is no negotiation. There is desire followed by realization without thought to cost or benefit. In tyrannies there are two states of mind - divine entitlement and panic induced acquiescence.
The problem was, even though no-one liked tyranny except the tyrants, tyranny brought order to society. People knew their roles and the rules within the hierarchy with allowed the society to operate as an ordered unit instead of the chaos of a thousand (if not a million) individuals. Negotiation between the many was sacrificed for the good of stability of the whole. Some think of this scenario as the defining characteristic of evil:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cMoZ3ThW6x0
But hey, was there a better way at the time?
Yes, in fact there was. Negotiation is how the market works. The seller must negotiate with the buyer in order to complete the sale. The seller cannot act like a tyrant because he sells at the pleasure of his customers, and those customers may walk to a competitor's table if the seller does not provide value and service sufficient to please the customer at the price desired.
Keep that in mind, negotiation is what makes the market work for mutual benefit.
Later, those ideas which made successful transactions began to get incorporated into politics. If you can make an economy work as a stable unit, in spite of the participation of thousands of individuals, through transactions and negotiation, why can't you make a politics - a style of governance - that involves thousands of people, that serves at the pleasure of the
customerselectorate, that requires negotiation in order to function, and that works towards the mutual benefit of the whole? It's going to be messy, it's not going to be "efficient", and it's going to be frustrating to deal with both reasonable and unreasonable negotiations as they form obstacles to your goal, but it beats tyranny, right?Both functioning markets and functioning democracies depend on an informed populace making choices between honest actors in order to achieve mutual benefit.
Pt 2 in a jiffy
#29 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Sun 24 Jul 2011 at 02:20 PM
The negotiation paradigm spread into the labor force which had, for many years, operated within the tyranny of the workplace. The workplace was changed for the better, the middle class was revolutionized for the better, and the mutual benefits are high in the areas of the world where the value of negotiation is still esteemed.
The market works when parties can, on an informed basis, negotiate, but tyrants and those who shy from anarchy prefer another way. It's more efficient, there's less red tape, and it's quicker and direct. They prefer tyranny. They prefer monopolies. They prefer non-negotiation and non-competition. They prefer misinformed customers. They prefer no choice.
Because the profit mark up on a no-choice scenario is high. Health care is a no choice scenario for the sick, a place where customers are uninformed about their choices and cannot compare vendors. A place where they cannot refuse a vendor's offer because what the vendor offers is life.
This is why your private health care industry costs twice what other systems and does not produce a benefit, compared to other countries, in line with the expense.
http://www.kff.org/insurance/snapshot/OECD042111.cfm
It's because the market is not working towards the benefit of the sick. It doesn't have to. Few sectors in the modern economy do. Tyranny is back in vogue, has been since the 1980's when labor and political negotiation plus oil shocks made things really messy and inefficient.
And so America benefited from this tyranny of conservative elites in the sense that order was reestablished, people functioned within their roles / within the rules again, and certain members of the American population got very rich.
But there was no mutual benefit.
http://motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2010/01/revisiting-wage-stagnation
Most people learned they couldn't negotiate in the "new morning" sun and so wages stagnated for three decades. And the elites? Their desires were followed by realizations in law and in market without thought to cost or benefit. S&L's. LTCM. Enron. The 2007-08 collapse. The bubble/burst economy.
We are living in a time of tyrannical, disaster capitalism. The markets are not efficient. They are broken. Unless the public regains the power to negotiate on clear, mutually respectful terms with the corruptors of capitalism on how to achieve mutual benefit, the tyranny will continue.
One step to rolling back market tyranny is to introduce competitive options into the market. That restores a measure of power to the consumer who can now refuse the subpar services offered by the available vendors.
But pretending that “Aww yeah, private markets are so awesome!” in this day and age is... well.. kind of disconnected from the reality around you.
#30 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Sun 24 Jul 2011 at 02:31 PM
Of all the kooky, Black Helicopter, nutsiness I've seen out of Thimbles, this Manifesto takes the cake!...
Is there a point in there somewhere? Free markets are bad? Is that it?
The unnamed corporate "tyrants" have in some unspecified manner "corrupted" the free markets? How exactly?
Two blabby posts and still no justification for putting the government into the long term care business - aside from unsubstantiated and downright silly conspiratorial nonsense.
Underlying all of this tripe is the misguided belief that government can run things better than the private sector can - a belief that can't withstand the slightest bit of honest intellectual scrutiny.
There is unquestionably never any good economic reason to put the government in charge of a damned thing - but there are sometimes valid societal reasons for doing so in limited cases... Is long term care one of these cases? Hardly, under the terms of the CLASS Act - the program is voluntary and funded by premiums (both in theory, at least) - thus the many private options available in the free market are clearly superior in terms of selection, price and choice. Furthermore, the Presidents of the United States has made it clear that benefit payments may be interrupted... So how can anyone advocate for such a system over crucial care for the elderly?
Nonetheless, liberals like Thimbles and Trudy love these superfluous government boondoggle programs for some silly reason.
Finally... It bears repeating to note that the commie/liberals don't consider the "public" and the "taxpayers" to be synonymous. Notice Thimbles dodging this issue completely - he and his ilk won't go near this little truism - because it is the one thing that they know that they'll never sell to the average guy on the street. This social disparity didn't exist even 50 years ago - if one spoke of the "public good" in the Kennedy days, he or she was understood to be speaking generally of the taxpayers... The "taxpayers" were the "public".
Now, such is not the case. Thanks to the transformation of commie/liberal stupidity into public policy, more than half the country now pays no net income tax at all. An entire underclass has become dependent on productive taxpayers for food, shelter, spending money, medical care, and now even cell phones, television and internet service.
To Thimbles and his commie kin, the "taxpayers" are the avowed enemy - the "rich"- and a source of property to be seized in the commie cause, while the "public" are the unproductive recipients of this loot (minus the government's cut, of course). It's just Robin Hood, circa 2011, with the addition of a trillion dollar bureaucracy to support.
#31 Posted by padikiller, CJR on Sun 24 Jul 2011 at 04:41 PM
"Of all the kooky, Black Helicopter, nutsiness I've seen out of Thimbles, this Manifesto takes the cake!..."
*shrug*
"Is there a point in there somewhere? Free markets are bad? Is that it?"
Centralized power is bad. It's efficient, but it discourages negotiation and reduces mutual benefit.
"The unnamed corporate "tyrants" have in some unspecified manner "corrupted" the free markets? How exactly?"
Oh.. Oh dear. If you still haven't got this basics on this... Okay, one small example:
http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2009/10/18/77244/how-moodys-sold-its-ratings-and.html
"Underlying all of this tripe is the misguided belief that government can run things better than the private sector can - a belief that can't withstand the slightest bit of honest intellectual scrutiny."
Except in sectors where the individual consumer cannot negotiate as effectively as a motivated electorate. Such is the case in health care, where there are heaps of data showing America pays more per capita, both publicly and privately, for outcomes inferior to other countries who manage to provide universal coverage at less cost.
R E A L I T Y
"Nonetheless, liberals like Thimbles and Trudy love these superfluous government boondoggle programs for some silly reason."
As I said, I don't care. With the current government playing its role as a servant to banks and industry, I don't see how the implementation will make much of a difference either way.
"Finally... It bears repeating to note that the commie/liberals don't consider the "public" and the "taxpayers" to be synonymous. "
Of course I do. However the benefits to the public of certain kinds of expenses out weigh the taxpayer cost. Others kinds of expenses, like the military budget that spends multiples of the military budgets for the rest of the world, it doesn't.
Instead of flipping out about health care with your commu-socio-fascist conspiracies (while labeling my stuff as "Black Helicopter nuttiness" LOL) why don't you exercise your considerable energies on dealing with military waste and corruption. You have a lot more to fear from the security state than the welfare one, sunshine.
#32 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Sun 24 Jul 2011 at 10:43 PM
Thimbles wrote: "why don't you exercise your considerable energies on dealing with military waste and corruption?.."
padikiller responds: Because it's a drop in the bucket, that's why...
The elephant in the room is entitlement spending: Here are the 2010 numbers:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_United_States_federal_budget
$695 billion – Social Security
$571 billion – Unemployment/Welfare/Other mandatory spending
$453 billion – Medicare
$290 billion – Medicaid
Total: $2 TRILLION
Total Defense Department budget? $664 billion.
If you completely eliminated the entire defense budget, you would still face a deficit of more than $800 BILLION.. (Twice as high as any deficit in the previous administration)
Got that, Thimbles?
It's time to sideline the Gravy Train before it derails... Entitlement spending is out of hand and it will have to dealt with.
Of course I'm all for eliminating waste in any government program and defense is certainly no exception. However, it should be clear to anyone who can add or subtract that the biggest problem we face is our ridiculous welfare spending.
#33 Posted by padikiller, CJR on Sun 24 Jul 2011 at 11:55 PM
"padikiller responds: Because it's a drop in the bucket, that's why..."
You have a funny definition of the word 'drop'.
"$695 billion – Social Security"
which was paid for and did not contribute to the deficit at all. It fact it reduced it by 90 billion this year if you want to play the fuzzy accounting game where money collected doesn't equate to money returned.
Social security spending is not a deficit contributing problem while social security revenues exceed the cost.
"$571 billion – Unemployment/Welfare/Other mandatory spending"
Directly caused by a doubling of the national unemployment rate which happened on a republican/conservative watch due to republican/conservative approaches to the finance sector.
"$453 billion – Medicare
$290 billion – Medicaid"
Symptomatic of two problems
1) this is what happens when a good health care system is prevented from taking anything but the lemons (the sick and the poor) as applicants. If medicare was available to all, the program would make money, not lose it. But because the wimpy private sector insurers cannot maintain their fat profits without their state by state monopolies unfettered by government competition, that option has been bought from the political process and shot in the back rooms.
2) The whole health care industry in the US is insane:
http://www.businessinsider.com/is-david-brooks-really-clueless-about-the-inefficiency-of-the-us-health-care-system-2011-7
Medicare expense is not a symptom of a bad program, it's a symptom of a program operating within a bad market.
So getting back to the original issue, you had a figure of 2 trillion dollars mandatory spending, of which 695 billion was paid for, so 1.3 trillion of mandatory spending that needed paying. You have discretionary spending which equals 1.3 trillion, half of which is taken up by a bloated defense industry and the costs of past wars, the medical care and pensions for which come out of different departments.
That's just the expenses we know since accounting is information and defense departments do not like to share information. Transparent book keeping can lead to threats to the republic you know, which is why defense departments and state departments (which are also invested in the ongoing military conflicts) can lose a trillion or 2 without much notice.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/01/29/eveningnews/main325985.shtml
Secrecy and corruption that may very well be turning the powers of the state upon its citizens - just a drop in the bucket?
#34 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Mon 25 Jul 2011 at 01:51 PM
ONE MORE TIME, THIMBLES..
If you eliminate the ENTIRE DEFENSE BUDGET...
You are STILL LEFT WITH A DEFICIT OF MORE THAN $800 BILLION ( a deficit twice as large as any under the Bush administration).
This is the R E A L I T Y.
Now did this take, the second time around?
Tweaking the defense budget is NOT going to come anywhere close to fixing things.
It might make for a nice commie/liberal crack dream - but it is simply not possible to balance the budget through cuts to defense spending.
PERIOD.
#35 Posted by padikiller, CJR on Mon 25 Jul 2011 at 05:33 PM
Oh I know. You could also, by that logic, eliminate medicare and medicaid completely and You are STILL LEFT WITH A DEFICIT OF MORE THAN $800 BILLION!! OMGWTFBBQ!
So what's the point in talking about cutting medicare and medicaid, by your logic.
The reality is the government had balanced budgets and was able to afford nice things like entitlements when tax cuts were high and republicans weren't giving away the store to big pharma.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/24/opinion/sunday/24sun4.html
http://www.businessinsider.com/chart-of-the-day-bush-policies-deficits-2010-6
You need to contain and cut military spending, contain health care costs, expand health care coverage, and you need to raise taxes on corporations and the higher tax brackets.
But none of this is going to happen as long as money and stupid conservative ideology - which hasn't worked in the going on 4 decades it's been tried - owns American politics.
And you, with your hypocritical stance of punching big government when it comes to helping old people and the economically dislocated and ignoring big government when it is causing a vast and wasteful security/war apparatus that is secret, erodes democratic values such as individual privacy, causes deep legacy costs due to wounded veterans and military restocking, and is growing as fast as any entitlement you may whine about...
you aren't helping.
#36 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Mon 25 Jul 2011 at 09:21 PM
Did someone say taxes?
http://therealnews.com/t2/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=31&Itemid=74&jumival=6000
So much was was forgotten during the post-Laffer/Freidman economic Dark Ages.
#37 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Mon 25 Jul 2011 at 10:18 PM
"when tax cuts were high" should have read "when taxes were high"
You see? The conservative propaganda environment is so influential, you even got me making the occasional slip.
PS. Really? There's nothing a supposed anti-big government, supposed libertarian, goofball can say about this:
http://projects.washingtonpost.com/top-secret-america/articles/a-hidden-world-growing-beyond-control/
except that "it's a drop in the bucket"? Are you a real person or an empty headed mannequin?
One thing is certain, you aren't a very good lawyer.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mm-mVhvquqw
#38 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Mon 25 Jul 2011 at 10:40 PM
Thimbles droned: "And you, with your hypocritical stance of punching big government when it comes to helping old people and the economically dislocated"
padikiller responds: We have different definitions of the word "help", Thimbles.
You define "help" to mean doling money out of the treasury to unproductive people in order to provide less than ideal government services at the expense of productive people.
I define "help" to mean limiting the scope of government to encourage opportunity and to reward effort and achievement, while discouraging unproductive sloth - with a government-funded system to care only for those who truly can't care for themselves - institutionalized people.
It doesn't "help" anyone to support laziness and failure with tax money.
#39 Posted by padikiller, CJR on Tue 26 Jul 2011 at 12:48 PM
"and ignoring big government when it is causing a vast and wasteful security/war apparatus that is secret, erodes democratic values such as individual privacy, causes deep legacy costs due to wounded veterans and military restocking, and is growing as fast as any entitlement you may whine about..."
I see. You're still ignoring that. Man, the focus you have on making the 'lazy' old, crippled, and poor work non-existent jobs would be admirable if it weren't so dickish.
You know what would be nice? If America had a democratic president who had a better jobs program than "start another war with Libya".
Especially since employment after the military job program isn't so hot:
http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-veteranjobs-20110711,0,3234204.story
and you still have all those bridges and water mains to fix.
But no. Instead, you've got another conservative doing dumb conservative things to piss off his base:
http://digbysblog.blogspot.com/2011/07/there-will-come-point.html
because punching hippies is what all the cool Washington folks do. It's so hip and centrist.
And then you've got people who read fantasy novels about mythic super producers and all the leeches of society sucking off of them. They call vulnerable people lazy because it's so brave to poke fun at the anemic weak who are being sucked dry by bankers and health care costs.
You go get those parasites, padi. You teach the poor a lesson. Don't teach the banks, don't teach the military, don't teach the health care extortionists, don't teach the conservatives who blew the Clinton surplus - followed by the global economy - to hell. Teach grandma. She needs to learn how to live on less socialism. What gives her the right to be unproductive? "So what if you're 80, that doesn't mean you get a free ride. GET A JOB!"
You're a class act.
#40 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Tue 26 Jul 2011 at 02:13 PM
From Krugman:
http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/07/26/the-cult-that-is-destroying-america/
"Watching our system deal with the debt ceiling crisis — a wholly self-inflicted crisis, which may nonetheless have disastrous consequences — it’s increasingly obvious that what we’re looking at is the destructive influence of a cult that has really poisoned our political system.
And no, I don’t mean the fanaticism of the right. Well, OK, that too. But my feeling about those people is that they are what they are; you might as well denounce wolves for being carnivores. Crazy is what they do and what they are.
No, the cult that I see as reflecting a true moral failure is the cult of balance, of centrism.
Think about what’s happening right now. We have a crisis in which the right is making insane demands, while the president and Democrats in Congress are bending over backward to be accommodating — offering plans that are all spending cuts and no taxes, plans that are far to the right of public opinion.
So what do most news reports say? They portray it as a situation in which both sides are equally partisan, equally intransigent — because news reports always do that. And we have influential pundits calling out for a new centrist party, a new centrist president, to get us away from the evils of partisanship.
The reality, of course, is that we already have a centrist president — actually a moderate conservative president. Once again, health reform — his only major change to government — was modeled on Republican plans, indeed plans coming from the Heritage Foundation. And everything else — including the wrongheaded emphasis on austerity in the face of high unemployment — is according to the conservative playbook.
What all this means is that there is no penalty for extremism; no way for most voters, who get their information on the fly rather than doing careful study of the issues, to understand what’s really going on.
You have to ask, what would it take for these news organizations and pundits to actually break with the convention that both sides are equally at fault? This is the clearest, starkest situation one can imagine short of civil war. If this won’t do it, nothing will.
And yes, I think this is a moral issue. The “both sides are at fault” people have to know better; if they refuse to say it, it’s out of some combination of fear and ego, of being unwilling to sacrifice their treasured pose of being above the fray.
It’s a terrible thing to watch, and our nation will pay the price."
#41 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Tue 26 Jul 2011 at 09:25 PM
Thimbles trots out his last great Hope (Paul Krugman)...
Krugman, we must remember, is the same guy who predicted that the internet would have no more lasting effect upon society than the fax machine...
He's just another liberal with an opinion. Being smart doesn't make him right.
#42 Posted by padikiller, CJR on Tue 26 Jul 2011 at 10:18 PM
"Thimbles trots out his last great Hope (Paul Krugman)"
Dude, your big rebuttal was to an aside, not a single major argument. No really, you're a bad lawyer.
But let's get back to the internet in 1998. I was writing apps back in that day and it seemed at the time that, due to bandwidth limitations, semi-stateless browser communications, security issues, and a mass of amateur crap coming out of Angelfire and Geocities, that the browser portion of the internet was more a mass of bill boards for your monitor and less an interactive communications medium. The technology was immature.
Video games made use of the internet, but economists weren't gamers so they didn't know much about that. ICQ was pioneering instant contact and easy file transfer. Email and the hamster dance were the internet's killer features.
Most internet businesses, for the reasons I described earlier, weren't turning a profit because, though the technology was immature, people were investing like it was mature, robust, and revolutionary.
People just weren't ready to do that much with their browsers and, therefore, the internet. Remember, it wasn't until 1999 that napster came along.
In 1998, it could be forgiven if Krugman was underwhelmed by all the hype around the e-niverse. There wasn't much there but wallstreet hype:
http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/the-great-american-bubble-machine-20100405?page=2
spinning gifs, and blink tags.
#43 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Wed 27 Jul 2011 at 08:00 AM
Never mind the reality that Krugman's article, in which he prognosticates, is about the folly of prognostication:
http://web.archive.org/web/19980610100009/www.redherring.com/mag/issue55/economics.html
You're being a bit picky about the guy who called Enron market manipulation as it was happening , for the defrocking of Saint Greenspan long before the world was ready to label him a radical randian fool, and the housing bubble in 2005.
#44 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Wed 27 Jul 2011 at 08:09 AM
Krugman gets some right, and he gets some wrong...
But so does the Farmer's Almanac...
Being smart, doesn't make Krugman right about the debt ceiling mess.
#45 Posted by padikiller, CJR on Wed 27 Jul 2011 at 01:17 PM
You don't read, do you. The article is not about the debt ceiling mess. It's about the pundits and columnists who claim to be 'clean' of all political partisan messiness and write "both sides do it" stories.
#46 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Wed 27 Jul 2011 at 02:12 PM
Who are you kidding, Thimbles?..
Krugman (like all liberals) is about to wet himself because he sees the Gravy Train derailing. There is a very real possibility that we will see the end of whole slew of government commie/liberal programs.
His screed is directed to the "moderates" because his only hope to influence the debate lies with them.
#47 Posted by padikiller, CJR on Wed 27 Jul 2011 at 03:38 PM