A week ago, The Huffington Post’s Sam Stein and Ryan Grim published an article repeating Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid’s claim that GOP presidential nominee Mitt Romney hadn’t paid taxes for ten years. Though Reid provided no evidence other than hearsay about what he was told by an unnamed Bain investor (which HuffPost clarified in the ninth paragraph of the story), the story set in motion a controversy that exemplifies how partisans and ideologues exploit the structural weaknesses of journalism and factchecking.
Politicians exploiting “he said,” “she said” reporting
For many political reporters, journalism is largely a matter of writing down what powerful people say and do and analyzing why they say or do those things. Within that framework, the accuracy of the claims that powerful people make is rarely the focus of coverage. Instead, the claims of mainstream public figures are typically reported in a “he said,” “she said” style that maintains the supposed objectivity of the reporter and media outlet while avoiding complex factual debates that could alienate readers.
When so many reporters are practicing this style of journalism, it should not be surprising that politicians have become adept at targeting its weaknesses. In All the President’s Spin, my Spinsanity co-editors Ben Fritz, Bryan Keefer, and I documented how the Bush administration relied on misleading half-truths and strategically ambiguous language to promote its agenda. Because few of these claims were outright falsehoods and debunking them often required detours into policy specifics, they were typically reported without challenge or in a “Bush says X, Democrats say Y” framework.
The conclusion to the book warns that Democrats were starting to embrace similar tactics. Reid’s attacks on Romney are a case in point. The Nevada senator is a canny politician who wants to help Democrats keep the media and public focused on Romney’s wealth. One angle of attack is Romney’s refusal to provide tax returns before 2010, which breaks a longstanding norm in presidential politics. Though many reporters pressed the GOP nominee for more information, Romney held fast and the story was starting to die down due to a lack of day-to-day news developments. The controversy over Reid’s claim has put it back in the news.
Unfortunately, Stein and Grim allowed HuffPost to serve as the delivery vehicle for Reid’s attack. As my CJR editors Liz Cox Barrett and Greg Marx have argued, the political costs of irresponsible accusations are low when “there are reporters willing to write up” such a speculative claim and “ensure its dissemination to a wider audience” in a neutrally framed article. Some disagree, arguing that HuffPost should have reported Reid’s accusations. For example, The Washington Post’s Erik Wemple defended Stein and Grim, stating that “the dissemination of Reid’s words is “responsible, compulsory. It would be a shame, after all, if Reid’s constituents passed ignorant of the evidentiary standards to which he subjects his mudslinging.”
There is a legitimate argument to be made for the necessity of publishing such an explosive accusation from an important public figure, but in that case Barrett and Marx correctly argue that the HuffPost reporters should “have foregrounded … the untrustworthiness of Reid’s account.” Neutral treatment of such claims is likely to reinforce the unfounded impression that the Majority Leader is trying to create. Consider, for instance, the contrast between the HuffPost story and an August 2 article by McClatchy’s William Douglas. As in my post on coverage of Maricopa County sheriff Joe Arpaio’s birtherism, I’ve highlighted credulous reporting in red and the portions of both stories that provide a critical perspective on Reid’s claims in green (click on the thumbnails below for larger images):
In comparison to McClatchy, HuffPost devotes far more space, including its headline and lede, to documenting Reid’s claim. It is true, of course, that Douglas had the luxury of writing his story later in the controversy, which allowed for more context and less emphasis on the details of Reid’s statement. But the timeline of the story does not abrogate HuffPost’s responsibility to provide context—indeed, as the launching pad for the smear, the obligation on Stein and Grim to question the evidentiary basis for the claim is arguably greater.
Using semantics to undermine factchecking


Wrong again, Brendan. The problem isn't that politifact had to prove a negative. The problem is poltifact asserted a positive, that Harry Reid was telling a pants on fire LIE.
When Romeny presents the evidence that Reid has (or was) told a lie, then the rating can be established.
God, the steps you people go through to make teh world a balanced place, I tells ya.
#1 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Tue 7 Aug 2012 at 01:12 PM
I toyed with the idea of not assigning a rating, since I had recently said I might withhold Pinocchios in the lingering question of when Romney stopped actively managing Bain Capital. But in that case, the evidence had become increasingly murky. With Reid, I believed it was important to assign a rating because he has offered absolutely no evidence to back of his claim (By contrast, the Obama people could point to SEC documents, PR releases etc re Romney and Bain.)
The ratings allow us to hold people to account. If we withhold ratings because a politician had made a charge and offered no evidence--and yet we can not conclusively disprove it because of the lack of evidence--that would only grant a license to say more outrageous things.
#2 Posted by Glenn Kessler, CJR on Tue 7 Aug 2012 at 01:34 PM
It's not outrageous to "claim that the wealthy Republican paid no federal income taxes for 10 years".
Tax evasion by the rich, especially by people who have hundreds of millions in their IRA, is epidemic.
The claim is not outrageous, this is:
"4. Many of the very richest pay no current income taxes at all.
John Paulson, the most successful hedge-fund manager of all, bet against the mortgage market one year and then bet with Glenn Beck in the gold market the next. Paulson made himself $9 billion in fees in just two years. His current tax bill on that $9 billion? Zero.
Congress lets hedge-fund managers earn all they can now and pay their taxes years from now.
In 2007, Congress debated whether hedge-fund managers should pay the top tax rate that applies to wages, bonuses and other compensation for their labors, which is 35 percent. That tax rate starts at about $300,000 of taxable income—not even pocket change to Paulson, but almost 12 years of gross pay to the median-wage worker.
The Republicans and a key Democrat, Sen. Charles Schumer of New York, fought to keep the tax rate on hedge-fund managers at 15 percent, arguing that the profits from hedge funds should be considered capital gains, not ordinary income, which got a lot of attention in the news.
What the news media missed is that hedge-fund managers don’t even pay 15 percent. At least, not currently. So long as they leave their money, known as “carried interest,” in the hedge fund, their taxes are deferred. They only pay taxes when they cash out, which could be decades from now for younger managers. How do these hedge-fund managers get money in the meantime? By borrowing against the carried interest, often at absurdly low rates—currently about 2 percent.
Lots of other people live tax-free, too. I have Donald Trump’s tax records for four years early in his career. He paid no taxes for two of those years. Big real-estate investors enjoy tax-free living under a 1993 law President Clinton signed. It lets “professional” real-estate investors use paper losses like depreciation on their buildings against any cash income, even if they end up with negative incomes like Trump.
Frank and Jamie McCourt, who own the Los Angeles Dodgers, have not paid any income taxes since at least 2004, their divorce case revealed. Yet they spent $45 million one year alone. How? They just borrowed against Dodger ticket revenue and other assets. To the IRS, they look like paupers.
In Wisconsin, Terrence Wall, who unsuccessfully sought the Republican nomination for U.S. Senate in 2010, paid no income taxes on as much as $14 million of recent income, his disclosure forms showed. Asked about his living tax-free while working people pay taxes, he had a simple response: Everyone should pay less."
So yeah, you shouldn't be rating any of this AT ALL until you have the verifiable information which Romney has in his possession.
That's a fact.
#3 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Tue 7 Aug 2012 at 02:54 PM
Brendan, I think you've made some reasonable points here about how critics shift the focus by attacking our ratings, but I think this episode falls far short of the over-the-top headline that this has been a "fiasco."
Indeed, this episode showcases the value of our unique form of accountability journalism. Even if you disagree with our rating, you are better informed about the utter lack of evidence to back up Reid's claim. We don't expect readers to agree with every rating we make, but our ratings prompt healthy discussion and make everyone better informed.
Our ratings are backed by journalistic research and are not at all "arbitrary," as you claim. Indeed, we publish the principles of our ratings on site so people can judge for themselves: http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2011/feb/21/principles-truth-o-meter/
We provide lengthy, in-depth fact-checks on PolitiFact and summarize them with useful ratings. We also list all our sources so you can judge for yourself whether you agree.
#4 Posted by Bill Adair, CJR on Tue 7 Aug 2012 at 02:55 PM
"The ratings allow us ...", as if the ratings, Glenn, were some artifact independent of your own opinion. In the instance of Mr. Romney's tenure at Bain, you made a judgement based on your own ignorance of material that had been circulating for a decade. The ratings don't allow you to do anything other than cloak your opinion behind a veneer of impartiality. "Based upon what I don't know, I'm going to call these people liars."
I'm awarding you four Magoos and a Nelson for mistaking much of what you see for something it isn't, and turning a blind eye to your own reflection.
#5 Posted by Weldon Berger, CJR on Tue 7 Aug 2012 at 02:57 PM
More Romney facts, by a tax expert journalist, in case you were interested:
http://blogs.reuters.com/david-cay-johnston/2012/01/20/the-burden-of-romneys-tax-returns/
#6 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Tue 7 Aug 2012 at 03:05 PM
It is just so damn shocking and disgusting that the GOP will tolerate and PROMOTE lies for Romney to put on air without any reprecussions but hits on someone who we all know is telling the truth!
Romney knowly has libeled himself with no recourse. I am so disallusioned at these pathetic attempts at journalism. Journalists have always protected their sources and this is NOT a crime. What Romney (Romneyhood) has done is illegal and should have consequences. Romney is an out and out liar and so is the GOP. If they cared about the country they would have passed the jobs bills that they are holding up in exchange for huge tax breaks for billoionaires.
Revolting.
#7 Posted by Joy Sayler, CJR on Tue 7 Aug 2012 at 03:48 PM
This controversy over Romney's tax returns has been going on for quite a while now, and still Romney hasn't produced them. Now Reid has raised the ante with what is in effect a double-dog dare. So NOW Romney has got Reid by the short hairs. All he has to do is release his tax returns and Reid will be crushed. But he's not yet doing that. And why wouldn't he? There can be only one reason. And because of that reason, if Romney doesn't release his tax returns, we no longer will need to see them. We will know what is in them.
#8 Posted by nimbleswitch, CJR on Tue 7 Aug 2012 at 03:57 PM
It's not accurate for Nyhan or the "fact checkers" to suggest there aren't tax experts who believe it's entirely possible that Romney has avoided a large amount of taxes for many years. Didn't anyone see this troubling piece by former Bush I Treasury official Michael Graetz? This part of what Graetz said has not been adequately explored by the media.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/31/opinion/the-mysteries-of-mitt-romneys-financial-records.html
Moreover, we have no clue whether Mr. Romney paid any gift tax on transfers, now valued at $100 million, to a trust he set up in 1995 for the benefit of his five sons. Until this year, the federal gift tax had a lifetime exemption of $1 million, and it taxed gifts in excess of that amount at rates between 29 and 44 percent. A gift of $100 million to one’s children could, therefore, require paying a tax of as much as $29 million to $44 million.
But every good tax professional knows that gift tax returns are rarely audited, except after the transferor’s death. And normally the I.R.S. cannot challenge such a return after three years from its filing. But if the values of the gifts were not properly appraised and disclosed on Mr. Romney’s gift tax returns, a challenge may still be possible. If he did not file any gift tax return, he would still be liable for the tax, plus interest and penalties.
#9 Posted by Harris Meyer, CJR on Tue 7 Aug 2012 at 04:01 PM
This controversy over Romney's tax returns has been going on for quite a while now, and still Romney hasn't produced them. Now Reid has raised the ante with what is in effect a double-dog dare. So NOW Romney has got Reid by the short hairs. All he has to do is release his tax returns and Reid will be crushed. But he's not yet doing that. And why wouldn't he? There can be only one reason: Romney knows his tax returns will politically destroy him. And because of that reason, if Romney doesn't release his tax returns, we no longer will need to see them. We will know what is in them.
#10 Posted by nimbleswitch, CJR on Tue 7 Aug 2012 at 04:07 PM
Discussing Harry Reid's claim without a scathingly honest understanding of modern-day politics and media is like asking Bristol Palin to hold your wallet because her mom seems nice -- a risk only the ignorant would take.
Let's be grown-ups. In the worlds of politics and media, there is no "right" and wrong," only what one can get away with.
It does not matter these days if there's a virtual encyclopedia of evidence backing up your accusation (as in the case of global warming) or if it came from some anonymous nobody you met once (as in the case of virtually everything that comes out of Michele Bachmann's venal mouth).
Furthing spicing this whole "Reid Rides Romney" meme is the fact that Reid himself is a Mormon -- an organization second only to our government as a Machiavellian machine -- and also by the fact that the attack is so devastatingly "un-Reid-like."
But what's REALLY fascinating is that, with this recent claim, Reid is among the very few Democrats willing to "go rogue" -- and Sarah Palin's catch-phrase essentially translates as "say whatever you want regardless of factual evidence, personal ethics or sanity."
Though thus far entirely baseless, Reid's accusation -- and, equally important, the fact that he's sticking to his guns -- is nothing less than a brilliant political maneuver ... IF it succeeds in breathing new (or any?) life into Democrats who have been fighting Republican misdeeds with all the dedication and effectiveness of crash dummies. (Or, as one wag put it, "We'll be lucky if we can rekindle their APATHY !")
In other words, if Reid's move signals that America's Left is finally going to play by the rules of the Right, it could generate something of a groundswell of support among the many disgruntled Obamanites .
There has, after all, thus far there's been a staggering disparity in fighting styles. The list of Republicans who've made outrageously untrue accusations truly dwarfs the number of Democrats who use such tactics ... n'est pas ?
Observing and commenting on politics these days is like color commentary at some ancient Roman Coliseum slaughter -- enjoy the gore and forget that what's really at stake are your rights.
#11 Posted by Nero Fiddler, CJR on Tue 7 Aug 2012 at 05:31 PM
"The ratings allow us to hold people to account. If we withhold ratings because a politician had made a charge and offered no evidence--and yet we can not conclusively disprove it because of the lack of evidence--that would only grant a license to say more outrageous things."
This is a weak defense by Glenn Kesslier of "assigning ratings." The fact is that there are many different types of problematic statements by politicians. Some are deliberate lies. Some are unsubstantiated assertions. Some are debatable interpretations of evidence. Some are honest mistakes. Some are ignorant or reckless statements with no effort to ascertain the facts. I'm sure people can think of others.
Reid's statement about Romney's taxes seems to me an educated guess, like disseminating a rumor or piece of gossip that you have reason to suspect is true. It may be a bit reckless but it tracks with what we know about some of Romney previous financial behavior, such as his work as head of the Marriott audit committee.
My big problem with the "fact checking" enterprise is that it while it engages in useful provision of information in the text of the articles, it uses the often-stretched "pants on fire" or "Pinocchio" methodology to basically grab public attention for dubious ratings. You can't legitimately apply such ratings to all the types of problematic statements, such as debatable interpretations or honest mistakes.
The grossest example of this was PolitiFact's "lie of the year" designation for the Democrats' entirely supportable argument that the Ryan House budget plan would end Medicare. Henry Aaron, Theda Skocpol, and many other Medicare and health care experts agreed with the Democrats' assessment. One can disagree with that interpretation of the Ryan/Republican plan but there's no defensible way to call that a "lie."
Kesslier's statement makes it clear that his views the fact-checking enterprise as going beyond ascertaining truth to the best of his ability. He wants to make moral judgments and change how politicians do business. I don't think journalistic fact checkers have the standing or wisdom to do the latter. Just tell us what the best evidence shows and let readers be the judge of who's morally culpable.
#12 Posted by Harris Meyer, CJR on Tue 7 Aug 2012 at 06:20 PM
The liberals really, really, really don't like it when the fact-checkers call a "pants on fire" Democrat on the carpet.
You know what I just heard? Some guy on the radio said Obama surrendered his American citizenship to attend school in Indonesia.
Yep. Some guy really did say it. So now it's up to Obama to release his school records, right?
You know what I just heard? Some guy on the internet said Obama surrendered his law license because he got himself into ethical trouble. So now it's up to Obama to release his bar records, right?
Cause "some guy" said.
You calling "some guy" a liar? You can't say he's liar without Obama proving it!
You silly leftists need to to grow up. Seriously.
#13 Posted by padikiller, CJR on Tue 7 Aug 2012 at 06:37 PM
"You know what I just heard? Some guy on the radio said Obama surrendered his American citizenship to attend school in Indonesia.You know what I just heard? Some guy on the radio said Obama surrendered his American citizenship to attend school in Indonesia.
Yep. Some guy really did say it. So now it's up to Obama to release his school records, right?"
People like that make statements like this ALL THE TIME. Hell, there's a rumor that Barack Obama had contact with known radical William Ayers. If there is a fact based way to debunk these outrageous rumors, I expect Glen Kessler and Bill Adair to do so.
They did not do this here. There are no public facts about this case yet which prove or disprove the veracity of Reid's source's claim. Politifact ruled Reid had his pants on fire based on 'likely' information which is not likely upon perusal.
If you cannot establish whether Harry Reid heard this information from a source or made it up then you cannot call Reid a liar.
If you cannot establish whether Romney deferred his federal income taxes for ten years then you cannot call Reid's source a liar.
You did, Glen, because you don't like the tone of the claim. That's not your job. Get your facts straight.
#14 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Tue 7 Aug 2012 at 07:43 PM
As someone who does not find himself outraged at Harry Reid's recent accusations I'd like to respond to a couple of Brendan Nyhan's points.
But as I wrote on Twitter, I can’t imagine that Reid defenders would rise to defend a public figure who was making claims about, say, President Obama’s college transcripts based on an anonymous tip (see, e.g., Donald Trump’s tweets yesterday).
On the contrary I would completely support the right of a public figure to make such claims. If Mitch McConnell wants to come out tomorrow and say, "An old Harvard classmate of Obama's told me that Obama got all F's his Junior year," I would say go for it. Let the public be the judge of whether these statements are out of bounds or not.
If the public were outraged at Reid's claims he would most likely have backtracked and the Obama administration would have distanced itself from them. If the substance of the claims stretched the boundaries of plausibility they likewise would have been ignored.
The story has "legs" because most people assume there is a kernel of truth to what Reid is saying, even if the particulars aren't exactly right. Based on the ferocity of Romney's response to the accusations and his highly unusual choice not to be more forthcoming with his tax returns they can hardly be blamed for entertaining this suspicion.
I believe Reid's actions to be defensible because I think they are targeted towards achieving a public good, the customary deeper disclosure of a presidential candidate's financial history, and because I don't feel they overstep any moral bounds (I use the term in its loosest Washingtonian sense).
The latter is why I also dispute Nyhan's comparison of this episode to a hypothetical one in which Reid accuses McCain of being senile or of having suffered a recurrence of cancer. Such accusations would clearly be cruel in a way that Reid's are not. Romney is an extremely wealthy, privileged man; making an accusation that such a man paid no taxes through accounting smoke and mirrors is hardly comparable to questioning a senior citizen's mental capacities or dredging up a painful, personal history of illness. One is hitting someone where they're weak and one is the opposite (unless perhaps you're speaking politically).
I reailze Nyhan's story is more about the journalistic challenges of covering such a political episode, but since he did at one point get into the substance of the claims themselves I thought I'd respond.
#15 Posted by landow, CJR on Tue 7 Aug 2012 at 08:41 PM
Required reading
http://www.esquire.com/_mobile/blogs/politics/harry-reid-tax-returns-11446038
"neither am I morally outraged that Reid is playing the kind of politics he is playing with this. That is because, when I consider what he's doing, I do not think of Joe McCarthy. I think of Vince Foster, and I am conspicuously unmoved."
#16 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Wed 8 Aug 2012 at 08:09 AM
I want to hear when Politifact called a Republican Pants on Fire for such a claim.
That's the problem here: Different scales for the different parties.
#17 Posted by Crissa, CJR on Wed 8 Aug 2012 at 11:48 AM
The truth is out there. Either Reid talked to a former Bain exec or he lied. Either Romney paid income taxes for ten years or he didn't. The problem with fact-checkers is that they are concerned with process and tone rather than truth. Real journalism requires hard-sourced information such as Reid's office/phone logs or Romney's tax returns. Everything else is speculation.
What if John Doe, former Bain exec, provided documentary proof that Romney structured his tax exposure so that he didn't pay income taxes for several (even ten) years. While not likely, this scenario is certainly possible. How does the credibility of the fact-checker endure when they call someone a 'liar, liar pants on fire" in a situation where the subject told the truth?
#18 Posted by danimal, CJR on Wed 8 Aug 2012 at 01:03 PM
To be clear, the long cite by Thimbles above is from an article I wrote (Thimbles does include a link), but I see at least one poster mistakenly indicates Thimbles is the source.
Glenn Kessler, in my view, has muddied the issues.
First, it is entirely possible that Romney could have gone years without paying taxes (see quotes material posted by Thimbles.)
Second, Sen. Reid says he has a source, though I think it is a thin reed (yes, bad joke) on which his statements rest.
Third, the SEC documents are not so murky. Some long talks with professors of corporate and compensation law, reading the statutes and regulations and other deep work would reveal that.
Fourth, journalists need to parse very carefully just what Romney (and McCain) have said. They have made classic nondenial denials on taxes, as I pointed out Tuesday night on The Ed Show starting at six minutes in:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/45755822/vp/48561271?__utma=5875948.498858763.1344467050.1344467050.1344467050.1&__utmb=5875948.2.10.1344467050&__utmc=5875948&__utmx=-&__utmz=5875948.1344467050.1.1.utmcsr=yahoo%7Cutmccn=(organic)%7Cutmcmd=organic%7Cutmctr=Ed%20Show%20Msnbc&__utmv=5875948.%7C8=Earned%20By=cable%7Cmsnbc%20tv%7Cthe%20ed%20show%7Cedshow=1%5E12=Landing%20Content=Original=1%5E13=Landing%20Hostname=ed.msnbc.com=1%5E30=Visit%20Type%20to%20Content=Earned%20to%20Original=1&__utmk=149206322#48561271
#19 Posted by David Cay Johnston, CJR on Wed 8 Aug 2012 at 07:07 PM
"I see at least one poster mistakenly indicates Thimbles is the source."
First, if I was too ambiguious about my source, I appologize. That was completely unintentional as I've respected your work for a long time and I have no desire to take credit for anyone else's words. Hell, I don't even take credit for my own, Thimbles is a nobody.
Second, though "it is entirely possible that Romney could have gone years without paying taxes" I think reporters should make clear that no one, not Harry Reid nor anyone else, is accusing Romney of evading State, municipal, or FICA taxes. The level of exemptions and enforcement of those taxes on everyone are different than the level of exemptions and enforcement of federal income taxes on investment income and the wealth of the very rich, as we've learned from your work on the subject. When we discuss the inspecific claim "Romney might not have paid any taxes" the scolders find it much easier to guffaw than when we make the specific claim "Romney might not have paid federal income tax. In fact many rich people who run private equity funds don't. The guy deducts 70 grand for his horse, ya think he's got a problem taking advantage of the same tax laws as his hedge fund buddies?"
For whatever reason, the press really wants to smack the democrats over this issue without evidence. They seem to really not like a democrat using a a republican tactic.
Therefore it is important that it is clear the tax Reid was talking about was the federal income tax and that people in Romney's profession evade that all the time. If Romney doesn't want to show his tax returns like every other candidate then this is a plausible reason why.
Nobody is saying it is the reason, but if it isn't then what is? That's what we should be asking Romney.
Instead we're talking about Harry Reid?
This is weird behavior on the part of everyone involved here.
#20 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Wed 8 Aug 2012 at 08:12 PM
@Harris Meyer,
Liz Barrett and I opened our Dart to HuffPost with a discussion of the Graetz piece, in which we wrote "these are legitimate questions" and "further digging by campaign reporters is entirely warranted." Brendan links to our piece in the first main section above.
#21 Posted by Greg Marx, CJR on Thu 9 Aug 2012 at 12:03 PM
It's amusing that Harry Reid is getting slammed by reporters for doing exactly the same thing that reporters do all the time: quoting an anonymous source.
#22 Posted by SqueakyRat, CJR on Thu 9 Aug 2012 at 02:10 PM
You're not alone:
http://www.eschatonblog.com/2012/08/speculation.html
"It cracks me up to see Republicans and the pundits who love them waggle their fingers at Harry Reid for relying on an anonymous source to make a claim easily refuted by the target. It's also pretty fucking funny to see them talk about going beyond the pale in political discourse. These were, after all, the guys who impeached Clinton for a blow job, having accused him of being a cocaine smuggling murderer."
http://www.boomantribune.com/story/2012/8/2/20523/87732
"But, of course, as even Steve M. acknowledges, Reid's charges aren't really anything like the kinds of crap the right slings at Democratic leaders every day of the week. Let me try to give an illustration of my point.
Mitt Romney isn't really a Mormon. He's an atheist who only went along with his father's faith so he could duck the Vietnam draft. He didn't actually try to convert anyone when he was in France either. In reality, he spent all his time in Monte Carlo gambling and buying high-end hookers...
Now, if we started telling these stories to people, and a substantial percentage of the population started to actually believe these stories, and if congressmen humored and even encouraged the people who believed these stories, and if media figures talked about these stories, and if Congress actually had hearings about some of these stories, then Mitt Romney would know what it's like to be treated like a Democrat."
When it's a democrat, it's irresponsible not to speculate.
#23 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Thu 9 Aug 2012 at 02:40 PM
Crissa wrote: "I want to hear when Politifact called a Republican Pants on Fire for such a claim."
padikiller responds: I want to hear when a Republican said "some guy" told him that Democrat didn't pay taxes.
#24 Posted by padikiller, CJR on Thu 9 Aug 2012 at 03:23 PM
@David Cay Johnston
How about correcting a materially false statement in THIS article of yours?
You wrote:
"Criminal investigations now hardly matter, because most of the frauds took place before 2008. Under the five-year statute of limitations for most federal frauds, governments let the crooks run out the clock"
The FACT of the matter is that federal criminal fraud prosecutions are subject to a 10 year period of limitation, and not a 5 year period.
This error provides the basis of an important premise in your article and therefore needs correction.
#25 Posted by padikiller, CJR on Thu 9 Aug 2012 at 03:54 PM
You'll have to forgive padi, Mr. Johnston. He and I don't see eye to eye on everything.
And I kinda got your work involved in one of ">our dustups.
Sorry about that.
#26 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Thu 9 Aug 2012 at 04:18 PM
Kessler just can't stop trying to choose to placate right wing by chalking up negatives for the other side.
A Fact Check site should check facts. There was nothing to fact check in Reid's comment. Only thing they could have done was state repeating an un-sourced claim is not fair. Gee-- don't journalists do that all the time?
Sure, it's unfair but without Romney giving us any information to weigh against a claim that Reid only passed on there is little to say.
I suggest Kessler get out of the Fact Check business and become a full-time opinion columnist as that's obviously what he wants to be.
#27 Posted by Eclectic Obsvr, CJR on Thu 9 Aug 2012 at 04:26 PM
"And I kinda got your work involved in one of our dustups. Sorry about that."
Oooo. Oooo.
http://www.cjr.org/the_kicker/tucker_carlson_on_the_virtue_o.php#comment-62110
Cgi, link messer upper. A POX ON YOU.
#28 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Thu 9 Aug 2012 at 04:36 PM
Meanwhile:
"Wrong again, Brendan. The problem isn't that politifact had to prove a negative. The problem is poltifact asserted a positive, that Harry Reid was telling a pants on fire LIE."
My mistake:
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/08/07/1117676/-Politifact-says-Pants-on-Fire-doesn-t-mean-lied
"We never said "lie." We said Reid provided no evidence and our reporting found no evidence."
Sorry Mr. Kessler. I assumed "Pants on Fire!" meant someone had told a lie. This pedantry stuff is complicated.
#29 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Thu 9 Aug 2012 at 05:07 PM
Poor Mr. Kessler. I'll bet he is praying that Reid's source is wrong. I don't know why Mr. Kessler would want to stake his reputation, once again, on the honesty and integrity of Mitt Romney. He was already badly burned doing the same thing only last month, to much ridicule. At least he had the guts to belatedly revamp his rating.
Poltifact -- they are already a laughingstock, completely without credibility.The only people who quote Poltifact are journos who are too lazy or too indifferent to do their own work.
This is political journalism today. Interesting poll out that public opinion of political journalism is lower even than Congress, which rates just below syphilis and Fidel Castro on the approval scale.
But Mr. Kessler still seems earnest. What he isn't willing to do is actual hard work of fact finding, as detailed above by Thimbles and the estimable David Cay Johnston. These two have done the work of explaining, with documentation, just how plausible it is that a very wealthy man could legally escape any federal income tax burden. Examples of rich people who have done exactly that.
Mr. Kessler? He was more interested in giving us his opinion and assigning arbitrary boundaries of political discourse than to do any hard journalistic stuff. Different, of course for Democrats than Republicans. He doesn't bother to catalog all of Republican lies -- there are too many. Thankfully, we have someone doing that here:
Chronicling Mitt's Mendacity, Vol. XXVIII - The Maddow Blog
You can find links to document everything Mr. Benen says. Mr. Benen does a much better job than the so-called "fact-checkers."
#30 Posted by James, CJR on Fri 10 Aug 2012 at 12:39 AM
Man!
Nothing burns liberal britches like a fact-checker nailing a Democrat!
Facts are to liberalism as flashlights are to cockroaches.
#31 Posted by padikiller, CJR on Fri 10 Aug 2012 at 01:15 PM
"Facts are to liberalism as flashlights are to cockroaches."
If that's the way you feel, then why don't you use some sometime.
#32 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Fri 10 Aug 2012 at 06:38 PM
Some Guy said Obama ate dogs...
Oh, wait, That was Obama...
Some Guy said that Obama committed state and federal felonies by abusing cocaine...
Oh, wait. That was Obama...
Some Guy said that he would shut down Guantanamo 100 days into his administration..
Oh wait... That was Obama....
How are these FACTS, Thimbo?...
#33 Posted by padikiller, CJR on Fri 10 Aug 2012 at 10:27 PM
"Some Guy said Obama ate dogs..."
Yeah, they're delicacies. Nummy.
"Some Guy said that Obama committed state and federal felonies by abusing cocaine..."
That would make two presidents in a row! Ps using isn't abusing
"Some Guy said that he would shut down Guantanamo 100 days into his administration.."
But that would bring the terrists' over there over here! And somebody's party refused to approve the funding it would take to do that! What would that party be?
Conservatives, conservatives, delicious blue dog and red state conservatives!
#34 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Fri 10 Aug 2012 at 11:47 PM
Thimbles wrote: That would make two presidents in a row!
padikiller wonders: How so?
Do you have any fact-thingies to back up this claim?
#35 Posted by padikiller, CJR on Sat 11 Aug 2012 at 11:45 AM
Thimbles previously wrote: That would make two presidents in a row [abusing cocaine]!
padikiller wondered: How so?
Do you have any fact-thingies to back up this claim?
Thimbles responded: _____________ (crickets chirping).
padikiller notes: Didn't think so. As usual, Thimbles is just blithering.
#36 Posted by padikiller, CJR on Sun 12 Aug 2012 at 01:46 PM
Oh, sorry. Did you really think the escapades of a known and admitted substance abuser were so important that I had to rush back to the computer to hash them out?
Of course the difference between Bush and Obama is that one was always a coward about his past.
http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2008/05/mcclellan-on-bu/
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/john-seery/the-bush-cocaine-chronicl_b_37786.html
Obama admits using cocaine, Bush "just can't seem to remember, wild parties and all".
PS. Don't care either way. What made Bush a bad leader was his bad leadership, not that he was an awol drunk before his daddy's connections put him in the whitehouse.
#37 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Sun 12 Aug 2012 at 08:53 PM
Why is this article full of links (that don't work) to a site that has closed down -- "Spinsanity." ??
You may not like what Reid asserted, but that's what Mitt Romney gets by thinking he plays by different rules than lesser pols who have learned to tell the public about their earnings. If he wants to refute Reid, release the taxes. There's no journalistic malpractice in reporting Reid's charge so long as you point out that Reid has no evidence. Mitt is hiding the evidence, no way or another.
#38 Posted by janinsanfran, CJR on Sun 19 Aug 2012 at 01:52 AM
Romney's whole rationale for running for President is that he is a businessman who can turnaround the U.S. economy. His success at Bain, his profiting on others' bankruptcies, his avoiding (not evading) taxes... these are all his main qualifications! His running from them instead of ON them is political cowardice, as he likely believes that a full-throated defense of such practices - his full-throated defense of the current American capital/tax system - would be roundly rejected by a vast majority of voters. That is his main problem, not any of the above.
#39 Posted by Allan Hoving, CJR on Sat 25 Aug 2012 at 07:32 AM