These two graphs from an NYT story this weekend pretty much show why Barack Obama is going to be a one-termer:
Mr. Obama’s senior adviser, David Plouffe, and his chief of staff, William M. Daley, want him to maintain a pragmatic strategy of appealing to independent voters by advocating ideas that can pass Congress, even if they may not have much economic impact. These include free trade agreements and improved patent protections for inventors.
But others, including Gene Sperling, Mr. Obama’s chief economic adviser, say public anger over the debt ceiling debate has weakened Republicans and created an opening for bigger ideas like tax incentives for businesses that hire more workers, according to Congressional Democrats who share that view. Democrats are also pushing the White House to help homeowners facing foreclosure.
If the Times is right, and there’s no reason to doubt them with Obama’s track record, his “radical” option is proposing some tax incentives for businesses that hire more workers. This in an economy that’s had 9 percent-plus unemployment and 15 percent to 17 percent U-6 unemployment for three years, and which may be tipping back into recession.
Free trade agreements, based on their track record, will likely drain jobs. And patent protections for inventors? Political gold!
— About those foreclosures: You can’t fix the economy until that problem goes away. And The Huffington Post’s Arthur Delaney reported last week that HAMP trial modifications have all but dried up, hitting their lowest monthly total since April 2009, shortly after the Obama administration’s poorly performing program started.
Since the Home Affordable Modification Program launched in the months following President Obama’s inauguration, nearly 870,000 struggling homeowners have been kicked out of the initiative, while just 657,044 remain in permanent modifications.
For eligible borrowers, HAMP lowers monthly payments to 31 percent of their monthly income by reducing interest rates, extending the term of a loan and temporarily forbearing payments. If a borrower successfully makes reduced trial payments for three months, the modification is supposed to become permanent — but in its early history the program has been notorious for its drawn-out and often hopeless trial mods.
— Matthew Goldstein of Reuters steps back a bit and marvels at how the narrative of the crisis shifted:
Somewhere, somehow, the narrative of the worst financial crisis since the Great Depression changed. Not too long ago, all the talk was about exotic securities backed by crappy mortgages, inadequate bank regulation, excessive CEO pay and burdensome consumer debt. Now the conversation in Washington and Wall Street is more focused on overly generous pensions for public employees and the levels of government spending on the poor, for education, new roads and middle class health benefits.
This isn’t too say that runaway government deficits aren’t a problem that need to be addressed-most likely with a combination of tax hikes and spending cuts. But the financial crisis didn’t begin in summer 2007 with concern about government spending…
The truth is that much of the current government debt crisis is simply another by product of the financial crisis-a crisis that we all played a role in bringing about. So if we are to get out of this financial slump anytime soon, it’s important to stay focused on how we got here.
Sorry to be cynical about the “why,” but there’s a lot more money behind one argument than the other. It bankrolls legions of flacks, think tank fellows, media corporations, political action committees, and lobbyists who have done a tremendous job of shifting the narrative.

In an age where the resting place of noblesse oblige is beneath an exceptionally exclusive ballroom, and where testosterone is king, don't ever apologize for the teuth being cynical.
#1 Posted by Jonathan, CJR on Mon 15 Aug 2011 at 09:43 PM
The answer is for the audience to choose media that isn't going along with the narrative shift.
For instance:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-XT7UMJHNE
and
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sgo2PJSYZCc
People have to differentiate between "mass" media and informed media, because the organizations which produce false narratives are going to do so as long as the falsehoods it promotes are advantageous and the audience tunes in.
We can't change the advantage, but we can affect the audience.
#2 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Tue 16 Aug 2011 at 02:01 AM
PS. why were the tea party town halls covered obsessively two years ago and yet the people who are upset with entitlement cuts to pay for lowered taxes are kinda blacked out?
http://digbysblog.blogspot.com/2011/08/hidden-rebellion-continues-by-david.html
You know, it sure doesn't sound like the narrative is penetrating to deep. I suspect the media might want to pick up a narrative that relates to their audiences' actual experiences of late.
And those experiences are shaped by sacrifice by everyone they know except for the privileged few who are rubbing it in their faces by asking for tax holidays and reduced tax rates.
#3 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Tue 16 Aug 2011 at 02:08 AM
The "privileged" in our society are mostly the government workers who have seen their pay increase at more than twice the rate of the private sector during the "Obama Recovery". And the leeches who fleece disability, SSI, unemployment and other welfare programs at taxpayer expense.
As for the Tea Party v. Welfare Leech comparison, you won't see welfare recipients flooding Washington in peaceful protest, as the Tea Partiers did.
Instead, the first time the first of the month checks don't hit the mailboxes in the trailer parks or the projects, you'll see riots and mayhem than make London look tame.
We're dealing with a commie/liberal created underclass that will burn, steal and even kill before it will actually do any work.
The permanent solution to most of our societal problems involves making these leeches do some damned work through free market forces. Work is the only way to advance society. PERIOD.
If these mooches have to choose between going hungry and working, most of them will choose working. The ones who are able to work, but refuse to, will go hungry. The ones who are unable to work and who lack private resources or support should be cared for in government institutions at taxpayer expense.
The solutions are simple and could be implemented tomorrow:
1. Drug, alcohol and nicotine testing for all welfare recipients. Use and lose (benefits). You want a cold beer or a cigarette? Get a damned job.
2. Bulk, dry food for food stamp recipients. Beans, rice, powdered milk, cheese, etc. You want steak and Ho Ho's? Get a damned job.
3. Norplant and tattoo checks and piercing checks for all Medicaid recipients. You want to procreate or balance out your tats? Get a damned job.
4. Weekly housing inspection in all public housing. No guests. Period. Ever. You want a booty call from your man after he meets with his probation officer? Get a damned job.
5. Investigations of every single disability recipient and revocation of benefits for those who commit fraud. You want to work "under the table" and suck down welfare? Go to jail.
These simple steps would fix most of what's wrong in our society.
#4 Posted by padikiller, CJR on Tue 16 Aug 2011 at 11:25 AM
[These two graphs from an NYT story this weekend pretty much show why Barack Obama is going to be a one-termer:]
Ryan, You are far too ready to give up. Even if Obama could govern more effectively, he is still a "formidable" opponent in a campaign.
Never discount the opposition. The more the Republicans sense victory, the more radical they will be tempted to become. Invasion of Obama's campaign events by raving tea party true believers could have shockingly perverse consequences. For the Reckless Party.
Besides, if reality were as predictable as you think, we could just mail it in.
#5 Posted by Clayton Burns, CJR on Tue 16 Aug 2011 at 01:48 PM
Padikiller, you just proposed an enormous expansion in government spending and public sector jobs to carry out all those investigations and inspections. Keynes lives! Obama would be a shoo-in for reelection if he actually put that many people to work even if it was for something other than your plan to sniff the panties of every unfortunate in the country.
#6 Posted by Weldon Berger, CJR on Tue 16 Aug 2011 at 09:15 PM
@Weldon:
The people are already in place to administer each one of my suggestions. The social workers charged with qualifying food stamps, Medicaid and section 8 housing can administer drug and nicotine tests. Restricting food stamps is a matter of writing down the UPC codes of the permissible products and inputting them into the point of sale systems of grocery stores. Public housing units already have inspectors.
#7 Posted by padikiller, CJR on Tue 16 Aug 2011 at 09:32 PM
@padikiller
O no, my friend, you're in waaaaay over your head on this one. I am intimately familiar with several of those programs. Housing authority inspectors in LA, for instance, average about 15 inspections a day to get all of the city's Section 8 and publicly owned units inspected once a year. Even assuming they're all the lazy bastards you seem to think public sectors workers are, which of course most of them aren't, you'll still have to increase their ranks quite dramatically if you want weekly inspections--at least twenty-fold and, realistically, much more. That there's a bunch of money.
As for drug and nicotine tests--even if there were enough personnel to deal with administering all those tests without interfering with the delivery of benefits, somebody still has to pay for the analysis. It won't be the recipients because they're, you know--poor. And I'm sure you'll want frequent tests to ensure that these crafty freeloaders aren't putting one over on the taxpayers. Should we have the bill for those 50 million or so tests sent directly to you?
Food stamps: The majority of food stamp beneficiaries are kids. Kids need fresh food. Period. Do you want to pay for inspectors to hang out at cash registers checking to see whether or not somebody has kids before they can buy fresh food? No problem, we'll put it on your tab.
And on it goes. With respect to Medicaid: You really want to go all Stalin or Mao and start dictating who gets to have kids? You would prefer people to have their inevitable children without recourse to medical care so they then incur the enormous pan-societal costs that result from kids born to and growing up in those conditions?
Clearly you're operating from a pretty delusional understanding of who is actually enrolled in these programs, but even so you should employ some internally consistent logic with respect to the distribution costs for the changes you propose.
#8 Posted by Weldon Berger, CJR on Tue 16 Aug 2011 at 10:42 PM
Weldon, don't argue with padi; he knows everything already, including that you are a liberal/commie/pinko/freeloader.
#9 Posted by Edward Ericson Jr., CJR on Wed 17 Aug 2011 at 11:01 AM
Hi, Edward. I'm no liberal, but padikiller has got me dead to rights on the commie/pinko/freeloader front if that's what he thinks; it's only that I'm a numerate one.
I've seen his comments here. That's why I was so startled to see him support those epic government spending hikes and the kind of massively intrusive social engineering efforts that principled, true-blue conservatives usually abhor. So I had to mention it.
#10 Posted by Weldon Berger, CJR on Wed 17 Aug 2011 at 01:30 PM
LOL...
Yeah...
Piss testing welfare recipients would break the bank. Not dooable...
You guys are silly.
Nobody's dictating who gets to have kids, Weldon. If you want to procreate GET A DAMNED JOB and procreate to your little heart's content. Children are not "inevitable", despite your absurd contention to the contrary. Why should the taxpayers pay for a welfare mooch to get pregnant and produce more welfare mooches?
Fresh food for kids? You're kidding right? Since when are Ho Ho's and potato chips "fresh food"? Or Pepsis? Or TV dinners?
Of course the bill for NOT having the welfare mooches tested for nicotine, drug and alcohol use is currently being sent to the American taxpayers (and their children and grandchildren). We are currently subsidizing millions and millions of dollars of illegal drug use, tobacco use, alcohol use and gambling.
Ask your local crack dealer how much business he gets on the first of the month..
Testing these unproductive leeches would cost almost nothing and removing those who choose to get high or light up on the taxpayer's nickel would not only save gobs of money, but more importantly do something positive for society.
#11 Posted by padikiller, CJR on Wed 17 Aug 2011 at 05:53 PM
Ah, I see now. Big Government is for the poor. Documented Bank fraud? Not a problem, we're never going to see it or acknowledge it exists. We'll just bail out the bankrupt banks because the alternative is taking them over and breaking them up - and that would be SOCIALISM.
On the other hand, potential welfare fraud? CRANK UP THE POLICE STATE! Demand people sacrifice all their freedoms of they ever require the services of the state.
Bankers can keep abusing their hookers and blow while on the dole because their special, but ordinary people on UI? They are not. Man I could almost get behind padi's ideas if he were more consistent.
#12 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Thu 18 Aug 2011 at 01:57 AM
More commie/liberal misrepresentation.
Let me state this again..
Any documented bank fraud (or any fraud) should be punished to fullest extent of the law. PERIOD.
I don't know how much clearer I can make it than that.
Nobody is demanding a sacrifice of "all freedoms" from people who "require" services from the state.
If you have money for cigarettes and beer, then you obviously don't require the services of the state. If you have money for steak and Ho Ho's, then you obviously don't require the services of the state. If you have money for tats and body piercings, you obviously don't require the services of the state.
And if you want to reproduce, you should be responsible for providing for your offspring.
WHY should the taxpayers fund welfare to subsidize drug use? Or tobacco use? Or alcohol use? Or gambling? Or tattoos? Or procreation?
HUH?
Why should the taxpayers fund steak, lobster, or Ho Ho's for food stamp recipients?
HUH?
The people who truly "require" services from the state - the truly disabled who lack private resources - should be cared for in government institutions.
The rest of the lazy leeches should get a damned job and do some damned work!
#13 Posted by padikiller, CJR on Thu 18 Aug 2011 at 12:37 PM
More commie/liberal misrepresentation.
Let me state this again..
Any documented bank fraud (or any fraud) should be punished to fullest extent of the law. PERIOD.
I don't know how much clearer I can make it than that.
Nobody is demanding a sacrifice of "all freedoms" from people who "require" services from the state.
If you have money for cigarettes and beer, then you obviously don't require the services of the state. If you have money for steak and Ho Ho's, then you obviously don't require the services of the state. If you have money for tats and body piercings, you obviously don't require the services of the state.
And if you want to reproduce, you should be responsible for providing for your offspring.
WHY should the taxpayers fund welfare to subsidize drug use? Or tobacco use? Or alcohol use? Or gambling? Or tattoos? Or procreation?
HUH?
Why should the taxpayers fund steak, lobster, or Ho Ho's for food stamp recipients?
HUH?
The people who truly "require" services from the state - the truly disabled who lack private resources - should be cared for in government institutions.
The rest of the lazy leeches should get a damned job and do some damned work!
#14 Posted by padikiller, CJR on Thu 18 Aug 2011 at 12:46 PM
Padikiller, look: Your understanding of poverty and social safety net programs, and for that matter people, is so limited and skewed as to be useless. The lizard brain sound bites of which you're so fond have the advantage of simplicity by virtue of being essentially thoughtless. Responding to them in a way you might understand isn't simple, and isn't worth the time it takes. Cheers ...
#15 Posted by Weldon Berger, CJR on Thu 18 Aug 2011 at 05:44 PM
padikiller asked: "WHY should the taxpayers fund welfare to subsidize drug use? Or tobacco use? Or alcohol use? Or gambling? Or tattoos? Or procreation? Why should the taxpayers fund steak, lobster, or Ho Ho's for food stamp recipients?"
Weldon responded (paraphrasing): "Nanny nanny boo boo"
padikiller queries: Anyone else of the commie/liberal persuasion able (or willing) to answer these simple questions?
HUH?
#16 Posted by padikiller, CJR on Thu 18 Aug 2011 at 06:18 PM
On a more general note...
What good does welfare do for society, period?
I mean.. If the commie/liberal justification for welfare had merit - namely that welfare somehow elevates the general human condition - then we should expect to see less of it every year, on average.
Just the opposite is the case - Welfare rolls have expanded over the last 80 years and society has suffered as a consequence, A completely dependent underclass has been formed to suck up commie/liberal handouts. Schools suck. Inner cities look like Dresden, circa 1945. The "poor" are ignorant, obese and lazy. 17% of black males over 20 are unemployed. One in three black males between 20 and 29 are in jail, on parole or on probation.
What good has come of this stupidity?
#17 Posted by padikiller, CJR on Thu 18 Aug 2011 at 10:10 PM
"WHY should the taxpayers fund welfare to subsidize drug use? Or tobacco use? Or alcohol use? Or gambling? Or tattoos? Or procreation? Why should the taxpayers fund steak, lobster, or Ho Ho's for food stamp recipients?"
I agree! All those bankers and hedge fund beneficiaries of government help should have all of their behaviors strictly examined by the tools of the police state! Why should we be subsidizing their drug use!? Or alcohol use!? They sure eat alot more steak and lobster than your average food stamp recipient. Revolution!
#18 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Thu 18 Aug 2011 at 11:37 PM
"Just the opposite is the case - Welfare rolls have expanded over the last 80 years and society has suffered as a consequence, A completely dependent underclass has been formed to suck up commie/liberal handouts. Schools suck. Inner cities look like Dresden, circa 1945. The "poor" are ignorant, obese and lazy. 17% of black males over 20 are unemployed. One in three black males between 20 and 29 are in jail, on parole or on probation.
What good has come of this stupidity?"
The purpose of welfare is income redistribution so that opportunity and influence is not monopolized by the wealthy. What's the story with welfare in America?
When the top ten percent controls seventy percent of the wealth:
http://m.motherjones.com/politics/2011/02/income-inequality-in-america-chart-graph
And the top one percent collects more than the bottom fifty percent in income:
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2010/dec/10/bernie-s/bernie-sanders-viral-speech-says-top-1-percent-ear/
The welfare system in America isn't doing a very good job. Who's been in charge again over the last 40ish years? If you really want to blame something, it's the system which has hollowed out domestic manufacturing so that corporations can maximize product at minimized cost and concentrate wealth amongst those who manage and trade, not those who make. And now these guys have a special little welfare system for themselves alone called TBTF which tax payers are supposed to pay for out of their pensions and social security.
Yeah, welfare is the problem. Too many people are eating steak and lobster. Not enough people are working. The top ten percent are too big to fail. What are you going to do about that, HUH?
#19 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Fri 19 Aug 2011 at 12:09 AM
Dude..
If welfare worked... If welfare actually improved society...
We would need to spend less every year...
Such is not the case. pal.
Deal with the Reality.
#20 Posted by padikiller, CJR on Fri 19 Aug 2011 at 10:12 PM
Thimbles:
You're not going to get any argument out of me about cutting corporate welfare first! The taxpayers shouldn't be propping up banks, or car companies, or farmers, or any other businesses.
So with this concession, let's try this again:
"WHY should the taxpayers fund welfare to subsidize drug use? Or tobacco use? Or alcohol use? Or gambling? Or tattoos? Or procreation? Why should the taxpayers fund steak, lobster, or Ho Ho's for food stamp recipients?"
HUH?
#21 Posted by padikiller, CJR on Sat 20 Aug 2011 at 08:35 AM
"You're not going to get any argument out of me about cutting corporate welfare first! The taxpayers shouldn't be propping up banks, or car companies, or farmers, or any other businesses."
I'm also not going to get any initiative out of you on these issues either. You reserve your anger for the politically weakest and economically most vulnerable segments of society. You demand prosecutions and drug testing of welfare recipients and make "concessions" when confronted about your silence on the more expensive handouts we give to the more wealthy.
But you are also the first guy in to defend the wealthy when evidence of their legal and moral excesses appear and attack the wealthy's critics as socialisto-communists. Why don't you get angry and protest the amassing of economic distorting political power by the nation's elites instead of raging at the programs of the poor, which were providing a bare subsistence to many BEFORE the state and federal austerity cuts kicked in?
You're like a shop owner who finds his storefront window busted, sees a guy with a bat and a guy with his finger in his ear, walks past the guy with a bat and yells at the next guy, "Hey you! Get that finger out of your ear! What do you think you're doing busting up my window!? HUH?!"
Real tough, Padi. Real good way to address the real problem, Mr. Reality-bell.
"Oh, I'm totally against guys with bats who bust up windows. With this concession.."
"You mean like the guy behind you with the glass shards in his hair?"
"Who do you mean? Oh, him? No, he looks like a fine individual. You can't say for sure that bat was used on that window and those shards came from my storefront. That's a hell of an accusation to throw around without basis. *short guy with glasses gets in car* Hey you! Mr. Finger-in-the-ear! I got your license buddy! You're going to jail!"
"If welfare worked... If welfare actually improved society...
We would need to spend less every year...
Such is not the case. pal."
America spends twice as much money, and the same amount of public money, as the next most expensive countries do on health care.
America incarcerates 6 times the world median of prisoners per 100,000 people.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/23/world/americas/23iht-23prison.12253738.html
"The United States has less than 5 percent of the world's population. But it has almost a quarter of the world's prisoners."
The cost of the total police system has nearly tripled between 1982 and 2007 the cost of the prison system (which has become a privatized wasteful leech of taxpayer money itself) has nearly quadrupled.
Instead of schools, health care and opportunity, Americans spend on wars, prisons, and tax cuts. And maybe I wouldn't mind all that extra prison spending except...
THEY DON'T CATCH THE CRIMINALS WHO BROKE THE ECONOMY. Those guys in the suits with glass in their hair? Ah shucks, we don't mind them. The guy with a doobie and his finger in his ear, the guy on UI busking in the park, the guy eating a fricken Ho Ho, that's who we get angry with. That's who we imprison. That's who we cut off benefits to. The guys who defrauded the world of trillions? LEAVE THE BANKERS ALONE.
America is such a screwed up place, I'm sad to say.
#22 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Sat 20 Aug 2011 at 11:10 AM
Ah phooey, I was this { } close to perfect.
"The guys who defrauded the world of trillions? LEAVE THE BANKERS ALONE.
America is such a screwed up place, I'm sad to say."
#23 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Sat 20 Aug 2011 at 11:16 AM
Again with the "LEAVE THE BANKERS ALONE" schtick.
Thimbles... Get this straight...
I have consistently said that any criminal activity should be punished to the fullest extent of the law.
Why do you keep misrepresenting reality?
You need a little introspection. You need to ask yourself why is that you can't answer these simple questions:
"WHY should the taxpayers fund welfare to subsidize drug use? Or tobacco use? Or alcohol use? Or gambling? Or tattoos? Or procreation? Why should the taxpayers fund steak, lobster, or Ho Ho's for food stamp recipients?"
If you're honest with yourself, you will realize that the reason you can't (or more accurately, won't) answer these questions is that your position is absurd.
#24 Posted by padikiller, CJR on Sun 21 Aug 2011 at 10:41 AM
"Thimbles... Get this straight...
I have consistently said that any criminal activity should be punished to the fullest extent of the law."
With the exception of bribery and fraud, by bankers. Your words are there in the cjr archives. I am representing your words, not misrepresenting reality.
"You need to ask yourself why is that you can't answer these simple questions:"
No, I don't see why anyone has to answer any of your questions considering your position on regulatory matters is to pretty much eliminate them all. You proposed a bunch "solutions" which would require intense regulation and frequent monitoring of people's private lives and habits. Citizens of the United States have rights to privacy upon which government should not infringe.
WHY should the government fund welfare to subsidize drug use? Or tobacco use? Or alcohol use? Or gambling? Or tattoos? Or procreation? Why should the taxpayers fund steak, lobster, or Ho Ho's for food stamp recipients?
A) because America has mandated basic minimum levels of protection from destitution for its citizens and, at the same time, established citizen rights to privacy.
B) because the basic levels of protection are not enough to provide the basic necessities of life and "steak and lobster". Therefore you are exaggerating the incidences of these purchases and, in the rare cases in which steak and lobster purchases occur, those people are sacrificing basic necessities to do so. That is their choice.
You'd be taking away money spent to improve lives in order to pay for bureaucracy built to enforce laws. This is dumb.
Taxpayers fund welfare to protect vulnerable citizens of the United States. It is a safety net for tough times, not a winning ticket in the lottery. If you want to set up a surveillance infrastructure in order to dictate choices to the poor, be my guest, but you are focusing your attention on the lower rungs of the bottom 50% who have less wealth than the top 1%.
You're focusing on taxpayer pennies when tax payer hundreds and thousands are flying out the treasury window to support dead beat banks. This is absurd.
#25 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Sun 21 Aug 2011 at 01:52 PM
Interesting article:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/aug/17/looing-with-lights-off
#26 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Sun 21 Aug 2011 at 01:53 PM
So too:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/aug/11/london-riots-davidcameron
Its about Britain, mind you, but the societal necrosis is the same. Bankers looted entire countries, have busted up the monetary union, have ruined the centuries old systems of property transfer and yet we're complaining about poor people looting welfare by buying ho ho's (fine use of code language by the by). It's daft.
#27 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Sun 21 Aug 2011 at 02:05 PM
padikiller asked (repeatedly): "WHY should the taxpayers fund welfare to subsidize drug use? Or tobacco use? Or alcohol use? Or gambling? Or tattoos? Or procreation? Why should the taxpayers fund steak, lobster, or Ho Ho's for food stamp recipients?"
Thimbles responded (eventually): "because America has mandated basic minimum levels of protection from destitution..."
padikiller replies: Witness the absurdity!
The policy is justified because the policy exists, according to Thimbo!
You're willing to use this reasoning across the board with regard to government policies, right, huh Thimbles? Tax rates, SEC regs, DoD policies, etc...?
And seriously, Thimbles... Your claim that abuses of the welfare system come at the expense of "basic necessities of life" is belied by the fact that the people who abuse welfare are almost always alive when they do so. Thus, the fact that they are not dead when they purchase the steak, lobster or Ho Ho's pretty much shoots down your silly argument that they have foregone the "basis necessities of life"...
#28 Posted by padikiller, CJR on Sun 21 Aug 2011 at 02:50 PM
Dude, do you have any statistics on the steak and lobster buying minorities? No? Then stop pretending it's a problem worth our attention. Not until you take on the problem of rampant fraud in the banking system which has cost the economy trillions, cost the tax payers trillions, reduced tax revenue by trillions, increased the cost of safety net programs by billions, and you have pretended -on multiple occasions- doesn't exist.
Why should anyone have to answer your questions about reality when your reality is a distorted mess in which guys with ho ho's are a serious problem for the economy and the federal government should get out of the way of the sainted bankers - who were just trying to earn an honest buck?
http://www.cjr.org/the_audit/audit_notes_gutting_blame-the-.php
#29 Posted by ThImbues, CJR on Sun 21 Aug 2011 at 10:15 PM
Thimbles beats his dead horse again.
Of course, taking on banking fraud and welfare fraud aren't mutually exclusive..
We can (and should) do both!..
But making welfare more onerous would get rid of many of the mooches.
A crack addict will either have to stay clean or get a job. Either way, society is better off and so is the addict.
Food stamp recipients will either have to eat cheaper, healthier food, or get a job. Either way, society is better off and so is the recipient.
The silly excuses against my proposals so far are:
1. It will cost too much to implement them (suddenly the liberals are into cutting government spending). This contention is made despite the fact that under Florida's new law, a once a year drug test for the state's 113,000 TANF recipients costs between $10 and $25 (less than $3 million per year) while the state spends nearly HALF A BILLION DOLLARS PER YEAR ON TANF.
Yeah... Drug testing welfare recipients will break the bank, alright.
2, The policy is good because it is a policy that is good. Can't argue with this one, can we?
3. The right to privacy entitles people to buy drugs with welfare money at the expense of taxpayers.
4. People who abuse food stamps are trading the "basic necessities of life" to use taxpayer money to buy steak and Ho Ho's. (and for some reason, public policy should support this self-destructive decision).
#30 Posted by padikiller, CJR on Sun 21 Aug 2011 at 11:18 PM
"The silly excuses against my proposals so far are:"
Strawmen. I didn't say it would cost too much, I said it would violate the rights of citizens to implement and spend a much of money doing so to fix a trivial problem.
By the by, are you having fun with your code language? ("steak and Ho Ho's" are the root of all evil in paddy world. Wonder why.)
I didn't say the policy is good because it is a policy that is good. The US, as a population, decided to make a minimum standard of poverty for citizens. If you claim there shouldn't be a minimum standard, make that argument. Sell us on the third world.
I didn't say the right to privacy entitles people to buy drugs with welfare money. Buying drugs is a criminal act. Using drugs is a criminal act. How people spend their income is not something free societies monitor without cause. How people spend their time in privacy is not something free societies monitor without cause. Being on welfare is not cause for invasions of privacy. Constitution, look it up.
And "Food stamp recipients will either have to eat cheaper, healthier food"
is mutually exclusive. watch "Food Inc." or "Killer at Large" sometime to see why that is and ask yourself why you are railing at the government programs for the poor and not the government programs for the junk food producers.
Man you sure ask alot of questions for a guy who avoids answering any. Did you ever get around to making an intelligent answer to my question?
"Why don't you take some time and develop what exactly you would have done in governmental capacity to address the rampant fraud by mortgage brokers, rating agencies, investment banks, inside traders who bet on their clients' failures, and the over leveraging of the entire financial system. What would you have done to protect the public and prevent the crash in the years previous to 2008?"
http://www.cjr.org/the_audit/revolving-door_reporting_american_banker.php#comment-49791
No? Any day now, I'm sure.
#31 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Mon 22 Aug 2011 at 06:00 AM
So now Thimbles... The same guy who believes that journalists should be held to different standards based on skin color, has the nerve to call me a racist, when he's the only one here bringing up race in any way?
What the Hell are you saying, Thimbles? That only black people eat steak and Ho Ho's? Of all the stupidity you have ever posited here... This one takes the cake!
Typical, nasty, filthy commie/liberal libel. If someone questions commie/liberal policies, then label him a bigot.
As for your faux populist cry... The fact is that federal government authorizes states to drug test TANF recipients.... The People have spoken, right, Thimbo? Power to the people!... Let the drug testing begin, right?
Just when you think Thimbles can't get any sillier: "How people spend their income is not something free societies monitor without cause
padikiller responds: Yeah... This is why we drug test airline pilots - BECAUSE it's a good idea to keep druggies from flying airplanes. And it's also good cause to make sure that taxpayers aren't supporting crack dealers.
If you don't want to piss in a cup, don't come asking the taxpayers for your crack money. Problem solved.
Finally, you're back to the "don't talk about welfare fraud, talk about "Wall Street" fraud" dodge... Well it isn't working, thimbles.
They're NOT mutually exclusive issues. You can deal with BOTH.
They way you deal with fraud (welfare or "Wall Street") is simple. You prosecute the criminals and you fire the government officials who don't do their jobs. It ain't complicated.
#32 Posted by padikiller, CJR on Mon 22 Aug 2011 at 11:15 AM
"So now Thimbles... The same guy who believes that journalists should be held to different standards based on skin color, has the nerve to call me a racist, when he's the only one here bringing up race in any way?"
I know, You're just saying stuff that's so abstract. You're talking about cutting taxes and testing welfare recipients and all these things which are totally just economic things.
Nothing to see here.
Tell me more about the young bucks eating steaks and ho ho's on welfare, padi. People are familiar with the stereotypes the right use and who they are used on. You're the one repeatedly using familiar unfounded stereotypes. You want to avoid being labeled a bigot? Stop acting stereotypical.
But I don't care. Keep speaking in code, if that makes you happy, and deny you're doing so, if you think that makes a difference. People can judge for themselves.
"Typical, nasty, filthy commie/liberal libel."
What's that? You say something, Smeagol?
" Yeah... This is why we drug test airline pilots - BECAUSE it's a good idea to keep druggies from flying airplanes."
Who's testing the airline pilots?
Yeah we test people, such as drivers, for substances, such as alcohol, when the nature of their condoned activities, such as driving, can pose a danger to society when under the influence. Even then, the tests are given mostly when cause is established, such as weaving all over the road.
I can't see you making a case that welfare threatens anyone but the individual. I can see a case based on the precedent of airline pilots, applied to bankers. Their actions pose a potential danger to the greater society. It's a good idea to keep crackheads from running banks.
"They way you deal with fraud (welfare or "Wall Street") is simple. You prosecute the criminals and you fire the government officials who don't do their jobs. It ain't complicated."
It is if you refuse to fund the agencies, enforce the laws, weaken the laws that exist through deregulation, attack the government charged with protecting the public as its enemy, and ignore the systemic criminalization problem by pretending it doesn't exist.
Or as you put it: "I don't agree that there was (or is) "rampant fraud" in the financial system. To the extent that fraud occurred (and it certainly did occur), it should be prosecuted. I contend however, that fraud is much more rampant in government boondoggle programs like unemployment, Medicare, Medicaid, SSI, SS disability, etc, than it is in the financial sector."
That is probably the stupidest belief I've heard you express, and I've heard your global warming conspiracy theories so that is saying something.
"To protect the public, I would get the government out of 90% of financial regulation and I would privatize the FDIC and get rid of the OTS. I would reduce the SEC's role to prevent insider trading and market collusion."
And then somehow you would have simply prosecuted criminals using magic. Nothing's complicated in make-believe land. Real tough and specific on welfare, real simple and airy on banks.
You're a card, padi. A joker.
#33 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Mon 22 Aug 2011 at 01:14 PM
Thimbles goes off the deep end: Tell me more about the young bucks eating steaks and ho ho's on welfare, padi. People are familiar with the stereotypes the right use and who they are used on. You're the one repeatedly using familiar unfounded stereotypes. You want to avoid being labeled a bigot? Stop acting stereotypical.
But I don't care. Keep speaking in code, if that makes you happy, and deny you're doing so, if you think that makes a difference.
padikiller: More bullshit from Thimbles... "You want to avoid being labeled a bigot, padikiller? Then stop writing things I don't like to read..."
"Young bucks?" Are you freaking serious? Show me a post where I refer to any human being as a "young buck" and I'll contribute $5000 to Obama's reelection campaign. This is nothing but an outright lie from our resident commie/liberal.
What I really want to know though, is how "steaks and Ho Ho's" is a "code word" for some sort of racist commentary... This is a good one...
Are you claiming that only black people eat steaks and Ho Ho's, Thimbles? White people only eat fish and Snickers? What in the HELL are you trying to claim here.. This is without a doubt the single most stupid thing you've ever posted here (and THAT is saying something)!
Paint a commie/liberal into a factual corner and libel inevitably ensues...
#34 Posted by padikiller, CJR on Mon 22 Aug 2011 at 01:53 PM
Sorry padi, I guess it was all an innocent mistake.
Whether you are intentionally racially stereotyping or not doesn't make a difference. You are certainly being intentional in your stereotyping of the low to no income poor.
Which means there's no sin if I judge you based on the close minded, pig headed, racist for jesus, nazi-conservative stereotype. It's all fair, right?
#35 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Mon 22 Aug 2011 at 02:23 PM
Thimbles...
I'm still trying to figure out exactly what makes you think that "steaks and Ho Ho's" are consumed primarily by black people... Or more specifically (as you refer to them) by the "young bucks"?
Where are you getting this silly, stupid crap?
I've never made any racist criticism with regard to welfare mooches. Indeed, the welfare mooches pretty much run the spectrum in skin tone. You're just fabricating this BS as you go along...
When all else fails.... Pull the "bigot" trigger, right?
It keeps you from dealing with the facts.
#36 Posted by padikiller, CJR on Mon 22 Aug 2011 at 04:13 PM