Yesterday, Poynter’s Julie Moos published a controversial post on the journalism institute’s Romenesko+ blog, which she credited to my “sharp eye.”
Her post, which addressed “incomplete attribution” in the posts of Jim Romenesko, the industry’s most beloved aggregator, instantly created a firestorm, with many journalists quickly tweeting and blogging in defense of Romenesko while others raised charges of plagiarism. Romenesko twice asked to resign because of the matter, and Poynter finally allowed him to do so last night.
What a shame. That the matter escalated to that point is strange to us, particularly since it all flowed from a set of questions I sent Moos on Wednesday*—in advance, I thought, of an interview for a story. My questions did not focus solely on Jim Romenesko (who did not respond to my request for comment) but on several recent changes on the blog since it became Romenesko+, adding a number of writers and changing its aggregation style.
I sent those questions in the spirit of inquiry; they would be good questions for any similar site, but they’re particularly relevant and important for Poynter, given its authority in journalism ethics, and the institute’s stated mission to “promote excellence and integrity in the practice of craft.”
I didn’t even know what I thought about some of the matters raised. But I raised the questions because I was coming to believe that recent changes in Poynter’s practices, taken together, are not good for journalists, and run counter to the intended spirit of Romenesko’s blog, which was originally designed to give credit and traffic to journalists, not to steal those things from them. I thought these were issues worth discussing, ones that could be easily—and, needless to say, without anyone’s resignation—fixed.
I contacted Moos on Wednesday afternoon and we scheduled an interview for Thursday afternoon. On Wednesday evening, along with some questions, I sent Moos eight recent Romenesko+ posts—not all of them written by Jim Romenesko—that reflected patterns I found to be problematic.*
As Erik Wemple reported, Moos contacted me the next morning shortly after publishing her own post on the matter—and several hours before our scheduled interview—saying she had responded on Poynter’s blog. (In fact, she had responded to just one aspect of my questions.) She could discuss the matter at any time, she said, explaining that she had posted her response before our interview because her first obligation was to the Institute, Jim Romenesko, and Poynter’s readers.
Because Jim Romenesko’s attribution practices were the focus of Moos’s post, they more or less became the focus of yesterday’s debate. But attribution was only one part of my inquiry, and I’d like to discuss the other aspects here.
“Over-aggregation”
While what this term means is debated—see the earlier Huffington Post and Business Insider controversies—my interpretation matches that of Moos, who described over-aggregation as when an aggregated post contains too much volume or substantive work of the original source, such that it removes any incentive for the reader to visit the original story.
Additionally, I would argue, as Moos and her Poynter colleagues have also done, that an aggregated post should add some value—either in original thought or through compiling various sources—and not just be a condensed reproduction of original content, as in the examples I sent Poynter.
In nearly all of the examples I provided Moos, there was not a single sentence—these examples were at least eight sentences long—that wasn’t largely in the words of the original author. (Moos provided one of my examples in her own post.) My examples bolded the words in each Poynter post that matched the words of the source. While this had the effect of highlighting some confusing or incomplete attributions, my main point was quite different: that these aggregated posts didn’t offer any original thought or valuable synthesis of source materials; they’re merely condensed versions of the original. You can see that this was my main intent in the below example, where I bolded material Jim Romenesko rendered inside of quotes; while those portions raise aggregation issues, they clearly don’t raise attribution issues:
Newsweek, Daily Beast together have lost about $30 millionJim Romenesko Oct. 31, 2011 9:02 am

I remember when we all learned that not everything by Andrew Sullivan was actually by Andrew Sullivan, but had been for some time by students of Andrew Sullivan in the style of Andrew Sullivan, much as certain Renaissance painting are from, for example, the School of Caravaggio.
NTTAWWT.
#1 Posted by Dan Collins, CJR on Fri 11 Nov 2011 at 05:18 PM
Let's see the email you sent to Moos. It's your email, so just post it and let everyone decide for themselves.
#2 Posted by Tony, CJR on Fri 11 Nov 2011 at 05:20 PM
A fine piece that raises some important questions -- especially on over-aggregation -- and clearly isn't a hit piece on Jim Romensko. The over-reaction by Julie Moos and Poynter is the problem. I don't think any reasonable journalist trying to navigate the ever-evolving digital waters should have a problem bringing up these issues. Again, I don't see attribution as the main problem here, until the longer posts showed up and discouraged click-throughs.
The anger isn't and shouldn't be at Erika but at Poynter and Moos for sliming Jim.
#3 Posted by Brian O'Connor, CJR on Fri 11 Nov 2011 at 05:34 PM
Erika Fry's piece makes a strong case that the actual problem was the change in the Poynter medianews site that resulted in longer, "overaggregated" items -- what we in the real world always called violations of the fair use rule. Julie Moos in in charge of the site. Jim Romenesko ran the site for a dozen years and did not engage in these fair use violations, as Fry states. While Moos claims there was "no conscious decision" [PLEASE NOTE THAT I PUT THAT IN QUOTES] to make pieces longer, that dog won't hunt. She is in charge and it was under her watch that this problem arose. Therefore, and I say this in all seriousness, Julie Moos should resign. Other media figures have been asked to resign for less.
#4 Posted by Harris Meyer, CJR on Fri 11 Nov 2011 at 05:38 PM
I stand with Harris Meyer at No. 4. Seriously. Shame.
#5 Posted by Rebecca Schoenkopf, CJR on Fri 11 Nov 2011 at 06:06 PM
Let's look at the stolen "700-word article."
Quoting from this CJR piece:
"On at least one occasion, Poynter has taken over-aggregation so far that the term no longer applies. See this one, in which an entire 700-word article from CJR is cut and pasted into a Poynter Romenesko+ post. (We don’t know if anything on that scale happened to anyone else, but we sure noticed.)"
Wow, that sounds like a theft. A theft on a grand scale. Let's look at it.
Following the link to the Romenesko post from 2011 (http://www.poynter.org/latest-news/romenesko/148187/the-author-of-the-greatest-sorry-to-see-our-colleague-go-letter-has-died/), one sees that it contains a one-paragraph summary of the Steve Daley obituaries in the two Chicago dailies, with links to those obituaries.
And Romenesko includes, in blockquote, the text of Daley's "hilarious fill-in-the-blanks letter for newsroom bosses who have to come up with yet another farewell to a downsized employee." In block quotes. And with a link to CJR.org.
Following the link to CJR.org (http://www.cjr.org/behind_the_news/media_layoff_mad_libs.php), we see that it's not even an article at all. It's Daley's Jan. 2009 fake memo. (Was this memo even written for CJR? Or written and passed around and then eventually published with permission in CJR? In other words, is CJR even the original source of this "article."?)
Even if one could "cut and paste an article" from the Web (you mean "copy and paste"), Jim named the source, linked to the source, put the material in blockquotes. And it wasn't an article to begin with.
That's theft?
Or is this Jim, while all of us are gathered in Romenesko's Funeral Parlor and Old Time Bar, pulling out a yellowed clipping, saying he got it from CJR, giving all of us a copy, and reading Steve's work out loud as a eulogy.
Shame on CJR for this misleading snipe hunt. The greater shame, of course, is Poynter's for being spooked by this sort of nonsense.
#6 Posted by Bill Dedman, CJR on Fri 11 Nov 2011 at 06:17 PM
This casts a completely different light on your line of question. Moos made you seem like a green ("intern") inquisitor who alone (with Moos) didn't understand that everyone who reads Romenesko doesn't expect any of his stuff to be original reporting. Instead you have raised a question that many Poynter readers have known for a long time - that under current leadership the blog was going the Huffington Post route on over-aggregation. We know from the millions that Arianna got why she's unethical - a big payday. But why Poynter, a non-profit paragon of journalistic rectitude was stealing journalists seed corn around the country (and word) was perplexing. Thanks for the clarification.
Here's an idea: CJR could be the new home for Romenesko. It would be a major free agent signing that would buttress CJR's strong long-form critiques.
In the meantime, I hope everyone will join me in deleting my Poynter.org bookmark.
#7 Posted by H. Barca, CJR on Fri 11 Nov 2011 at 06:25 PM
[Attribution in these posts was mystifyingly inconsistent, and I did plan to ask Moos about this. At times, quotation marks or block quotes are used to set off the original author’s words. This makes instances in which they are not, odd, and suggest that they are instead the words of the aggregator.
In some of the examples I sent Moos, sentences were modified just slightly—with the substitution of a single word or a slight change in phrasing. This makes it even more unclear who has written what.]
I am struggling to understand why CJR and Poynter can't make the COBUILD English Grammar and the Longman Dictionary of Contemporary English official.
Then each could say that practices are rooted in these best teaching accounts of the English language. Let's accept as fact Jim's current chaotic practices of attribution. Just following up on the first paragraph in Erika's post here proves that. Apparently that feature of Jim R.'s work is not to be ascribed to an editor. So he is responsible.
#8 Posted by Clayton Burns, CJR on Fri 11 Nov 2011 at 06:26 PM
I'm just fascinated that Erika reached out to Moos to ask questions for a story and Moos decided to scoop her this way and then referred Erika to what amounts, really, to her online statement. Huh? This is how Poynter people, supporters of journalists and their desire to get quick responses and access to sources and information, behaves when they are being quizzed on their practices? Never mind the gigantic bus Moos was willing to toss one of journalism's most respected figures, which is bad taste enough. If Erika's account is accurate, Moos also supports sources -- say politicians, business leaders, crime suspects, whoever -- playing games with reporters seeking answers to tough questions and then referring them to their prepared statement. Doesnt anyone at Poynter worry about the message Moos is sending on their behalf which is, "yeah, we don't trust reporters to quote us accurately either, those scandal-mongering dregs."
#9 Posted by Steve Friess, CJR on Fri 11 Nov 2011 at 07:10 PM
Sorry, but copying-and-pasting hundreds of words is not original writing. If it's not original writing, then it lies in the realm of plagiarism. I don't think there's a limbo or purgatory definition for writing, unless something is so poorly punctuated or so incomprehensible that it can't be defined as original or copied.
If you're copying and pasting the work of others and getting paid to do so, then something is wrong.
I'm glad CJR brought this up because it also reveals that Poynter wasn't even editing Romenesko's work for 10-12 years. That's even worse than the copying-and-pasting.
#10 Posted by Robert Knilands, CJR on Fri 11 Nov 2011 at 10:16 PM
Poynter.org has become a shell of what it used to be. What a shame.
#11 Posted by Blake, CJR on Fri 11 Nov 2011 at 10:18 PM
"Plagiarist/Aggregator Quits, Goes Elsewhere".
Yawn.
Why are you guys so upset?
He's a blogger, for crying out loud! It's not like they amputated his typing fingers or anything.
#12 Posted by padikiller, CJR on Fri 11 Nov 2011 at 10:49 PM
We now have a potential Nixonesque situation with Julie Moos. According to Erika Fry's article this afternoon, Moos said there was "no conscious decision" to make the medianews pieces longer. But Romenesko says in a comment responding to my comment on the Poynter site that there was indeed a conscious decision made while he was on vacation. Who to believe? I think we need a Watergate committee here to look for gaps on the tape. Seems to me this ups the stakes for the Moos administration. Here's Romenesko's comment in response to my comment:
Romenesko 44 minutes ago in reply to HarrisWriter
>> Moos claims there was "no conscious decision" [PLEASE NOTE THAT I PUT THAT IN QUOTES] to make pieces longer,
There was, in fact, a conscious decision to make the pieces longer. I went on vacation for a week during the summer and my former Poynter colleagues began posting articles long enough that they could justify tweeting back to Poynter, and not the source of the story. That is when this change in ROMENESKO occured.
#13 Posted by Harris Meyer, CJR on Fri 11 Nov 2011 at 11:05 PM
Umm. You haven't met the burden of any sort of proof that what you call over aggregation removes the impetus to read the originals. I found it hard not to click on the links in the example! By the way, we all know that the original content is the work of the original authors that's why we call these new newsmen aggregators, not journalists. I think the stormy response to Ms Moos relates to the fact that ordinary readers have found so much lacking in modern journalism that they need to be able to juxtapose several sources instantaneously. The reader then chooses which of the aggregated articles will be the best use of her time. If the individual peices of original content were sufficiently broad to satisfy the public need for information, then aggregators wouldn't have jobs. They have jobs because readers (people with full time jobs and often families demanding their time) need to read six or seven sources to have a full grasp of the subject they wish to understand. In other words, don't blame necessity for having the temerity to become the mother of invention.
#14 Posted by Kms, CJR on Sat 12 Nov 2011 at 09:47 AM
Poynter should do one of those pieces on "5 Things Great Bosses Should Never Do" - and explain why no one edited Romenesko's posts for years, then came down on him with a hammer.
#15 Posted by Ellen Clegg, CJR on Sat 12 Nov 2011 at 09:50 AM
This is a very thoughtful piece that gets to the core of the pitfalls of aggregation and attribution. Those of us in journalism education are getting pressure to teach aggregation in the overaggregation style and we have resisted for the ethical and professional reasons noted. I do like the guidelines that this article suggests. I think a discussion/tutorial about guidelines with examples of both the good and bad would not only benefit journalism education, but professional newsrooms.
Joel Campbell
Associate Professor - journalism
Brigham Young University
#16 Posted by Joel Campbell, CJR on Sat 12 Nov 2011 at 10:25 AM
[Those of us in journalism education are getting pressure to teach aggregation in the overaggregation style and we have resisted for the ethical and professional reasons noted.]
Joel Campbell: Could you tell us more? Where is the pressure coming from?
Thanks. Clayton.
#17 Posted by Clayton Burns, CJR on Sat 12 Nov 2011 at 12:40 PM
I'm not a media person, I just read the news. I read an article about Romenesko's resignation yesterday on Yahoo. Prior to that, I hadn't even heard about Romenesko, Poynter or CJR. It has been incredibly fascinating to read all the blogs (Felix etc.) and comments with the exception of comments from this Robert Knilands guy who keeps repeating his ridiculous accusations and Justin's article. Are you really qualified to write about the Romenesko situation Justin? (Thanks Dedman, I also looked up forego vs. forgo :)
Poynter's management is at fault, if this has been going on for years, they should have been familiar with Jim's writing style. You can't turn a blind eye for years and then act surprised and call foul. It's ridiculous.
Julie Moss seems to be a bad manager who no one would want to work for. This is no way to treat a long-term employee who seems to be widely respected in the news media world. It seems to me if someone had just said "Hey, Jim could you please use quotes going forward to avoid attribution issues?", he would have done so. Simple solution.
I agree with the comments from others who say that this should have been handled in a less-public non-castigating manner with a brief disclosure of the current practice and the plan to attribute using quotes going forward.
It does seem to me that Julie preempted CJR's article and redesigned the Romenesko blog to drive traffic to Poynter. Julie setout to discredit Romenesko but in the end it was her who lost a lot of credibility.
Shame on Julie for the pathetic way she has handled all this. Shame on the other folks at Poynter for not having common sense.
I will probably never again visit these sites that I didn't know about prior to this week, but now I have a good example of 'How to be a Bad Boss/ Employer' thanks to Julie and Poynter.
#18 Posted by ANewsReader, CJR on Sat 12 Nov 2011 at 01:48 PM
Not to over-aggregate myself, the Moos article has two serious flaws. It behaves like a disciplinary memo rather than an article, and it gives Jim Romenesko no opportunity to speak for himself. Link here: http://bsun.md/vb7Jza
#19 Posted by John McIntyre, CJR on Sat 12 Nov 2011 at 02:28 PM
http://www.poynter.org/
Poynter faculty respond to questions about Romenesko’s practices, resignation
The Poynter Institute Nov. 11, 2011 4:02 pm
Al Tompkins, Senior Faculty for Broadcast: [It is not terribly unusual for some newsrooms to allow reporters and anchors to voice-over copy that was sent to them through a syndicated service. The viewer would have no way of knowing this was a feed and not the work of that reporter. It is an awful practice that should end.]
A good lead for Erika to follow up on.
#20 Posted by Clayton Burns, CJR on Sat 12 Nov 2011 at 03:48 PM
"I sent those questions in the spirit of inquiry; they would be good questions for any similar site, but they’re particularly relevant and important for Poynter, given its authority in journalism ethics, ..."
Thanks for the laugh!
#21 Posted by Bradley J. Fikes, CJR on Sat 12 Nov 2011 at 04:50 PM
ANewsReader is another of the clueless anonymous posters, who then uses his anonymity to post ignorance.
First, gutless, cowardly anon, you might want to say just who "Justin" is.
I realize the depth of your thinking is running with the pack, but there's evidence behind the decision to classify what Romenesko did as "not original writing." You and the pack may claim that's what aggregation is, but that doesn't mean it's right or the best way.
All of this has been explained clearly, even if the static coming from the hordes of today's unqualified journalists threatens to drown it out. I know I would give way more credibility to CJR than I would a bunch of ranting, anonymous fools who I know from experience to be about the laziest thinkers "working" today.
#22 Posted by Robert Knilands, CJR on Sat 12 Nov 2011 at 07:21 PM
Wow. This is not exactly the way Ms. Moos presented things in her post. Not at all. I was cutting her some slack, but now that you've shone a little light on her way of doing things, all I can say is congrats to Jim Romenesko for jumping off a sinking ship.
And yes, I deleted my RSS feed for Poynter. Without Jim, there is no reason to go there, none whatsoever.
#23 Posted by Mark Gisleson, CJR on Sat 12 Nov 2011 at 07:36 PM
Robert - This is my response to you. Yawn! Now sit there and stew some more. Buh-Bye.
#24 Posted by ANewsReader, CJR on Sat 12 Nov 2011 at 09:05 PM
Robert - I forgot to add explain why your comments are ridiculous, which should be obvious to anyone with half a brain by now. I didn't question the validity of the attribution argument. I neither agree nor disagree because I'm not a media person and it's not my area of expertise. My comments are not about the message, but about the delivery ie. the way how Julie and Poynter went about doing what they did. So try to get grasp that concept. You're so silly calling me a gutless coward. What is this? A boxing ring? I don't know who the hell you are and I definitely don't want to either. You should go work for Julie and Poynter, you would fit right in.
Now I've wasted a minute of my time responding to your clueless comments. Yawn!
#25 Posted by ANewsReader, CJR on Sat 12 Nov 2011 at 09:15 PM
Well, you started going on about accusations that didn't even originate with me. Then you continue to make a judgment on those comments as if you disagree. I guess you so busy running with the pack that you don't even know what your own point is.
I don't really agree with some of the way Poynter handled this. There's no way Romenesko should have been running unedited and unread for that long. But a common refuge of lazy journalists who don't want to change is to claim "the way" the need for change was presented was bad. When you start droning on and on and on about that, it sounds like an excuse.
Romenesko should have known he needed to paraphrase and not just cut-and-paste. That's the point, as much as it can be reduced. You and others don't get it, yet you still try to claim to be right. That's ignorant and sad.
Feel free to assume the "stewing" part. You're much more insignificant than you believe.
#26 Posted by Robert Knilands, CJR on Sat 12 Nov 2011 at 11:53 PM
Folks, can I butt in here and point out that Romenesko himself made news yesterday (to my knowledge his first substantive public response to what Moos and Fry wrote) in reply to my post? He contradicted Julie Moos by saying there was a conscious decision to make the medianews pieces longer, apparently while he was out on vacation. If you all are news people, isn't that worthy of note? After all, according to CJR's Fry, the real problem arose when the medianews pieces became longer and started violating the fair-use rule. Moos denied in Fry's piece that she made such a decision. How about offering some thoughts on what looks to me, unless I'm missing something, like a key issue for Poynter's top management and for Poynter readers (and former readers).
#27 Posted by Harris Meyer, CJR on Sun 13 Nov 2011 at 02:00 AM
Harris Meyer's point is not only dead on, but should be the focus of a second round of news stories actively investigating just how many Poynter fingers got stuck in Jim's pie.
The original MediaNews gave you a tease. The Poynter version was the same until the redesign and the suffocating introduction of committee think to the mix.
#28 Posted by Mark Gisleson, CJR on Sun 13 Nov 2011 at 10:22 AM
http://www.poynter.org/
Poynter faculty respond to questions about Romenesko’s practices, resignation
The Poynter Institute Nov. 11, 2011 4:02 pm
Jill Geisler, Senior Faculty, Leadership and Management:
[As she wrestled with this, Julie did what managers are supposed to do — she sought out input from others. I was among them. We talked about making sure Jim’s voice was in the story so readers could hear how he developed this format and the intent behind it. I wish he had chosen to do that — to be part of the story and share this thoughts.]
#29 Posted by Clayton Burns, CJR on Sun 13 Nov 2011 at 11:41 AM
http://www.poynter.org/
Questions over Romenesko’s attributions spur changes in writing, editing
by Julie Moos
Published Nov. 10, 2011 12:33 pm
Updated Nov. 10, 2011 8:28 pm
[How long has this been going on? Jim says this is how he’s been writing for his 12 years at Poynter and a spot-checking of stories going back to 2005 finds multiple examples of the same practice.]
#30 Posted by Clayton Burns, CJR on Sun 13 Nov 2011 at 01:09 PM
Erika would be able to follow up by interviewing Bill Mitchell, Romenesko, and Moos. Even better would be a round-table with all four to try to sort out assumptions and perceptions:
http://www.poynter.org/
Poynter faculty respond to questions about Romenesko’s practices, resignation
The Poynter Institute Nov. 11, 2011 4:02 pm
Bill Mitchell, Leader of Entrepreneurial and International Programs:
[As Jim’s boss for the first 10 of his dozen years at Poynter, I struggled at times to reconcile the realities of his new story form with some traditional journalistic standards.]
#31 Posted by Clayton Burns, CJR on Sun 13 Nov 2011 at 01:26 PM
Does Poynter release figures on the traffic that's brought to the Poynter site by the Romenesko blog? There's an assumption that it's a lot of folks, but I've never seen any numbers, or how they are measured.
I remember when Poynter hired Romenesko, whoever the big cheese at Poynter was said he'd only recently learned of his blog, which was called MediaGossip.com. He produced it, and another "news of the weird"-type blog, when he worked at the St. Paul Pioneer-Press. It was a hilarious statement of ignorance, because MediaGossip was fairly well known among journalists at the time, and the head pooh-bah at this journalism institute had never heard of it.
Reading about Romenesko as if he's some kind of giant of journalism is truly strange. He is a blogger/aggregator whose style is easy to mimic. Poynter could replace him in a day. Frankly, he struck me as being a bit lazy. His posts were up by noon, he didn't work weekends or holidays, and he said recently he was taking a part-time role because he wanted to work less. Less?
#32 Posted by Dexter Westbrook, CJR on Sun 13 Nov 2011 at 05:48 PM
In the first, it's a bit of a downer to see Ms. Fry play the 'Oh my! I was just trying..." game. This is the biggest scalp she'll ever get, the high water-mark of public exposure (the rest of her work seems fairly routine left-leaning opinion pieces, of which the market is thoroughly stocked). When you stick a knife in someone (in a figurative sense, of course), stand behind what you did. This is clearly a manufactured reputation-hit on a popular blogger by competing forces; while one doesn't have to loudly proclaim that from the street-corners, at least be open and up-front about taking a guy out. There's something refreshing about candid conflict, the whole phony 'honest inquiry' bit just plays into the 'shrew' stereotype.
In the second, I can't say I was an avid reader of Romenesko, but he was a person who forged a large audience (and attendant advertising interest) by the sweat on his 'digital' brow. Thousands know his name and brand. Conversely, almost no one in public has heard of any of the leading lights at Poynter. Even though, quite impressively, they seem to have over a dozen people with impressive-sounding titles along the lines of 'Senior Executive Vice Director of International Leadership in Byline Accreditation.'
Since I didn't follow Romenesko closely, nor the Poynter Institute, I don't dismiss off-hand that Romeneskp may have been a fellow who over-stepped a few bounds, and took things way too personally. However, some facts, however circumstantial, seem to leave a distinct trail:
1. Romenesko was a prominent, trail-blazing internet pioneer. As evidenced in many articles and comments on Poynter and CJR, there is a sizable audience who wouldn't piss on a blogger to put out a fire. This is not even especially hidden. So Romenesko is not 'one of them' (a REAL journalist).
2. As evidenced by several of the Poynter posts from it's well-titled leadership, he is well-known to be a private, proud guy. The kind of person who would respond best to a personal conversation, and not, say, a giant, public piss-in-the-face.
3. He's leaving Poyner soon, and it's management has a talk about not competing for precious advertising dollars on his new site.
4. He declines.
5. Out of the blue (wink, wink), and totally coincidentally an opinion blogger from CJR whose main topics of interest are 'Republicans=Bad' and 'Liberals=good" suddenly intends to write a long treatise on the changing nature on the specifics of over-aggregation in internet news media. She just happens to send it to Romenesko's boss, and it just happens to point out his personal style. His personal style for over a decade nobody has had a problem with.
6. Julie Moos suddenly discovers a massive problem with Romenesko's style. Not at anypoint point in the decade before, but now. As he get's ready to leave. And take advertisers.
7. She then rebukes him in as personal and public way as possible, and then expresses surprise that a private, personnel guy would take exception to a very public chastising. Over something that people would decide was problematic issue...basically starting at the moment.
8. Most Poynter/CJR staff 'concern troll' the resignation, while freely letting it be known how much they dislike that newfangled internet thing. Except that precious advertising revenue.
Shine on your crazy "Media Ethics" crowd. I see what you did there, as the kids say.
#33 Posted by Max Blackstone, CJR on Sun 13 Nov 2011 at 06:50 PM
Max:
While some of your points are fairly solid, others are not.
First, you need an editor. Badly.
That being said, your attempt to turn this into some sort of right vs. left, new vs. old, print vs. Internet debate is laughable and poorly developed.
Worse, you are one of the many who have a badly inflated view of what Romenesko did. He copied and pasted text, then linked to it. One thing I've learned during this debate is there are way too many people like you who see no difference between original journalism and aggregating. There's a tremendous difference. If that has to be explained to you, then you don't know what you're talking about.
#34 Posted by Robert Knilands, CJR on Sun 13 Nov 2011 at 08:25 PM
Max:
What an interesting (wink, wink) narrative of this incident. I just want to chime in and say that the clear implication of your 5th point--that Erika Fry was somehow in cahoots with Moos in a drive to put a bit of stick about after Poynter and Romenesko tangled over advertising dollars--just happens to be utterly false and unbelievably baroque.
#35 Posted by Clint Hendler, CJR on Mon 14 Nov 2011 at 10:24 AM
Max,
FYI Robert Knilands has been repeatedly banned from discussion sites for trolling. Just Google Knilands and banned and you'll get multiple examples. Just ignore him.
Romenesko did exactly what he was supposed to do. But he succeeded too well, because fans such as myself went to Poynter's site almost entirely for him and not for Poynter's worthy seminars on how to be a better journalist (yawn).
Failing to entice readers to its other sites, Poynter increasingly invaded Romenesko's space with its own unwanted content. This was remarked at the time and resented.
In my opinion, Romenesko got fed up, so he decided to phase out from Poynter. He also planned to start an independent Web site to go back to his individual aggregation.
Since Romenesko was an incipient competitor, Poynter's little editors used the CJR article as a pretext to smear him with bogus charges. No writers cited by Romenesko ever complained that their work was inadequately attributed. To the contrary, they were eager to be so cited. In many cases, he even found the buried lede. That talent excites jealousy in the petty, including Internet trolls and certain bureaucratic functionaries at Poynter.
#36 Posted by Bradley J. Fikes, CJR on Mon 14 Nov 2011 at 10:55 AM
I’m a big fan of Jim Romenesko. I have gone to his blog several times each weekday for the past 10 or so years -- and found it interesting, informative and admirably evenhanded in laying out journalistic shortcomings. I think Julie Moos hasn’t handled the situation very well and that the trend to lengthier posts on Romenesko+ raises serious aggregation questions.
All this aside, however, Jim should have been using quotation marks or some other clear means to identify words that he took directly from others. I believe that clear attribution is fundamental to quality journalism that enables readers to evaluate the value of information and that makes fair use of the thoughts and words of others. I realize aggregation is evolving rapidly, but I think it and other emerging forms of quality journalism need to respect this fundamental value of clear attribution.
Some have suggested that the links to original material in Romenesko posts constituted sufficient attribution, especially in a blog written for journalists who understood what Jim was trying to do. They maintain there was no need for quotation marks when he was using the exact words from the linked material.
But Jim's own posts undercut this argument. In reading his Rahm Emanuel item included in the initial Moos Nov.10 post on Romenesko+, I was struck that Jim had chosen to enclose in quotation marks 11 of the 72 words that his lede took directly from the Chicago Tribune story. Clearly, he didn’t believe the accompanying link to the full Tribune story constituted adequate attribution for those 11 words.
Erika Fry, who had brought the Rahm Emanuel item to Moos' attention, suggests this incident isn’t an isolated one, noting in her Friday CJR post: “At times, quotation marks or block quotes are used to set off the original author’s words. This makes instances in which they are not, odd, and suggest that they are instead the words of the aggregator.”
Basically, I believe Jim just needs to remember to practice journalism of the same high quality -- including the nitty-gritty of attribution -- that his blog consistently nudges and goads all journalists to aspire to deliver to their readers.
Barney Calame
#37 Posted by Barney Calame, CJR on Mon 14 Nov 2011 at 11:16 AM
Felix Salmon made a good observation about the Poynter smear of Romenesko (emphasis mine):
According to Moos’s own guidelines, which she quoted in her piece, the stated reason for all these rules about attribution is ” to prevent plagiarism, intentional or otherwise”. So she did use the p-word, and she did therefore imply that what Romenesko was doing was some kind of unintentional plagiarism. If there was no question of plagiarism, then it’s not entirely obvious why the plagiarism-avoidance part of the guidelines should even be germane.
#38 Posted by Bradley J. Fikes, CJR on Mon 14 Nov 2011 at 11:19 AM
http://www.poynter.org/latest-news/mediawire/152802/questions-over-romeneskos-attributions-spur-changes-in-writing-editing/#more-152802
Questions over Romenesko’s attributions spur changes in writing, editing
by Julie Moos
Published Nov. 10, 2011 12:33 pm
Updated Nov. 10, 2011 8:28 pm
[Our practice is to enclose verbatim language in quotation marks, and to set off longer excerpts in blockquotes. While I have no reason to believe this practice has spread beyond one writer, I will check the work of other contributors to determine for certain whether anyone else has been guilty of the same shortcut.]
[How much does intent matter? The format and transparency of Jim’s posts credit the original source and direct people to it. There was no attempt to mask the material’s origins or deliberately pass it off as someone else’s.]
[Effective immediately, Jim’s work for Poynter will change in a few important respects. First, it will follow our standards of attribution. Second, it will be edited before it is published. I asked Jim Wednesday night to refrain from publishing while we sorted out this situation, and he has done so. Jim has offered to resign and I refused to accept his resignation.]
#39 Posted by Clayton Burns, CJR on Mon 14 Nov 2011 at 12:44 PM
http://felixsalmon.tumblr.com/post/12781887210/a-couple-of-points-about-romeneskogate-for-those-who
A couple of points about Romeneskogate, for those who aren’t completely bored of it by now
[According to Moos’s own guidelines, which she quoted in her piece, the stated reason for all these rules about attribution is ” to prevent plagiarism, intentional or otherwise”. So she did use the p-word, and she did therefore imply that what Romenesko was doing was some kind of unintentional plagiarism. If there was no question of plagiarism, then it’s not entirely obvious why the plagiarism-avoidance part of the guidelines should even be germane.]
http://www.poynter.org/latest-news/mediawire/152802/questions-over-romeneskos-attributions-spur-changes-in-writing-editing/#more-152802
Questions over Romenesko’s attributions spur changes in writing, editing
by Julie Moos
Published Nov. 10, 2011 12:33 pm
Updated Nov. 10, 2011 8:28 pm
[We credit the authors and creators of the various forms of journalism we publish. We apply appropriate scrutiny to work by staff and contributing writers to prevent plagiarism, intentional or otherwise. We do not intentionally mislead with words or images. We do not deliberately deceive as we gather information.]
#40 Posted by Clayton Burns, CJR on Mon 14 Nov 2011 at 01:02 PM
[So she did use the p-word, and she did therefore imply that what Romenesko was doing was some kind of unintentional plagiarism.] Felix Salmon.
The smoking gun reference. With all due respect, Felix, and I mean that without irony, you are wrong in your rhetorical analysis.
Julie at #39 above: "Jim has offered to resign and I refused to accept his resignation." If Julie had been accusing Jim of plagiarism, she would have accepted his resignation immediately.
Julie at #39: "There was no attempt to mask the material’s origins or deliberately pass it off as someone else’s." In the absence of such attempts, "plagiarism" does not apply. The objective evidence in corpus dictionaries shows that.
Julie at #39: "... I will check the work of other contributors to determine for certain whether anyone else has been guilty of the same shortcut." This is the specific charge: guilty of a shortcut. That is not a charge of plagiarism.
Felix: "unintentional plagiarism." That is not the charge. It is in black and white as "shortcut." Please study the p-word in www.onelook.com.
That Julie used the p-word does not prove anything. We need to consider the context, rationally. The reader is not a robot twitching at any mention of p.
#41 Posted by Clayton Burns, CJR on Mon 14 Nov 2011 at 01:37 PM
Mr. Burns can split as many hairs as he likes. But an article that includes references to using another writer's verbatim language without adequate attribution, and further quotes the standards manual's language on plagiarism, is suggesting the possibility of plagiarism without saying so outright. This why, I think, Steve Buttry wrote about Mr. Romenesko's being smeared, and it is equally clear to me that that is what happened, whatever Ms. Moos's intentions may have been.
#42 Posted by John McIntyre, CJR on Mon 14 Nov 2011 at 06:39 PM
VALÉRIE BÉNÉJAM
THE REPROCESSING OF TRASH IN ULYSSES: RECYCLING AND (POST)CREATION
http://hjs.ff.cuni.cz/archives/v3/benejam.html
[The misunderstanding about "Throwaway" is probably the most meaningful focus in Ulysses on an object about to be trashed: at the end of "Lotus Eaters," Bloom gives Bantam Lyons an unwitting tip for the Gold Cup race at Ascot Heath, by telling him he can keep the Freeman newspaper he is looking at, because he was just about to "throw it away"; and Bantam Lyons, with his mind bent on races, understands this as a subtle hint to bet on the dark horse of the race, called Throwaway. Bloom might have wanted to keep the paper, but he is ready to give it away to get rid of Bantam Lyons...].
The Buttry Diary
Steve Buttry, Director of Community Engagement & Social Media, Journal Register Co.
http://stevebuttry.wordpress.com/2011/11/10/jim-romenesko-offense-was-punctuation-poynter-shouldnt-have-called-it-plagiarism/
Jim Romenesko’s offense was punctuation; Poynter shouldn’t have called it plagiarism November 10, 2011 by Steve Buttry
"Poynter shouldn’t have called it plagiarism"? How can you argue with such stubborn literal linguistic ineptitude? To compound a throwaway headline, we have a throwaway accusation of hair splitting. Weak. Weak. Weak.
#43 Posted by Clayton Burns, CJR on Mon 14 Nov 2011 at 08:12 PM
If the above hair-splitting Clayton Burns is the same Clayton Burns who wrote this lovely piece, then no further explanation is necessary. Sample:
The 60 Verb Elements of the Past represent an anatomical "slice" through English so as to reveal the 3-D dynamics of what is the most vexed area of the language for many learners.
The project is to commit the four pages to memory so as to achieve instantaneous recognition in three texts (the best short novels in English): "The Scarlet Letter," "The Turn of the Screw," and "Heart of Darkness."
The most important learner's resource is the COBUILD English Grammar, especially chapter 8 on adverbial subordination, but also chapter 7 on reported clauses, chapter 5 on the past, chapter 2 on qualifiers, and again chapter 8, on relative clauses, and on non-finite clauses.
The best initial strategic recognition approach to these verb elements of the past is to study them in the context of adverbial subordination in "The Scarlet Letter," containing clusters of result and manner clauses, and interesting conditional patterns. The method is to read the novel out loud while selectively having students identify elements and clauses.
Ye gods!
#44 Posted by Bradley J. Fikes, CJR on Mon 14 Nov 2011 at 08:28 PM
Is this our Bradley J. Fikes? Just wondering. Clayton Burns PhD Vancouver, Canada.
http://www.nctimes.com/business/columnists/fikes/ Bradley J. Fikes
INNOVATION: Students build a better light bulb
By BRADLEY J. FIKES bfikes@nctimes.com
[If you don't care for mercury with your lighting, a project by graduate students from UC San Diego and San Diego State University might interest you. The students have devised a light source using semiconductor nanowires.
Jul 27, 2011 | 5:00 am | No Comments Posted].
#45 Posted by Clayton Burns, CJR on Mon 14 Nov 2011 at 09:14 PM
I know this is probably a dead horse but does anyone remember how Matt Taibbi was treated for doing pretty much the same thing?
http://m.theatlanticwire.com/business/2011/06/rolling-stones-bachmann-article-hit-piece-hit-itself/39260/
http://www.poynter.org/latest-news/mediawire/136949/j-prof-id-fail-a-student-for-doing-what-rss-taibbi-did/
Good times.
#46 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Tue 15 Nov 2011 at 10:21 AM
http://www.dailynorthwestern.com
Q&A: Romenesko's departure highlights future of news aggregation
By Patrick Svitek
Published: Sunday, November 13, 2011
Updated: Monday, November 14, 2011 03:11
Jim Romenesko: [...] I told them I didn't think there was any wrongdoing, that the attribution was clear. The sentence that they pointed to started out by saying, ‘The Tribune reported,' or, ‘The Tribune said.' [...]
It's Huffington Post I have a problem with. Even some of the posts that I've done — memos, for example — other sites will pick up my memos, the ones that they were sent from me, and copy and paste on their site and not give me credit, or give me credit without a link, or pretty much hide my link so I don't get the traffic. --end--
I have a few suggestions:
1.Stop framing this as a plagiarism issue. That goes for all sides in the discussion. I am eager to read in Jim's new site.
2.Journalism schools should take the linguistic issues seriously. That means establishing the COBUILD English Grammar as official in J-schools in America. (There is also a very useful little COBUILD guide to reported clauses, even though chapter 7 in the advanced grammar is the best introduction to the subject). Jim could provide leadership by exploring direct, indirect, and free indirect speech at his new site.
3.Good dictionary practices. The Longman Dictionary of Contemporary English is exceptional in many formats, on CD, and for cell phone. Judges and journalists show the same lack of skill in focusing words. (The example sentences in the LDOCE are powerful in teaching reporting.)
4.We need a serious rhetoric of journalism, a reader with subtle analysis of the reporting issues, for example. The Poynter Journalism Rhetoric.
5.Just quit torquing it up and try dispassionate analysis. The psychology of learning is important. From Perry's forgetfulness we have learned exactly nothing. The New York Times reporter who interviewed psychologists on it just could not get traction. If we could master 60 verb elements of the past, we would not fumble a list of three items. If we were doctors, we would remember to wash our hands.
#47 Posted by Clayton Burns, CJR on Tue 15 Nov 2011 at 01:05 PM
Clayton remonstrates from his Grammatical High Horse:
"2. Journalism schools should take the linguistic issues seriously. That means establishing the COBUILD English Grammar as official in J-schools in America. (There is also a very useful little COBUILD guide to reported clauses, even though chapter 7 in the advanced grammar is the best introduction to the subject). Jim could provide leadership by exploring direct, indirect, and free indirect speech at his new site.
3. Good dictionary practices."
oadikiller wonders: A little help, here, please, Clayton! I'm not finding the chapter in the COBUILD English Grammar that permits the (non)sentence "Good dictionary practices." Don't we need one of those verb-thingies there?
#48 Posted by padikiller, CJR on Tue 15 Nov 2011 at 02:42 PM
It is called a concession to informality, so-and-so.
It is an easy aspect of rhetoric.
For those in the know.
#49 Posted by Clayton Burns, CJR on Tue 15 Nov 2011 at 03:42 PM
Summary of Bradley Fikes' blatherings: "I read Romenesko, and I liked it, so there was nothing wrong with it. Nothing, I tell you! Stop citing facts! I LIKED IT SO IT WAS GREAT!"
Go back to writing about light bulbs, Brad.
#50 Posted by Robert Knilands, CJR on Tue 15 Nov 2011 at 06:40 PM
[http://insidecablenews.wordpress.com/2011/11/15/get-irena-briganti/
Get Irena Briganti?
Jim Romenesko tweeted the following today…
Want to hear from TV writers, others about dealings with Fox News’ Irena Briganti. Anecdotes, email exchanges pls. THX jim@jimromenesko.com
Lots of emails re Fox News flack Irena Briganti coming in. To those asking: Prefer on the rec., but not-for-attribution stories welcome.
I have no idea what put a bur under Romenesko’s saddle regarding Briganti…but this has the potential of being really explosive. But I would expect FNC to not sit around waiting for what might come its way and put out a pre-emptive strike on Romenesko.]
#51 Posted by Clayton Burns, CJR on Tue 15 Nov 2011 at 09:12 PM
2 things -
First, IMO we need to introduce some sort of unobtrusive markup to indicate, "this is just a light edit of the original text" (so it's clear who wrote the original, but also clear that it's been modified) - since a) sometimes you *need* to change the text slightly, and b) often, as with editing existing text on a wiki page, there''s no value added - and perhaps value subtracted, if you introduce errors - in taking the time to paraphrase the existing bit of text. You don't want to take credit for someone else's work, but you do want the text to flow; and lots of quoted phrases tends to chop that up. HTML ain't print, there should be tools for this (e.g. make the info visible upon hover? and a mark that's present but not too obtrusive, to indicate "much of this text isn't original, there's 'origin' information to be found by hovering"?)
Second, I agree with your statement "It’s telling that Poynter’s site often hosts discussion and comments about articles that would be better placed on the original site.
When a comment on the original post doesn't get seen or responded to, it is a red flag.
#52 Posted by Anna Haynes, CJR on Wed 16 Nov 2011 at 05:33 PM
One quick further thought re a site's including so much of the original that it "often hosts discussion and comments about articles that would be better placed on the original site" - I think the legitimacy of this practice will depend on the relative traffic to the two sites - it's more justifiable for a low-profile site to reprint large quantities from a high-profile site, than vice versa.
Yes compared to other issues now this is mighty minor, but it's a point that I haven't seen raised yet.
(Which doesn't mean it hasn't been raised, just that a skim didn't bring it up. Wrangl.com, anyone? it'd save time & expose major points effectively...or alternatively, how could we structure a comment form to acquire this info? Successfully doing so woulld be equivalent to (if I understand correctly) iodizing salt in Africa; a minor change that'd likely have major, albeit extremely dispersed, overall results.)
#53 Posted by Anna Haynes, CJR on Thu 17 Nov 2011 at 12:38 PM
I think reasonable minds can disagree as to whether Romenesko's methods crossed the line. But what is most mystifying to me is that Moos was shocked, shocked to find this going on in her backyard. Either she is guilty of lax supervison of her underlings ("should have known") or she did know and was panicked by the impending revelations from the Columbia person. It's all rather like Reagan on Iran-Contra, she's damned in both instances. Worse, though, is her pathetic attempt to replace Romenesko with her own plodding pontifications. Seems to me we have a case of: if you can't hack it in journalism, you go into teaching it.
#54 Posted by jonesy, CJR on Thu 17 Nov 2011 at 02:27 PM
So the news industry in an ongoing state of wrenching, damaging turmoil, with the nations newspapers gasping to survive, and this is what the Poynter Institute and the Columbia Journalism Review are concerned about? The proper use of quotes on a media blog?
Really?
#55 Posted by Alex Crane, CJR on Mon 21 Nov 2011 at 12:11 PM
I think it's more Poynter's fault, specifically Moos', than CJR's fault. Moos is obviously in way over her head. How Poynter wound up with her instead of someone with more journalistic heft is worth considering.
The controversy is also a commentary on the decline of institutions and the emergence of personal brands among journalists. The Romenesko brand is much more valued than the Poynter brand. His replacement at Poynter with relative nonentities highlights that message. Romenesko was a dash of color in a sea of institutional blandness.
#56 Posted by Bradley J. Fikes, CJR on Mon 21 Nov 2011 at 09:03 PM