Amazon’s long run of not paying collecting state and local sales taxes is coming to an end as legislatures finally force the Internet retailer to compete on something of a level playing field with everyone else.
But that doesn’t mean the company isn’t trying to squeeze every last drop out of the struggling communities whose infrastructure enables its profits.
The Wall Street Journal reports that the company Jeff Bezos built on tax avoidance has sounded out at least one municipality in California about keeping for itself some of the tax revenue it will be forced to collect from consumers starting next year.
But this is something of a weak effort by the WSJ, which basically shoots down its own thesis in the third paragraph.
The Los Angeles Times’s story, which it broke nearly two weeks ago, was much better. This one from McClatchy’s San Bernardino County Sun—although it came nine days after the LAT’s scoop—also has some key information missing in the WSJ. The LAT reported in its May 19 lede that Amazon is “poised to pocket millions of dollars in sales taxes paid by California customers.”
First, a little background. The Supreme Court ruled in the early 1990s that retailers have to have a physical “nexus” in a state to be forced to collect sales taxes there. Bezos once dreamed of building his company on an Indian reservation in California to avoid having to collect sales taxes and to give his website an unfair advantage over bricks-and-mortar retailers. Bezos later started up in Washington state because it had a relatively small population and would go on to have his employees use special business cards when traveling to California, rather than the normal Amazon.com ones, in case the tax authorities happened to be on the trail.
The LAT reported that San Bernardino “is working on an agreement with Amazon that would give the retailer as much as 80% of its share of sales taxes in the first few years, according to city spokesman Jim Morris,” who ought to be plugged in since he’s the mayor’s son. Morris later told the Sun that “there will likely have to be some sales-tax sharing agreement,” though he later tried to walk back his statement, saying that “it would be incorrect to say the city was actively negotiating a tax-sharing deal.”
The Journal leaves us at the not-actively-negotiating part without noting Morris’s previously published comments.
It’s also unclear from the Journal’s piece what kind of leverage Amazon would have over the cities of San Bernardino and Patterson. After all, Amazon’s distribution centers are already under construction there, as it reports.
That’s a strange omission, particularly because it’s at the core of the LAT’s story:
California law allows some merchants to designate a legal “point of sale,” permitting them to direct 100% of the city share of sales taxes to a specific community where they have a physical presence.
This gives online retailers such as Amazon tremendous leverage to negotiate sales-tax rebates from cities that want one of their facilities.
In other words, Amazon can pit the two cities against each other in a race to the bottom on who can hand out the most lavish corporate-welfare package. That’s a huge part of the story that the WSJ just misses.
Fortunately, the paper does note that the corporate welfare issue is bigger than just Amazon. It reports that San Bernardino, which has been slammed in this recession, already gives the department store Kohl’s a share of the sales tax it collects there.
Even so, the LA Times’s earlier story was better on that area too:
The Bay Area city of Martinez this month approved a sales-tax-sharing agreement with S&S Supplies and Solutions, a seller of industrial supplies. Under that deal, the city will give up 80% of sales taxes generated by future growth in company sales. That works out to about $800,000 annually by 2015 if S&S sales hit company targets.
City Manager Philip Vince said he recommended that pact, but only because he feared that the company would relocate. “It’s kind of the worst nightmare,” Vince said. “We’d like to have the growth and the full sales tax.”
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Whoa there!
How about a Reality Check!
Now I hate to put a buzz kill on this latest Chittumistic Fairy Tale... But SOMEBODY has to do some real journalism around here.
The simple, undeniable FACT of the matter is....
Amazon isn't "avoiding" any taxes, here, despite the typical false Chittumism to the contrary. It hasn't "avoided" paying a penny to anyone. It is NOT alleged that Amazon owes a damned penny in sales taxes to anyone.
Instead, it is the CONSUMERS who aren't paying sales taxes. Amazon doesn't owe a DIME in taxes, and never did. It's CUSTOMERS are the tax cheats here.
California law, like that of most states, requires purchasers to pay sales taxes on internet purchases.
Amazon is just being roped into the role of an unpaid tax collector to facilitate cracking down on the true tax cheats.
Now, should Amazon's California customers be tracked down and charged with sales tax evasion? Absolutely.
Penalties, interest, fines and even jail time for the tax cheats who didn't pay sales taxes on their Amazon purchases!
Why doesn't the state of California simply subpoena Amazon's records, track down the true tax cheats, and punish them?
You're OK with that, right Ryan?
And how about giving your readers the truth, once in a while, huh?
#1 Posted by padikiller, CJR on Thu 31 May 2012 at 03:11 PM
Sloppy wording on my part, Padi.
I've changed "paying state and local sales taxes" to "collecting."
#2 Posted by Ryan Chittum, CJR on Thu 31 May 2012 at 05:51 PM
Great...
So Amazon doesn't owe any taxes, and bunch of its customers are tax cheats.
And Amazon is negotiating to help collect taxes when the Supreme Court says it doesn't have to.
What's the big crime here? That Amazon doesn't want to serve as an unpaid tax collector?
Well stop the damned presses! What pure evil!
And who (besides Ryan) says Amazon has any "unfair advantage" over brick-and-mortar retailers?
A brick-and-mortar bookseller has it easy. His cash register records the sales tax and once a month he sends off a check. When someone buys from Amazon, who is to say what state gets the sales tax?
I could be in New York, using my VPN from work, buy a book from Amazon's customer service center in Pennsylvania that gets shipped from Maryland, and based on the IP address recorded on the server, it would appear that my purchase was made from Virginia. Who gets the sales taxes, in this situation?
HUH?
Think your readers could benefit from a little more than your one-sided hit piece by considering issues like these?
Once again Ryan, you are up to your old, leftist, anti-corporate tricks.
You paint Amazon as some sort of "tax avoider" when in FACT there is no allegation that Amazon has ever avoided paying a penny of any tax it owes.
You fail to address the complicated issues in collecting state sales taxes on sales made through an international computer network.
And, finally, of course, you utterly ignore the plain reality that the only tax cheats in your story are the consumers, not Amazon.
This isn't sloppy "journalism". This is sloppy leftist advocacy.
And it has no legitimate place here, in my estimation.
#3 Posted by padikiller, CJR on Thu 31 May 2012 at 06:08 PM
Yeah, it's kind of funny that Best Buy has to collect sales taxes on each of its transactions and Amazon can somehow leave that burden on the consumer.
Is Best Buy allowed to do that on its internet sales? Does any other business get to uncollect sales tax and use it as a competitive advantage?
That would be a question worth asking to Best Buy and other vendors with an internet marketplace to see if there is a contrast.
Because what amazon is doing does sound kind of weird.
(In my head, the internet brings the store into your home, therefore the location of the buyer's computer becomes the location of the transaction, which forms the basis of the sales tax. In the view of current law, they seem to argue that the internet brings the customer to the warehouse, therefore the location of the warehouse becomes the location of the transaction? This is the wrong mental model folks.)
#4 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Thu 31 May 2012 at 06:16 PM
Thimbles wrote: "(In my head, the internet brings the store into your home, therefore the location of the buyer's computer becomes the location of the transaction"
padikiller responds: What if I order an e-book from a laptop on a VPN while I'm in Manhattan?
I'm in New York, but to Amazon, the computer is in Virginia.
What if I order from my cell phone, which is local to DC?
What if I'm on a plane when I order and I don't know what state I'm in?
What if I'm in Toronto?
What if I live in Virginia, but make Amazon orders from a VPN through a computer in the Isle of Man?
Ryan's simplistic hit piece doesn't address any of these problems.
#5 Posted by padikiller, CJR on Thu 31 May 2012 at 06:28 PM
That's kinda why I'm curious about what BestBuy.com or apple.com does to solve these problems.
I care about the location of the transaction. Amazon should just stick the sales tax based on the location data of the buyer.
If the buyer is technically savvy enough to game the tax with his ip's virtual location, then let's assume the shipping address as the location of transaction and charge taxes based on that.
This isn't the kind of problemthat lacks solution nor requires a kludge by assuming every customer in the nation shops at the warehouse.
You just need the right mental model to process the data and put the charge on the receipt, like every other business with a cash register does.
If all e-businesses aren't doing this, then someone should ask why.
#6 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Thu 31 May 2012 at 07:46 PM
Here's an apple site screen capture with the DC zip code I filled in:
http://s17.postimage.org/taskdfu9b/appletax.jpg
So it's not a spooky, unheard of, idea to run your e-vendor as the vendor in your window.
This is an example of people pretending something is too hard so that they can avoid doing it.
#7 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Thu 31 May 2012 at 07:55 PM
Amazon can't determine where a buyer is located.
That's my point.
Where does a transaction occur in cyberspace? Who knows?
Sometimes (as in my example of a purchase made on a plane) even a buyer can't determine where a buyer is located.
BestBuy and Apple are different from Amazon in that they have physical stores and so are required to collect taxes in any state where they have a retail store (most, if not all of them).
Virtual sites like newegg.com charge sales taxes only on merchandise shipped to locations where they maintain a physical presence, just as Amazon does.
But why should it fall to Amazon to act as an unpaid tax collector in states where it does not have a physical presence?
Forget the internet.
Let's say you run a hardware store in Wisconsin and somebody mails in an order from California. You're supposed to collect California's sales taxes?
Seriously?
Hell no. That would be stupid.
Well, the same logic applies to internet purchases.
#8 Posted by padikiller, CJR on Thu 31 May 2012 at 08:11 PM
"Let's say you run a hardware store in Wisconsin and somebody mails in an order from California. You're supposed to collect California's sales taxes?
Seriously?
Hell no. That would be stupid."
Why?
#9 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Thu 31 May 2012 at 08:48 PM
Because it is.
You run a store in Wisconsin.
You are not a citizen of California. You are not subject to California's laws. You have no legal obligation to California.
Why would you volunteer to be the unpaid sales tax collector for a foreign state? Why would you waste a stamp to send money to a foreign state? How would you know where to send it? Or how much?
Serving as an unpaid tax collector would be stupid. REAL stupid.
It is up to the buyer to pay the California sales tax. To follow the law.
The people breaking the California law in Ryan's Fairy Tale are the BUYERS. They are the tax cheats, not Amazon.
And Ryan is cheating his readers by omitting this little truism from his anti-capitalist diatribe.
#10 Posted by padikiller, CJR on Thu 31 May 2012 at 09:21 PM
"You are not a citizen of California. You are not subject to California's laws. You have no legal obligation to California."
So don't do business in California then.
"Why would you volunteer to be the unpaid sales tax collector for a foreign state?"
Do you value the business in California?
"Why would you waste a stamp to send money to a foreign state? How would you know where to send it? Or how much?"
I don't know. A company like Apple seems to be able to automate it on their website. This isn't hard for big companies like Amazon to do, and little companies could hire someone to do the automation if it were such a headache.
Or they could just not offer the service if it's not worth it.
If you are going to do business in every state, then collect the taxes and pay them.
No one if forcing you to do or not to do business in any state, but you pay the tolls of doing that business if you choose to offer it.
Be like every other business, this is not an unreasonable obligation.
#11 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Thu 31 May 2012 at 09:43 PM
Thimbles dodges and weaves: "So don't do business in California then."
padikiller responds: Let's try this again...
You are NOT doing any business in California. You have never been to California. You own a store in Wisconsin. You receive a cash payment for merchandise by mail from a resident of California and you take the money in Wisconsin and drop the shipment off at a post office in Sheboygan.
California has NO jurisdiction over you or over the transaction - the U.S. Supreme Court has said so.
There is NO legal requirement for you to do anything with regard to any sales tax. The Supreme Court of the United States has said so.
So WHY would you volunteer to be an unpaid tax collector for the state of California?
HUH?
In what alternative Thiimbilistically Chittumistic universe is volunteering to do work without pay and to take on a tax liability that the Supreme Court of the U.S. has said you don't have to take anything other than a STUPID business decision.
HUH?
Deal with reality the way it comes... In all of your dodging, you are ignoring the plain truth. Namely that the ONLY criminals in Ryan's Fairy Tale are the CONSUMERS... The California residents who buy from online retailers and then cheat on their taxes.
This is just one of those undeniable fact-thingies that Thimbilistic Chittumism can't tolerate.
But the facts are the facts, nonetheless.
And Ryan is cheating his readers by hiding from them.
#12 Posted by padikiller, CJR on Thu 31 May 2012 at 11:24 PM
Padi,
Roughly 99% of consumers don't know they're supposed to pay sales taxes when Amazon et al. don't collect them. Authorities know this, which is why they never go after them. Amazon has used this quirk of the tax system to gain a 6 percent to 10 percent price advantage over competitors--and it was founded specifically to do so. Your theoretical VPN anecdote is nice and all, but so infrequent as to be meaningless.
#13 Posted by Ryan Chittum, CJR on Thu 31 May 2012 at 11:56 PM
Ryan,
Are you doing that "journalism" thing, or just pulling this "99%" figure out of your ass? I suspect you can't back up this statistical BS and that this claim is akin to your "Gubmint is running out the clock on fraud" silliness that I debunked here a while back.
I call bullshit. I think you are just fabricating this "99%" claim.
Authorities in the Gubmint never do their jobs (in any capacity) adequately because there is no accountability in the Gubmint. That's just the real deal.
Anyway... Nice try, Ryan... But no leftie cigar for you tonight.
There is in FACT an entry for this sales and use tax on the California state income tax return.
It AIN'T particularly complicated Ryan.
So now we're back to the standard, trademarked "the people are too stupid to govern themselves" Chittumistic stupidity.
The people are just too dumb to be held accountable for obeying the laws they make, according to Ryan.
Well.... Nonetheless... You had a duty to explain to your readers that (i) Amazon violated NO laws and owed NO taxes... EVER... and (ii) the consumers (that you deem stupid) had a LEGAL DUTY to pay sales taxes.
And you breached this duty by writing that Amazon failed to pay taxes (not true) and that the company "avoided taxes" (also an utter fabrication).
#14 Posted by padikiller, CJR on Fri 1 Jun 2012 at 12:20 AM
And another thing, Ryan...
WHY should Amazon (or anyone else) decide to serve as an unpaid sales tax collector?
HUH?
I don't see you jetting down to Sacramento to volunteer your time to fill up California's coffers.
Why do you demand that Amazon donate money and time to do something it has no legal duty to do?
HUH?
Why not demand that CJR pay $5 for every website hit form California?
#15 Posted by padikiller, CJR on Fri 1 Jun 2012 at 12:35 AM
And another damned thing!
Where in the Hell are you coming up with the complete BULLSHIT claim that Amazon garners a "6 to 10 percent advantage" over brick and mortar competitors?
HUH?
In FACT, Dude (me doing that "journalism thing" that you are getting paid to do) the following states have the following maximum sales tax rates (including local taxes):
Delaware 0%
New Hampshire 0%
Hawaii 4.7%
Maine 5%
Montana 3%
Oregon 5%
In the rest of the states, the CONSUMERS have a duty to pay taxes. PERIOD.
#16 Posted by padikiller, CJR on Fri 1 Jun 2012 at 01:14 AM
And ANOTHER damned thing!
What is "bad" about using the law to gain and advantage over competitors?
HUH?
What the Hell is with this leftie BS?
HUH?
#17 Posted by padikiller, CJR on Fri 1 Jun 2012 at 01:30 AM
"You are NOT doing any business in California."
You are if your customer is filling out your web form which is processing his credit card information from his computer in California.
Does every other e-business do not this? Apple does. It shouldn't matter whether there's a physical store in the state or not, either every transaction over the web follows the same rules or they don't.
Either all web businesses need to collect and pay their sale tax receipts or they all can announce in big letters "We do not collect taxes! If you use our services and fail to pay applicable sales taxes, YOU ARE IN VIOLATION OF THE LAW!"
Amazon should be asked to display this, since it is their failure not to inform consumers of the proper use of their service which puts consumers in violation of the law AND gives the false impression that their prices are lower - when in fact there is a hidden sales tax which has to be paid at a later date.
Then other consumers can evaluate their transactions properly, since other businesses bundle the sale tax into their price.
But, I'm telling you, this kind of business is silly.
http://www.engadget.com/2012/05/31/amazon-sales-tax-new-jersey/
If you use the website in a state where the web company owns a building, the website will charge a different price to you because it's collecting your sales tax. If you don't, then the website will disavow any tax collection responsibility and claim "The consumer should do it! We put a page in the back of our website to explain it and everything!"
That is so ass-backwards.
#18 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Fri 1 Jun 2012 at 04:06 AM
You are not doing business in California just because your customer calls in an order from California. A customer can mail in an order from Russia. That doesn't place you under the jurisdiction of Russian law.
You are dodging again.
WHY would anyone agree to take on the liability of serving as an unpaid tax collector, when the law says he doesn't have to? HUH?
Under which particular school of economic thought
does it make good business sense to volunteer to serve as an unpaid tax collector?
It DOES matter if there is a physical store in a jurisdiction. The SCOTUS says so. What you think "should" be true simply isn't true.
#19 Posted by padikiller, CJR on Fri 1 Jun 2012 at 07:57 AM
"Under which particular school of economic thought does it make good business sense to volunteer to serve as an unpaid tax collector?"
The school of thought that makes every business an "unpaid" tax collector.
The e-business keeps the records of its transactions on file, which in the digital age makes it the best agent to account for and pay sales taxes.
But if that is really too much trouble for a big company like Amazon, then that's fine, so long as they inform their customers in BIG LETTERS on every transaction that their prices do not reflect the full cost to consumers and that in order for the buyer to avoid breaking the law, they have to pay their sales taxes individually.
"The SCOTUS says so. What you think "should" be true simply isn't true."
What does the SCOTUS say?
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=us&vol=386&invol=753
"'(National) does not maintain in Illinois any office, distribution house, sales house, warehouse or any other place of business; it does not have in Illinois any agent, salesman, canvasser, solicitor or other type of representative to sell or take orders, to deliver merchandise, to accept payments, or to service merchandise it sells; it does not own any tangible property, real or personal, in Illinois; it has no telephone listing in Illinois and it has not advertised its merchandise for sale in newspapers, on billboards, or by radio or television in Illinois.'
All of the contacts which National does have with the State are via the United States mail or common carrier. "
Does amazon advertise nationally? Does it promote and support its kindle product nationally? If it is engaged in active competition with local vendors AND it has in hand the location data of its buyers, then it should be collecting and remitting the taxes upon its transactions, like any other vendor.
The computer makes every e-market local. The e-business which promotes its e-market on local advertising channels is competing in local markets. The transactions on the e-market should be subject to local tax law.
#20 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Fri 1 Jun 2012 at 12:07 PM
Thimbles wrote: "The school of thought that makes every business an "unpaid" tax collector."
padikiller responds: Drivel. Most business do not collect sales taxes. Mine doesn't.
Thimbles wrote: The e-business keeps the records of its transactions on file, which in the digital age makes it the best agent to account for and pay sales taxes.
padikiller responds: It makes it the EASIEST way to do so (for the Gubmint). But WHY would any business voluntarily take on such a liability? To do so would be stupid. PERIOD.
I don't blame California for wanting to force Amazon to collect its sales taxes, but that law-thingie says it doesn't have to.
Thimbles wrote: But if that is really too much trouble for a big company like Amazon, then that's fine, so long as they inform their customers in BIG LETTERS on every transaction that their prices do not reflect the full cost to consumers and that in order for the buyer to avoid breaking the law, they have to pay their sales taxes individually.
padikiller resonds: The latest iteration of the standard liberal "people are too stupid to take care of themselves" schtick. Well the FACT is that sales and use taxes are plainly reported on every single income tax form filed in California. And the instructions are clear.
WHY is it a bookseller's responsibility to give tax advice to its customers?
Liberals are so screwy!
They think that the average American is far too stupid to pay his own taxes, buy his own car, sign his own contracts, etc... The average moron needs somebody looking after him... But somehow liberals conclude that these same hapless dupes are collectively entitled to a greater say in government and business.
#21 Posted by padikiller, CJR on Fri 1 Jun 2012 at 12:31 PM
People who sell cigarettes and alcohol are required to prominently display age limit information in order to inform and prevent consumers from unawarely violating the law. Consumers on amazon should be informed as prominently to prevent unaware violations of law.
If Amazon is not going to collect on consumers behalf, they should make sure the consumer is aware of that fact and the responsibility that puts on the consumer to pay taxes.
And if amazon is going to compete in state markets through multiple platform advertising and physical services like kindle, trucking physical shipments of its electronics to stores like Best Buy, then there is a possibility that these aspects of its business obligate it to collect on behalf of the states it competes in.
And, if it refuses to compete by law, then the state should assess penalties instead of letting the quasi-local business subtract from the state economy without compensation. If you are a competitor, pay the competition.
Otherwise stay a website and mail operation and hope the buyers drift in.
#22 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Fri 1 Jun 2012 at 02:31 PM
So now Amazon, as a manufacturer, should collect sales taxes on BestBuy Kindle sales?....
Not making a lot of sense, here, frankly, Thimbo...
Should Hershey be forced to collect sales taxes on milkshakes made in California restaurants? Truly a silly notion.
See... You are dodging the point by talking about what you believe "should" happen in Liberal La La Land someday.
In your ideal future world, companies exist only to pay high wages and even higher taxes.
I'm talking about the way things are here in Realityville, today.
In Realityville, companies exist to make money for their owners.
The question you cannot (or more accurately, will not) answer is: "Why should Amazon volunteer to take on the liability of collecting sales taxes for California, when it is not required to?"
Notice that the question is not "Why shouldn't Amazon be compelled to collect taxes when it has no duty to do so"? We all know where you and your liberal brethren stand on this question.
What possible incentive is there for this act of business stupidity on Amazon's part?
You respond by saying it would be better for California if Amazon is required to collect taxes... No doubt about this, but it is nonresponsive.
You also fail to address your own inconsistency.. You liberals think the average American is too stupid to pay taxes on his own... To buy a house or even a used car on his own, without supervision... Yet you and your comrades advocate giving these same dupes more power? Another silly position.
Citizens are responsible for paying the taxes they owe. Your employer doesn't need to put a warning sticker on your paycheck to make you responsible for filing an income tax return. It is not a bookseller's proper function to give tax advice or tax education, however the FACT of the matter is that Amazon makes such information plainly available on its website.
The simple FACT of the matter is that here and now in Realityville, the ONLY sales tax cheats in Ryan's story are the CUSTOMERS who file their California income tax returns without paying sales taxes. And Ryan cheats his readers by omitting this detail and by falsely claiming that Amazon isn't paying taxes, when he knows Amazon doesn't owe them.
#23 Posted by padikiller, CJR on Fri 1 Jun 2012 at 02:57 PM
"So now Amazon, as a manufacturer, should collect sales taxes on BestBuy Kindle sales?....
Not making a lot of sense, here, frankly, Thimbo...
Should Hershey be forced to collect sales taxes on milkshakes made in California restaurants? Truly a silly notion.
See... You are dodging the point by talking about what you believe "should" happen in Liberal La La Land someday."
That's not what I said and you know it.
The SCOTUS decision was clear about the duties of mail only businesses. If Amazon is doing its own physical distribution within a state, it is gaining the benefit of state services. If it making advertising directed to state consumers on broadcast media, then it is not competing as a mail only service which is based only in the states it maintains facilities.
You're getting all desperate I see. Flail harder, padi, you big, bought, drone.
#24 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Fri 1 Jun 2012 at 03:08 PM
The nation put up an interesting story on Amazon:
http://www.thenation.com/article/168125/amazon-effect
#25 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Fri 1 Jun 2012 at 03:48 PM