I started a post this morning about the issue causing much, um, consternation amongst the media blogs today: The Associated Press initiative to fight copyright infringement of its content.
I was all ready to write something like everybody else that said something to the effect of the AP being stupid if it thought it could restrict people from quoting a few words of its headlines and linking to them. That’s clearly what most of us think of fair use (though on breaking news I guess there could be an exemption under the “hot-news doctrine”) and the AP, as the biggest news organization in the country, ought not be on the side of infringing on the First Amendment.
But then I paused for like two seconds and thought “Is the AP really this stupid?” So I rang up media relations in New York to ask them.
Unsurprisingly, they’re really not that stupid.
The blogger line, apparently taken from a New York Times paragraph, goes like this: The AP is going to fight anybody who links to its stories or quotes a few words from its headlines—because it just doesn’t get the Internet.
Here’s a typically overheated bit from Jeff Jarvis:
The Associated Press is becoming the enemy of the internet because it is fighting the link and the link is the basis of the internet.
Damned dirty AP!
And some from Patrick Thornton (h/t Matthew Ingram):
The AP either has never heard of the Fair Use Doctrine or openly opposes it. I’m betting on the later. Now, it’s important to note that Fair Use is a defense, not a right and it doesn’t explicitly spell out anything about word counts, headlines, links, etc.
But from the people I have talked to, headlines and links fall under current definitions of Fair Use. The question then is this: Is the AP gearing up for a court battle? If they implement this policy they will find themselves in court by at least the EFF and probably many more.
You can find much more like this if you for some reason wish to.
But the AP’s Jane Seagrave, senior vice president of global product development, tells me that all this isn’t true. It has no intent to nail individual bloggers for linking to stories or quoting headlines. It’s going after wholesale theft of its content by websites trying to make a profit off of it.
“We want to stop wholesale misappropriation of our content which does occur right now—people who are copying and pasting or taking by RSS feeds dozens or hundreds of our stories.” Seagrave tells me. “Are we going to worry about individuals using our stories here and there? That isn’t our intent. That’s being fueled by people who want to make us look silly. But we’re not silly.”
If you haven’t run across these rewrite or sometimes copy-and-paste mills that steal content, you haven’t looked very hard. I asked Seagrave if she could quantify how much these sites cost it. She said it’s hard to tell, but “it’s got to be in the tens if not the hundreds of millions.” I’d like to see a firmer estimate.
She also said the “wrapper” software that’s caused so much controversy wouldn’t prevent people from linking or quoting its stories and headlines:
“This is not digital-rights management that says no you can’t,” she says. “It says this is how you can.”
It remains to be seen whether the “wrapper” will actually work and if it will have unintended consequences.
I’d also note that sites like Google pay the AP, so it’s not going after Google. It’s going after those who don’t pay it for doing things similar to what Google News does.
So, bloggers, take a deep breath, exhale, and find another bugaboo.

I enjoy reading my very good friends take. It is such a refreshing change to all off the other literary and journalistic dribble out there. A tip of the hat.
#1 Posted by Laura Hine, CJR on Fri 24 Jul 2009 at 04:11 PM
Thanks for running down a clarification. That makes a heck of a lot more sense.
#2 Posted by plain, CJR on Fri 24 Jul 2009 at 04:18 PM
While I don't doubt that the AP isn't going after everyone, what is a blogger exactly? Someone who doesn't make money? This is becoming a semantic debate.
Regardless of who the AP goes after or doesn't go after, I'm not convinced they have a legal right to go after anyone on this. We'll see how it goes.
#3 Posted by Patrick Thornton, CJR on Fri 24 Jul 2009 at 04:25 PM
I think there's approximately zero chance that these "copy and paste mills" are making tens or hundreds of millions in profit that they can provide AP with, and I'm surprised CJR wouldn't challenge such absurd claims more strongly. They're like the old claims software firms used to make about how much cash they were losing to software piracy -- as if everyone who ever copied MSWord was actually going to pay full price for it.
If each of these "mills" paid AP by the rate card maybe that's what the sums would reach. But these sites are fly-by-night SEO gambits that might make a few bucks here or there on text ads. There's no treasure in those hills. AP can shut them all down and it will still not help its business. Meanwhile, its approach *is* threatening important fair use principles.
#4 Posted by Scott Rosenberg, CJR on Fri 24 Jul 2009 at 04:31 PM
Unless the NYT flatly and totally misquoted Tom Curley, I think we better listen to the president and chief executive, not spin from the VP for "global product development."
NYT: In an interview, [Curley] specifically cited references that include a headline and a link to an article, a standard practice of search engines like Google, Bing and Yahoo, news aggregators and blogs.
Asked if that stance went further than The A.P. had gone before, he said, “That’s right.”
There is no evidence that ANYBODY is making lots of money from wholesale piracy of AP stories. Pehaps they are costing others money (itself a legitimate concern) but Seagrave's claims look like a simple smokescreen to me.
Where's the proof? Where is a single citation or example?
You are a very trusting fellow, Ryan. Not such a great trait in a reporter.
#5 Posted by Howard Weaver, CJR on Fri 24 Jul 2009 at 05:08 PM
Nice apologia for the AP, but you're missing the point: Nevermind whom the AP chooses to sue, if they reset fair use to zero and expect anyone to negotiate for the right to link, then it affects us all.
#6 Posted by Jeff Jarvis, CJR on Fri 24 Jul 2009 at 05:22 PM
Howard, so you're going to go with the phrasing of one not-exactly-clear paragraph in the NYT? You're a very trusting fellow.
But seriously, this isn't a matter of "trust," it's a matter of common sense combined with a direct conversation with a senior AP executive.
Do you really think the AP is going to sue Joe Blogger in Des Moines for linking to an AP story on his blog? Come on.
#7 Posted by Ryan Chittum, CJR on Fri 24 Jul 2009 at 05:30 PM
If you have five randomly selected newspeople in a room, you'll have eight completely different opinions about what's really happening on the Internet, and odds are that not one of them has even a basic grasp of the underlying technology. So microformats (which are a really good idea for a whole lot of reasons) get transmutated into what John Gruber calls "magic beans." See http://daringfireball.net/linked/2009/07/24/ap-hole
#8 Posted by yelvington, CJR on Fri 24 Jul 2009 at 05:33 PM
Ryan, that's Howard. He's had a bit of experience; he's worth listening to.
Beware the claim chowder...
(aka "keep your words sweet; someday you may have to eat them.")
#9 Posted by Anna Haynes, CJR on Fri 24 Jul 2009 at 05:54 PM
Ryan, thanks for picking up the phone to make a call. But I think you may have missed an important line of questioning. From your call, it sounds like AP is only interested in preventing "wholesale misappropriation" practiced by "copy-and-paste mills that steal content." I think that means cases of using more than a headline, snippet, and link or just a headline and a link. But if that's that case, then why would the AP want to arrogate to itself--by some "wrapper" whose technology is utterly unspecified in anything I've read--powers relevant to cases of "minimal use," as the Times reports? Why would it need to take a "stance" that goes "further than The A.P. had gone before"? If the AP is only talking about going after copyright infringements that obviously and flagrantly violate fair use--however murky a definition we might stipulate--why would it be the case that "Mr. Curley declined to address the fair use question"?
#10 Posted by Josh Yong, CJR on Fri 24 Jul 2009 at 06:07 PM
Given CJR's lead editorial in the latest edition and this, it is at risk of becoming the apologist for the old guard.
There are bigger issues here you are still glossing over. If the AP goes after ANYONE for linking that affects EVERYONE. You're just wishing that the AP is fine. Curley said what Curley said - I damned well trust Perez-Pena on that. Did you ask her about that?
The AP HAS gone after blogger for linking and backed off only after pressure. The instinct is still there. It is still protectionist and retrograde. Is CJR, too?
#11 Posted by Jeff Jarvis, CJR on Fri 24 Jul 2009 at 07:25 PM
CJR: >> “We want to stop wholesale misappropriation of our content which does occur right now—people who are copying and pasting or taking by RSS feeds dozens or hundreds of our stories.” Seagrave tells me.
NYT: >> Tom Curley, The A.P.’s president and chief executive, said the company’s position was that even minimal use of a news article online required a licensing agreement with the news organization that produced it. In an interview, he specifically cited references that include a headline and a link to an article, a standard practice of search engines like Google, Bing and Yahoo, news aggregators and blogs.
I'm one of the people who thinks that the AP is being run foolishly. I understand the need to make money, but I also understand that quoting a headline and pasting in a link is likely protected under US copyright statutes. In this case, I'm more inclined to believe the quote from the NYT than from CJR, which was of a PR person trying his best to sell a highly controversial idea.
#12 Posted by Erik Sherman, CJR on Fri 24 Jul 2009 at 08:00 PM
Mr. Chittum,
"So I rang up media relations in New York to ask them."
-- Did media relations say the NYT story incorrectly described what Curley said?
-- Is AP asking for a correction?
If the answer is no, then you should have been a little more skeptical of what the PR shop told you.
#13 Posted by Bradley J. Fikes, CJR on Fri 24 Jul 2009 at 08:06 PM
Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't see anything all that terrible with the AP's position. The AP has a right to protect its copyright. If it is being ripped off by clowns who want to do what Google News does, but not pay for the privilege, then it has every right to sue.
#14 Posted by Gary Weiss, CJR on Fri 24 Jul 2009 at 10:33 PM
Ryan,
The AP's goals here seem, first and foremost, to preserve the AP as an organization. With members dropping out right and left, they need to find a new raison d'etre, and it looks like they've decided they want to be the RIAA.
Taking a page from the RIAA playbook, they a) dont need to sue EVERYONE; just sue enough people to make a difference in the population at large, and b) provide different explanations of what it is they're trying to do to different audiences. The AP wanted one message to go out over the NYT to the people who read it (esp. Google); they wanted a second one to go out here, ie, to the "bloggers." But because their goal is to rewire the system in such a way that general content licensing becomes the default, not the exception, their fine as long as they create general confusion.
In short: you're getting played. Back to RW1.
#15 Posted by C.W. Anderson, CJR on Fri 24 Jul 2009 at 10:40 PM
If the wrapper is just aimed at flagrant plagiarists, why did AP's leadership not try to communicate that explicitly? Or better yet, try to develop a product that would only go over those people.
And if its leaders didn't agree with all the ridicule they got online, why did it take somebody at CJR to call them up and get an explanation?
This still doesn't add up.
#16 Posted by Eric Eldon, CJR on Sat 25 Jul 2009 at 12:42 AM
Even if AP won't go after individual bloggers right away, it reserves that right to do so. Their definitions are also intentionally vague. So, this is still a sham and nothing has been clarified.
#17 Posted by Jack, CJR on Sat 25 Jul 2009 at 02:00 AM
The whole AP approach - and one frequently supported by CJR - is that the woes of journalism are somehow the fault of people "stealing" traditional media content. It's a comforting thought because it tells traditional journalism that the problem is not their fault, that someone else is to blame.
But this is obviously false. I don't see any cut and paste copy mills raking in millions of dollars. In fact, most link farms and blogs are fly by night operations that are the domain of hobbyists or people who earn a few bucks for their effort.
This whole effort is basically a waste of time by AP. The real issue is that a free ad on Craigslist is better and more effective than a paid ad in a newspaper (online or hard copy) - and the only people who don't understand that are oldtimers. Only a sucker would buy a newspaper classified ad - its a waste of money.
#18 Posted by travira, CJR on Sat 25 Jul 2009 at 08:11 AM
In June 2008 Cory Doctorow of BoingBoing wrote a post about the AP selling these "quotation licenses." If you want to quote 5 to 25 words from an AP story, you're supposed to pay them $12.50 for a quotation license. If you want to quote 26 to 50 words, that will cost you $17.50. How about 51 to 100 words? That will be $25.00 please, and you'd better not use the quote to defame the AP or they'll revoke your license. Cory concludes, and I quote him for free:
"Welcome to a world in which you won’t be able to effectively criticize the press, because you’ll be required to pay to quote as few as five words from what they publish... The people pushing for this stuff are not well-meaning, and they are not interested in making life better for artists, writers, or any other kind of individual creators. They are would-be aristocrats who fully intend to return us to a society of orders and classes, and they’re using so-called 'intellectual property' law as a tool with which to do it. Whether or not you have ever personally taped a TV show or written a blog post, if you think you’re going to wind up on top in the sort of world these people are working to build, you are out of your mind. "
#19 Posted by Marilyn Terrell, CJR on Sat 25 Jul 2009 at 09:19 AM
A lot of smoke from CJR on this issue --
How about some data so we can make up our own minds.
What practice, exactly, is it that is hurting the AP? Please provide examples.
#20 Posted by Dave Winer, CJR on Sat 25 Jul 2009 at 11:30 AM
If AP is going to start selling by the quote, then why in the world should sources not also start doing the same thing? I will give you a bland 10 word quote for $5 but a really good 50-word one is going to cost more. If the whole system gets that crass and the product is made into a commodity like sausage, it gets a lot harder for journalists to turn around and demand no-charge FOIAs et al.
#21 Posted by travira, CJR on Sat 25 Jul 2009 at 11:39 AM
What if you (site z) paid for a quote (or other high value bit of content) in a traceable digital wrapper and then you were paid (by site A) each time your viewers linked from that digital wrapper to the source (Site A) and paid for the full article?
#22 Posted by Katherine Warman Kern, CJR on Sat 25 Jul 2009 at 12:36 PM
Curley sounded pretty specific that he wanted the AP to get paid for any reference to its news articles. Unless the New York Times was way out of line in quoting him, it wasn't bloggers trying to make the AP look "silly" as Seagrave said. It was the New York Times, an AP member making them look silly.
Seagrave kind of seems to be sidestepping Curley's comments by saying the new tagging system isn't designed to extract payment or say what can't be done. Curley never suggested that it would do that. He was commenting on the new system that's designed to help track potential abuses and in addition to that, he was also commenting on blogger an aggregator use in general.
As for looking silly, I've been trying to get someone from the AP to talk to me for months about these issues. I'm pretty knowledgeable about tagging systems, search engine use of news content, rights issues and so on. I've called AP's media line just like you have. I was told no execs would speak on the topic. I tried again on Friday. No response.
It's fine for AP *reporters* to quote me as an authority on search issues in AP articles, but apparently the AP itself can't talk to me? And they worry about looking silly? Perhaps if they actually spoke to more bloggers who try to reach out to them, we'd be able to better explain their viewpoints.
One of my questions was how bloggers could license AP content. Because that's what Curley wants, right? But I can't get an answer on that. I even used two different methods on the AP site to try to get information on licensing it my Search Engine Land web site. No response -- which isn't the type of good business practice you'd expect from an organization that complains so much about being ripped off.
#23 Posted by Danny Sullivan, CJR on Sat 25 Jul 2009 at 01:36 PM
Re Patrick Thornton's statement:
"Now, it’s important to note that Fair Use is a defense, not a right and it doesn’t explicitly spell out anything about word counts, headlines, links, etc."
From the NYT article:
Tom Curley, The A.P.’s president and chief executive, said the company’s position was that even minimal use of a news article online required a licensing agreement with the news organization that produced it. In an interview, he specifically cited references that include a headline and a link to an article.
So.. which one is correct - the original statement or the one they gave you AFTER the backlash?
Suggested reading: http://journalismschool.wordpress.com/2009/07/24/what-would-fair-use-look-like-in-an-online-era/
#24 Posted by invisiblepilot, CJR on Sat 25 Jul 2009 at 02:15 PM
At the risk of being sued by the AP I am going to link to a story from two weeks ago in which an AP business reporter asked me for comment on the new AP policy.
AP proposes new article formatting for the Web
By ANDREW VANACORE (AP) – Jul 10, 2009
http://bit.ly/3uFYE8
Given all the heat I and the Media Bloggers Assoc. got last year after we agreed to have our lawyers represent Rogers Cadenhead of Drudge Retort in his copyright disputed with AP (and successfully extricated him from their legal crosshairs) I was leery of being quoted by AP talking about a new AP program designed to address their concerns about copyright infringement.
When I asked to know more first I was sent the following press release:
http://bit.ly/16ZVIV
Based on that press release I Googled for "microformats" to understand better what was being described in the press release. That led me here:
http://microformats.org/
After learning more about it I suggested that the AP reporter contact Dave Winer who would be about the best person I could think to comment on this topic given the overlapping issues involved. I gather that conversation did not take place.
What I did notice is that the AP initiative is tied to "Value Added News" which the press release described as "part of the transparency initiative, a joint project with Sir Tim Berners-Lee and his Centre for Web Science (the WSRI). The transparency initiative is funded through grants from the MacArthur Foundation and the Knight Foundation." These are not people I generally associate with being luddites about the web or blogging and so that gave me my pause.
I am sure this will get my sued but here is the relevant passage from the AP story on itself:
In other words, whatever merit there might be to the AP's approach, they are tone deaf when it comes to understanding how their actions will be perceived in the blogging/social media/citizen journalism space. So far the response has been entirely predictable and could likely have been avoided had people like Mr. Curley sought input from the very same people commenting here.
I will add one final note. In my experience, The New York Times is the least reliable source for these sorts of stories and so I would not accept any article they write or any quote they include in a story as accurate.
#25 Posted by Robert Cox, CJR on Sat 25 Jul 2009 at 02:32 PM
I don't know anyone who considers the AP worthy of quoting.
#26 Posted by CDW, CJR on Sat 25 Jul 2009 at 05:12 PM
Whatever the AP does with its content doesn't really matter, because the AP will not survive on the Internet - it has no place here.
#27 Posted by Jeff Sonderman, CJR on Sat 25 Jul 2009 at 06:38 PM
Chittum has three choices:
(1) Get Curley on the record about the NYT article
(2) Retract
(3) Let the crickets keep chirping andl ose credibility
CJR will also lose credibility if it's (3). Does CJR really think it can ignore the criticism, here and elsewhere on the Web? Such an institutional mentality would explain Chittum's condescending attitude toward blog concerns.
#28 Posted by Bradley J. Fikes, CJR on Sun 26 Jul 2009 at 12:56 PM
The way I see it the problem would not necessarily be the AP going after "Joe Blogger in Des Moines," but using this "wrapper" to make legit hyper-linking and citation, if not impossible, complicated. The phrasing in the NYT interview makes the AP comes across as greedy and revengeful, "if Google makes money, so will we by charging for the use of our links." How can that statement be defended?
#29 Posted by Ernesto Priego, CJR on Sun 26 Jul 2009 at 01:44 PM
"...makes the AP come across". Apologies for the typo above.
#30 Posted by Ernesto Priego, CJR on Sun 26 Jul 2009 at 01:47 PM
"If you haven’t run across these rewrite or sometimes copy-and-paste mills that steal content, you haven’t looked very hard."
Yet you couldn't name or link one of them?
#31 Posted by mike, CJR on Mon 27 Jul 2009 at 02:30 AM
The AP could use something like Tracer, now being used by Creative Commons. Or an anti-plagiarism system like the one used by universities. Fighting plagiarism is one thing, wanting to make profit from fair use citations is something else altogether.
#32 Posted by Ernesto Priego, CJR on Mon 27 Jul 2009 at 03:51 AM
The link: http://creativecommons.org/weblog/entry/16060
#33 Posted by Ernesto Priego, CJR on Mon 27 Jul 2009 at 03:54 AM
No reply from our ace reporter this morning. Maybe he's doing what a professional journalist should have done in the first place, talking directly with Curley.
#34 Posted by Bradley J. Fikes, CJR on Mon 27 Jul 2009 at 11:20 AM
Sorry, folks. Was out celebrating the anniversary this weekend.
Where to begin?
Anna--I know who Howard Weaver is and have always liked much of what he has to say.
Josh--the AP told me it thinks its headlines have value and doesn't want sites that don't pay the AP for them to take them wholesale. So, from my understanding, AP's stance is that Google News pays the AP for its headlines and snippets, so why should somebody else do something similar and not pay? Not fair to Google News.
Which brings me to Jeff Jarvis, who has an interest in the Daylife aggregator. Correct me if I'm wrong, Jeff, but I believe Daylife pays the AP for its content.
So, Daylife and Google News and others license AP content to do what other aggregators are doing without licenses. AP wants more people to pay for its content like yall do.
And Jeff, I'm not apologizing for the AP or the old guard and neither is CJR. I'm trying to get the story straight.
Erik, believe what you will, but "senior vice president for global product development" is not a PR person.
Bradley, I did ask the AP about that NYT paragraph. Again, Seagrave told me they're not going to go after some blogger who uses one headline and a link here and there. They want to stop "wholesale use." See AP's victory last week over a rewrite mill that was repurposing its content.
Gary gets it!
C.W., I don't think so. If the AP uses this to go after the above-mentioned Joe the Blogger in Des Moines for linking to a story with a headline, I'll be the first one to scream. Also, I'm a blogger, too. I quote at length and link to stories multiple times every day. This is what I do for a living, and I'm not worried about my job.
Eric, I'm not going to defend AP's communications strategy. Clearly it leaves much to be desired.
Jack-- maybe so, but any unlucky blogger who gets sued by AP for what is clearly fair use can use this post for their defense: "Are we going to worry about individuals using our stories here and there? That isn’t our intent. That’s being fueled by people who want to make us look silly."
Travira--I don't think so. Neither CJR nor I blames consumers for this stuff. After all, it ain't "stealing" if publishers give it away for free. Also, not sure what Craigslist has to do with the AP, which gets about 1/4 of its revenue from newspapers.
Marilyn--I've never been charged $12.50 for quoting five words and linking to a story. Have you? I'll do it right here (updated to fix link and copy): "AP setting up tracking system for Web content."
Dave--that's not the subject of this blog post, but here's some:
"Mr. Pitkow said a study in January of 250,000 articles from 25 publishers showed that on average, each article appeared on 11 unauthorized sites. Looking at traffic data, Attributor calculated that five times as many people read each article on pirate sites as on the site of the publisher. And it estimated that collectively the publishers were losing $250 million a year from unauthorized copying."
Take that with a grain of salt or the whole shaker since the study was apparently created by the company.
Travira--see my response to Marilyn.
Katherine--I don't know.
Danny--I don't know why the AP won't call you back. They ought to. That's just bad business.
As to Curley sounding pretty specific in the NYT--I don't see a quote from him to that effect. You can parse that paragraph several different ways. Here's a hint, though, from two paragraphs down: "Search engines and news aggregators contend that their brief article citations f
#35 Posted by Ryan Chittum, CJR on Mon 27 Jul 2009 at 12:07 PM
Hey, sorry I'm not on your schedule, Bradley. I've been working on this comment for a good while now.
#36 Posted by Ryan Chittum, CJR on Mon 27 Jul 2009 at 12:12 PM
Ryan,
"Bradley, I did ask the AP about that NYT paragraph."
That's didn't answer my question.. Here it is again:
"Did media relations say the NYT story incorrectly described what Curley said?"
If yes, I'd like you to elaborate on just what the inaccuracy was. Did Curley say these things or not?
And I also asked if AP is calling for a correction.
I hope you now understand what the issue is. It's not whether someone else at AP told you something different than what the NYT quoted Curley as saying. It's whether Curley was accurately quoted. If not, the NYT wrote a false story. If he was, then AP is talking out of both sides of his mouth.
#37 Posted by Bradley J. Fikes, CJR on Mon 27 Jul 2009 at 03:08 PM
AP has been heavy-handed at times, and ignored my suggestion that they allow some bloggers to join and use their stories and pictures for a free just like news"papers" do. The paper part will be obsolete soon. They would not even give me a price quote, because even though much of their revenue now comes from Yahoo and others, they are still print biased...
#38 Posted by GW, CJR on Mon 27 Jul 2009 at 03:11 PM
Ryan,
"Hey, sorry I'm not on your schedule, Bradley. I've been working on this comment for a good while now."
Snark in haste, repent at leisure.
You attempted to refute quoted statements from Tom Curley with someone of lesser rank. You published that bait-and-switch misdirection late on a Friday and went off to enjoy the weekend. It would have been more professional to have first nailed down your facts. Then you wouldn't have to face seeing your story's premise eviscerated in your own comments.
#39 Posted by Bradley J. Fikes, CJR on Mon 27 Jul 2009 at 03:51 PM
Super informative post. On my PR blog I just asked - Is the “social media” really “social” or “media”? i hope you all find it interesting and useful:
http://paulseaman.eu/2009/07/is-the-social-media-really-social-or-media/
#40 Posted by Paul Seaman, CJR on Mon 27 Jul 2009 at 04:19 PM
Bradley, I'm not repenting for anything, nor has my story's premise been "eviscerated." Nor did I "refute" Curley's statements. Nor were there "quoted statements from Tom Curley" to refute.
That paragraph you're pointing to paraphrases Curley and doesn't say that what he's talking about applies to a single use by some dude—something that would be bonkers on its face. I asked the AP about the NYT graph, and they said what Curley was talking about there does not apply to individual bloggers. You won't have to apply for a license to quote the AP on your blog.
Again, I'll point you to this quote from Seagrave:
"We want to stop wholesale misappropriation of our content which does occur right now. People who are copying and pasting or taking by RSS feeds dozens or hundreds of our stories."
#41 Posted by Ryan Chittum, CJR on Mon 27 Jul 2009 at 04:20 PM
Thanks for your reply, Ryan. I may agree that the AP "is not out to get" a humble blogger, but it is legit to be concerned about the consequences of the recent declarations. I know the post was about bloggers-- it's bloggers and Twitter users who (also) hyperlink to stories and cite headlines, and we use Google and other search engines like everybody else. Most of the fair use information exchange online is done through hyperlinking. That's a given.
My point was not about Google, but about the difference between thinking that the AP "is out to get us" and being concerned for the changes this would bring to the fair-use information exchange online.
If some kind of "wrapper" is embedded in all AP items, then presumably all hyperlinking would be affected, wouldn't it? From reading the NYT piece, which is what I think we have been discussing, I am not convinced there is no evidence that the AP would not affect anyone --no matter who they may be-- trying to link to their stories. Is this a legitimate concern?
#42 Posted by Ernesto, CJR on Mon 27 Jul 2009 at 04:21 PM
NB: I posted the above comment before reading Ryan's comment posted at 04:20PM.
#43 Posted by Ernesto, CJR on Mon 27 Jul 2009 at 04:24 PM
"AP's stance is that Google News pays the AP for its headlines and snippets, so why should somebody else do something similar and not pay? Not fair to Google News."
That's AP's stance. It is not Google's. They were very specific when signing the deal with the AP that it was NOT for the right to index stories and list them. They claimed it was for "new uses" that wouldn't be covered by copyright law. I have not seen Google change its stance on this. Of course, doing the deal allowed Google to side-step a potential legal suit on the matter.
#44 Posted by Danny Sullivan, CJR on Mon 27 Jul 2009 at 04:41 PM
Ryan,
"Again, I'll point you to this quote from Seagrave:"
The quote says nothing about whether the NYT mischaracterized Curley. Why don't you try addressing that point?
"I asked the AP about the NYT graph, and they said what Curley was talking about there does not apply to individual bloggers. You won't have to apply for a license to quote the AP on your blog."
If the NYT's characterization of Curley is indeed "bonkers on its face," Curley should be eager to talk with you. If not, maybe you should apply some skepticism to the line of "What Mr. Curley really meant to say . . ."
#45 Posted by Bradley J. Fikes, CJR on Mon 27 Jul 2009 at 04:57 PM
Nieman Lab tweets about having trouble getting a straight answer from AP regarding copyright:
"Lost my temper earlier with Jack Stokes of @AP_CorpComm because no one at the AP will answer my questions about their copyright stance."
http://bit.ly/IVPRd
Can you say "Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt"?
#46 Posted by Bradley J. Fikes, CJR on Mon 27 Jul 2009 at 07:31 PM
Ernesto, my understanding is that the "wrapper" doesn't affect linking at all. It contains information that tells the reader/user how it can be used and allows AP to track how it's used.
Danny, right it's AP's stance, but Google's language sounds like a bit of legal ass-covering.
Bradley, I don't think there's a fact error in that NYT paragraph, though the context is unclear from what the AP says. For more on that, see my latest post.
#47 Posted by Ryan Chittum, CJR on Mon 27 Jul 2009 at 08:50 PM
Ryan,
That's a non-answer to my questions:
-- Did media relations say the NYT story incorrectly described what Curley said?
-- Is AP asking for a correction?
These questions are in plain English. Is there anything that prevents you from answering them?
#48 Posted by Bradley J. Fikes, CJR on Mon 27 Jul 2009 at 09:34 PM
No and no.
see my comment here:
http://www.cjr.org/the_audit/more_on_the_associated_press_c.php
#49 Posted by Ryan Chittum, CJR on Tue 28 Jul 2009 at 02:30 PM
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