There’s a wide range of opinion about which covert strategies are acceptable and which are not. The Society of Professional Journalists’s (SPJ) code of ethics leaves some room for “surreptitious methods of gathering information when traditional open methods will not yield information vital to the public,” adding that, “use of such methods should be explained as a part of the story.” The New York Times’ guidelines say that reporters need not “disclose their identity to people they cover,” but state unequivocally, “Those working for us as journalists may not pose as anyone they are not.”
Kroeger’s view jibes with that of SPJ. After determining whether a clandestine strategy is legal, she said, the next questions are whether the information is important enough to justify the deceit, and whether a reporter has exhausted all other means of getting it. In both cases, however, the bar should be pretty high.
In 2005, for instance, the Spokane Spokesman-Review revealed a history of sexual misconduct by then-mayor Jim West in part by hiring a forensic computer expert to anonymously engage West in online chats posing as a young man. “Under ordinary circumstances, the newspaper would not use a fictional scenario in pursuit of a news story,” the paper’s editor explained in a note to readers published alongside its exposé. “But the seriousness of the allegations and the need for specific computer forensic skills overrode our general reluctance.”
A number of journalists and pundits have argued that the Heartland documents obtained by Gleick did not reveal anything important enough to validate his deception. In terms of the individuals and organizations, from General Motors to Microsoft, that have provided financial support to Heartland, that might be true. But revelations about the misleading global warming curriculum for K-12 schools, about allegations of partisan political activities that might amount a violation of federal tax law governing nonprofit groups, and about potentially improper payments the institute made to an employee of the Interior Department come closer to the mark.
Whether or not Gleick, or a journalist in his position, could have obtained the documents without using deception is certainly a matter for debate. It’s unlikely the group would have shared its fundraising plan or budget with the press, but, for instance, it’s conceivable that a reporter could have convinced an actual whistleblower within the organization to give him the documents. It’s also conceivable that Heartland would have discussed the school curriculum, which it presumably planned to tout at some point anyway.
It’s hard to imagine, then, that after answering the three big questions about deception—Is it legal? Questionable. Is it worth it? Questionable. Is there another way? Probably.—that a news outlet would have acted as Gleick did.
There’s a phrase for what Gleick did: wire fraud. Whether or not he is indicted on it is another story, but its pretty clear cut.
All the more ironic considering Gleick was the chairman of the American Geophysical Union ethics taskforce. But the spin on this is nice: the ends justify the means.
#1 Posted by Mike H, CJR on Thu 1 Mar 2012 at 02:46 PM
I'm concerned that in this debate about the right and wrong of Dr. Gleick's actions the comments have been made by others supporting his actions that the "good" is suppressing the ability of the Heartland Institute to express its veiws regarding claimate change. How is it in the good of the general public to use deceptive methods to suppress the free speech of others? I thought that in a democracy we are supposed to allow each ot have his say, most importantly with those who disagree with us. To say that it is a greated public good to lie or use identity theft to get information which will help stop someone from speaking their mind is not a greater good to society.
#2 Posted by Bill, CJR on Thu 1 Mar 2012 at 03:00 PM
It would be an intriguing case. Gleick's team would certainly find cause for Heartland to disclose masses of material behind their funding so-called climate scepticism - and it may be hard to separate that from their pro-smoking material. Heartland are probably considering those consequences. Many woujld say Heartland is covertly influencing children's education; there may be a greater good at stake.
#3 Posted by John , CJR on Thu 1 Mar 2012 at 05:03 PM
"To say that it is a greated public good to lie or use identity theft to get information which will help stop someone from speaking their mind is not a greater good to society."
A) no one has been stopped from speaking their minds. Don't confuse the idea of speech liberty with the idea of speech unaccountability. People deserve to know the background and interests of speakers in order to measure the weight of their speech. When theft, lie, and fraud were applied to climatologists(climate gate), left wing groups (moveon), community activists (Acorn) few were the defenders of their right to speech without intimidation and misrepresentation. Heartland has not been misrepresented. Heartland is more of an offender than a defender when it comes to failures to respect others liberty of speech, especially as it pertains to the content of private communications versus board meeting minutes and corporate documents.
B) liberty always erodes in the presence of secrecy. Public good is always bolstered by the increase of public knowledge. Individuals who withhold or misrepresent public knowledge become enemies of the public. It is important that these people be called out for their actions in harming the public. That is what heartland does and they are paid well to do it. It is better the public become aware of these people and their agendas lest they get deceived and end up supporting policies counter to their interests based on heartland words.
Crike, just the other day we had a neo-con implying that left wing msnbc was somehow enabling Pat Buchanan because of the way they lap up anti-Semitic foreign policy.
http://www.cjr.org/campaign_desk/pat_buchanan_and_his_enablers.php
It's kind of important to know that background when parsing the content of what he writes, otherwise you might think that it's an established cjr writer claiming the left is a wee too much anti-jew if they're going to give old pat a platform.
People say science, especially climate science, needs to be more transparent since the ramifications of the research are so significant (and yet you won't see these people speak on the topic of transparency in biotech, where the impact is potentially more significant on our food supply because the ramifications of that research are extremely lucrative) but you see very few voices demanding transparency from the critics of science, nor basic ethical standards like honesty.
And if we are going to hold Glieck to these high standards of openness and honesty, then it is time we held everyone to these standards including those accepting industry money funneled through outfits like APCO and Heartland to peddle bad science and false information to the public.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/georgemonbiot/2012/feb/24/christopher-booker-heartland-climate
#4 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Thu 1 Mar 2012 at 05:06 PM
It's not necessarily federal wire fraud, Mike H - DoJ guidelines require some amount of material gain for Gleick or loss for Heartland, neither of which are proven at this point.
Start here at DoJ: http://www.justice.gov/usao/eousa/foia_reading_room/usam/title9/crm00941.htm
#5 Posted by Brian Angliss, CJR on Thu 1 Mar 2012 at 05:11 PM
Thimbles babbles: "People deserve to know the background and interests of speakers in order to measure the weight of their speech".. "liberty always erodes in the presence of secrecy"
padikiller scoffs: Nice screed from a guy posting pseudonymously. What's good for him, isn't good for others...
The lefties take anonymous donations by the millions.
Thimbles is just illustrating the typical leftist hypocrisy.
#6 Posted by padikiller, CJR on Thu 1 Mar 2012 at 05:24 PM
liberty always erodes in the presence of secrecy.
Except when we are talking about Journo-O-List
Individuals who withhold or misrepresent public knowledge become enemies of the public.
Except when its climate scientists who destroy data funded with public money and which is covered under FOIA laws.
It is important that these people be called out for their actions in harming the public. That is what heartland does and they are paid well to do it. It is better the public become aware of these people and their agendas lest they get deceived and end up supporting policies counter to their interests based on heartland words.
Except when it’s the Sierra Club taking tens of millions from gas companies to promote their agenda. I know … good liberals don’t have to say they are sorry, what was I thinking.
Crike, just the other day we had a neo-con implying that left wing msnbc was somehow enabling Pat Buchanan because of the way they lap up anti-Semitic foreign policy.
I resent that!! If you want to get it on, go pin your yarmulke back and come over to my house. If you need directions, I live right next door to Freddy’s Fashion Mart in Crown Heights. Don’t forget to bring a gas can.
Sorry, I don’t know what got into me … guess I have been watching too much MSNBC.
#7 Posted by Mike H, CJR on Thu 1 Mar 2012 at 05:37 PM
"A) no one has been stopped from speaking their minds."
Apparently Mr. James Garvey thinks it is the greater good to stop Heartland from speaking their mind -
"What Heartland is doing is harmful, because it gets in the way of public consensus and action. Was Gleick right to lie to expose Heartland and maybe stop it from causing further delay to action on climate change? If his lie has good effects overall..."
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2012/feb/27/peter-gleick-heartland-institute-lie?CMP=twt_fd
If the observer thinks the opponent is speaking a "lie", then it is ok to commit identify theft to obtain other documents which the observer thinks casts a poor light on his opponent? What does "stop it (Heartland) from causing further delay..." mean if it does not mean to seek to prevent Heartland from speaking?
#8 Posted by Bill, CJR on Thu 1 Mar 2012 at 06:26 PM
Thanks, CJR, for publishing this excellent and thorough examination of the ethics and law involved. This is a notable contrast to the snap judgments in the NY Times and other media that what Gleick did was unethical or illegal. As I thought, it's a much closer question than that.
#9 Posted by Harris Meyer, CJR on Thu 1 Mar 2012 at 08:22 PM
"Nice screed from a guy posting pseudonymously. What's good for him, isn't good for others..."
Dunce..
If I were making pronouncements as "Dr. Thimbles, PHD in Life, the Universe, and Everything" then I would expect people to check my background since I am using my position and implied experience as a reason for readers to take my speech seriously.
I am nobody.
I am not Dr. Fred Singer, Senior Fellow of the Environment at the Heartland Institute. I do not expect anyone to take my words and treat the as authoritative. Everything I say, I expect readers to verify and validate for themselves because I'm just a Thimble commenting on a website.
How many times am I going to be called upon to testify in front of congress? None. How many times am I going to be interviewed by media for my climate insights? Zero. How many people and institutions am I speaking on behalf of? One. Myself. A person who is nobody.
There was an interesting article a ways back that I read where blogging was compared to other media since blogging is a low trust environment. Because blogging is low trust, arguments on blogs could not rely on trust to establish their case. In order for blogs to make their case they had to build it, elaborate on it, and be prepared for their users to attempt to tear it down. Low trust users ended up passing on more information and explaining it in more detail as a result of being low in established trust.
And that's what I attempt to do. Don't take my word on an issue, look my words up and see for yourself if the argument is strong.
These APCO outfits do the opposite in that they pose as authorities to sell the perspective of their funders in the hopes that the public will "take their word for it, the science can't be trusted".
If you are going to speak as an authority or as a member of an organization or on behalf of an organization - you should disclose.
If you're going to comment on a blog, who f'in cares.
#10 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Thu 1 Mar 2012 at 11:15 PM
"Except when we are talking about Journo-O-List"
:roll eyes:
Seriously, get out of your basement.
"Except when its climate scientists who destroy data funded with public money and which is covered under FOIA laws."
Some of that data was not theirs to release, most of that data was destroyed in archive updates. And yeah, there are bitter feelings towards people who use FOIA requests as a harassment strategy.
I'm not justifying it, but what I saw was less out of nefarious motive than it was out of human error.
Unlike the garbage that regularly comes out Heartland.
"Except when it’s the Sierra Club taking tens of millions from gas companies to promote their agenda. I know … good liberals don’t have to say they are sorry, what was I thinking."
No I think that is awesome that you brought that up. I didn't know that.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/14/science/earth/after-disclosure-of-sierra-clubs-gifts-from-gas-driller-a-roiling-debate.html
Wow. Puts some of the sierra stuff into a different light. Thanks for revealing that.
"I resent that!! If you want to get it on, go pin your yarmulke back and come over to my house. If you need directions, I live right next door to Freddy’s Fashion Mart in Crown Heights. Don’t forget to bring a gas can.
Sorry, I don’t know what got into me … guess I have been watching too much MSNBC."
Of what I've ever watched or read of Al Sharpton, and I haven't watched much because what I saw was a train wreck and I don't know if he has a blog, he's not used to comment on foreign policy or to talk about its capture by jews.
But I could be wrong since both Al Sharpton and Ed Shultz are kinda not worth my time. Chris Hayes and Rachel Maddow are cool. Most of MSNBC is meh to me. Chris Matthews is unwatchable and Joe Scarbourgh is a 3 hour long human rights violation.
Give me wonky stuff. The "Look at what the republicans said today!" stuff bores me.
#11 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Thu 1 Mar 2012 at 11:41 PM
Can't seem to put together the right google incantation to summon the old "non-authority of anonymous blogger forces blogger to use stronger arguments" article, but I stumbled across this on the way:
http://www.informationisbeautiful.net/visualizations/climate-change-deniers-vs-the-consensus/
and this:
http://motherjones.com/politics/2011/03/denial-science-chris-mooney
So it wasn't fruitless.
#12 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Fri 2 Mar 2012 at 12:05 AM
Looks like that cjr neocon who was making the argument that "the people I disagree with are anti-semites!" wasn't a one off.
"Neocons went after Media Matters and CAP in a full-page ad in the New York Times today. They specifically targeted the funders. And they used a quote from Spencer Ackerman without permission. Sick crew."
http://www.committeeforisrael.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/CAP-MM-NYT.jpg
"Oh my heavens! What about their freedom of speech?"
Tell me, how does this campaign differ in desired negative consequences from the campaign against Heartland? Do you fear the information Glieck obtained will be used against Heartland the way the right uses obtained information everyday? Are you afraid that Glieck's actions will reduce Heartland's freedom of speech the way neocons are trying to reduce media matters and the center for American progress as we speak? Oh the humanity.
#13 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Fri 2 Mar 2012 at 06:54 AM
Spencer Ackerman's take on the neocon smear:
http://www.attackerman.com/how-i-came-to-lead-the-jews/
And oh yeah, back on the topic of climate:
http://dotearth.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/03/01/a-co2-warning-etched-in-stone-and-sedimen/
#14 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Fri 2 Mar 2012 at 07:10 AM
Thimbles: "I am nobody."
padikiller responds: So then your opinion is worthless and nobody should give you the time of day, right?
Thimbles drones on: "If you are going to speak as an authority or as a member of an organization or on behalf of an organization - you should disclose."
padikiller responds: Unless you're Peter Gleick, in which case you should falsify your identity, lie to others about to obtain private information, anonymously dump it in the blogosphere, only come partially clean when you're busted by the metadata in the crude forgery you promulgate, and then hide from everybody after you issue an "apology".
There's the open side of the "consensus" science, for you.
These screwy leftist climate zealots are resorting to Ratheresque tactics because the Earth isn't cooperating with their anti-corporate need for it to warm up.
And they'll do anything - lie, cheat, steal, obfuscate, collude, conspire, exclude, retaliate... ANYTHING to keep the global warming charade alive as long as they can,
Well... The simple FACT of the matter is that, according to NASA, the Earth COOLED from 1998 to 2011.
We're dealing with 13 year GLOBAL COOLING TREND.
Thimbles is just parroting the leftie Whine du Jour over Heartland's pitiful funding... The leftist advocacy groups who take in many times more than Heartland does have accepted anonymous donations for years... Greenpeace, the WWF, etc.
The Environmental Defense Fund thanks 141 anonymous donors.
And, Thimbles, if you're really and truly worried about "liberty eroding" in the face of anonymous donations, then you really ought to jump on CJR and tell them to quit soliciting them on CJR's website.
#15 Posted by padikiller, CJR on Fri 2 Mar 2012 at 07:15 AM
"So then your opinion is worthless and nobody should give you the time of day, right?"
That's up to them. I don't expect anyone to say to anyone else "You're wrong because Thimbles says...". No one should trust an anonymous speaker's words. Whether that implies 'word worthlessness' or not depends on how much status you require before you'll give a person a listen.
"Unless you're Peter Gleick, in which case you should falsify your identity, lie to others about to obtain private information, anonymously dump it in the blogosphere"
Oh. I never knew you were a critic of the late great Breitbart. In fact you used to be proud of the 'scalps' he took based on false identities and false information. And the anonymous thief of the Climategate emails has never been revealed. Have you ever spoken an ill word of him/her/them?
If Glieck is being paid by industries to slant his data and to push pet policies and solutions then he should disclose. If he had dumped false information, then we should not trust a word he says. If it is proven he forged that document, I will be first in line to call him a loser and take him off my Christmas card list.
Otherwise we have nothing to talk about. What Glieck did was what some very good investigative reporters have done, but is more often done now by law enforcement and activists - and the right of activists to do so is under attack.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/14/us/14video.html
"Well... The simple FACT of the matter is that, according to NASA, the Earth COOLED from 1998 to 2011.
We're dealing with 13 year GLOBAL COOLING TREND."
And by the exact same facts, from 1999 to 2011 we're dealing with a global warming trend. 1998 was a weird year.
Don't take it from me, take it from Pat Michaels who was speaking at the Heartland Institute- pat speeches 1:40, 5:10, and 7:15 in.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QwnrpwctIh4
"The leftist advocacy groups who take in many times more than Heartland does have accepted anonymous donations for years... Greenpeace, the WWF, etc."
If they are taking anonymous donations (as in "Thanks for your donation, whoever gave us this money") without obligation to slant data and parrot talking points from their donors, then there is no conflict.
(And cjr has been pretty good at mentioning Goldman Sachs as one of their funders even as they do coverage very critical of them.)
If they are taking secret donations and they are in a position to sell their donor's perspective to the public, then they should disclose. You would if you were a journalist. Are we holding activists like Glieck and Heartland to basic journalistic standards or not?
#16 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Fri 2 Mar 2012 at 12:31 PM
There is the law, which is quite clear by your article, and there is the attitude of journalists. The kind of reactions published in the last week suggest that if Peter Gleick had been a journalist for the Washington Post or ABC News, he would have been far less vindicated. Even if, legally, he is on the same ground.
#17 Posted by Pascal Lapointe, CJR on Fri 2 Mar 2012 at 12:39 PM
Thimbles whines: And the anonymous thief of the Climategate emails has never been revealed.
padikiller responds: There is no evidence that the Climategate emails were stolen. There's that, after all. Indeed, all indications are that a whistleblower posted them on a Russian server.
But hey! Why let the mere facts get in the way of another Liberal Fairy Tale, right? If we keep calling them "stolen" or "hacked" then we'll make our Tale come true!
Thimbles, you need to put on your big boy britches and grow up. What Gleick did was not only wrong and probably illegal, but also clearly driven by a political agenda. No true scientist would feel the need to engage in such juvenile deception. As for the ethics of such misrepresentation in journalism, when this tactic works against you guys (as it did in taking down ACORN) you guys cry like a bunch of sissies. When such deception is used to further you agendas.. Well then, it's hunky dory! Pure hypocrisy. Plain and simple.
As for the Global Warming nonsense... According to the best data... We have a 12 year warming trend, as you note... A 13 year cooling trend, as you are forced to concede... A very slight 150 year warming trend.. And, most likely, a more substantial 800 year cooling trend.
Now THERE is some hard data we can use to shape policy! Of course, you guys aren't interested in data - you just want to shut down private enterprise and let the Gubmint run things.
And finally, for the record... I never supported Breitbart's undercover tactics - though I noted that they were highly effective (which they were). Gleick's tactics would have been similarly effective if he hadn't been busted peddling a BS memo and if the information he discovered actually showed some sort of misconduct in Heartland's part (which it didn't).
Better luck next heist.
#18 Posted by padikiller, CJR on Fri 2 Mar 2012 at 01:09 PM
I hope Curtis Brainard isn't calling this investigative journalish because it's not.
It sounds more like what a PR firm or defense attorney would write. "The ends jusitfies the means" when the ends has yet to be determined. What a fraud.
#19 Posted by DCA, CJR on Fri 2 Mar 2012 at 01:20 PM
Who is evil here? Heartland is a private institution seeking to influence public policy with a few millions, similar efforts as to NGOs with hundreds of millions at their fingertips.
If you approve of Gleick's actions, then probably also approve of Climategate, wherein 'leading' alarmist scientists sought to suppress research counter to the 'right message.' Even going so far as to get an editor fired for running research that didn't fit alarmist views.
#20 Posted by Larry Logan, CJR on Fri 2 Mar 2012 at 01:37 PM
I think you need to be blunt: Gleick worked for an organization that is preparing curricula for school-children, so is essentially a competitor to Heartland. He impersonated an officer of his competitor and stole financial information. He made this information public, exposing these private entities to harassment, thus inhibiting future funding. (Harassment has happened in the past, which is why they do not publish their donors list.)
Not only that, he published the private addresses and cellphone numbers of his competitor's Board, exposing them to harassment, which has also happened in the past.
He was not accused of forging the controversial document because he came forward and claimed they were anonymously sent to him. He was first identified as the forger -- because of several unique items in the document -- and then he came forward and admitted to everything *except* the forgery.
So the question is: when someone obtains confidential financial documents from a competitor, spins them with a forged document, claims that they are an insider, and then in the end says, "Hey, I was an investigative journalist!", what does the Journalism Review have to say?
He did not go undercover. As you say, the idea that a journalist could pretend to be someone looking for a grocery store job has a long tradition. But Gleick didn't do this: he impersonated a specific officer of a competing organization. This was a specific impersonation, not just a generic "Hi, I'm looking for a job and have some experience in stocking vegetables."
#21 Posted by Wayne, CJR on Fri 2 Mar 2012 at 01:40 PM
Brian Angliss (#5):The DOJ guidelines do not determine the nature and scope of a crime, the federal statute is controlling. Your point is that there is no material gain or loss resulting from the wire fraud for either Gleick or Heartland is rubbish. Acquiring Heartland's donor list and funding details is enough of a gain to prosecute Gleick. Giiven the current political environment in DOJ, there may not be any prosecution immediately. That will change in January 2013 when Holder is replaced and all of his henchmen and minions are fired.
BTW, Gleick violated a CA law that makes impersonated someone else on the internet a felony.
See: http://wattsupwiththat.com/2012/02/23/dr-peter-gleick-may-have-run-afoul-of-a-new-cyber-impersonation-law-in-california/
Gleick is in for some hard time.
#22 Posted by Paddy, CJR on Fri 2 Mar 2012 at 01:58 PM
Something I noted when listing the various journalists who used fake identities to get information. They created fake identities for people who didn't exist, they didn't "steal" someone else's identity.. That's a line Gleick crossed.
#23 Posted by John T, CJR on Fri 2 Mar 2012 at 02:15 PM
So first we pretend that Gleick is a journalist operating pursuant to a professional journalistic intention. Unspoken but tout le monde knows his intended target is evil. Therefore it is all happening in some kind of a largely forgivable gray area in which almost everybody does it. Right. Got it.
This article is a good example of how the near-tribal partisanship of the chattering class had degraded the intellectual and moral acuity of a generation. If Curtis Brainard is among the journalistic elite and can produce an analysis this mushy, then it really must be all over for Old Media. Maybe it is just as well.
#24 Posted by George Tobin, CJR on Fri 2 Mar 2012 at 02:29 PM
The biggest problem with Gleick's actions: He didn't lie to get the documents to add to the discussion. He lied to get documents that he thought would shut down the debate. He was so infuriated that people would debate the he was willing to do whatever necessary to shut down the other side. Shut them down. They can't be heard.
Attempting to shut down debate is the mark of someone with doubts about his ability to carry the debate with facts and persuasion.
#25 Posted by Buckland, CJR on Fri 2 Mar 2012 at 02:29 PM
The issue of course is the "malice" issue. While some court cases show that dissemination of forged and fake documents may not be a crime, for the journalists and newspaper to continue distribution of such information when they KNOW the document is forged and faked? That is a serious problem of trust here and just outright dishonestly to continue distribution of a fake document with KNOWLEDGE of doing such.
In other words, these blogs and people don't care if the documents are forged anymore? In other words as long as this supports the "cause" then it is ok? Just ask Dan Rather how that worked out? In other words because the fabrication was "wished to be true" and it the point of view contained is what one wanted to make known then Dan Rather was justified here? I don't think so!
So now the fact that a document is forged and fake is ok and to be ignored? And as noted going under cover is a MUCH different action than lying and impersonation of a board member to obtain documents (as others pointed out this is wire fraud). An undercover journalist cannot forge a check and walk out of a bank with money and claim that it is the banks fault they gave him the money and that such fraud was justified for the "greater good" because the bank is bad.
Ignoring the forged and fake document, the other documents show nothing of wrong doing but they MOST certainly damage Heartland since their trust with donors has been breached. In other words because I don't like a bank, I am now going to public expose all of their credit card holders and that is ok? Even if no fraudulent credit card purchases are EVER made, the damage to those customers in their ability to trust in the bank will already have occurred.
#26 Posted by Super Turtle, CJR on Fri 2 Mar 2012 at 03:03 PM
Mr. Gleik is a liar and a thief and you wish to make excuses for him. Got it. Thanks for the insight!
#27 Posted by John Gf, CJR on Fri 2 Mar 2012 at 03:12 PM
Gleick's actions are criminal -- deliberately to destroy/damage the Heartland Institute. You may dislike/disagree with Heartland, but there is NO evidence that Heartland has acted criminally or in bad faith on global warming. None.
Thus, this article is simply wrong and ideologically driven.
More __p from Col J Rev. A pox on your crumbling house.
#28 Posted by Alex, CJR on Fri 2 Mar 2012 at 03:13 PM
Oh goody, here comes the TROLL PARADE!
"Queen troll obfuscates: There is no evidence that the Climategate emails were stolen. There's that, after all. Indeed, all indications are that a whistleblower posted them on a Russian server.
Therefore FACT FACT FACT WHARRGARBL!"
indication != FACT
If Heartland documents were stolen, and I believe they were even though it was really the institution who handed them over to a false identity, then the climategate emails were definitely stolen since they not only involved a transfer of property, but also a violation of property in order to get them off the University server. And people like Bradley Manning and anonymous hackers are in jail because of stuff like that.
"Queen troll drools between snicky snacks: Thimbles, you need to put on your big boy britches and grow up. What Gleick did was not only wrong and probably illegal, but also clearly driven by a political agenda."
And when did you have a problem with that?
"No true scientist would feel the need to engage in such juvenile deception."
Every true scientist is a human being. What he's done as an activist has no bearing on what he's done as a researcher. The quality of his research is the measure of his quality as a scientist. What he does in his email is irrelevant to that.
Steven Hawking got divorced and may now be a swinger. Does this mean his theories on black body radiation are invalid?
"Queen Troll flatulates: As for the ethics of such misrepresentation in journalism, when this tactic works against you guys (as it did in taking down ACORN) you guys cry like a bunch of sissies. "
Go search my comments. My problem with the ACORN coverage is that they lied to us through edited footage and false backstories (like O'keefe not being dressed as a pimp / speaking as a college boyfriend, not as pimp / claiming later that he walked in with a feather boa and pimp cane), not that they lied to ACORN. Just like with Shirley Sherrod video. Just like with the NPR Schiller 'sting'. If Glieck has lied to us then he's no better than Breitbart.
But then the question is if Glieck is as bad as Breitbart, how bad would that make him to you?
"Queen troll is forced to concede: We have a 12 year warming trend, as you note."
Hey a real fact! You are capable!
"Queen Troll bloviates: And finally, for the record... I never supported Breitbart's undercover tactics [Sure you didn't. Like cjr doesn't have a record] though I noted that they were highly effective (which they were). Gleick's tactics would have been similarly effective if he hadn't been busted [like Breitbart had multiple times] peddling a BS memo and if the information he discovered actually showed some sort of misconduct in Heartland's part (which it didn't)."
Sure it didn't.
White as driven snow.
"Better luck next heist."
Heist? What heist? Glieck is a whistleblower!1!!
(You have only yourselves to blame.)
#29 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Fri 2 Mar 2012 at 03:36 PM
"...that would teach students—incorrectly—that “there is a major controversy over whether or not humans are changing the weather.”.."
Um? Whichever side of the fence you are on, how can you deny that there is a major controversy going on? Trenberth famously said that it was "a travesty that we can't account for the lack of warming...". Not one of the continuous predictions of danger has come true over the past 20 years.
This doesn't mean that Global Warming is completely disproven - or proven - but it surely means there is a controversy. You sound like Al-Sahhaf (Comical Ali) as he claimed there were no American soldiers in Baghdad to the sound of gunfire. And people are going to believe you about the same amount...
#30 Posted by Dodgy Geezer, CJR on Fri 2 Mar 2012 at 03:50 PM
Thimbles -- it seems that you're really mad that your little cabal is collapsing!
Too bad the only damning thing in the "leak" from Heartland was a fake "Strategy Memo" forged by Gleick/coconspirator to damage Heartland, "Leaked" ON THE SAME DAY HE REFUSED HEARTLAND'S $5,000-to-your-favorite-charity DEBATE!!!!!
When Gleick was criminally impersonating a real, live different person to obtain documents from a private/privately funded organization to corroborate some grand conspiracy delusion (falsified by the actual, real documents), why didn't Gleick just ask for a "new", authenticated copy of the "Strategy Document"?
#31 Posted by Alex, CJR on Fri 2 Mar 2012 at 03:56 PM
The parallels with Watergate are interesting.
Modern day hacking and data theft are more akin to the Watergate burglars than to the whistleblowers you extoll.
Sadly, modern journalists tend to side with the burglars rather than follow the example of Daniel Ellsberg.
Your parallells with subterfuge to uncover criminality are decidedly dodgy.
Heartland were not doing anything either illegal or underhand. Their mission is a well known libertarian approach which is all that was revealed.
Ellsberg comparisons are laughable.
#32 Posted by jimmy benson, CJR on Fri 2 Mar 2012 at 04:08 PM
Gleick's initially co-mingling the fake memo with the real Heartland information is clearly unethical and not analogous to any "investigative reporting." This is the kind of thing that can get a Pulitzer revoked.
There is no debate in the journalism community over the ethics of including the fake memo in with the real stuff. As for Gleick's legal case, I sure hope he can produce an envelope with the proper postmark.
#33 Posted by Frederrick Michael, CJR on Fri 2 Mar 2012 at 04:09 PM
To know that there's a major controversy going on about climate change, all the author has to do is read what climate scientists like Roger Pielke, Sr. and Judith Curry are saying, along with the scientific reports about the potential role of cosmic rays in cloud formation, the Atlantic Multidecadal Oscillation and black carbon. This rote "no-controversy" denial gets more threadbare each time it's used.
#34 Posted by Bradley J. Fikes, CJR on Fri 2 Mar 2012 at 04:10 PM
Look at all the beautiful little trolls and the clown car they drove in .
#35 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Fri 2 Mar 2012 at 04:16 PM
Bork my link will you?
#36 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Fri 2 Mar 2012 at 04:19 PM
Gleick didn't leak information to the Press. He leaked a fake document with fake information in an effort to make Heartland look evil. The real information he got from the real documents he sent out was already available to the public on Heartland's Web site. And there was nothing ominous about any of it. Quite the opposite. No big bucks from Koch industries, no plot to stop schools from teaching science, no scandal of any kind. All of this was nonsense he fabricated.
To praise someone for "exposing" a fabricated (non-existent) scandal is insane. What Gleick did was was a classic smear to deceive the Press and the public, and to harm an imaginary enemy. He's no hero; he's a crook, a charlatan, a libeler, a faker, a hoaxer, and a fame-seeker. Note that he put himself in the fake document as a central figure under alleged attack from Heartland: the complete opposite of reality. Heartland had warmly invited him to speak at one of its functions, and had treated him beautifully, offering to donate five thousand dollars to the charity of his choice. He declined the invitation, and smeared Heartland instead.
The man is victimizer, not a victim; a villain, not a hero. He is not a journalist and not a whistle-blower. He didn't divulge anything bad about Heartland. HE MADE ALL THE BAD STUFF UP.
#37 Posted by Anton, CJR on Fri 2 Mar 2012 at 04:20 PM
Thimbles: "ad hominem, ad hominem, ad hominem"
#38 Posted by Alex, CJR on Fri 2 Mar 2012 at 04:21 PM
“there is a major controversy over whether or not humans are changing the weather.”
This is absolutely correct. While it may be the opinion of the left, and even a plurality or majority of the whole population, it is only *supposition* that humans are changing the weather in any meaningful way.
Put another way, what observations would show that humans are *not* changing the weather in any meaningful way? What does "natural" weather and "natural climate change" look like, past, present or future?
Those claiming to be scientists need to start off with their falsifiable hypothesis before claiming things are "correct" or "incorrect".
#39 Posted by Jere Krischel, CJR on Fri 2 Mar 2012 at 04:22 PM
"The real information he got from the real documents he sent out was already available to the public on Heartland's Web site."
Then nothing was stolen. You can't steal public documents.
Of course then you have to ask why heartland is sending out lawyers trying to get the documents all taken down, if they're so public and non-damaging and blah blah blah.
Bleat on, you crazy sheeple!
#40 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Fri 2 Mar 2012 at 04:29 PM
Ok, thimbles, a debate:
1. Is the "Strategy Memo" a fake or not? If fake, which mountains of evidence say it is, (and most likely at Gleick's own hand) then how is Gleick NOT GUILTY of fraud when he sent it out to press/blogs as "from Heartland" and emailed from an "Heartlandinsider" email account?
2. If Gleick was not criminally attempting to intimidate an ideological/scientific (take your pick) opponent, then why did he SPECIFICALLY ask for Heartland's Board contact info and then include it in the package to be released publically. If you're not aware, these were Board Member's home addresses, phones (land and cell), etc. ALL after he had be told by Heartland (when they were graciously trying to invite him to debate at their own annual charity event) that the reason they didn't release funder information was because of public intimidation.
#41 Posted by Alex, CJR on Fri 2 Mar 2012 at 04:37 PM
Oh, and radical greens are already attempting to bully the Board members and Heartland's funders as a result of Gleick's criminal activities (both California law and Federal U.S.).
You might say, "so what, they should be shamed!"
To which I reply: UNAbomber
#42 Posted by Alex, CJR on Fri 2 Mar 2012 at 04:46 PM
I do not know on what planet the writer of this article lives, but once he claimed that there is no controversy over anthropogenic global warming, I stopped reading. The fact that he got the easy part so wrong, I figured that rest was not worth reading. For those who read this comment and would like to learn more, I recommend "wattsupwiththat.com" one of the most viewed science blogs in the world with over 100 million hits. Anthony Watts should do an IPO. The other site is run by Judith Curry, a climate scientist at Georgia Institute of Technology. I highly recommend the reader go to Dr. Curry's blog "judithcurry.com" and particularly read her post http://judithcurry.com/2010/11/03/reversing-the-direction-of-the-positive-feedback-loop/. If you go to either site, make sure you search Dr. Richard Lindzen's recent (February 2012) presentation to the House of Commons. On the Watts site make sure you search Dr. David Evan's recent paper "The Skeptics Case - Who are you going to believe - The Government Climate Scientists or the Data."
#43 Posted by Ronald Abate, CJR on Fri 2 Mar 2012 at 04:47 PM
This is one of those things I love about outlets like CJR. As part of the liberal establishment, they relish their role of adjudicator of what’s right and wrong. When a conservative gets into trouble over a breach of ethics they play the pile role, furiously linking to every other liberal outlet they can find in order to present this wall of consensus on the bad guy. But when one of their own gets caught with their hands in the cookie jar, like Gleick, a ruling of guilty on a pretty clear cut case becomes “complex” and one that needs “perspective”.
Basically its code for it sucks when our ox gets gored, the ends justify the means and the cardinal rule that being a good liberal means never having to say you are sorry.
#44 Posted by Mike H, CJR on Fri 2 Mar 2012 at 05:01 PM
>>Steven Hawking got divorced and may now be a swinger. Does this mean his theories on black body radiation are invalid?
No, but if he committed fraud to discredit others who disagree with his theory yes such behavior WOULD fact put into question his theory. It is one thing to have a moral indiscretion, but this shows he is willing to lie and comment fraud to further his position on AGW.
This was not some night club indiscretion, but a DIRECT action based on fraud to further his science view and discredit those who have different views.
Simply amazing the spin you folks can put on this stuff to jusifify this action.
If he willing to lie to further his point of view then this most certainly does put into question what other acts such a person is willing to commit in the name of supposed science. The climate gate emails refer to the "cause" in many places.
So we have to keep in mind this was not Bill Clinton getting laid in the Whitehouse, but activism in the name of a "cause" apparently greater than honest debate, truth and real science.
#45 Posted by Super Turtle, CJR on Fri 2 Mar 2012 at 06:01 PM
The Supreme Court has held that the internal corporate information is property. Suppose Gleick were a sales manager at company X who used deception to obtain the client list of a competitor Y. Would that be theft of information obtained by fraud? You bet. No difference here: Gleick used deception to steal information he had no right to.. Strong evidence suggests he further attempted to libel Heartland by creating and disseminating a false memo. Theft. Fraud. Libel. QED.
Gleick in a league with Bradley Manning and Daniel Ellsberg ? Not even close. Both Manning and Ellsberg purloined and disseminated government documents, not private information. Both worked for that government, Manning directly as a soldier and Ellsberg as an employee for a company under government contract. Gleick had no employment relationship with Heartland, a private non-profit. Manning will probably go to jail for a long time; Ellsberg probably would have, were it not for government bungling during his trial. Gleick may have violated CA and federal laws; Heartland will likely sue him down to his bestockinged Birkenstocks.
Any attempt to put Gleick in a pantheon of leftist heroes will be an EPIC FAIL.
#46 Posted by Anna Keppa, CJR on Fri 2 Mar 2012 at 06:39 PM
Just a quick drop in:
"1. Is the "Strategy Memo" a fake or not? If fake, which mountains of evidence say it is, (and most likely at Gleick's own hand) then how is Gleick NOT GUILTY of fraud when he sent it out to press/blogs as "from Heartland" and emailed from an "Heartlandinsider" email account?"
Yeah, it's likely fake. It's possible that it was forged by Glieck, it's possible it was sent to Glieck. It's a mystery until further information comes out.
To commit fraud one requires knowledge of the fraud. Glieck did, with full knowledge, impersonate someone fraudulently. If he did not know the memo was fraudulent, he did not commit fraud in sending it while assuming it was from Heartland. Wrong assumption != fraud.
I doubt "heartlandinsider" can be considered fraud due to the fact that the label was used as an email address. If he had carried on correspondence with journalists as if he was "inside Heartland" then yeah, that would be fraud.
And if he did forge the memo then yep, he's a fraud.
"2. If Gleick was not criminally attempting to intimidate an ideological/scientific (take your pick) opponent, then why did he SPECIFICALLY ask for Heartland's Board contact info and then include it in the package to be released publically. If you're not aware, these were Board Member's home addresses, phones (land and cell), etc. ALL after he had be told by Heartland (when they were graciously trying to invite him to debate at their own annual charity event) that the reason they didn't release funder information was because of public intimidation."
What Glieck was trying to do was what heartland and Watts have done to climate scientists, make the public question their motives and integrity, which really should not be news to the public:
http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/blogs/national-affairs/heartland-institutes-corporate-shilling-is-nothing-new-20120222
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8012901811669462665
But that is the way it is. Now when it comes to intimidation tactics, people on the left have NOTHING on the right. When people on the left disagree with someone, we make snarky remarks in our emails. The more extreme will chain themselves to a tree.
When people on the right disagree with someone, they send death threats, call them 'sluts' on the radio, and perhaps even bomb them - so let's not get into a pissing contest over who's more civil. The right has used boycotts and going after funders for decades. I posted the recent neocon push against media matters just above. Don't pretend you're all tender now because someone dropped some documents on your doorstep.
No one's sending threatening emails to your kids because you chose to be a honest climatologist. That's not the case for the people who were smeared in climategate, who still struggle to get the best information they can out just so people paid off by exxon can tear it down with half arguments and non-science ("Cosmic rays everybody! Look what they did to Johnny Storm!") using a compliant media that requires a 'debate' in order to report.
#47 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Fri 2 Mar 2012 at 06:49 PM
"Scott Mandia, a scientist and co-founder of the Climate Science Rapid Response Team (which helps reporters find experts in the field), told The Guardian that Gleick “used the same tricks that any investigative reporter uses to uncover the truth.”
In the UK a number of journalists have been arrested by the police for accessing the cell phone messages of, among others, public figures, politicians, celebrities and victims of crime and their families. Journalists have even listened to messages left on the cell phone of a schoolgirl who had been murdered.
A journalist and a private investigator have already been convicted and served prison sentences.
As a result of such behaviour a public enquiry, named the Leveson Enquiry " is examining "the culture, practices and ethics of the media. In particular... the relationship of the press with the public, police and politicians."
"Lord Justice Leveson opened the hearings on 14 November 2011, saying: “The press provides an essential check on all aspects of public life. That is why any failure within the media affects all of us. At the heart of this Inquiry, therefore, may be one simple question: who guards the guardians?”
If Gleick is suspected of a crime he should be arrested. It doesn't matter that he is a scientist, a journalist or a blogger. Should the evidence for the crime be strong, Gleick should be charged and the case put before a criminal court. Let the court decide on guilt.
#48 Posted by mdf, CJR on Fri 2 Mar 2012 at 07:06 PM
Have you looked at California Penal Code Section 528.5? It went into effect on January 1, 2011 and makes it a crime to impersonate another living person in order to defraud. It seems to me that it very likely applies to this case. It's only a misdemeanor but also allows for civil penalties to be imposed.
#49 Posted by Bill Jamison, CJR on Fri 2 Mar 2012 at 07:08 PM
Thimbles wrote: "When people on the right disagree with someone, they send death threats, call them 'sluts' on the radio..."
padikiller responds: Well, Thimbo...
If not a "slut", what would you call an unmarried lady who trots up to Congress begging that somebody give her other people's money so that she can have sex with the frequency and in the manner she wants?...
She's basically telling the world that she's having so much sex that she's going broke, and she expects "somebody else" to give her sex money.
A rose by any other name is still a rose...
And a slut is a slut, after all, no matter how you spin it.
#50 Posted by padikiller, CJR on Fri 2 Mar 2012 at 07:25 PM
Thimbles, thanks for admitting most of reality. You can't seem to admit that by forwarding to reporters and issue bloggers (journalists by many standards) something that arrived to him "anonymously" (we're never told how, i.e. U.S. mail, slipped under the door, etc) along with a cache of relatively innocuous authentic docs, Gleick was perpetrating the fraud that a doc of unknown provenance was, in fact, definitively from Heartland.
Geez, he even used the email "Heartland Insider."
But hey, wallow in your ideological obtuseness.
#51 Posted by Alex, CJR on Fri 2 Mar 2012 at 07:31 PM
"'The real information he got from the real documents he sent out was already available to the public on Heartland's Web site.'
"Then nothing was stolen. You can't steal public documents.
"Of course then you have to ask why heartland is sending out lawyers trying to get the documents all taken down, if they're so public and non-damaging and blah blah blah.
"Bleat on, you crazy sheeple!
#40 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Fri 2 Mar 2012 at 04:29 PM
---------------------
Wrong Thimbles; what they're asking sites to take down is the FAKE document, and anything else that hasn't been confirmed as genuine and unaltered from the originals. That's prudent and intelligent of Heartland.
You are the lamb following Gleick over a cliff.
By fabricating and planting "evidence" of wrongdoing against Heartland, by attempting to poison the well of public opinion (which seems to have worked, if some of the letters here are indicative), by framing an innocent organization and innocent people for something they didn't do, and placing them in unnecessary danger, Gleick has proved himself to be like every other witch finder, inquisitor, crooked cop, corrupt prosecutor, political dirty trickster, and demented ideologue. What an unconscionable scumbag.
#52 Posted by Anton, CJR on Fri 2 Mar 2012 at 07:35 PM
Joseph Goebbels would certainly have approved of the fake memo.
#53 Posted by Roger, CJR on Fri 2 Mar 2012 at 07:38 PM
"Fake but accurate" sums up the AGW-alarmist positions which are sympathetic to and supportive of Gleick. It is what happens when a religious cause overwhelms the sense of reason.
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2012/02/29/fake_but_accurate_science_113294.html
#54 Posted by Dave L., CJR on Fri 2 Mar 2012 at 08:03 PM
Curtis jumps the shark. Compare and contrast CJR's spin on Climategate ("stolen emails" that were actually leaked) and this debacle ("leaked" emails that were actually stolen).
I'm sorry Curtis, but whatever credibility you may have had is gone. Kaput. You could tell me the sun is shining and I'd have to check it twice.
#55 Posted by JLD, CJR on Fri 2 Mar 2012 at 08:54 PM
An amazing text. It should be a postcard for the current state of journalism.
I am European and East Europeans will recognize all elements of manipulation not far from Pravda in this text.
#56 Posted by LL, CJR on Fri 2 Mar 2012 at 09:18 PM
Sort of a trainwreck watchin thimbles and padikiller trying to out dunning kruger the other.
Gleick is an unethical thief, and Brainard should truly be embarrassed by the ends justifies the means mentality of his defense in the face of the facts discussed in the comments.
And Rush Limbaugh is a jackass and anyone who has ever had sex, padikiller, with a woman, padikiller, with a live human woman, padikiller, knows that whether she makes love 30 times a month, or once a month, or just thinks she may have sex ina a month, she still needs to take one pill a day.
Curtis, your idiot essay, the idiot comments herein, all demonstrate a need to nuke the planet from orbit.
Note: "Note: Several minutes will pass while the system is processing and posting your comment. " What the hell? Several minutes?
#57 Posted by jay, CJR on Fri 2 Mar 2012 at 09:44 PM
jay wrote: "anyone who has ever had sex, padikiller, with a woman, padikiller, with a live human woman, padikiller, knows that whether she makes love 30 times a month, or once a month, or just thinks she may have sex ina a month, she still needs to take one pill a day"
padikiller: No she doesn't "need" to take one pill a day. She E-L-E-C-T-S to take one pill a day. Women spent the first ten thousand years of human civilization without birth control pills, and nothing has changed in the last 50 years to create a "need" for them.
There are alternative forms of birth control. Here's a simple rule of thumb for you... If you can't afford a rubber, you can't afford to take the chance.. So don't. Take some damned personal responsibility over your own gonads.
I have no problem with any woman deciding to have sex with anyone she chooses and I have no problem with any woman choosing whatever type of birth control she wants....
But I DO have a problem with this woman demanding the Gubmint force "somebody else" to give her money so that she can have sex when and how she wants.
What do you call someone who solicits money from others in order to have sex? HUH? I mean, how much "sluttier" (by definition) can one get, honestly, than going to Congress to demand money to subsidize sex? Seriously.
Using this lady's logic, why not pay for the lube and and the pasties? Why not spring for the motel room? Or the strawberries and whipped cream. The whips and chains Whatever else...
What's next after we start doling out money to suit the particular sexual appetites of such beggars? Do we let food stamp recipients demand Kobe beef and caviar because they have particularly refined palates? Do we make Medicaid pay for private rooms and room service to suit the tastes of patients? Do we get Bentley to build our school buses?
STOP the madness, people!
#58 Posted by padikiller, CJR on Fri 2 Mar 2012 at 10:14 PM
"Sort of a trainwreck watchin thimbles and padikiller trying to out dunning kruger the other."
For you it's a trainwreck, for me and Paddington it's just another day on CJR. Don't take it too seriously, he feeds on your hate.
"Curtis, your idiot essay, the idiot comments herein, all demonstrate a need to nuke the planet from orbit."
*takes bow for his part*
Any day someone decides your posts merit you the xenomorph treatment, has been a good productive day.
Have a good productive day :)
#59 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Fri 2 Mar 2012 at 10:39 PM
And still the leftist media types -- like those who run CJR -- wonder why so much of the public views them with such distrust. Nice job in reinforcing that distrust, Chairman Navasky.
#60 Posted by Bradley J. Fikes, CJR on Fri 2 Mar 2012 at 10:40 PM
Wow must say this piece is a whole lot of fluff combined with some nice propaganda at the end...
"But revelations about the misleading global warming curriculum for K-12 schools,"
Yes god forbid people counter poplar ideas such as blacks aren't human or jews belong in ovens and teach FACTS AND SCIENCE over ignorance and computer models.
Eugenics was proven wrong in the 1920-2010s yet people like Curtis Brainard continue to push it in our schools as some kind of valid science. Greenpeace, WWF and countless others produce pro-eugenics propaganda which schools teach, yet you're angry that someone dared produce anti-eugenics science such as heartland to teach in schools what thats say about you personally...
All the fancy legal hand waving that you have posted is meaningless because in the end the docs even the fake one have nothing in it that one could argue from a sane perspective is "evil", illegal or in anyway releasing them serves "the greater good/public good". Now I know for the doomday cultists such as yourself that believe cow farts will ignite the world on fire that you will argue and continue to argue that that is indeed the case please do... keep making yourselves look like the doomsday cultist who believe the jews are mind controlling the cows that fart to burn the world to the ground and the only fix is eugenics and massive genocide...
#61 Posted by robotech master, CJR on Fri 2 Mar 2012 at 10:57 PM
"“What you wouldn’t gather” from the coverage at major newspapers, media watchdog Jim Naureckas pointed out, “is that there is a long and honorable tradition, from Nellie Bly feigning madness to expose mistreatment of the mentally ill to the Chicago Sun-Times’ Mirage Tavern corruption lab, of investigative journalists using false identities to gather information—when the public interest is clear, and there’s no other way to get the story.” Naureckas noted a couple of other famous examples. In 1992, ABC News reporters used false identities to get jobs at a Food Lion grocery store and secretly film improper food-handling practices. In 2007, Harper’s Ken Silverstein’s impersonated a fictitious representative of Turkmenistan to trick a couple of Washington, D.C. lobbying and communications firms into pitching PR plans that he described as an effort to bolster the image of a dictatorial government."
Apples meet oranges. Oranges meet apples.
See, the difference is Gleick was not using a ficticious name, he appropriated the identity of a real person.
I know in the academic world Departments of Journalism are not held up as bastions of intellectual acumen, but this is awful even by those lowered standards.
#62 Posted by Rich H, CJR on Fri 2 Mar 2012 at 11:38 PM
Given that there is major scientific disagreement over the possibility of catastrophic AGW its shocking that CJR could make as elementary an error as to state "...that would teach students—incorrectly—that “there is a major controversy over whether or not humans are changing the weather.”
#63 Posted by Mike E, CJR on Sat 3 Mar 2012 at 12:44 AM
Your article takes a news journo view of the world.
I tackled the same question you pose and answered it from a broader societal perspective, while using less words, and with (I believe) a more accurate result:
http://joannenova.com.au/2012/02/fakegate-the-sound-of-a-meme-collapsing/#comment-986241
Proper science must justify CAGW before the politics can afford a martyr.
#64 Posted by Andrew McRae, CJR on Sat 3 Mar 2012 at 01:28 AM
Wire fraud or not....
Would YOU take a chance on having such a loose cannon in your stable?
Freedom 55 for Peter if you asked me. ( And he deserves it ).
#65 Posted by Lee L., CJR on Sat 3 Mar 2012 at 01:28 AM
Mushy-headed article trying to appear “thoughtful,” while defending the indefensible with lots of background, precedents & assorted case histories, thereby establishing the author’s erudition & insight, a truly crafty rhetorical ploy. Tellingly, Brainard gives wide berth to the fact that several high-profile journals rushed to judgment without so much as a token attempt to verify the documents. And the 4th Estate wonders why it’s shrinking.
Some of the comments are much sharper:
#43 Posted by Ronald Abate on Fri 2 Mar 2012 at 04:47 PM:
"The fact that he got the easy part so wrong, I figured that rest was not worth reading."
Exactly.
.
#44 Posted by Mike H on Fri 2 Mar 2012 at 05:01 PM:
“. . . the cardinal rule that being a good liberal means never having to say you are sorry.”
Excellent; I would add only that you came close, but didn’t quite take the last step: Rationalizing - It’s what Liberals do absolutely, totally, 100% best. God do they rationalize. And spin. And churn. The mouse that fell in the cream and churned it into butter was a piker by comparison. You will never get a Liberal to apologize for any substantial misdeed (or, for that matter, most non-substantial ones); it is simply not in their nature. A Liberal female acquaintance once rationalised cheating on her husband (and getting pregnant and then divorcing him and dragging him through the courts for two years) by claiming he’d promised her a family and was dragging his feet, and that was just as unfaithful as cheating.
.
To those of you trying to debate with the appropriately-named Thimbles, recall Confucius' admonition: Argue with a fool and there are two fools arguing. And to Thimbles I would say, you should have remembered the other admonition, that it’s better to keep your mouth closed and appear a fool than to open it and remove all doubt, when you said that Glieck is a whistle-blower.
But, there is an interesting parallel between the Climate Cabal’s increasingly strident denunciations of anyone who won’t toe the party line, as the Great Global Warming Scare winds down, and Thimbles’ increasingly shrilly ad-homs in this thread, as he keeps getting his ass handed to him.
#66 Posted by PaddikJ, CJR on Sat 3 Mar 2012 at 02:43 AM
Essentially this is the same hypocritical claptrap defense. It amounts to "We know best. Our caise is righteous. So the normal rules of ethics, indeed of law, don't apply to us because our cause is righteous. This is exactly the argument advanced by every tyrant and totalitarian regime throughout history. Shame on you.
#67 Posted by 30characters, CJR on Sat 3 Mar 2012 at 07:03 AM
These Warmingists have no use for facts.
Like maybe the FACT that since 1998 the Earth has experience a global cooling trend.
Or that in the 50 years from 1944 to 1993, the Earth also experienced a global cooling trend.
Or the 76 year global cooling trend from 1900 to 1976.
Now WHICH AGW model can produce Mike Mann's "nature trick"/"hockey schtick" and also about for a recent 76 year cooling trend?
HUH?
Answer: None
The liberals tried to milk a sharp warming trend that ended in the 90's to further their anti-business, pro-Gubmint agendas, and once they invested billions of our dollars and loads of effort the AGW Fairy Tale, they were shocked to see the Earth stop cooperating with them.
Indeed, Phil Jones expressed his frustration with the uncooperative Earth by privately (so he thought) admitting that he wished for rapid global warming in order to enjoy the "dispassionate" emotional satisfaction of seeing the "smug grins" of his critics worn away. And this from a professional Chicken Little - a man who makes gobs of (our) money by publicly warning of the the imminent devastation awaiting us in rising global temperatures.
If there ever existed an example of man who clearly doesn't buy into his own bullshit, then this has to take the cake.
So, instead of coming clean, dealing with the data and reconsidering the matter (as "dispassionate" scientists are charged with doing) the esteemed members of this grant-sucking, politically and financially motivated cabal instead circled their wagons and began a coverup and scorched earth campaign.
#68 Posted by padikiller, CJR on Sat 3 Mar 2012 at 08:07 AM
Thimbles,
The purpose of the Gleick effort it to disrupt, discredit, and destroy a countervailing interlocutor. To say that it was not about stopping an opponents ability to speak is entirely wrong, even tendentiously wrong. The effort continues by allies of Gleick who are using his information to harass and intimidate the donors, board, and grantees. They are doing this publicly. They have acted aggressively to demand donors stop supporting the institution and that employers fire or investigate grantees. This is all about stopping free speech.
#69 Posted by Badger, CJR on Sat 3 Mar 2012 at 08:08 AM
Gleick is no Ellsberg, leaking documents from his employer. He is a thief who broke into Heartland Institute because he did not have the courage to debate at their invitation. It is interesting how the AGW movement causes people to toss away their moral compasses, rearrange reality, and forget about the 1st Amendment. HI was using its freedom to put forth an opinion many disagree with. That is not deception, that is not lying, but it is protected free speech. Gleick, and those saying he was justified in stealing from HI and forging papers to damage them are firmly placed not only in support of crime but suppression of free speech for partisan purposes.
Is this really the position of a great journal like CJR?
#70 Posted by hunter, CJR on Sat 3 Mar 2012 at 08:30 AM
1. Your opening paragraphs assume that there is no controvery in regard to climate change. For anyone who has taken any time at all to familiarize themselves with the topic, that is simply nonsense.
2. Your article closes with the assumption that the curriculum being developed by Heartland is misleading. It not having been published, nor critiqued, nor even completed yet (as is my understanding) one can hardly pass judgment on it.
An informative article marred by some rather poor journalistic assumptions that expose the bias of the author.
#71 Posted by davidmhhoffer, CJR on Sat 3 Mar 2012 at 09:36 AM
It is gratifying to read a well-researched and well-reasoned article on this controversy. I wish that the conservatives making comments could comment on the merits of the piece instead of posting insults about the credentials and personalities of those who find Dr. Gleick's actions courageous if ill-advised. A recent article in The New Yorker on the Wisconsin re-call effort will remind a thinking person that the forces behind apparently innocuous "education" and public relations efforts for conservative causes are generally well-funded, covert, cynical attack machines designed to increase the power of the richest 1% of Americans to the detriment of everyone else.
#72 Posted by Mark Alan Hewitt FAIA, CJR on Sat 3 Mar 2012 at 09:56 AM
And THERE we have it...
The Global Warming/Occupier connection....
It isn't a climate thing.. It's some sort of warped social justice notion. We're not saving the polar bears... We're fighting for the 99%.
It takes some serious Orwellian effort to promulgate this stupidity.
"Fake, but accurate"... "Courageous, if ill-advised"
It was somehow "courageous" of Gleick to back out of a paid invitation to openly present his opinion at a Heartland-sponsored conference, and to instead impersonate the identity of a board member to obtain documents by false pretenses that he then leaked anonymously. Yeah, brother.. It took some balls to do that, didn't it?
Think of the personal danger in his mission! I mean, he could have chipped a nail while he created his spoofed emails. Think of the paper cuts he narrowly avoided in creating the fake documents!
Oh, and then, when he was busted, he issued a half-baked apology, refused to explain his conduct in any detail, and went into hiding... Now THERE is some "courage" for you!... Sir Robin has nothing on this guy!
#73 Posted by padikiller, CJR on Sat 3 Mar 2012 at 10:18 AM
To Mark Alan Hewitt FAIA
I find your comment very amusing since your doing the very thing that you claim the dirty centrists(aka conservatives). Your comment does nothing to disprove the merits and any argument presented against this piece or really anything... its nothing but a cowardly attempt at trolling and claim moral and ethically superiority.
I'd love to talk about the "merits" of the piece expect I can't seem to find any.
As for this statement...
"a well-researched and well-reasoned article on this controversy."
Thats right up there with claiming blacks aren't human. Since more then likely you didn't even bother to read the piece but reflexively need to defend your propaganda allow me to cut and paste a simple statement
"which revealed, among other things, a plan to create a “global warming curriculum for K-12 schools” that would teach students—incorrectly—that “there is a major controversy over whether or not humans are changing the weather.”"
That statement alone clearly debunks your flawed thought process.
Its hard to have a rational debate with religious fanatical doomsday cultists that have the faithfulness of the global warming crowd.
#74 Posted by robotech master, CJR on Sat 3 Mar 2012 at 11:00 AM
PS another amusing thing about this claim...
"a well-researched and well-reasoned article" comes into the second part "on this controversy."
The whole reason their is a controversy is because of the COMPLETE LACK OF research and reasoning when dealing with this issue. Instead as per standard the left jumped right on the blacks aren't human band wagon and made themselves look like the total retards that they are.
Made worse by the far they then went full retard and tried to create fake "evidence" to support the event.
Had any of these fools bothered to take 5 seconds to do any time of research or reasoning they would not have been made to look like the full on retards that they are.
The left has a long history of jumping head first with anything that "proves they're "science"". Be it when they were screwing "blacks aren't human" or "jews to the ovens" any study that supports they're views is put forth without the slightest bit of checking... and when its shows to be wrong its just brushed off.
Once again to make it simple for you... 5 seconds of fact checking would have shown the fake memo was fake instead they just printed it, attacked, now are in coverup mode and will go into "lets "move on" because this doesn't benefit the "science"" mode soon, because having the fact that doomsday cultists are lying doomsday cultists "doesn't help the "cause".
#75 Posted by robotech master, CJR on Sat 3 Mar 2012 at 11:11 AM
I would have hoped even a commentary on a journalistic site would get basic facts straight. .e.g he claims there were " revelations about the misleading global warming curriculum for K-12 schools"
There is no such "revelation". The *fake* memo claims they wished to dissuade them from teaching science. In reality, whether you agree or not, Heartland views itself as *pro-science* since science involves skepticism. That was one of the obvious signs the memo was written by an AGW activists and was a fake. There is nothing secret about its desire for science education, so even if you consider their education to be "misleading' there was no new "revelation" regarding it.
Any skeptic reading that memo would have concluded it was a fake written by an AGW activist and I'm fairly sure they did so before Heartland pointed it out, in contrast to the article's claim that: "A couple of journalists did, in fact, note that the alleged “climate strategy memo” looked different from the other files, but they did so only after Heartland said it was a fake."
Regardless of whether he acted according to journalistic ethics, this should call into question all of Gleick's claimed scientific work as potential falsified "for a good cause". Any scientist who defends his actions should similarly have their scientific work immediately assumed to potentially be faked "for a good cause".
If he didn't fake the memo then he lacks the basic critical thinking skills needed to do professional scientific work. Anyone familiar with the debate would recognize that Heartland wouldn't claim to be dissuading the teaching of science and wouldn't use "anti-climate" to refer to those on their side.
#76 Posted by Skeptic, CJR on Sat 3 Mar 2012 at 12:16 PM
One thing the article misses is that even if Gleick didn't fake the one memo, he lied by implication when he "broke" the story. In his confession Gleick claimed he got the fake memo from an anonymous source and the others directly from Heartland. When he "broke" the story he implied he got *everything* directly from Heartland and did *not* mention any anonymous unconfirmed source.
A journalist would presumably be considered unethical if he referred to "memos from the Obama administration" without acknowledging that they received some memos directly from the administration but one was from an anonymous unconfirmed source. They'd have been remiss if they didn't get any credible source to look at the anonymous memo to see if it seemed real, and any credible source familiar with Heartland would have told Gleick the memo looked fake.
#77 Posted by Skeptic, CJR on Sat 3 Mar 2012 at 12:29 PM
This blog entry points out that journalists uncritically reported information without the slightest attempt at verification despite coming from an unknown source that merely claimed to be an "insider":
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2012/03/02/things-about-peter-gleick-that-might-also-interest-or-intrigue-you/
"Gleick lied when he titled his “leak” email “Heartland Insider” and sent it from the address heartlandinsider@gmail.com.
Based solely on this, these “journalists and experts” called the matter a “leak” and referred to the, then unknown, source as a “whistleblower” or “insider” (in contrast to their treatment of the Climategate emails which the same journalists, again with no evidence, invariably refer to as “stolen” or “hacked”).
This “insider” claim was repeated uncritically in media such as the U.K.’s Guardian."
#78 Posted by Skeptic, CJR on Sat 3 Mar 2012 at 12:32 PM
Are you guys still coming out of the clown car?
"Eugenics was proven wrong in the 1920-2010s yet people like Curtis Brainard continue to push it in our schools as some kind of valid science. Greenpeace, WWF and countless others produce pro-eugenics propaganda which schools teach, yet you're angry that someone dared produce anti-eugenics science such as heartland to teach in schools what thats say about you personally..."
""a well-researched and well-reasoned article on this controversy."
Thats right up there with claiming blacks aren't human. "
" Instead as per standard the left jumped right on the blacks aren't human band wagon and made themselves look like the total retards that they are."
"The left has a long history of jumping head first with anything that "proves they're "science"". Be it when they were screwing "blacks aren't human" or "jews to the ovens" any study that supports they're views is put forth without the slightest bit of checking.."
Robotechmaster? Put away your laptop, get out of your veritech bed, and take your meds.
Nutjob.
To the rest, perhaps I would have a bit more sympathy for Heartland's and your position if Heartland didn't misrepresent the science and have paid tobacco scientists (Hi Fred Singer!) doing the dirty work.
Perhaps I would have a bit more sympathy if Heartland and the other climate liar outfits hadn't jumped over the more private emails and you guys hadn't used conservative political structures and media to harrass, silence, and threaten to prosecute scientists for doing their jobs.
Perhaps, I would have a bit more sympathy had you guys shown the tiniest of concern for the illegal nature of the procurement of the climategate emails.
As it stands, as I have said, what Glieck did in impersonating a board member was fraud. Does he merit prosecution for this? That's up to a Department of Justice, who have been really really easy going when it comes to the much grosser frauds of the banks.
Can Heartland sue him for damages? Sure, they have the right to lawyers and can do what they like.
Should journalists be condemning him and avoiding the documents he brought out as somewhat tainted because they were obtained in a non-traditional manner?
As Craig Brainard said of the Climategate emails:
"“Go with your gut,” says Klaris. “[A]s soon as it feels funny, stop and get another opinion… Don’t encourage or participate in any illegal newsgathering activity.”
If you are going to be the first to publish and have a connection with the original, illegal acquisition of the information, or if you are being sent information that has clearly been stolen-no matter how newsworthy it is-think twice before publishing, suggests Klaris. Most likely, a journalist would be in the clear so long as they were not involved in the illegality in any way. But, it’s worth thinking it over and, perhaps, seeking out qualified legal advice.
Nevertheless, there are countervailing factors that journalists should take into account. Just recently, the deans of five of America’s most prominent journalism schools published a letter in The Washington Post titled, “When in Doubt, Publish.” The deans argue that “[i]t is the business—and the responsibility—of the press to reveal secrets.”
In practice, “ignorance often protects news organizations in these cases,” Klaris says, and the Internet provides the perfect environment for acquiring anonymously posted, illicit information under that rubric."
And if you don't like it, that's a shame. You totally have my sympathy.
*plays tiny violin*
#79 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Sat 3 Mar 2012 at 01:10 PM
Thimbles you live in a fantasy world.
"Perhaps I would have a bit more sympathy if Heartland and the other climate liar outfits hadn't jumped over the more private emails and you guys hadn't used conservative political structures and media to harrass, silence, and threaten to prosecute scientists for doing their jobs."
First they were not private e-mail they were public e-mails ALL of which were subject to FOIA.
Your hypocrisy is impressive in that not only has it been all but proven at this point that it was a whistler blower. It has been proven legally that in fact the blocking of the release of many e-mails under FOIA by the CRU was ILLEGAL. The one and ONLY one reason why people in CRU aren't in jail is because it was past the statute of limitations.
You talk your game about glieck who illegally through fraud got memos and other things and how brave he was... but yet when a real whistler blower steps up you quickly attack. The reason why the person who released the climategate emails haven't stepped forward is because unlike glieck that persons life is truly in danger for the actions they took.
Added irony to your whole argument is the fact that ALL cultist news outlets did everything from trying to claim the emails were fake, to burying the story(or then claiming some CIA/KGB tag team death squad stole the emails), and have continued to bury the story. How long did it take the guardian to publish the heartland memos vs publishing even a story saying that CRUs emailed had been leak?
They REFUSED to publish even AFTER it was confirmed they were real. Your whole argument is completely backasward. In climategate you had someone who took real risks to not just they're job but life as well to release damning documents about ILLEGAL actions that were PROVEN to be ILLEGAL by a COURT OF LAW at a later date.
However you think that somehow they are an evil CIA/KGB death squad out to destroy the planet... but glieck steals some docs that say NOTHING... freaking nothing expect donors to put on the harassment list and you having a wild circle jerk about it.
To many more victorys like gliecks and you won't have an army left to go on your grand crusader of genocide and slaughter.
#80 Posted by robotech master, CJR on Sat 3 Mar 2012 at 01:37 PM
Thimbles thimbles thimbles... could you make it any easier...
"These people filing the FOI's were not people interested in legitimate research, these were people harrassing scientists with frivilious claims about their work and filibustering research through FOI requests. More in a second
#23 Posted by Thimbles on Fri 18 Dec 2009 at 10:45 AM"
I also like the retarded author of that write and as retarded as thing one running propaganda ops...
"Also, please show me where CRU has admitted to refusing to comply with FOIA requests. From what I have seen, they have said that they are in the process and require the contribution of other agencies."
"#25 Posted by Diana Dellamere on Fri 18 Dec 2009 at 10:59 AM"
OOPSS guess some retard should have taken the time to do some more research and "well reasoning" before posting that law review.
Why is it everytime morons write stuff half-cocked they always end up looking like idiots. Anyone who had taken even the slightest bit of research interest in climategate would have known right away the emails were unlikely to have been hacked(which the writer of that piece repeatedly ignorantly claims) and would have known about CRU refusing to comply with FOIA...
But hey this piece like that piece is "well researched and well reasoned" bahahaha
#81 Posted by robotech master, CJR on Sat 3 Mar 2012 at 01:54 PM
You've got to understand what you're dealing with in Thimbles...
This is a guy who thinks government's proper function is to actually oppose (his word) business, and who also plainly believes that "business" and "criminal activity" are synonyms. This is guy who thinks that black journalists should be held to different standards than white journalists.
You won't be able to persuade him. All you can do is refute his silliness and catch him when he plays fast and loose with the facts (like by repeating the leftist crack dream that the Climategate emails were "stolen" or "hacked")
#82 Posted by padikiller, CJR on Sat 3 Mar 2012 at 02:57 PM
"This is a guy who thinks government's proper function is to actually oppose (his word) business, and who also plainly believes that "business" and "criminal activity" are synonyms. This is guy who thinks that black journalists should be held to different standards than white journalists."
And padi believes all women who expect basic reproductive health coverage are sluts. His words - blah blah blah.
You know, I make the attempt to listen to you and to engage your position honesty, it would be nice if you showed the same courtesy.
But I don't expect nice from you right wing clowns.
#83 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Sat 3 Mar 2012 at 03:19 PM
"First they were not private e-mail they were public e-mails ALL of which were subject to FOIA.
Your hypocrisy is impressive in that not only has it been all but proven at this point that it was a whistler blower. It has been proven legally that in fact the blocking of the release of many e-mails under FOIA by the CRU was ILLEGAL. The one and ONLY one reason why people in CRU aren't in jail is because it was past the statute of limitations."
Were they? The private correspondence of American researchers is subject to a UK freedom of information request?
And the scope of FOI somehow justifies the trespass and potential damage of university property through security circumvention and theft?
You sure the law sanctioned every activity that the climate liars used FOI for?
The fact is the climate scientists did not fulfill FOI requests for data because they were annoyed with climate liar tobacco scientists who misunderstand, misrepresent, and amateurishly accuse professional scientists of not doing their homework and being members of a cabal of communists. They're human. They resent being lied about and called names by oil industry drones and the idiot followers of climate liar blogs who would deny the holocaust if it made exxon a buck.
Do you like it much?
So yeah, they didn't work with them. That makes them human, not evil. And the idea that idiots like padi can have access to their private emails is catastrophic.
As the Vice-Chancellor of East Anglia put it:
http://www.uea.ac.uk/mac/comm/media/press/CRUstatements/statements/FOIopinion
"As e-mail becomes a daily substitute for verbal exchange, it is intensifying the dilemma. Where research is concerned, e-mails recreate the best and worst aspects of coffee-room chats: they are a source of countless intellectual breakthroughs but characterised, as psychologists point out, by a style that is often stark, uninhibited and easily misunderstood especially out of context.
The UK could learn from the US. There the FOI distinguishes between recorded factual material necessary to validate research findings, which must be disclosed, and ‘preliminary analyses, drafts of scientific papers, plans for future research, peer reviews [and] communications with colleagues’, which are exempted.
Until the line is soundly drawn and widely understood, there will be unfortunate side-effects. Any refusal or reluctance to disclose is easily read, especially by those in the grip of a conspiracy theory, as sinister. As one commentator on the CRU affair pointed out: ‘Like Desdemona's handkerchief, Climategate offered absolute proof to those maddened by paranoia, but to the rest of us it remained just a handkerchief.’"
If it were your email being plumbed for evidence that you're a psychotic racist who sleeps on a veritech bed and should take his haldol like a good boy, you might not like it. You might consider it harassing.
Hell, you think the revelation of Heartland's boardroom documents is a violation of decency, privacy, and "Heartland's speech freedom".
But you seem to have no such sympathy for the researchers who are trying to understand the mechanisms on which life on earth are dependent while dealing with oil funded "Watt's Up with That" idioinquistiions.
I just don't feel the injustice like you do I guess.
#84 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Sat 3 Mar 2012 at 04:05 PM
In other news:
http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2012/mar/22/why-global-warming-skeptics-are-wrong/
One of the questions this economist asks is 'why are people flipping out over climate science? God!'
And he goes on to explain how it's the economic actors who have much to lose have hired the merchants of doubt and all that... All of which is true.
But it goes deeper than that. You see atmospheric pollution and climate vandalism doesn't affect anyone's property. The atmosphere and the oceans are our commons, protected by nations but not owned by anyone. Therefore when it comes to the harming of this commons, there is no one to represent the commons but the nation - the government. And libertarians, like heartland and he Kochs, do not like the government fulfilling its role in protecting our commons. They would prefer such things were settled by property claims and liability claims between property owners and not the poor riff raff who unfortunately claims stake in their air.
This makes it hard to take steps to prevent climate instability without the government taking a more active role, so they would rather refuse to recognize the problem then to, in any way, empower government to address the problem even in the face of possible extinction. Why?
Because by being committed to their vision of governmentless utopia, libertarians walk in regimental fashion down the path to Somalia..
In the end, you clowns are willing serfs and servants within the new American feudalism. Be proud!
#85 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Sat 3 Mar 2012 at 05:22 PM
Ahhh, you people crack me up. I mean you destroy organizations you don't like, you try (and often succeed) to get people fired for saying things you don't like, you put institutional pressure and use big government to suppress viewpoints you don't like.
And then you come on here and cry about some big bad scientist attacking your freedom of speech. Poor heartland. Poor rightwing victims. Who will stop to wipe your baby tears?
Meanwhile:
http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/blogs/taibblog/andrew-breitbart-death-of-a-douche-20120301
UPDATE: Well done, Breitbart fans, well done! In less than 24 hours you’ve hacked into my Wiki page, published my telephone number on Twitter, called the Rolling Stone offices pretending to be outraged “advertisers” (anonymous ones, who hung up before we could figure out which “ads” to pull), and then spent all night calling and texting my phone with various threats and insults, many of them directed at my family. “Better grow eyes in the back of your head,” was one; “I’m going to take a shit on your mother’s grave,” was another; a third called my wife a “piece of shit like you,” and many others called me a “pile of human excrement.”
Those last ones to me were the most interesting because that quote is lifted directly from Breitbart’s own obit of Ted Kennedy, which like me Breitbart ran just hours after his subject died. So that means the writers of these letters knew that what I did was exactly the same as what Breitbart had done, and yet they still found a way to be unironically outraged on Breitbart’s behalf. I thought: “These people don’t even get their own jokes.”...
But I guess no homage is complete without a celebration of the whole man, and the whole man in this case was not just a guy who once said, “It’s all about a good laugh,” but also someone who liked to publish peoples’ personal information on the internet, hack into private web sites, tell lies in an attempt to get his enemies fired, and incite readers to threats against his targets and their families, including death threats. I left all of that stuff out of my obit, but now, thanks to you readers, that’s all in there as well, leaving, for posterity, a much more complete picture of the man."
If you people weren't such brownshirts, you'd all make a good comedy.
#86 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Sat 3 Mar 2012 at 09:47 PM
Thimbles your a whole lot of fail in a tiny ting package.
"Were they? The private correspondence of American researchers is subject to a UK freedom of information request?"
Anyone who knows anything about the US or UK FOIA/FOI knows that sending e-mail to a server subject to those laws makes that email subject to those laws.
Now I suppose you could be arguing that the emails that were subject to these laws fall under a sub-section about private email talks which would something along the line of say family matters IE.
Person One "Hi hows your mom doing."
Person Two "Shes doing well."
This email would be considered private because it deals with someone and only someone not subject to FOIA/FOI or any work, etc subject to FOIA/FOI.
However no such mails have been found in either of the climategate dumps.
"And the scope of FOI somehow justifies the trespass and potential damage of university property through security circumvention and theft?"
I'm not sure what your argument here is. FOI was setup so that the public can get access to public info. The CRU is public property so the public can't really trespass in the sense you seem to be trying to argue. As for "potential damage" the whole point of FOIA and such is to EXPOSE that potential damage. So by your own argument FOI is working correctly.
"You sure the law sanctioned every activity that the climate liars used FOI for?"
I'm not sure about what your trying to argue here. A UK court of law said that their was a crime committed is blocking the FOI requests. So that in turn means they can't possible be "Vexatious" as you seem to imply. In fact they also document the COMPLETE LACK OF "Vexatious" requests. Once again in a court of law.
"The fact is the climate scientists did not fulfill FOI requests for data because they were annoyed with climate liar tobacco scientists who misunderstand, misrepresent, and amateurishly accuse professional scientists of not doing their homework and being members of a cabal of communists. They're human. They resent being lied about and called names by oil industry drones and the idiot followers of climate liar blogs who would deny the holocaust if it made exxon a buck."
This is a whole lot of CIA/KGB death squad tag team propaganda here. First no pro-tobacco people filed FOIs vs CRU nor anyone who was payed by exxon.
In fact as far as court records show only people in the climate field with degrees first send FOIs to CRU and the number of total FOIs was around 20... most of which came from the SAME PERSON who was ILLEGALLY blocked access to the FOI data once again stated by a COURT OF LAW.
As for the holocaust people like you were the ones putting jews in ovens and since I state that knowledge I don't understand how you can say I don't believe that the holocaust didn't happen when I once again state clearly that people like you are the ones that were throwing jews in ovens during the holocaust.
Do you[...]exempted.
Most of this section is meaningless propaganda that has nothing to due with facts or laws. CRU can claim whatever they want just like harvard can claim blacks aren't human, that doesn't make it correct by any standard be ir moral, ethical, factual or scientific.
#87 Posted by robotech master, CJR on Sun 4 Mar 2012 at 02:34 AM
"If it were your email being plumbed for evidence that you're a psychotic racist who sleeps on a veritech bed and should take his haldol like a good boy, you might not like it. You might consider it harassing. "
This is amusing. First if I'm a government employee then I expect anything I say to be public unless its covered under some sort of security clearance. When Palin was attacked repeated you have no problem with that... in fact when an FOIA filed against palin for over 17,000 emails for purely politics i'm sure you were cheering and couldn't wait... funny in those 17,000 emails the best that they could come up with was the insult she writes are an 8th grade level... which is amusing since obama and the NYT write at a 5th grade level. It was clearly without a doubt a vexxing request let it was filled at huge cost to the taxpayer and solely to harass palin...
"Hell, you think the revelation of Heartland's boardroom documents is a violation of decency, privacy, and "Heartland's speech freedom"."
What "revelation"? The fact they get chump change for cash? I'm not sure what it was that pre-release has been made public other then the donor list which was only kept secret because of the well known pattern of harassment against heartland donors. Which it seems like your arguing that harassment of heartland donors is good but OBEYING the LAW and filling out FOI request is somehow harassment.
"But you seem to have no such sympathy for the researchers who are trying to understand the mechanisms on which life on earth are dependent while dealing with oil funded "Watt's Up with That" idioinquistiions.
I just don't feel the injustice like you do I guess."
Hmmm this is an interesting respond and I must say that you seem to have is backwards yet again. I feel huge sympathy for researchers who are trying to under the earth and how it works... I have no sympathy for criminals and fraud who's only goal is to get grant money to place themselves into positions of power by breaking the law... Nor to those same researchers that claim blacks aren't human, jews belong in ovens, the world is melting because of man made CO2.
"One of the questions this economist asks is 'why are people flipping out over climate science? God!'"
Hmmm maybe its the BILLIONS of dollars in ANNUAL FRAUD that maybe pissing people off. Or maybe that the ONLY fix to "global warming", just like "global cooling", just like eugenics is a massive socialist/totalitarian government that oppresses the people... or maybe its both who knows.
"[All the jews fault] "
Alot of propaganda and buzz words there... got your talking points down huh.
"Because by being committed to their vision of governmentless utopia, libertarians walk in regimental fashion down the path to Somalia.."
Wow classic ignorance here. Somalia is not in anarchy/"libertarianism". Somalia is clearly a leftwing totalitarian/socialist BIG GOVERNMENT utopia.
"In the end, you clowns are willing serfs and servants within the new American feudalism. Be proud!"
Another interesting comment above you confuse anarchy with socialism and here you claim that people fighting against being willing serfs and servants to the government(aka heartland) are somehow supporting the government... you seem to be very very confused.
#88 Posted by robotech master, CJR on Sun 4 Mar 2012 at 02:55 AM
PS another thing I find amusing about your comment
"They resent being lied about and called names by oil industry drones and the idiot followers of climate liar blogs who would deny the holocaust if it made exxon a buck."
Its interesting that you link to pieces from a newspaper(NYT) well known for covering up and promoting mass genocide...
"The mass murder of 7 million Ukrainians, 3 million of them children, and deportation to the gulag of 2 million (where most died) was hidden by Soviet propaganda. Pro-communist westerners, like the New York Times' Walter Duranty, Sidney and Beatrice Webb, and French Prime Minister Edouard Herriot, toured Ukraine, denied reports of genocide, and applauded what they called Soviet "agrarian reform." Those who spoke out against the genocide were branded "fascist agents."
Funny how you also claim that those who oppose fascism, communism and massive genocide... aka "the fix" for global warming are fascist agents... and uses a well known paper to do it.
Just saying maybe if you take some time to self review you'll find that you are the one thats really the facist/communism.
#89 Posted by robotech master, CJR on Sun 4 Mar 2012 at 03:06 AM
@Thimbles:
I never called anyone a slut.
I just asked the question "what could be sluttier (be definition) than going to Congress and demanding that Congress act to subsidize your sex life"?
If we start doling out money to subsidize sexual appetites, where do we draw the line?
Think of all the poor, dorky guys who aren't getting laid! I mean, they have sexual needs, every bit as much as this mooching, begging lady does. Why doesn't Congress dole out free passes to the Chicken Ranch so that these poor guys can whet their sexual appetites? HUH?
What is the moral or logical distinction between these two cases?
This is just lefty bullshit. Just another chance to put the Gubmint into managing personal behavior. The same leftists who are currently rallying behind this promiscuous, unmarried moocher are the same ones who were jumping over themselves to toss Monica Lewinsky and Paul Jones under the bus.
If this woman wants birth control, all she has to do is take an aspirin pill and hold it between her knees. Voila! Problem solved with over-the-counter medicine!
#90 Posted by padikiller, CJR on Sun 4 Mar 2012 at 08:35 AM
"“global warming curriculum for K-12 schools” that would teach students—incorrectly—that “there is a major controversy over whether or not humans are changing the weather.”
That is simply a lie. A bare-faced, unwarranted lie. Whatever you say about those that disagree with your view there is a major controversy, with senior climate scientists on both sides.
#91 Posted by Doubting Rich, CJR on Sun 4 Mar 2012 at 12:03 PM
"That is simply a lie. A bare-faced, unwarranted lie. Whatever you say about those that disagree with your view there is a major controversy, with senior climate scientists on both sides."
Yeah, there's a couple on one side, most of which, like Bjorg Lomborg and Pat Michaels, have given up on the old "The globe isn't warming and, if it is, humans aren't responsible" and moved on to
"The globe is warming humans are responsible, but what's the big deal about a little warming. Shouldn't you focus on real problems like the starving in Africa?"
"What do you propose to do about the starving in Africa?"
"Nothing, but shouldn't you be focusing on it?"
"Sigh."
Some of which are unpublished-in-decades hacks or well compensated idiots from fields unrelated to climate like Watt's the weather man. (Just so you folks can understand, weather is the study of weather data used to make forecasts for tomorrow. Climate is the study of weather systems and the things that affect it, like the ocean, the rainforests, wind current systems, etc... so that they can explain how hurricane systems work and how ocean currents circulation affect temperature)
The guys who understand physics, the guys who understand climate, the guys who understand risk (like insurers and the military), they all are having a debate about what should be done about human induced climate instability and the retreat of polar sea ice.
Look it up.
The "controversy" is yahoo focused and yahoo centered.
#92 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Sun 4 Mar 2012 at 12:50 PM
"I just asked the question "what could be sluttier (be definition) than going to Congress and demanding that Congress act to subsidize your sex life"?
If we start doling out money to subsidize sexual appetites, where do we draw the line?"
I could make the point that insurance is fully willing to subsidize Viagra prescriptions for men.
http://m.sodahead.com/united-states/conservative-men-want-their-viagra-and-penis-pumps-paid-for-but-not-contraception-for-women/question-2494511/?page=1&postId=78984561
But I think it would be more effective to go with 'You're an asshole.'
Whether you're a lying asshole:
http://www.balloon-juice.com/2012/03/03/ed-morrisey-is-a-shameless-liar/
or a dumb asshole is between you and your gods. Yap away climate denial, women's health denial advocate. You're sure impressing your "Watt'sup with that?" people.
"So-mal-i-a, here we come! Goodbye first world where we're from!"
#93 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Sun 4 Mar 2012 at 02:06 PM
Now THIS, ladies and gentlemen, is Thimbles in true form,
When you back him up against the Wall of Truth by asking him a question he can't answer.. He responds with juvenile ad hominem.
And see him moving the goalposts here?
We're talking about a lady who went to Congress begging the Gubmint to force Georgetown University (a Catholic institution) to subsidize her unmarried, recreational sex...
THAT is what we're talking about.
So what does Thimbles do? He dodges and weaves, of course. He changes the subject.
Using Thimbilistic reasoning (an oxymoron, to be sure) the fact that some insurance companies voluntarily pay for Viagara means that the Gubmint should force a Catholic institution to involuntarily subsidize contraception.
See the stupidity pf this idiotic position? Anyone can. Thimbles does, that's for sure. That's why he resorts to snotty name-calling.
#94 Posted by padikiller, CJR on Sun 4 Mar 2012 at 04:28 PM
"We're talking about a lady who went to Congress begging the Gubmint to force Georgetown University (a Catholic institution) to subsidize her unmarried, recreational sex"
http://www.balloon-juice.com/2012/03/04/ed-morrissey-is-still-lying-about-sandra-fluke/
"Yesterday, Ed Morrissey blatantly lied about Sandra Fluke, claiming the following: “However, let’s keep in mind that it was Fluke who made her sexual activity a matter of national political debate…”
This is a lie, and there is no other way to put it. Nowhere in her testimony did she mention her sex life or her sexual activities. She just didn’t. Read the transcript for yourself, and then tell me whether she is gay or straight, celibate, a virgin, in a current relationship, or even the most basic details of her sexual life and activities. You can’t, because she didn’t discuss that at all. Ed Morrissey is simply lying..."
http://abcnews.go.com/images/Politics/statement-Congress-letterhead-2nd%20hearing.pdf
"We expected that our schools would live up to the Jesuit creed of cura personalis, to care for the whole person, by meeting all of our medical needs. We expected that when we told our universities of the problems this policy created for students, they would help us. We expected that when 94% of students opposed the policy, the university would respect our choices regarding insurance students pay for completely unsubsidized by the university. We did not expect that women would be told in the national media that if we wanted comprehensive insurance that met our needs, not just those of men, we should have gone to school elsewhere, even if that meant a less prestigious university. We refuse to pick between a quality education and our health, and we resent that, in the 21st century, anyone thinks it’s acceptable to ask us to make this choice simply because we are women."
Keep talking padi. Show everyone what passes for polite conversation amongst the close minded, climate denying, sexist, touch of racist, contempt for the poor, worship for the rich, Ayn Rand addicted, right wing. My arguments won't persuade half as much as your style.
#95 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Sun 4 Mar 2012 at 08:08 PM
If this woman wants an insurance policy that pays for contraception...
She should BUY a policy that pays for contraception.
PERIOD.
It isn't complicated.
Congress has NO business forcing a Catholic institution to tacitly condone contraception. PERIOD.
This is just political BS - the liberals are trying to change the issue from a religious freedom issue to a woman's rights issue.
The trouble is... Nobody is stopping any woman from having "access" to contraception. ("Access" being the newest liberal euphemism for "somebody else paying for my stuff").
#96 Posted by padikiller, CJR on Sun 4 Mar 2012 at 09:11 PM
"If this woman wants an insurance policy that pays for contraception...
She should BUY a policy that pays for contraception."
If a woman buys a group policy because that is what is proffered by her employer/university/whatever, then whatever benefits she requires are between her and her policy provider.
And whatever moral judgements you may think your entitled to based on her requirements of her insurance provider, you're not. It's none of your business. It's private. Keep the slutty slutty remarks to yourself, assuming you are capable of keeping that inner neanderthal of yours quiet.
This is the problem with conservatives, they are owner fixated. Everything dervives from individual property, particularily individual rights. Therefore if you run a store and you choose to not serve blacks, because you own the property you can refuse service on the basis of skin color. Never mind the black person's right to be treated as an equal and as a citizen, libertarians only care about owners being able to pretty much set their laws on their property.
And if employers and religious institutions have established group health plans where viagra is covered and basic reproductive health products are not, then women don't have the right to request their needs get covered. The employer has veto over benefits provided because they own property and they struck the deal with the insurer. Just because you pay a health provider doesn't mean it has to provide if your employer decides to stick his god inbetween you and your health coverage.
And if pharmacists decide women are icky and slutty for wanting the pill, they can refuse service to women based on their beliefs. They own the store, they can invalidate the equality of those they consider slutty. Their god gets between you and your medicine.
When you derive rights from property, then those who don't have property have no rights. In fact, this is why you'd want to keep these people away front the vote since if they claim the right to change policy through the electoral process, they will use it to steal other's property under the rubric of rights! Better we steal their votes then they steal our property, no?
Libertarians have the relationship between rights and property backwards. We are born individuals with individual rights under the law as part of our human and national identity. We do not believe that property gives one the right to violate another's rights. And in the area of health we cannot use the combination of god and property to allow a provider's ego to harm and endanger client's lives.
If you cannot do the job in good religious conscience, then don't take the oaths of that job that you cannot fulfill. No one forces you to be a pharmacist, but once you've become one, you must provide the services prescribed and/or requested unless there is a bloody good patient centered reason.
And putting up a sign saying "We don't serve sluts" is just not good enough.
(not to mention, regardless of the reason why the woman wants reproductive coverage, it is in the financial interest of the insurer to provide it. Healthy, uninterrupted, not endangered premium payers make insurers more money than pregnant ones. Again, you are allowing a plan profferer to stick his religious prejudice inbetween what's in the best interests of both the insurer and the client. Big feudalism)
#97 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Mon 5 Mar 2012 at 03:04 AM
My real name is Patrick Johnson and I'm an Architect of 30 years' standing. I mention this as preamble to my response to Mark Alan Hewitt FAIA (#72 Posted by on Sat 3 Mar 2012 at 09:56 AM), because not in a million years would it occur to me to sign myself in any non-architectural fora as Patrick Johnson, AIA, CSI, LEED-AP, etc, etc"
Based on this thread and what appears in other mass media, the public might well be justified in concluding that the architectural profession is populated solely by pretentious twits with severe reading comprehension issues. But I humbly beg to assure you that this is not the case, if only because someone has to write the long, detailed, boring, and exacting specifications that accompany every major building project!
So on behalf of my profession, I beg your pardon, and your indulgence.
PS: Speaking of signatures, revealing, isn't it, that Glieck likes to sign himself "Peter Glieck, McArthur Grant Fellow"? A true legend in his own mind. I do believe that it was the good commentariat folk at Forbes, and Judith Currie's "Climate, etc." blog, and their refusal to defer to the McArthur Genius (some even mocked him), that sent him over the edge. The slow burn of humiliation can do that.
#98 Posted by PaddikJ, CJR on Mon 5 Mar 2012 at 03:12 AM
thimbles with the epic fail again...
"(Just so you folks can understand, weather is the study of weather data used to make forecasts for tomorrow. Climate is the study of weather systems and the things that affect it, like the ocean, the rainforests, wind current systems, etc... so that they can explain how hurricane systems work and how ocean currents circulation affect temperature)"
No my very ignorant witch burning friend...
I love it when fools try to impose stupidity into a topic.
First weather and climate studies are for the most part EXACTLY the same.
The main difference between the study of weather vs the study of climate is the amount of time that has elapsed.
The study of weather can be from as short as a few minutes to as long as a few 1,000s years.
On the other hand the study of climate is how long term trends and cycles of weather create future weather events. Climate cycles can be as long as 1,000 years to complete a single cyclic event thus meaning to even begin gathering data it can take 100,000s if not millions of years to build a sample size.
To put it simply climate is the sum of weather....
Sadly being most humans tend to be insanely short term focused climate science is rarely done... most "climate science" done today is basically long term weather forecasting.... of which tends to result in epic failure of being correct. We need only look to "global cooling" to see a recent fail of "climate science".
#99 Posted by robotech master, CJR on Mon 5 Mar 2012 at 07:06 AM
"This is the problem with conservatives, they are owner fixated. Everything dervives from individual property, particularily individual rights."
Yes because when the government owns each person they are well known for taking care of them evenly and fairly... maybe you never heard of hitler, Hirohito, stalin, mao, or any of a host of leaders/countries that believe "the people" are the property of the government....
But then against the definition of socialism is "where the government owns and controls every person". Thimbles clearly displays is love for socialism... and his pro-genocide view points.
#100 Posted by robotech master, CJR on Mon 5 Mar 2012 at 07:30 AM
Hey Rick Hunter.
If you can't tell the differences between socialism, communism, and facism because you've been staring to long into the smiley face with the Hitler moustache, then life is too short, nutjob. Been there, done discussing with that. (Who is John Galt?!?111 Nutjobs want to know!)
Good luck with the invid, dork. Let us know when you grow up.
#101 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Mon 5 Mar 2012 at 10:35 AM
I know very well the differences between socialism, communism, and facism you don't however seem too...
I find it amusing that you haven't been able to counter any of my posts, arguments, logic or facts yet and that at best you are now trying to use someone elses argument(though still a very poorly thought out argument) to replace yours... this is mostly likely due to the fact your ass is feeling a bit chapped because you got nothing to counter facts with, on your own and must deflect away from your failures in logic and reasoning and attempt to cite someones elses logic and reasoning(which also is heavily flawed) in hope that their paperwork will be given more benefit then they're argument based on merits...
Yes I love the thought process... as always
"There is one little problem with this: most weathercasters are not really scientists. When Wilson surveyed a broader pool of weathercasters in an earlier study, barely half of them had a college degree in meteorology or another atmospheric science. Only 17 percent had received a graduate degree, effectively a prerequisite for an academic researcher in any scientific field."
This is the exact argument that eugenic believers made when people said blacks were humans to which they would respond "were experts, we have college degrees you are nothing and know nothing".
As per standard you take another page out of the eugenics book and make the same argument..."The facts don't matter only college degrees and our "science" which can't be wrong because we have college degrees".
Any person can contribute to science they only need to use logic and follow the scientific method... this idea that only people with college degrees have value is much like only people with white skin have value. You can scream and cry all you wish for it to be so but that doesn't make it so.
But hey you keep the eugenic defense up it just reinforces the reality that you are nothing but a parrot... a eugenics supporting parrot...
#102 Posted by robotech master, CJR on Mon 5 Mar 2012 at 11:32 AM
I pretty much stopped reading the article when I reached the line in the fourth paragraph:
"...that would teach students—incorrectly—that “there is a major controversy over whether or not humans are changing the weather.” "
That single interjected word, " incorrectly" told me all I needed to know about the next umpteen paragraphs. At this point I knew the politics of the writer and I knew the tone the article would take. It's religious zealotry at its simplest. Those are either converts or they're heretics, but there's certainly no room for discussion or debate.
Stick your head in the sand if you want, but there is a major controversy over whether humans are affecting the climate. The ad hominem attacks on honest scientists with dissenting views are doing nothing to win people over to the cause. In fact, it's only making scientists like myself (who once believed in AGW) become more skeptical about what's really going on here.
#103 Posted by Richard, CJR on Mon 5 Mar 2012 at 02:00 PM
"I pretty much stopped reading the article when I reached the line in the fourth paragraph:
"...that would teach students—incorrectly—that “there is a major controversy over whether or not humans are changing the weather.” "
Guys, stop it.
John Christy and Bjorg Lomborg agree that man is responsible for climate change:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/panorama/hi/front_page/newsid_8758000/8758352.stm
Pat Michaels admitted that that man is responsible for climate change to the Heartland Institute in my above link.
Other republican scientists are trying desperately to talk to their candidates about man made climate change.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/02/22/idUS334109598520120222
From my dotearth link above, Bryan Lovell:
"The fascinating thing that seems to be emerging is, as we look at … the 1,000-year timescales going back to 183 million years, other past warming events where we get these black mudstones, we find that whatever the starting conditions, amazingly you get the same outcome. Every time you pull this particular carbon trigger at a certain rate and dump it into the atmosphere, that’s what you get...
We took the view that although our Society is a mixture of academics and oilmen, and some of us are a mixture — I’m a mixture of those two things myself, we’re a professional body and a learned body – but we thought it was time to make a public statement about things that we agree as a group of geologists are established beyond a reasonable doubt.
And that’s against the background where nobody in their right mind argues that [we haven't] already dumped several hundred gigatons of carbon into the atmosphere. That’s observational science. .. And we geologists are now saying, right, if you do that, here’s what’s going to happen."
Ted Luntz, on record, manmade climate change is real.
There is no controversy "over whether or not humans are changing the weather.”
The only controversy argued by skeptics by how much are we changing it, how bad will those changes be, and is it worth the expense to stop.
There is NO controversy that we are changing the atmosphere and the ocean by our emissions and therefore affecting the weather. NONE. The people who claim controversy over this basic fact are the same type of people who claim there's a controversy over the basic facts of evolution.
There's a political controversy, not a scientific one.
Now conservatives can either come up with a conservative approach to deal with the scientific issue or they can continue fiddling about a political controversy as the world burns.
I suggest you stop it.
#104 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Mon 5 Mar 2012 at 10:15 PM
In other news:
http://digbysblog.blogspot.com/2012/03/another-day-another-proof-of-desperate.html
#105 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Mon 5 Mar 2012 at 10:19 PM
The problem, Thimbo, is that from 1998 to 2011... The world COOLED.
Global COOLING in the last 13 years.
Even Phil Jones admits that Earth isn't warming.
There's that, after all.
#106 Posted by padikiller, CJR on Mon 5 Mar 2012 at 10:31 PM
Wow. Wrong. ("Thimbo, is that from 1998 to 2011... The world COOLED.")
http://news.sciencemag.org/sciencenow/2010/12/nasa-2010-meteorological-year-wa.html
"The 2010 meteorological year, which ended on 30 November, was the warmest in NASA's 130-year record, data posted by the agency today shows. Over the oceans as well as on land, the average global temperature for the 12-month period that began last December was 14.65˚C. That's 0.65˚C warmer than the average global temperature between 1951 and 1980, a period scientists use as a basis for comparison.
The 2010 meteorological year was slightly warmer than the previous warmest year, the 2005 calendar year, when the average temperature was 14.53˚C.
In 2010, temperatures measured over land alone were also the warmest ever, with instruments showing a December-November average of 14.85˚C. Combining this warming with above-average ocean temperatures led to the global average of 14.65˚C."
And wow. Wrong again. Out of date: ("Even Phil Jones admits that Earth isn't warming.")
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-13719510
"If a trend meets the 95% threshold, it basically means that the odds of it being down to chance are less than one in 20.
Last year's analysis, which went to 2009, did not reach this threshold; but adding data for 2010 takes it over the line.
"The trend over the period 1995-2009 was significant at the 90% level, but wasn't significant at the standard 95% level that people use," Professor Jones told BBC News."
I'd think that would be enough to stop a rational person from repeating false information.
What about you?
#107 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Mon 5 Mar 2012 at 11:18 PM
"Guys, stop it.
John Christy and Bjorg Lomborg agree that blacks aren't humans.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/panorama/hi/front_page/newsid_8758000/8758352.stm
Pat Michaels admitted thatblacks aren't human to the Heartland Institute in my above link.
Other republican scientists are trying desperately to talk to their candidates about man made climate change.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/02/22/idUS334109598520120222
From my dotearth link above, Bryan Lovell:"
Well just because a bunch of people claim blacks aren't human doesn't make it true... just saying...
The problem with your arguments it that just because you flip a coin 3 times and it lands on heads 3 times doesn't mean when you flip a coin 1 million times that it will land on heads 1 million times...
For someone that talks about the difference between weather and climate you seem to post lots of posts about how CO2 will attempt short term weather patterns at best.
That is one of the fatal flaws of global warming cultism the fact you look so short term and you believe mankind is the most powerful immediate force there is... which of course is wholly untrue.
Man has an effect on the weather... but so do ants, elephants, birds and a host of other animals. The question is how much of that effect is meaningful.
Now lets look at the doomsday cultists belief system... You make the claim that the Sun is not an important/major driver of climate and that if the sun were to go out tomorrow humans could simply produce more CO2 and other greenhouse gasses to keep the planet warm... this is purely insane on its face yet you believe it... why?
#108 Posted by robotech master, CJR on Tue 6 Mar 2012 at 04:25 AM
LOL... I talk about a trend ending in 2011, and Thimbles dodges and weaves to talk about 2010! And tries to defend Phil Jones by discussing a trend ending in 2009.
Too, too transparently evasive, Thimbo!
We're talking about 2011. Get it? 2011. Repeat! 2011!
Typical liberal skullduggery...
Time to ring the REALITY BELL again, with some official Gubmint global temperature data, straight off the Gubmint's very own NASA website.
According to NASA, the average global temperature in 2011 was COOLER than the average global temperature in 1998. PERIOD.
That's just how it is, Thimbo. A 13 year cooling trend. The EARTH COOLED from 1998 to 2011. Just as it cooled from 2002 to 2011. And just as it cooled from 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007 and 2009.
Fact-thingies, all. That's what we're dealing with.
Whether you like them or not.
While the warming trend from 1995 to 2009 was indeed statistically significant, the LONGER TERM trend from 1995 to 2011 is NOT statistically significant.
Indeed, by cherry-picking data, one can identify dozens of periods of statistically significant periods of global cooling in the 150 year temperature record.
The simple, undeniable, irrefutable FACT of the matter is that the global warming trend ended in the 90's. The Earth just hasn't warmed since then.
That's just how it is, Dude.
#109 Posted by padikiller, CJR on Tue 6 Mar 2012 at 06:55 AM
"Well just because a bunch of people claim blacks aren't human doesn't make it true... just saying..."
Yeah but who is John Galt?
"LOL... I talk about a trend ending in 2011, and Thimbles dodges and weaves to talk about 2010! And tries to defend Phil Jones by discussing a trend ending in 2009."
You brought up trends. The latest data on trends is that there has been statistically signifigant warming since 1995. The latest data on temperature has 2010 hotter than 1998, the only year that this latest decade has been relatively cooler than. You have ocean temperatures increasing in both the deep and shallow strata. You have ocean acidification, melting permafrost, and the regression of sea ice. You have your own scientists who are not arguing about the science of climate change, but are trying to sell an industry friendly version of climate sensitivity.
And what have you got? An old bbc article with Phil Jones that is no longer true?
I mean wow. We are looking at a potentially civilization destroying problem and you guys are using techniques developed in the Monty Python arguement clinic to prevent anyone from really talking about it.
A couple of decades from now, you guys are going to be ashamed - if you are capable.
#110 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Tue 6 Mar 2012 at 10:23 AM
"you have ocean temperatures increasing in both the deep and shallow strata"
not really ocean temps are pretty much completely unknown more so at deep depths..
"ocean acidification"
Umm no... first you understand that when the planet warming the oceans release CO2 correct? That mean if you believe ocean acidification is happening the earth is cooling.. Also the ocean is clearly base thus it can't be acidifying... it can however move toward being neutral.
"melting permafrost and the regression of sea ice."
While this short term WEATHER EVENT does indicate warming the earth warms and cools all the time and has for all of its history. One of the really neat things about the withdrawing glaciers is all the HUMAN SETTLEMENTS that get exposed.
"You have your own scientists who are not arguing about the science of climate change, but are trying to sell an industry friendly version of climate sensitivity."
If by industry friendly you mean pro-manmade CO2 version then yeah... the group that is pushing man made global warming the most are the oil companies because it hugely benefits them. Exxon and other oil companies give billions to eco-terror groups to make the government enact more regulation that cuts down on any small oil companies from starting up. It also tends to increase they're profit margins greatly.
"We are looking at a potentially civilization destroying problem"
I completely agree which is why I spend a huge amount of time on the internet countering propaganda trolls like you. Anyone who knows anything about history knows that energy is the life blood of the human race and that by preventing humans access to energy(which is the goal of your doomsday cult) would destroy civilization.
"A couple of decades from now, you guys are going to be ashamed - if you are capable."
Yes thats what the eugenics, peak oil, global cooling, global warming, climate change "experts" always say.
The problem with doomsday cults like the you believe in thimbles is they have to reinvent themselves every few decades to keep it up. Its been almost 100 years since eugenics went "main stream" and it has reinvented itself quite a number of times. You see people that me that understand history know that all we have to do is hold the line and we win because your "predictions" never come true...
Peak oil debunked for almost 70+ running, global cooling, warming, etc and a host of other things... all just short term scare mongering in the long time scheme of things.
Thats the other problem with doomsday cults... they have to make doomsday close enough they can steal everything you own and control you but at the same time make it far enough away you can be "saved". To far away and no ones cares.
Global cooling made the mistake of putting doomsday to close so when they failed to get the peasants brain washed fast enough the deadline went by... global warming is desperately trying to strike that balance.
All we have to do is hold the line and doomsday will come and go and nothing will happen...
#111 Posted by robotech master, CJR on Tue 6 Mar 2012 at 11:07 AM
Thimbles blithered: "And what have you got? An old bbc article with Phil Jones that is no longer true?"
padikiller responds: No, actually... What I've got is the latest NASA data, straight from their own website.
REPEAT, THIMBO!
2011 was COLDER than 1998. PERIOD.
It just was, Dude!
Keep repeating this little inconvenient truth until your lips stop moving and then maybe we'll be able to get somewhere with you.
It's called D-A-T-A.
Otherwise known as "fact-thingies"..
You know? Those things you guys need to ignore?
You can blither all you want about acidification or mysterious heat mechanisms that result in cooler temperatures.
But the EARTH IS COOLER THAN IT WAS IN 1998!
Ding! Ding! The Reality Bell strikes again!
#112 Posted by padikiller, CJR on Tue 6 Mar 2012 at 02:41 PM
As I said, what I linked would have been enough to make a rational person stop repeating false information.
And even you admitted the warming trend from 1999 to now, so yeah I'm kinda' done discussing it with the Monty python crew.
Meanwhile on the hopeless libertarian mysogyny front:
http://digbysblog.blogspot.com/2012/03/wage-slaves-and-prostitutes.html
"But it gets to a bigger issue, which is that employer paid health insurance is a form of compensation, not some perk like free coffee in the break room...
It's part of a worker's wages and unless one agrees that an employer's "conscience" allows it to withhold part of its employees' salary if the employees do something with that money it doesn't approve of, this entire argument is more than just an assault on women --- it's an assault on workers in general.
In America, employers don't have the right to tell their employers what they can spend their earnings on. At least not yet."
#113 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Tue 6 Mar 2012 at 07:46 PM
Thimbles when you say rational I assuming your using the definition "heavily indoctrinated sheeple"...
As to the other quote I agree in a health insurance is part of ones pay and that if one doesn't want health insurance one should be able to get payed MORE in cold hard cash and if one wants health insurance one should get payed LESS in cold hard cash. Its NOT a FREE perk its part of your pay. For some jobs you may not even get much pay if you want the health insurance.
#114 Posted by robotech master, CJR on Wed 7 Mar 2012 at 08:56 AM
Mr Brainard:
Your article is a classic example in obfuscation. It confuses moral, ethical and legal considerations.
The moral requirement is for investigation and action pertaining to global climate change but, like Gleick, you are confused about the required investigation and action. There is no empirical evidence of any kind that would justify the conclusion of you, Gleick, the BBC and et al. that there is a discernible human affect upon global climate. Hence, that conclusion is (at best) superstitious belief. And, therefore, there can be no moral imperative to oppose and/or expose those who challenge that belief. Furthermore, those who subscribe to that belief are calling for harmful economic actions because – they assert – those actions are needed to prevent the human effect on global climate from inducing catastrophe. Therefore, and importantly, the pertinent moral imperative is to investigate the validity of that belief.
Ethical conduct in a debate on a scientific issue requires full data disclosure and open debate of all possible interpretations of the data. Advocates of the belief in a discernible affect of human activity on global climate claim to be supporting "science". Gleick seems to be the only advocate of that belief who has been exposed as a thief. But in all other respects his behaviour is seen to be typical of those who support “the cause” of promoting that belief. The ‘Climategate’ emails reveal – in their own words – that promoters of “the cause” use (as their normal practice) lies, smears and defamations of those who question that belief. This is not ethical behaviour by advocates of any "cause". It is certainly not ethical behaviour by scientists.
The law is an ass and is only relevant in that it affects the repercussions that Gleick can obtain for his theft, deceit, forgery, lies and attempted defamation of the Heartland Institute.
Most important, and sadly, it seems that the behaviour of proponents of "the cause" will continue to damage the reputation of all science until the truth or otherwise of their belief is revealed to the general public (some, including me, think the reality of a discernible affect of human activity on global climate is already disproven).
Richard
PS I suggest that you consider moderating the irrelevant and often factually inaccurate ramblings of the troll posting as “Thimbles”. His/her/their posts (and responses to them) are destroying discussion of your article in this thread.
#115 Posted by Richard S Courtney, CJR on Wed 7 Mar 2012 at 10:45 AM
Mr. Courtney, can I ask, honestly, what makes you so convinced that "there is no empirical evidence of any kind...that there is a discernible human effect upon global climate"? I mean I know you currently consult for Heartland and were a spokesperson for the coal industry, but why wouldn't you trust a vast consensus of people who've spent their entire lives studying climatology, especially lacking a scientific background yourself (if this site is to be believed: http://www.desmogblog.com/richard-s-courtney)?
I'm not trolling; I'm genuinely curious why people like yourself so adamantly refuse to trust scientists in this field when they so willingly do in others (medicine, for example).
#116 Posted by Ryan Bartlett, CJR on Wed 7 Mar 2012 at 11:49 AM
To Ryan Bartlett
You ever hear of eugenics? Your argument that because the "consensus" believes something is nothing more then mob rule justifying any action taken.
The first problem is science is not just done by some college grads... anyone can do science all they need to have is a guess and a logical thought process to test said guess.
You believe that because a "consensus" of scientists believe blacks aren't human so their for they aren't human. This is purely an irrational and anti-science view point.
Lets look at some real facts. First from the father of the global warming movement(and strong supporter of the global cooling movement) we have NASA's hansen. You can find here work on global warming here: http://pubs.giss.nasa.gov/docs/1988/1988_Hansen_etal.pdf
note unlikel say thimbles or other cultists I directly link to source info instead of "opinions" of source info.
If you goto page 7 in the PDF you will see a simple graph based on computer models that "proves" global warming.
So lets see how that graph holds up to facts. Here is an updated picture of the graph.
http://www.appinsys.com/GlobalWarming/GW_TemperatureProjections.htm#hansen
You'll note that it fails pretty badly. This is the research which started the global warming religion and it is pretty clear that it is off.
One can then goto the IPCC reports... in case you didn't know they have 4 of those now. So if you bother to go back to the first/second/third reports how they doing? Whats that not so well? Yeah...
You see the old predictions are failing and maybe you haven't heard but "climate" models become more accurate over time(bahahaha).
So the very bedrock foundation of global warming is failing to prove itself. Instead what is happening is every few years a "new" model that explains the past in 20/20 hindsight but quickly after a few years fails to explain the future.
This is simply an easy way to keep covering up for the old models that fail, just keep making new predictions...
In science when you keep failing to get the result you expect/want your supposed to admit at the very least "houston we've got a problem".
Instead of admitting they're are errors and that past predictions have been wrong/horribly wrong we get the appeal to moral authority/"consensus" argument... that same argument used to justify eugenics.
The problem with religion which the doomsday cult of global warming falls into, is that no matter what proof of fail is offered(such as hansen failed model) the fanatics will refuse to believe it.
Let me ask you something about your religion errr I mean "consensus" can you tell me what what disprove global warming? I mean really not just for you personally but as a hypothesis?
Now I know that you won't do any research other then to quote people's opinions on research but if you do bother to do some research... let point you in a direction if you bother to you know do some real research.
Look at hansen and the IPCC models that have constant/reduced CO2 for hansens thats scenario B/C .
Just saying that some of the IPCC models are dead on target... of course those models assume that CO2 is either a very tiny factor or non-factor. But hey they are just models after all why believe them...
But logically speaking if the models that are closest to the real world are the ones that state CO2 is a tiny factor/non-factor shouldn't those models but held up as proof of... well something?
#117 Posted by robotech master, CJR on Wed 7 Mar 2012 at 12:27 PM
Ryan Bartlett:
I shall ignore your disinformation about me and I point out that the smear blog from Fenton Communications which you link is as false as Gleick’s forgery.
I write to answer your question to me which was:
“I ask, honestly, what makes you so convinced that "there is no empirical evidence of any kind...that there is a discernible human effect upon global climate"?”
I answer
BECAUSE THERE IS NONE.
If you have found one jot of empirical evidence then I, the IPCC and many others would like to know of it.
Billions of dollars spent over decades on research to find such evidence have failed.
However, the research has revealed much information which denies the reality of AGW; e.g.
The ‘hot spot’ predicted by the AGW hypothesis is absent.
The “committed warming” which the IPCC asserted in its most recent report has not happened.
Global temperature has not risen as predicted by AGW for the last decade.
Trenberth is still seeking his "missing heat".
etc.
So, I ask you,
How much more empirical evidence that refutes the AGW-hypothesis is needed for you to abandon belief in the scare and stop smearing those who cite the evidence?
Richard
#118 Posted by Richard S Courtney, CJR on Wed 7 Mar 2012 at 12:39 PM
Ryan Bartlett::
As a postscript to my response to you, I point out that your reply my post is an example of a truth I stated in that post; viz.
"The ‘Climategate’ emails reveal – in their own words – that promoters of “the cause” use (as their normal practice) lies, smears and defamations of those who question that belief. "
Richard
#119 Posted by Richard S Courtney, CJR on Wed 7 Mar 2012 at 12:54 PM
Oh goody. Look what we have here.
"Your article is a classic example in obfuscation. It confuses moral, ethical and legal considerations."
Tell us what you really think Doctor Coal Slurry.
"The moral requirement is for investigation and action pertaining to global climate change but, like Gleick, you are confused about the required investigation and action. There is no empirical evidence of any kind that would justify the conclusion of you, Gleick, the BBC and et al. that there is a discernible human affect upon global climate. Hence, everybody but me, Doctor Mountaintop Removal, is a looney. Belief belief belief. Say it with me, BELIEF. Because what multidisciplinary scientists tend to stake their reputations on is unfounded, unresearched, uninvestigated beliefs. You would think that everybody but me, Dr. Mercury In Your Fish, was in on a conspiracy."
Sure thing doc.
"The ‘Climategate’ emails reveal – in their own [private] words – that:"
They are scientists who's work has been attacked by tobacco hacks like your colleague, Fred Singer, in ways unprecedented in the scienctific community and are frustrurated with the amount of hackery being employed against them. They also have a problem with bad scholars getting bad papers published because it hurts the credibility of the organization publishing and it can confuse the public when organizations like heartland promote a badly done contrarian paper over the hundreds of well done papers. People resigned over the integrity lost by that publication. These issues should be no stranger to you considering your work at the struggling CATO and I'd suggest you direct your criticism to the nasty right wing think tanks with even less integrity than Cato who routinely toss out their thinkers for violations of today's right wing dogma (looking at you AEI and Heritage).
And considering how you continue to lie and defame based on old emails which amounted to nothing, and considering the history of your tobacco scientist colleagues, I'd stay away from the ethics lectures, Dr. "H2SO4 keeps falling on my head".
"PS I suggest that you consider moderating the irrelevant and often factually inaccurate ramblings of the troll posting as “Thimbles”. His/her/their posts (and responses to them) are destroying discussion of your article in this thread."
Oh, so now you care about his article.
Ps. What about freedom of speech? Don't you want to protect the rights of liars like you and "me"? Remember, the right to buck the consensus protects the speech of industry funded minority opinions like yours. What am I saying, Of course you don't remember that! Libertarians believe the right to speech is derived from property, therefore the people who disagree with the propertied should be silenced. Or pushed to the side where they can have a nice gated free speech zone from which the paid security forces can rain tear gas and pepper spray on the peasants who dared speak up to their masters.
Pps. Are you even a doctor?
#120 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Wed 7 Mar 2012 at 07:34 PM
I see thimbles is back and doesn't want to play with me hehe... doesn't it suck when you can't spam link a rebuttal to the evil rightwing troll...
"The ‘Climategate’ emails reveal – in their own [private] words – that:""
According to british law(FOI) they were public e-mails... just saying court of law AGAIN disagreeing with you...
#121 Posted by robotech master, CJR on Wed 7 Mar 2012 at 07:43 PM
"I answer BECAUSE THERE IS NONE. And since I am a super deity with a caps lock MY WORDS ARE MY ARGUMENT!"
Seriously, are you A doctor or a joke?
"The ‘hot spot’ predicted by the AGW hypothesis is absent."
oh NOES!!
"The “committed warming” which the IPCC asserted in its most recent report has not happened.
Global temperature has not risen as predicted by AGW for the last decade.
Trenberth is still seeking his "missing heat"."
Get new talking points. Seriously, if you can't bother to keep up with the basics in the latest climate research, why are you talking about it?
#122 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Wed 7 Mar 2012 at 07:51 PM
I really like the spec science link... maybe you should read it it in fact says no hot spot... it just says it in the most complex round about way possible by off linking to claim that their some proof of the hot spot which there isn't.
Too quote a real scientist who have been studying weather/climate for decade(not just sitting in front of a computer studying a model).
"It is statistically impossible for the hot spot to exist."
As to the 2nd link ummm it clearly states that the earth is not warming as the IPCC has predicted... thats why they had to produce that piece of propaganda because you know you have to explain why the models didn't predict it.
So of the 2 links you provide they in fact don't state what you want them to state/completely contradict you....
#123 Posted by robotech master, CJR on Wed 7 Mar 2012 at 08:12 PM
eh let me break down the first link a little more.
If you both to read it(which I know you haven't) basically it claims 2 thing.. that the "hot spot" has been found in models and that even with no hot spot global warming is still real.
First outside of models and massive statistical voodoo no one has found this "hot spot".
As for the 2nd part its a bit meaningless the IPCC models claim their will be a hot spot... which means that in order for the models to be right their must be a hot spot.
What they claim is that global warming could be happening without the hot spot... which is correct and a clever ploy to distract away from the fact the very models they argue "prove" global warming are proven WRONG by the lack of a hot spot... which in turn means global warming is thus proven wrong SINCE the only evidence comes from models.
Its a get propaganda trick because in isolation they are very much correct that lack of a hot spot doesn't disprove global warming.
Of course much like the argument you make the lack of a hot spot without a doubt disprove the IPCC models though...
#124 Posted by robotech master, CJR on Wed 7 Mar 2012 at 08:30 PM
"I see thimbles is back and doesn't want to play with me hehe... doesn't it suck when you can't spam link a rebuttal to the evil rightwing troll?"
See, this is isn't complex Albert. I really have no interest in asking an uninformed nutjob like you about anything but Who is John Galt?
Nutjobs like you always seem to gravitate to these topics and their scientific knowledge is up to the same level as their spelling (payed? Really?).
You want to talk about eugenics and fasio-communism and black people's "questionable humanity". As I said to Albert "I don't speak crazy, bye. "
#125 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Wed 7 Mar 2012 at 09:42 PM
Meanwhile, in honor of Richard Courtney, those with an interest and 80 minutes to spare should watch this.
http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/6488223
Particularly the part 40 minutes in where the coal lobby sent fake letters from the NAACP and others to derail climate legislation.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/05/us/politics/05charity.html
Lecture me and mine more about ethics, jerks. I really think you're in a position to judge.
#126 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Wed 7 Mar 2012 at 09:57 PM
Thimbles:
Lies and smears do not an argument make, especially in a thread about the lies, deceit and attempted defamation by a self-confessed confidence fraudster (i.e. Gleick).
However, your behaviour from behind the cowardly protection of anonymity does serve to demonstrate the nature of anthropogenic global warming (AGW) scare-mongers so I suppose it serves a useful purpose. Indeed, it was only a matter of time before one of you scaremongers went ‘a bridge too far’ and this thread exists because Gleick did.
If you have any empirical evidence which supports the AGW scare then please state it because nobody else has managed to find any.
Richard
#127 Posted by Richard S Courtney, CJR on Wed 7 Mar 2012 at 11:26 PM
"See, this is isn't complex Albert. I really have no interest in asking an uninformed nutjob like you about anything but Who is John Galt?"
This coming from a guy that doesn't even know that the ocean is base...
Also like the 2nd link from the pro-genocide times... you know that wind, solar and numerous other "green" tech group do that all the time right? Not only that they produce fake research to back it up.
When you can't argue the facts you do your best to change the topic and ignore them... standard propaganda 101... but its ok thimbles everyone can see all of your fail.
#128 Posted by robotech master, CJR on Thu 8 Mar 2012 at 06:45 AM
"Lies and smears do not an argument make, "
Says the guy who uses stolen letters to lie and smear climate scientists.
"However, your behaviour from behind the cowardly protection of anonymity"
Oh, what would anonymity be protecting me from, I wonder. I'm anonymous because I choose to be. Big deal. You want to put a name to my writting? Pay me. Otherwise, don't criticize while I spend my free time for free. Your name isn't free, why should mine be?
"nature of anthropogenic global warming (AGW) scare-mongers"
Yeah, the nature of people who care about science and its implications is that we write anonymous blog posts. The nature of climate denialists is that they go on the Glen Beck show and scare that psycho mob into sending death threats to scientists and their families. I'm comfortable with my side, thanks.
"If you have any empirical evidence which supports the AGW scare then please state it because nobody else has managed to find any."
I know, the hottest la Nina year ever and the decade of hot years during a prolonged solar minimum and the march of the line beetles ever northward into Canada and the dwindling low altitude glaciers and the basic physics of CO2 heat absorption is all just mamby pamby numbers, data, and trends to a tabacco scientist. No, 'empirical' proof is the stuff like you cited which is old, untrue, and whispers of nonsense compared to the tally on the other side.
Which is why you want to focus on faux scandal like Climategate and the lame trick Glieck pulled on your crack Heartland data security team.
Doesn't take much to outsmart Heartland, nope. And these are the guys trying to claiming to know more about climate science then the climate scientists. Pardon my skepticism, but what have you 'empirically' done lately?
#129 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Thu 8 Mar 2012 at 10:30 AM
"Says the guy who uses stolen letters to lie and smear climate scientists."
Please stop attacking the brave, noble, selfless, whistler blower who bravely, courageously, selflessly sacrificed themselves to leak the email that shows that global warming is nothing but a scam that has the help of big oil and big banks like goldmansacs and others...
Laws were passed to protect such people from your vile attacks as well as the vile attacks of big oil, big banks and others which you support and are supported by.
#130 Posted by robotech master, CJR on Thu 8 Mar 2012 at 11:20 AM
Hey thimbles I give this to you so maybe you can learn something from this thread... though you seem to have snorted hard on the religion to counters the facts being presented in this thread...
Anyway a good watch for anyone interested in real science...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=EYPapE-3FRw#!
#131 Posted by robotech master, CJR on Thu 8 Mar 2012 at 02:04 PM
robotech master:
Thankyou for your clarification concerning the CRU whistleblower.
The law of England&Wales says those documents should have been in the public domain because they are public property and were illegally not released in response to FOI requests. It was only the illegal refusal to obey FOI law by the authors of the documents which required action of the whistleblower for the public to see their own property.
The Public Prosecutor publicly stated that he wanted to prosecute ‘The Team’ for their illegal failure to disclose the documents. He said the only reason he did not prosecute them was that passage of time since their crime prevented the prosecution.
I know that AGW scaremongers live on a planet other than the real planet Earth, but the Thimble troll must exist in a parallel universe if he/she/they thinks it is a “smear” of the authors of those documents to quote their words in those documents or to point out that their attempts to subvert the FOI law was – and is – criminal activity.
Anyway, I intend to ignore posts from the Thimble troll. Everybody can see that responses to him/her/them only encourages his/her/their repugnant ego-masturbation on this thread.
Richard
#132 Posted by Richard S Courtney, CJR on Thu 8 Mar 2012 at 03:50 PM
robotech master:
I need to make a correction to my post to you.
The holders of those documents illegally withheld them from the public. But I said the “authors” of the leaked emails committed the crime.
In most cases the holders and the authors of the Climategate emails were the same people. But they were not all the same people; for example, I am the author of one of the Climategate emails so I suppose the Thimble troll thinks I am “smearing” myself if I quote it.
I apologise for my error which required this correction.
Richard
#133 Posted by Richard S Courtney, CJR on Thu 8 Mar 2012 at 04:09 PM
To Richard S Courtney
Its very important to stress the UK courts have already ruled on the matter and its clearly in the "evil deniers" favor.
However another thing that gets overlooked is the FOI law as it applies to ALL the climate-gate emails.
One the the talking points thimbles is trying to argue/will try to argue is that the court only ruled that "some" of the climate-gate emails were covered. However if one bothers to read the 2,000 something climategate mails ALL of them would fall under FOI as per the law is written. This is important point because some try to argue that not all the emails would be covered under FOI.
Its also important to stress that no court or even law enforcement group has stated that the emails were not subject to FOI laws which is because of course they were.
"Anyway, I intend to ignore posts from the Thimble troll. Everybody can see that responses to him/her/them only encourages his/her/their repugnant ego-masturbation on this thread."
You shouldn't do that... I spend alot of time "debating" people on the internet and in real life. People who are willing to talk are the easiest to get to do research into something. You see even if they want to attack you and are normally only parroting propaganda sites such as DeSmog, they are still putting the effort to fight you... in turn they are doing something along the lines of research even if at the start only into propaganda sites.
The doomsday cult of global warming like all cults doesn't want it members more so at the peon level to do any type of thinking or research or worst of all ask any hard questions. This is because they use the ignorance of they're members to they're advantage.
When someone takes action such as insulting the cult which is normally my opening move this provokes a reaction. By compounding this action and dragging them into a fight it forces them to think, research but most of all to explain they're beliefs... which in the case of doomsday cults like global warming is mostly propaganda. Once they run out of the standard propaganda they have to find more and "better" propaganda. At that point they start to see how things don't really add up correctly... how things don't really make sense and how often one talking point conflicts with another... how predictions have been wrong.
For people like thimbles it is near impossible no matter the proof that they will change they're mind by an outside force. First you must get them to question they're own belief system and let them choose what makes sense. Zealots never question they only parrot. Engaging them in debate, forcing them to find information on there own means the information they find will not always be directly from the cult and even than cult information contradicts itself.
The only thing we can do to save someone from the doomsday cult is to keep them talking and keep forcing them to answer questions. As long as they are talking and responding no matter how retarded those responses are it may(someday far off in the future hehe) result in them seeing past the propaganda. Just something to keep in mind... collectivism of all forms be it a doomsday cult is the attachment to that collective. It is very hard for a weak minded individual to reject the collective. Only by forcing them to confront the flawed collective and only through they're own choice can they truly be free from it. In the end its his choice...
#134 Posted by robotech master, CJR on Thu 8 Mar 2012 at 06:02 PM
robotech master:
Please accept my sincere thanks for your considered response to me. I appreciate it.
I will consider your advice but do not know if those considerations will result in my accepting that advice. At this moment I am averse to encouraging gratuitous lies, smears and defamations of me from a cultist (i.e. your definition) who hides behind a pseudonym to avoid the possibility of accountability for his/her/their actions. But I repeat that I will give your advice serious consideration.
I welcome serious discussion with those who disagree with me (e.g. see
http://climaterealists.com/index.php?id=2938 )
but that is not the same as trading gratuitous insults with anonymous louts who hide in anonymity because they lack the b**ls to be accountable for their actions. Unfortunately that seems to be the only desire of the ‘cultists’ and I have much better things to do with my time.
Again , thankyou.
Richard
#135 Posted by Richard S Courtney, CJR on Thu 8 Mar 2012 at 06:58 PM
Aw man. This page isn't getting bumped by recent comments anymore. Nobody is going to see psychobabble Albert's and Dr. Dick Courtney's little lovefest. (I guess he's Rich's 'psychophant'. Be careful Rich, the exxon sponsored eco-terrorists are after you. They must have got your number from the exxon sponsored Heartland foundation. Robotech will protect you!)
"t that is not the same as trading gratuitous insults with anonymous louts who hide in anonymity because they lack the b**ls to be accountable for their actions"
:'(
What a bunch of butthurt babies.
No matter. Life moves on.
And no, I'm not going to post on your blog, Dr. Dick, where you guys get to delete posts you don't like and build straw men you that you do.
I debate on fair and neutral ground.
PS. I noticed that, in between kisses, there was no 'empirical' rebuttals. What's up doc?
PS. Robo? You know what's interesting? I got that video from here. According to them, you guys have perverted the term skeptic:
http://www.skeptical-science.com/science/skeptic-denier-wrong-wrong/
And yeah, it doesn't matter if the climategate emails were covered by the FOI due to a law way too open for abuse, the climategate emails were not released in response to an FOI request. They were stolen. Someone broke into an East Anglia backup server and took their info.
Have a nice day.
#136 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Fri 9 Mar 2012 at 12:57 AM
I do not have a blog.
I have never had a blog.
I do not intend to have a blog.
So I did not suggest anybody should post on it and I cannot "delete posts you don't like and build straw men you that you do" from it. Those behaviours are typical of the anti-science blogs; i.e. RealClimate, SkerpticalScience, DeSmogBlog, etc.
AGW promoters often pretend that others do as they do. Indeed, this thread exists because Gleick resorted to theft as a result of AGW promoters pretence that Climategate was a theft and, Gleick says, he came to believe that lie and was trying to respond in kind.
Richard
#137 Posted by Richard S Courtney, CJR on Fri 9 Mar 2012 at 02:45 AM
lol thimbles I'm still waiting for you to counter any argument I've made in the last o 6 posts... you seem to be ignoring them and trying to change the topic.
As for the FOI it has never been abused as far as I know in either the US or UK. It has however shown sunlight on hundreds of cases of the government or government backed groups lying, cheating and committing all forms of crimes.
I know your one of those people who believe anyone who opposes the government an thus believe they're evil and belong in a reeducation camp or a dirt ditch if that doesn't "help" them. But really "abused" by FOI as far as I know only 22 FOI requests have been sent to the CRU and of those 22 request 5 came from the person who was ILLEGALLY have his FOI requests blocked and those 5 were on the same exact topic. 3 of the requests came came from people who also wanted the same exact info after they find it odds that the first person was being ILLEGALLY blocked. More requests came after everyone pretty much accepted that CRU was breaking the law and they tried to find proof of it.
In every way the FOI was used correctly.
As to the "someone broke in and stole them" their is not one bit of proof to this effect. Not a single court or law enforcement group has said that it is the most likely event that happened. In fact based on the evidence at this point it is much more likely that it was a whistler blower. The reason we know this is because all the emails released so far have fallen under the FOI law. While its true that they were leaked if you yourself submit an FOI request about these emails, LEGALLY they would be required to turn them over.
Of course you'll probably have to sue to get them because your FOI request will be ILLEGALLY blocked by the CRU but hey thats a different topic.
#138 Posted by robotech master, CJR on Fri 9 Mar 2012 at 08:17 AM
http://www.giss.nasa.gov/research/briefs/hansen_07/
Hansen the gift that keeps on giving...
"Empirical evidence does not lend much support to the notion that climate is headed precipitately toward more extreme heat and drought."
Oops even hansen admits no empirical evidence for doomsday... AGAIN. Back to the data manipulation machines we must change the past...
"He who controls the past controls the future, and he who controls the present controls the past."
#139 Posted by robotech master, CJR on Fri 9 Mar 2012 at 09:37 AM
Perhaps no one will read this because this page has slipped off the radar, but this recent article has some Bethany McClean style reporting on fracking player, Chesapeake Energy. It includes details on the Sierra club donations and the anti coal campaign they've conducted.
http://m.rollingstone.com/entry/view/id/22971/pn/all/p/0/?KSID=043c2abb49aa8d43a7c3bdf1446ac209&ints_viewed=1
Good read.
#140 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Sat 10 Mar 2012 at 06:36 PM
A better piece would be this...
http://climateaudit.org/2012/03/10/gleick-and-the-watergate-burglars/
An exact broke down of why watergate and fakegate are virtually the same. First starting we the thief of donor lists.
#141 Posted by robotech master, CJR on Sun 11 Mar 2012 at 12:53 PM