A couple of America’s leading media outlets finally dug into the recent controversy surrounding the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change last week. The Observatory first criticized U.S. news outlets two weeks ago for not paying more attention to the issue.
Last Tuesday, The New York Times ran a front-page article by Elisabeth Rosenthal under the headline, “U.N. Panel and Its Chief Face a Siege on Their Credibility.” On Wednesday, the Associated Press ran one over the wire headlined, “Scientists seek better way to do climate report.” The difference between the two headlines—the Times focused on the panel’s faults, the AP on its attempts to address them—is important. Each tells half the story, but it is the latter that should lead.
That focus would defy the media’s preference for a conflict narrative and the “front-page thought,” but the story here is not the fact that the IPCC and climate scientists have made mistakes. From the batch of e-mails taken from the University of East Anglia in November to more recent allegations of errors and poor sourcing in the IPCC’s Fourth Assessment Report, these mistakes have done little to undermine the fundamental theory that human industry is contributing to global warming, or prove that the field of climate science is riddled with corruption. The story, properly told, is about whether or not the responsible parties are responding appropriately to flaws in the system (correcting the record where necessary and working to prevent the recurrence of past mistakes).
Bearing this in mind, it is easy to see why—as Climate Progress blogger Joe Romm first pointed out—Rosenthal buried her lede in the ninth paragraph, which reads:
The panel, in reviewing complaints about possible errors in its report, has so far found that one was justified and another was “baseless.” The general consensus among mainstream scientists is that the errors are in any case minor and do not undermine the report’s conclusions.
That is something that needs to be mentioned in the first few paragraphs. From there, a reporter can explain that errors were nonetheless made, which should remind the world of three things: that the exact timing and scale of certain impacts of climate change are subject to a lot of uncertainty; that some scientists will behave defensively, even to the point of negligence, when they feel threatened; and that all quality control-systems sometimes fail. Thereafter, the question becomes: What is being done about these problems?
Unfortunately, that’s not exactly how Rosenthal’s piece played out. After her assertion about “the general consensus about mainstream scientists,” she doesn’t actually quote a single one. Instead, as freelance journalist Keith Kloor wisely observed at his Collide-a-Scape blog, “the piece leaned too heavily” on Roger Pielke, Jr., a professor of environmental studies at the University of Colorado. It was fair enough to quote Pielke, who raised legitimate questions about potential conflicts of interest pertaining to the business interests of IPCC chairman Rajendra Pachauri. But first, readers needed to hear from a few climate scientists who could explain the upshot of other recent controversies surrounding the IPCC and what is being done to improve the integrity of its work.
Published a day later, the AP’s story accomplished that task by focusing on various climate scientists’ responses to alleged mistakes in the IPCC’s Fourth Assessment Report, released in 2007. The article, by Seth Borenstein, began with a catchy lede about the “steady drip of unsettling errors,” but then transitioned admirably into the decidedly unsexy explanation that the Fourth Assessment Report is actually a collection of “four separate reports on different aspects of global warming,” and that:
No errors have surfaced in the first and most well-known of the reports, which said the physics of a warming atmosphere and rising seas is man-made and incontrovertible. So far, four mistakes have been discovered in the second report, which attempts to translate what global warming might mean to daily lives around the world.

While it is true that the technical mistakes in the emails, and the IPCC errors, do not disprove AGW, both reveal a pattern of ideological bias. As a result the IPCC's version of the science has been called into question. Thus the conflict narrative is probably correct as the lead. Whether the IPCC can repair itself is the issue.
#1 Posted by David Wojick, Ph.D., CJR on Mon 15 Feb 2010 at 02:04 PM
The problem here is that MSM will not even consider the growing body of evidence showing deliberate fraud and conspiracy by the people propounding the AGW schtick.
Once again, the "professional journalists" are asleep at the switch, swallowing the story that the IPCC's "error" and "misstatements" do not disturb the foundation of AGW.
In regurgitating this claim, the "watchdogs" must ignore huge breaking stories - like the fact that one of the lead IPCC authors, John Christy, now states that the data doesn't support any recent warming whatsoever, or that the man at the center of the "Climategate" controversy, Phil Jones, has finally admitted that there has been no scientifically significant global warming over the last 15 years. Indeed there have been several peer-reviewed publications that show distortion in the AGW interpretation of the temperature data.
There are huge stories and it is unconscionable for any journalistic "wachdog" to gloss over them.
History will regard the AGW nonsense as the greatest scientific and journalistic scam that ever existed.
#2 Posted by padikiller, CJR on Mon 15 Feb 2010 at 02:24 PM
It's only a fleshwound!
#3 Posted by deek, CJR on Tue 16 Feb 2010 at 11:17 AM
Agree with padikiller. Further examples of curiously incurious journalism are (1) Climategate (not the emails, juicy though they are: but the "Harry_Readme" file of programmer notes showing that the computer model "proving" AGW was, in fact, rubbish and contained "hard-wired" functions that would convert any input into a "hockeystick" output); (2) Briffa's cherrypicking of Yamal tree-ring data; (3) Recent peer-reviewed papers showing that feedback factor from CO2 may be only 1/6 of what the AGW proponents want it to be; (4) Phil Jones' admission, in same BBC interview as noted by padikiller, that yes indeed there was a Medieval Warming Period and he couldn't say whether it wasn't big enough to swamp the putative "hockey stick" effect. We could go on but any of these stories is front-page important, and none of them has gotten any ink. Why? Are journalists so lacking in technical competence or basic curiosity, or professional enterprise, that they can't find the threads and follow them?
"Sound of crickets" seems to be the theme song here.
#4 Posted by oMan, CJR on Tue 16 Feb 2010 at 11:19 AM
The real tragedy here is the loss of credibility the scientific community will incur as this story finally unravels. Having been derided as "deniers" and worse, people with a naturally skeptical bent have more reason to be so ... and not in that good old empirical sense of the word.
But like all swings in the marketplace of ideas, this one will eventually correct. Science will again go back to being scientists instead of advocates and the mainstream media will go back to being .... well, whatever it is they were.
#5 Posted by MaxMBJ, CJR on Tue 16 Feb 2010 at 11:21 AM
...these mistakes have done little to undermine the fundamental theory that human industry is contributing to global warming, or prove that the field of climate science is riddled with corruption.
The story, properly told, is about whether or not the responsible parties are responding appropriately to flaws in the system (correcting the record where necessary and working to prevent the recurrence of past mistakes).
To support these observations, Mr. Brainard quotes one blogger and the IPCC itself! Both of which assert a "general consensus" that everything is fine, nothing to worry about.
To his credit, Mr. Brainard goes on to acknowledge that everything is NOT fine, that a "head in the sand" approach will not help anyone. This is a good approach to science. But Mr. Brainard needs to take it one step further, and acknowledge that whatever consensus there is among climate change scientists, they might not have all the answers.
#6 Posted by kwo, CJR on Tue 16 Feb 2010 at 11:25 AM
The huge story is the flood of carbon-industry money that funds the deniers.
Science is losing this argument, and it is because the scientists and the deniers play by different rules: scientists talk the measured, rational talk of the scientific process (which by definition is qualified and cautious) and deniers talk Beck-speak, in which every error is "unconscionable" and every mistake is a "scam".
All of this is compounded by the journalistic practice of false equivalence. MSM articles are terrible at conveying the scientific consensus, because their rules say that any dissenting voice, no matter how incredible or extreme, must be given equal time.
It's very sad.
#7 Posted by garhighway, CJR on Tue 16 Feb 2010 at 11:33 AM
garhighway, the warmists are funded greater than 50x what the skeptics are.
If you read the released emails, and compare them to what Michael Mcintrye writes, you'll see the scientist are the ones taking the low road.
The 'scientists' are losing this argument because they taint what they touch with their bias.
#8 Posted by Tom, CJR on Tue 16 Feb 2010 at 11:49 AM
The obdurate obtuseness of those who avoid reality and attempt to equate the lie about "the flood of carbon-industry money" funding the real scientists [i.e. those who want claims actually tested using scientific standards and rigor] while ignoring the greater by orders of magnitude money from govts *and* the "carbon-industry" [whatever that might be, but it sure sounds evil, doesn't it?] that support wild-eyed Global Warming/Climate Change based on data that it turns out was cherry-picked and then eaten by the dog is truly astounding.
"It's very sad."
#9 Posted by JorgXMcKie, CJR on Tue 16 Feb 2010 at 11:49 AM
I am increasingly convinced that there is a serious mental breakdown in the MSM, Press and Journalism Entities. These people are just refusing to acknowledge the OBVIOUS. AGW has been a HOAX and fraudulent from the beginning.
What do they believe they are going to accomplish by continuin to ignore FACTS?
#10 Posted by jgreene, CJR on Tue 16 Feb 2010 at 11:55 AM
garhighway, What evidence do you have that the 'carbon' industry funds 'deniers'?
I own stock in several oil companies and other companies in the energy business. Their stockholder reports do not show any money being spent for that. What they do show is them wasting billions of dollars on so called Green Energy projects. I think these projects are politically motivated and waste stockholder money.
#11 Posted by ken in sc, CJR on Tue 16 Feb 2010 at 11:55 AM
Isn't the media the least trusted institution in America? Even less than congress? And is the media culture doing anything to rectify that? Or is the Columbia J-school as incestuous and like-minded as ever? An interesting question to every kid in J-school right now: Do you happen to know the political persuasions of your classmates? And do those political inclinations almost exactly match each others and your own? Do you have a single friend, one that you like, not tolerate, that thinks differently than you do? (Interesting that my captcha words to submit this article were "gingrich" and "banks". Heh.
#12 Posted by JDW, CJR on Tue 16 Feb 2010 at 12:06 PM
Uh, Gar,
Maybe you missed the news that the BBC has a six trillion dollar incentive to keep global warming alive. Their pensions are tied to the climate change industry, which is run by... the head of the BBC.
http://www.australianclimatemadness.com/?p=3094
#13 Posted by jeff, CJR on Tue 16 Feb 2010 at 12:08 PM
>>> the story here is not the fact that the IPCC and climate scientists have made mistakes
Love the spin. Another way of stating it would be "have committed fraud".
Falsifying and destroying data. Breaking the law with FOI refusals. Destroying the peer review process to undermine conflicting science. Rigging to software model. Inserting completely unfounded hysteria into official reports for political reasons.
Just mistakes. Yeah, that's it.
Nobody believes your left wing, anti-capitalist BS. Give it up already.
#14 Posted by John, CJR on Tue 16 Feb 2010 at 12:10 PM
>>From the batch of e-mails taken from the University of East Anglia in November to more recent allegations of errors and poor sourcing in the IPCC’s Fourth Assessment Report, these mistakes have done little to undermine the fundamental theory that human industry is contributing to global warming, or prove that the field of climate science is riddled with corruption.
You gotta be kidding. As previously mentioned in these comments, the e-mails are not nearly as damning as the "Harry_Readme" file, where the poor sap trying to deal with the computer models was going crazy trying to reconcile the data and plainly stated he was just making stuff up to arrive at the wanted result. Add to that the many flaws--some might say, "lies"--that have been unearthed in the IPCC report, and claiming that the "fundamental theory" isn't teetering on total collapse is rank, blind bias.
#15 Posted by TC, CJR on Tue 16 Feb 2010 at 12:12 PM
While the errors might not disprove AGW, they certainly undermine the case for it. To put it another way, it shows that AGW has not been proven. We have had warming, which has subsided for 14 years and may are may not return. The models that try and show that man-made CO2 is the cause of it are undermined. So maybe the globe is warming but for reasons unrelated to CO2. There has been too much of an eagerness to blame carbon for warming. It may be a minuscule factor, perhaps even an insignificant one. But while there is probably a consensus that there has been, or is, global warming, there is not a consensus that it is caused by carbon dioxide. Therefore, cap and trade and other such agreements, regulations, and bills, would or could be imposed based on a false premise. We might want to take steps towards energy independence, and to continue to develop cleaner renewable energy sources, but do it because it is beneficial to ourselves and our environment, not because if we do not do it we will destroy planet earth. The hysteria has to stop. Worthy goals can stand on their own and do not need to be propped up by faulty science. A statue built on clay feet will not stand.
D Davis, Montana
#16 Posted by montanaman0, CJR on Tue 16 Feb 2010 at 12:14 PM
There is another category of research which may fall into this same bucket.
How many times have we been told that "Researchers have found that XXXX causes cancer".
There are frightening similarities between the climate-warming hype and the "X causes cancer" fear-mongering.
Perhaps we could see the emails that circulate at the medical research empires to see how well they are keeping their data (and consciences) 'clean'.
#17 Posted by Big Al, CJR on Tue 16 Feb 2010 at 12:18 PM
As a geophyscist who has been numerically modeling fluid flow and contaminant transport in the atmosphere, surface water, and groundwater for 25 years - I am proud skeptic. Over the last 15 years or so I've watched the rigor of peer-reviewed articles become more and more politically-based and less science-based in several of the AGU's prominant journals. Local climate impacts are obvious but global change due to CO2? - never passed the smell test with me.
Over time the rhetoric from many "climate experts" became so fantastical that I knew the science could not support the claims. It was just a matter of time.
Where are the real journalists asking the real questions? Has idealogy or poor education so blinded investigative reporters that some questions just can't be asked because it would "hurt the cause"?
What are the links between carbon exhange markets, politicians, and scientists? Who benefits? Who loses?
How has the politization of science in gov. and universities skewed real research? Who benefits? Who loses?
Even big questions such as whether climate mitigation strategies (i.e. carbon reduction impacts on the global economy) make any sense at all opposed to adaptation strategies? Who benefits? Who loses?
Heck - the only exhange in money between me and oil companies is when I buy gas.
#18 Posted by JoseBB, CJR on Tue 16 Feb 2010 at 12:27 PM
Let me see if I've got this right....
The Columbia Journalism Review is questioning the professionalism of American journalists in covering the unraveling of the AGW debate. This is a publication put out by the Columbia School of Journalism. Many of these American journalists are graduates of the Columbia School of Journalism. So this can all be boiled down to:
"Columbia J-School We Educate Idiots."
#19 Posted by Ralph Gizzip, CJR on Tue 16 Feb 2010 at 12:28 PM
garhighway,
I don't know what planet you live on or what is your news source but you clearly have never worked in science and you are ignorant of the facts of this case. You main error seems to be a lack of understanding about scientific work..
The "Scientific Community" is not a monolith. There are excellent scientists who truly "...talk the measured, rational talk of the scientific process..." and then there are incompetents who make up for shoddy work by exaggerating the potential consequences of their work in order to attract more funding.
"Himalaya glaciers to disappear by 2035..."
"50% reduction in African food productions..."
"All arctic sea ice to disappear..."
"Island nations to disappear..."
This is not the "...measured, rational talk of the scientific process...", this is scaremongering. The problem with the current state of climate science is that incompetent scientists unable to see their own errors and sloppiness - "Phil Jones, Michael Mann, James Hansen, et all...." were given center stage and allowed to be the focus of the effort. The task of being scientifically objective was beyond their capability. I don't particularly fault the scientists other than their general incompetence to disallow confirmation bias from swamping these important results. I more fault the politicians who driven by a political agenda, gave funding to incompetents who were unable to handle the need to practice good science over advocacy of the funding sources. AGW may or may not be true, but the lesson here is when a scientific field becomes this important for public policy, care must be taken as to who the lead authors are.
#20 Posted by John Hansen, CJR on Tue 16 Feb 2010 at 12:30 PM
What Montanaman0 said.
For myself, I've always believed that, when faced with two polar-opposite positions, the truth is usually somewhere in the middle. In this case, there's likely some degree of GW going on, with human causation being only part of it and the rest driven by long-term weather cycles.
If the AGW advocates' position had simply been "here's more reason to get serious about conservation and cleaner energy sources", that would have been one thing - but it was their insistence that "doomsday is nigh, and the only solution is to vacuum trillions of dollars from the pockets of the world's taxpayers and transfer them to a rogues' gallery of UN apparatchiks, NGO grandees and Third World kleptocrats" that fueled the skepticism.
#21 Posted by Jeff, CJR on Tue 16 Feb 2010 at 12:45 PM
Re: Garhighway
And the flood of government grant money that funds the promoters of AGW like Phil Jones, et.al.? I would argue that aside from the doubtfulness of your assertion about carbon industry money funding the deniers, the fact that AGW promoters like the head of IPCC Pachauri and AlGore are both making a killing off of their business interests that depend on the promotion of the AGW nonsense negates your point.
I agree their is too much rancor in this debate. Like Phil Jones the head of the Climate Research Unit at East Anglia University hoping for the demise of one of his chief antagonists, McIntyre as well as the Warmistas comparing those unconvinced of AGW with holocaust deniers and flat earthers.
That you would try to make this point in the comments on a story whose principal point was that the MSM here was not covering both the pros and cons of the global warming story shows how entrenched your belief in AGW is.
Isn't it though?
#22 Posted by Verde, CJR on Tue 16 Feb 2010 at 01:02 PM
If one must be informed on Climategate,best not waste ones time with newspapers; the go to source is Wattsupwiththat and Eureferendum.blogspot.com.
#23 Posted by renminbi, CJR on Tue 16 Feb 2010 at 01:02 PM
This whole issue has damaged the credibility of the media as much as it has damaged the credibility of the scientific community. I have to give CJR some credit for rapping the knuckles of journalists on this story; I'm surprised it has done so. Journalists certainly deserve criticism for putting ideology ahead of principled reporting.
#24 Posted by Frank, CJR on Tue 16 Feb 2010 at 01:50 PM
I suspect Curtis Brainard doesn't even understand what the theory is beyond 'CO2 warms the planet'. The actual radiative physics calculations don't give enough warming to worry about. It's the feedbacks, stupid.
The theory expects those feedbacks to be positive and to cause more than the base radiative warming. Well, is that happening? Nope. After 15 years of no statistically significant warming, it's back to the drawing board. Seriously.
The climate models do not capture, nor even seem to understand, the magnitude of natural variation. That clever hockey stick did the damage.
And 'all that evidence' that people point to shows only that there has been warming--NOT the cause of the warming (which goes back to the lack of understanding of the magnitude of natural variation). The future impacts laid out by the IPCC are specious. (1)many of them are not based on peer-reviewed science but on statements from advocacy groups such as the WWF and Greenpeace and (2)others are based on the assumption of HOW MUCH warming will take place and if the assumptions are wrong so are the impacts.
As has been said, the unraveling of the movement via ClimateGate and the IPCC follies, does not 'give skeptics fodder' it proves them right!
#25 Posted by Syl, CJR on Tue 16 Feb 2010 at 01:56 PM
The MSM began their decline into obscurity with a lack of any critical coverage of the 2008 elections (or at least any candidate with a name other than Sarah Palin!) and are accelerating that trend with their lack of coverage of the AGW fraud.
#26 Posted by TStephens, CJR on Tue 16 Feb 2010 at 02:05 PM
I love BIG MEDIA - http://www.M4GW.com
#27 Posted by GREEN JOB$ CZAR, CJR on Tue 16 Feb 2010 at 02:43 PM
More news you won't find in BIG MSM - http://www.NewNation.org
#28 Posted by VERITAS, CJR on Tue 16 Feb 2010 at 02:55 PM
There remains the question as to whether there is AGW. It seems that it is not anthropogenic, at least not due to outgoing radiation being trapped by CO2. Lindzen and Choi (GRL Aug 09) find from analysis of satellite data that outgoing radiation is not trapped. That is in contrast to the climate models that assume radiation is trapped by CO2. So if the MIT boys are interpreting the data correctly, there is no A in GW. Don't forget to lift a few to the CRU hacker.
#29 Posted by Claude Hopper, CJR on Tue 16 Feb 2010 at 03:05 PM
Folks, what we have here is CJR engaging in a little retrospective plausible deniabillity. This AGW business is quite plainly the largest financial fraud in history, as well as one of the most tyrannical thefts of human liberty ever. When the full story is known, many in the media-government complex will have their careers and reputations ruined, if they do not in fact go to prison. CJR wants to be able to say "we told you so", even though they did nothing of the sort, and this sad, lame little episode of hand-waving is their best effort. It will do nothing to stop the tsunami about to engulf the liars, thieves and tyrants of the AGW conspiracy.
#30 Posted by John Skookum, CJR on Tue 16 Feb 2010 at 03:08 PM
As David Wojick, Ph.D says, AGW does exist. HOWEVER, the real *continuing* debate is over it's degree of significance to overall Climate Change. Most data suggests that man's effect on the earth's climate is relatively insignificant compared with other major forces at play, such as the presence of water vapor in the atmosphere and solar cycles. If the belief that AGW plays an insignificant role in Climate Change becomes the consensus, will the IPCC appropriately cease it's malevolence toward free markets and industry? Does anyone doubt that the answer is 'no?'
After the Climate Change Gambit is exposed, the UN & The Powers That Be will simply find another crisis to justify increasing their wealth and/or power. The conscientious Climate Scientists will join Doomsayers Anonymous, but they will be replaced by ________ Scientists receiving fat taxpayer-funded grants to warn of us of imminent catastrophe. Count me a ________ skeptic.
#31 Posted by prosanity, CJR on Tue 16 Feb 2010 at 03:54 PM
OUR FOUNDER was able to serve the people for 40+ years because the MSM liked him - http://www.FATBOY.cc
CHAPPAQUIDDICK - http://www.inlibertyandfreedom.com/mjk.htm
#32 Posted by Teddy's SEARCH and RESCUE, CJR on Tue 16 Feb 2010 at 04:03 PM
"History will regard the AGW nonsense as the greatest scientific and journalistic scam that ever existed."
Sing it Senator Imhofe. What's the matter, can't write your own lines? Oh yeah, there is only a short list on the wingnut talking points written on palms of hands.
The science of AGW is unassailable. These looney tune rantings will go down as the death throws of a crowd of scientific illiterates who are only scared of taxes not yet written into law. End of story.
#33 Posted by Mark A. York, CJR on Tue 16 Feb 2010 at 04:44 PM
Columbia School of Journalism is where the "Journalists" learn to lie with implications, insinuations, innuendos and selective presentation of the truth. CSJ is Liar Central; how amusing that it casts itself as the objective commenter on this case of MSM falsehood central.
#34 Posted by mike, CJR on Tue 16 Feb 2010 at 04:49 PM
Anthony Watts goes up in flames. These deniers are just sadly delusional. Everything they say is false. It's up to journalists and scientists to keep pounding this message home in the media the same way denier lies are. Every denier assertion is demonstrably false.
http://www1.ncdc.noaa.gov/pub/data/ushcn/v2/monthly/menne-etal2010.pdf
#35 Posted by Mark A. York, CJR on Tue 16 Feb 2010 at 04:52 PM
"The science of AGW is unassailable"
If you call that "science" you need a refund on your education. Unless you majored in one of the soft sciences, which actually have nothing at all to do with the kind of science that measures physical properties.
#36 Posted by TStephens, CJR on Tue 16 Feb 2010 at 04:59 PM
"The science of AGW is unassailable"
LOL! The average "climate scientist" ranks right up there with phrenologists and astrologers. Most finished in the bottom of their classes (ask them) and couldn't get a real job in industry. Hence their data manipulation to continue to obtain government grants.
#37 Posted by dave72, CJR on Tue 16 Feb 2010 at 05:27 PM
Another LEFTIST the media chose to champion - http://www.LIVESHOT.cc
#38 Posted by SWIFTVETS.com, CJR on Tue 16 Feb 2010 at 05:34 PM
Pearce recounts the stories of long and ongoing battles between scientists and skeptics...
So, is your point that none of the skeptics are scientists or that scientists shouldn't be skeptical? Because I thought it was the other way round.
#39 Posted by ronbo, CJR on Tue 16 Feb 2010 at 05:48 PM
Please, Please pay attention. Most of the IPCC predictions are based on statistical modeling using computer software programs written by scientists. This activity is more an art form than than a science. That is to say that we have mostly amateurs at writing the modeling code code. Properly written code has an explanatory edit attached to every line. Reading the emails it would appear that the coding used by the climatologists was a mess. The Guardian or Independant had an article about code used in the scientific community and it was hardly complimentary. Perhaps the most stunning thing about this whole climate affair was the acceptance by so called intellectuals of the phrase "scientific consensus". Read Feynam's 1974 Caltech Convocational address re "Cargo Cult Science" available in text and video on the net.He lays out some criteria that was totally absent from what was being presented and their scientific behaviour. David Stern
#40 Posted by David Stern, CJR on Tue 16 Feb 2010 at 06:38 PM
Brainard's take, in a nutshell: nothing to see here, folks, move along!
#41 Posted by William Bell, CJR on Tue 16 Feb 2010 at 06:44 PM
The Leftwing Media's "LOCK" on information is melting - http://www.NewsBusters.org
#42 Posted by Climate Criminal SUV Driver, CJR on Tue 16 Feb 2010 at 07:48 PM
I don't pay any attention to the taunts of morons. You couldn't fill thimble with what these commenters know about science. It shows every time, sadly.
#43 Posted by Mark A. York, CJR on Tue 16 Feb 2010 at 07:54 PM
You think this is bad. Look at how the MSM covered the John Edwards and Van Jones stories, just to pick a couple at random. Well, maybe "totally ignoring" is a better phrase.
#44 Posted by Banjo, CJR on Tue 16 Feb 2010 at 08:32 PM
"The science of AGW is unassailable" = Faith. Science thrives on skepticism.
#45 Posted by Anonymoose, CJR on Tue 16 Feb 2010 at 08:55 PM
God is dead.
#46 Posted by OSweet, CJR on Tue 16 Feb 2010 at 09:40 PM
When you cite the IPCC's review of itself as though it had any credibility, it makes me wonder how you would have treated the Nixon White House internal review of Watergate.
#47 Posted by Data Rules, CJR on Wed 17 Feb 2010 at 01:22 AM
AGW denialism is the 9/11 Trutherism of the ultra-right. They sound exactly like Truthers declaring the “official story” dead because some engineer or another said something off-the-cuff that turned out to be wrong, which proves the airplanes were holograms. At least I think that’s how it works. Same thing with AGW: if the medieval warm period happened at all, it is now technologically impossible for pollutant gases released by human activity to ever, ever, ever have an impact on our environment, at all, nyeah nyeah no backsies.
#48 Posted by TTT, CJR on Thu 18 Feb 2010 at 11:13 AM
TTT wrote: They [climate change skeptics] sound exactly like Truthers declaring the “official story” dead because some engineer or another said something off-the-cuff that turned out to be wrong, which proves the airplanes were holograms
padikiller responds: Yep... Except that the "official story" is instead the IPCC report, and except that "some engineer or another" is instead the lead author of the IPCC report, and except that "something off-the-cuff" is instead an ever-growing list of erroneous findings of "fact" and except that instead of proving the existence of holograms, the facts exposed so far show corruption, collusion and conspiracy.
Yep... Except for these little details, you've the nail pretty much right on the head.
#49 Posted by padikiller, CJR on Thu 18 Feb 2010 at 12:58 PM
Yet, a couple of of clerical errors by a report compiler does not a totally flawed report make. See logic 101. Either/or fallacy.
These continued accusations on the IPCC are wild political hyperbole. Just the most empty wingnut conspiracy we've come to expect from this incompetent camp of Keystone Cop critics.
More inconvenient truth from experts.
First, the main findings of IPCC over the years, have they been seriously cast in doubt? No….
On balance if you look at all the things the IPCC [Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, the body of experts convened by the United Nations to advise governments in responding to global warming] has been doing over the last number of years, they were trying very hard to put in all the peer-reviewed serious stuff. I’ve actually always felt that they were taking a somewhat conservative stand on many issues and for justifiable reasons….
They should be able to say that this is serious science and take a somewhat conservative view. If you look at the climate sceptics, I would have to say honestly, what standard are they being held to? It’s very asymmetric. They get to say anything they want. In the end, the core of science is deeply self checking.
That’s Energy Secretary Steven Chu in his new interview with the Financial Times (regis. req’d).
#50 Posted by Mark A. York, CJR on Thu 18 Feb 2010 at 05:11 PM
Dude... The Head Honcho of the CRU just admitted that there has been any significant warming in 15 years!
FIFTEEN YEARS!
It's done. Kaput. Finit. Terminado
#51 Posted by padikiller, CJR on Thu 18 Feb 2010 at 06:04 PM
Watch NOAA Administrator Jane Lubchenco do the AGW Two-Step around the simple question of whether or not she agrees that the last 15 years saw no significant global warming
http://cnsnews.com/news/article/61525
This is just getting sillier and sillier. No straight answers. Just screwy liberal nonsense and evasion, in thinly disguised government "scientific" garb.
So now in AGW Land, all of a sudden, you can't look at "short periods of time"? They don't mean anything anymore? Things sure have changed in the last few years! Isn't urgency what the "hockey stick" was all about? Weren't 50% of the North African crops supposed to be wiped out in just ten years? The Himalayan glaciers melted away in just 25?
I wonder exactly how long a period of time needs to be before it is assigned any meaning nowadays?... I bet it will a snowy day in the Hot Place before this tax-sucking NOAA bureaucrat comes clean with a number.
#52 Posted by padikiller, CJR on Thu 18 Feb 2010 at 08:58 PM
Mr. Brainard:
I have worked in the field of journalism for over 35 years. Your article is, quite honestly, terrible. Why haven't you bothered to ask the tough questions, and instead chosen to gloss over problems that have come to light? Why aren't you digging deeper and calling people to account, like a real journalist should? Where is the original temperature data? How was it, ahem, lost? Why did nobody at the UN bother to find out that the sole source for a part of the report was a student paper? Why not find out about the read me file? What about the hockey stick graph that was shown to be false? What about cherry picked tree ring data? What about evidence showing temperature stations being located next to significant heat sources?
There are many questions that need to be answered. They will not be answered unless YOU ask them. But, apparently, you seem all too eager to simply parrot the narrative. A journalist, you most certainly are not.
#53 Posted by Steve, CJR on Thu 18 Feb 2010 at 10:18 PM
Just so that I understand, here:
Pearce's piece was superior, because after calling out the scientists for their bias, hiding of data, mistakes, and (in some cases) manipulation of data... Pearce comes to the conclusion that there is nothing to disprove AGW because the -scientists- said so?
Can we get into more circular reasoning?
#54 Posted by John, CJR on Fri 19 Feb 2010 at 12:04 AM
Now that we've found a few problems with the IPCC report claims and sources and not the individual overlapping studies which reinforce the conclusions that atmospheric change is in fact a very bad thing, can we talk about the skeptics? There's been a bunch of juicy stuff coming from deep climate blog involving denialist plagiarism, mistakes, corruption, etc... For instance:
http://deepclimate.org/2010/02/04/steve-mcintyre-and-ross-mckitrick-part-1-in-the-beginning/
The whole blog has posts dealing with the juicy connections on the denial community, which has very few ethics and who's public speech is being contrasted with the private words of climate scientists in stolen emails (an unfair comparison as there has ever been).
More in a moment.
#55 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Fri 19 Feb 2010 at 11:15 AM
What also needs to be noticed is that the UK press has been getting awful at inventing quotes and controversy in its zeal to expose "climate fraud".
ie:
http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2010/02/daily-mangle/
http://scienceblogs.com/deltoid/2010/02/leakegate_the_case_for_fraud.php
Then the right wing in the US parrots the claims of the slanted reporting.
Hell, it wasn't that long ago that the blogs passed around the Mojib Latif false claim that he expected a phase global cooling and that global warming is false.
He had to personally rebut that one.
The best reporting on climate science/scandals these days is coming out of the Guardian. Most everybody else has been terrible.
#56 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Fri 19 Feb 2010 at 11:26 AM
"I wonder exactly how long a period of time needs to be before it is assigned any meaning nowadays?.."
100 years. Climate is long term. Weather is short. Wingers are ignorant about every assertion on climate. These are constants.
http://data.giss.nasa.gov/gistemp/graphs/Fig.A2.lrg.gif
#57 Posted by Mark A. York, CJR on Fri 19 Feb 2010 at 12:59 PM
padikiller wrote: "I wonder exactly how long a period of time needs to be before it is assigned any meaning nowadays?.."
Dr. York answered: 100 years
padikiller responds: 100 years? If it takes 100 years to show any significant change, then what is all the panic about?.. But what the hell, I'll play;;
Let's do the 20th century using the NASA-Goddard data, just for laught...
From 1900 (where the global average temperature anomaly was -0.7 degrees C) to 2000 (where the global average temperature anomaly was 0.33 degrees C), the 100 year increase over the century was 0.4 degrees C. That's it.
http://data.giss.nasa.gov/gistemp/graphs/Fig.A2.txt
Even using a 100 year interval, it still takes cherrypicking to state the AGW case. If you want to show a 1 degree rise, you have to arbitrarily pick your interval.
#58 Posted by padikiller, CJR on Fri 19 Feb 2010 at 08:25 PM
1.5 F no cherrypicking on our side. Yours. Oh yeah. One degree is a big deal in climate over time. You don't get it. Try again.
#59 Posted by Mark A. York, CJR on Mon 22 Feb 2010 at 07:26 PM
Arithmetic Hour with Padikiller
The average temperature of the Earth is 287 degrees K.
Ths difference between the average global temperature in 1900 and in 2000 is 0.4 degrees K.
Thus the percentage increase in the average global temperature between 1900 and 2000 was 0.4 divided by 287 - about a tenth of a percent.. Over a hundred years.
Choosing different starting dates can inflate this 100 year increase to as much a 1.2 degrees K.. Raising the 100 year increase a whopping four tenths of measely percent... Of course picking a purely arbitrary interval is hardly "scientific".
Interestingly enough, the observed variation in solar intensity is about... a tenth of a percent...
#60 Posted by padikiller, CJR on Mon 22 Feb 2010 at 07:58 PM
Measly in whose view? Your uniformed one to be exact.
http://moregrumbinescience.blogspot.com/2009/01/results-on-deciding-trends.html
In brief (in a journal paper, this would be the 'abstract'):
You need 20-30 years of data to define a climate trend in global mean temperature
Forward and backward trends are markedly different
Therefore, to discuss climate trends in global mean temperature, you need to use 20-30 years of data centered on the date of interest.
physics.indiana.edu/~brabson/p120/ahw4.html
"Today, the average surface temperature is approximately T = 288 K indicating a considerable amount of climate warming during this period."
The decade of 1998-2007 is the warmest on record, according to data sources obtained by the World Meteorological Organization (WMO). The global mean surface temperature for 2007 is currently estimated at 0.41°C/0.74°F above the 1961-1990 annual average of 14.00°C/57.20°F….
Since the start of the 20th century, the global average surface temperature has risen by 0.74°C. But this rise has not been continuous. The linear warming trend over the last 50 years (0.13°C per decade) is nearly twice that for the last 100 years.
Your arithmetic fails. So does any solar attribution.
http://digitalcommons.calpoly.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1045&context=phy_fac
#61 Posted by Mark A. York, CJR on Mon 22 Feb 2010 at 08:56 PM
Dr. York wrote: You need 20-30 years of data.. ....you need to use 20-30 years of data centered on the date of interest... ...The decade of 1998-2007 is the warmest... The global mean surface temperature for 2007 is currently estimated at 0.41°C/0.74°F above the 1961-1990 annual average of 14.00°C/57.20°F…. ...Since the start of the 20th century ...The linear warming trend over the last 50 years (0.13°C per decade) is nearly twice that for the last 100 years.
padikiller notes: This is precisely the kind of cherry-picking that AGWism requires
#62 Posted by padikiller, CJR on Mon 22 Feb 2010 at 09:05 PM
Professor York Changes His Tune: AGWism, Stupidity Illustrated
Here is Dr. York, in an earlier post in the "MIA on the IPCC: thread!:
http://www.cjr.org/the_observatory/mia_on_the_ipcc.php#comments
padikiller asked when Dr. York griped about a 15 year period of cooling: "I wonder exactly how long a period of time needs to be before it is assigned any meaning nowadays?.."
Dr. York replied authoritatively then: "100 years. Climate is long term. Weather is short. Wingers are ignorant about every assertion on climate. These are constants."
Dr. York dances the "AGW Two-Step" now: "The linear warming trend over the last 50 years (0.13°C per decade) is nearly twice that for the last 100 years."
On this thread, "Doc" York writes: "You need 20-30 years of data.. ....you need to use 20-30 years of data centered on the date of interest... ...The decade of 1998-2007 is the warmest... The global mean surface temperature for 2007 is currently estimated at 0.41°C/0.74°F above the 1961-1990 annual average of 14.00°C/57.20°F…. ...Since the start of the 20th century ..."
padikiller scoffs at the silliness:Now Dr. York... If it takes a period of 100 years to be meaningful (as you plainly stated), then why are you touting a meaningless 50 year period now? Or even less?
If it takes 100 years to be meaningful, then why are you talking about 20 year trends here, "Professor"?
HUH?
How about it, there "Doc"?
#63 Posted by padikiller, CJR on Mon 22 Feb 2010 at 09:57 PM
That's Dr. Robert Grumbine I'm quoting.
http://moregrumbinescience.blogspot.com/2009/03/does-co2-correlate-with-temperature.html
You see, he has a doctorate. I don't and neither do you. The fact is 100 years is meaningful as is 150 or 1000, or 800,000, but to test for statistical significance, 20 to 30 years is necessary, thus the assertion of Dr. Jones oft cited as no statistically significant cooling since 1995. Not translated as "no warming," as in next to nothing. As we've seen, even that shorter period of time is almost at the 95 percent level.
You have an absolutist need as do all religious wingnuts. Science isn't about that. It's about a preponderance of evidence. You ignore all of it. A Duncecap is in order. Or as Engval said, "Here's your sign."
#64 Posted by Mark A. York, CJR on Mon 22 Feb 2010 at 11:31 PM
Mark A. York said:
You see, he has a doctorate. I don't and neither do you.
Gee, Dr. Phil at the CRU in East Anglia has a Ph.D., and he wasn't able to see that there was no global warming for the last fifteen years, until recently.
I expect, based on your post, that it will take you another (100-15) = 85 years to figure out that there is no AGW; there's the benefit of advanced education for you.
Why don't you go back to school and earn a doctorate, you could save 85 years of confusion by my calculations!
Wanderer (studying for my Ph.D. , but not in Climate Science!)
#65 Posted by Wanderer, CJR on Mon 22 Feb 2010 at 11:52 PM
Try a Ph.D in something other than basket weaving. You're like the p.killer-diddy idiot. Dead from the neck up. Why don't you go F- yourself.
#66 Posted by Mark A. York, CJR on Tue 23 Feb 2010 at 12:09 AM
"Gee, Dr. Phil at the CRU in East Anglia has a Ph.D., and he wasn't able to see that there was no global warming for the last fifteen years, until recently."
Stop saying stupid things, Mr. PHD. This one has been corrected multiple times.
http://www.cjr.org/the_observatory/mia_on_the_ipcc.php#comment-25369
PHD's aren't supposed to fall into tabloid traps, so stop it.
#67 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Tue 23 Feb 2010 at 12:09 AM
Dr. York Elucidates: "The fact is 100 years is meaningful as is 150 or 1000, or 800,000, but to test for statistical significance, 20 to 30 years is necessary"
padikiller notes: Gotcha! There is a difference between "meaningful" and "significant".... Because you say so...
Science is a many-splendored thing to behold, Professor.
#68 Posted by padikiller, CJR on Tue 23 Feb 2010 at 12:26 AM
" Mark A. York wrote:
Try a Ph.D in something other than basket weaving. You're like the p.killer-diddy idiot. Dead from the neck up. Why don't you go F- yourself."
Typical response of those who embarrass themselves. I can't be insulted by someone so incoherent.
"Thimbles wrote:
Stop saying stupid things, Mr. PHD. This one has been corrected multiple times."
Read more closely, Mr./Ms. Thimbles: I am STUDYING for my Ph.D., don't have it yet. And as for saying stupid things, how is defending AGW wise? Whether or not Jones says "not statistically significant" or "none" is not really important in the long run; the story is that WE WERE ALL GOING TO DIE IN HORRIBLE AGONY AS THE GLACIERS MELTED AND THE SEA LEVEL ROSE until a few months ago; now it turns out the glaciers aren't melting all that fast, and the sea level won't rise anytime soon.
The only tabloid traps I've seen are the ones the National Enquirer laid, first for Bill Clinton and then for John Edwards. It's a comment on the state of CJR journalism when the Enquirer has better reporting than the NYT, or WaPo, or any of the other "mainstream" news organizations.
#69 Posted by Wanderer, CJR on Tue 23 Feb 2010 at 12:48 AM
I don't play Gotcha. Significant it is and has been. All of those periods are significant. Science isn't about word gaming. You got nuthin Bubba. I have facts.
Wanderer don't come around here insulting people on the first pass and expect a bouquet of roses. This isn't some wingnut fantasyland. The story is these climactic changes are real and happening now. With business as usual they will get worse. Sooner rather than later. That's the take home message. The mainstream papers have all adopted a tabloid mentality and played the false balance card to the advantage of sceptic nitwits, who don't a relevant scientific argument in the fight. I call that conservative affirmative action. Other voices should reflect some semblance of validity. They don't.
#70 Posted by Mark A. York, CJR on Tue 23 Feb 2010 at 04:27 PM
sorry Mark, youre on the wrong bus. science is science and my engineering education tells me that the data does not prove the theory and does not even fit it. there are too many political zealots in this little scam looking for an anti-capitalist story. you are all the same, looking for an excuse for your own failure.
#71 Posted by kristof kolumbus, CJR on Mon 1 Mar 2010 at 07:07 AM
"sorry Mark, youre on the wrong bus. science is science and my engineering education tells me that the data does not prove the theory and does not even fit it."
Not to interrupt, but how does your engineering education tell you that the data does not prove the theory or fit it?
I mean you could be being sophistic and saying that "no theory can be proved and that science is the enterprise of testing old theories and inventing new ones to explain phenomenon", but the way you're phrasing it indicates that the theory has failed some test of yours.
What is the scientific basis, from your engineering background, for finding fault with the global warming theory and what is the alternate theory for explaining observed phenomenon such as these:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w9SGw75pVas
#72 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Mon 1 Mar 2010 at 11:41 AM
Royal Society of Chemistry Slams CRU AGWists
http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200910/cmselect/cmsctech/memo/climatedata/uc4202.htm
Yestersday it was the Institute of Physics dumping on the AGW pseudoscience. Today, it's the Royal Society of Chemistry.
The silly AGW schtick is falling apart faster than anyone could have imagined.
"13. As has been set out in the review, it is necessary to investigate the email exchanges which were discovered along with other relevant CRU information to establish whether data have been manipulated or suppressed. This is, not only needed in order to identify any unacceptable behaviour, but also to verify the results which have been published. This is vital in clarifying the severity of the acts carried out by those scientists at the CRU involved, i.e. whether it was a misguided protection of their work or a malicious misrepresentation of data."
Now THAT, Believingists of the World, is some Ole' School Scientific Skepticism for you.
#73 Posted by padikiller, CJR on Mon 1 Mar 2010 at 02:37 PM
Well, that's what is alleged, falsely so in my view, and that will come out of such an inquiry. Saying what the investigation and complaint is about is not the same thing as subscribing to it. Hello? You're a walking fallacy file dude. LOL! You must have some sort of learning disability. Do you get a check from Virginia for it?
What will you do when CRU is cleared, as it already has been in others? Yell conspiracy again? If you denialists/sceptics had a real theory you wouldn't need lies and criminal acts to support your baseless allegations.
#74 Posted by Mark A. York, CJR on Mon 1 Mar 2010 at 05:29 PM
Well kolumbus monkey, I'm on the scientific reality train, while you are sailing on a river in Egypt in a leaking raft made of reeds. Engineer your way out that one.
#75 Posted by Mark A. York, CJR on Mon 1 Mar 2010 at 05:34 PM
Dr. York: Well, that's what is alleged, falsely so in my view...
padikiller: Your "view" and $3.99 will buy a Happy Meal... Despite your B.A. in journalism and your "Super Secret U.S. Government Scientist-Type" job.
Thankfully the views that are important in dealing with Climategate are the reasoned, skeptical ones like those that the Royal Society of Chemistry and the Institute of Physics have espoused.
#76 Posted by padikiller, CJR on Mon 1 Mar 2010 at 06:24 PM
Your knowledge on science couldn't fill a sewing thimble. Luckily the views in dealing with buttheadimaginationgate are simple. You see science is the best defense against assertions from morons be they in London or Lynchburg.
Anytime you'd like to match credentials. Feel free to post up. Of course blowhard cowards rarely do. They hide under rocks and throw stones.
That one just bought you an official complaint to the management of this site. Think they'll laugh at my credentials? I don't.
#77 Posted by Mark A. York, CJR on Mon 1 Mar 2010 at 10:32 PM
"Your knowledge on science couldn't fill a sewing thimble."
Hey! I take offense to that!
#78 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Tue 2 Mar 2010 at 02:37 AM
Climate sceptics Flounder in Parliament Hearing
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2010/mar/01/phil-jones-climate-science-emails-select-committee-hearing
"Under questions from the committee, prominent climate sceptics Nigel Lawson and Benny Peiser, who represented the Global Warming Policy Foundation, conceded that the use of the word "trick" was innocuous. Lawson said the issue was that the scientists had not disclosed the way they blended several separate data sets into single graph, which he called a "fudge". Jones said this was not true, and the technique was widely discussed in scientific papers.
Lawson and Peiser said they did not think the release of the emails questioned the underlying science of climate change. "This is nothing to do with the basic science, that's not the issue," Lawson said. Peiser said the emails had "tarnished the image of British science around the world""
#79 Posted by Smith River, CJR on Tue 2 Mar 2010 at 03:13 PM
Institute of Physics backs off.
http://www.iop.org/News/news_40679.html
"The Institute of Physics recently submitted a response to a House of Commons Science and Technology Committee call for evidence in relation to its inquiry into the disclosure of climate data from the Climatic Research Unit at the University of East Anglia.
The Institute's statement, which has been published both on the Institute's website and the Committee's, has been interpreted by some individuals to imply that it does not support the scientific evidence that the rising concentration of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere is contributing to global warming.
That is not the case. The Institute's position on climate change is clear: the basic science is well enough understood to be sure that our climate is changing – and that we need to take action now to mitigate that change.
More information about IOP's views
The Institute's response to the Committee inquiry was approved by its Science Board, a formal committee of the Institute with delegated authority from its trustees to oversee its policy work.
It reflected our belief that the open exchange of data, procedures and materials is fundamental to the scientific process. From the information already in the public domain it appears that these principles have been put at risk in the present case, and that this has undermined the trust that is placed in the scientific process.
These comments, focused on the scientific process, should not be interpreted to mean that the Institute believes that the science itself is flawed."
#80 Posted by Smith River, CJR on Tue 2 Mar 2010 at 05:33 PM
So let's talk about climate scandals.
http://www.usatoday.com/weather/climate/globalwarming/2010-11-21-climate-report-questioned_N.htm
"Review of the 91-page report by three experts contacted by USA TODAY found repeated instances of passages lifted word for word and what appear to be thinly disguised paraphrases.
The charges of plagiarism don't negate one of the basic premises of the report — that climate scientists used poor statistics in two widely noted papers.
But the allegations come as some in Congress call for more investigations of climate scientists like the one that produced the Wegman report.
"It kind of undermines the credibility of your work criticizing others' integrity when you don't conform to the basic rules of scholarship," Virginia Tech plagiarism expert Skip Garner says.
U.N. CONFERENCE:Negotiators give talks another try
Led by George Mason University statistician Edward Wegman, the 2006 report criticized the statistics and scholarship of scientists who found the last century the warmest in 1,000 years.
"The report was integral to congressional hearings about climate scientists," says Aaron Huertas of the Union of Concerned Scientists in Washington, D.C. "And it preceded a lot of conspiratorial thinking polluting the public debate today about climate scientists."
But in March, climate scientist Raymond Bradley of the University of Massachusetts asked GMU, based in Fairfax, Va., to investigate "clear plagiarism" of one of his textbooks.
Bradley says he learned of the copying on the Deep Climate website and through a now year-long analysis of the Wegman report made by retired computer scientist John Mashey of Portola Valley, Calif. Mashey's analysis concludes that 35 of the report's 91 pages "are mostly plagiarized text, but often injected with errors, bias and changes of meaning." Copying others' text or ideas without crediting them violates universities' standards, according to Liz Wager of the London-based Committee on Publication Ethics."
The press could have headed this story 6 months to a year ago if they had followed the Deep Climate blog listed above instead of blowing smoke over the public with bogus Climategate charges.
Good on USA today.
#81 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Wed 24 Nov 2010 at 12:21 AM
The comments on this particular artilcle are probably the most intelligent and well-informed comments I've ever read about AGW. Will they have an effect? I wonder. My conclusion is that so much money is at stake that what is written here and elsewhere is so much wasted breath. It is not very difficult to confuse the American electorate. And as regards AGW, this is very much a political issue. I see no reason to believe that this country will overcome its AGW confusion in time to make a serious effort to deal with the problem. It should be pointed out, though, that many other areas of the world, rightly or wrongly, have decided that AGW is indeed a real problem and must be dealt with. Are they right? Are they wrong? Like most people here, I'm not at all sure. If the press doesn't do its job of educating us seriously then this country will be unable to take the leadership position all the rest of the world is expecting from us. Isn't there more you can do? Isn't there more guidance you can give us?
#82 Posted by Rozzer, CJR on Mon 28 Feb 2011 at 04:18 PM