Finally, a mainstream media outlet has broken through the dominant narrative about Social Security and showed what the program means in dollars and cents to the fifty-five million people who rely on its monthly checks. You would never know that Social Security had any connection to real human beings from the media’s emphasis on gigantic numbers and political scaremongering about the program going broke.
A major thread woven into most reportage has been that people are living longer—at least certain people are, like white men with good jobs—and that good fortune justifies raising the age for eligibility and changing the calculation for the cost-of-living adjustment (COLA) in ways that some experts believe could penalize very old people at a time when their incomes have dwindled. Proposed changes in the way COLA is figured will save the government a wad of money, though, and that, according to the Beltway’s financial wizards, is a good thing—a sentiment the press has not hesitated to pass along.
CBS told how the lack of COLA increases over the last few years have made it tough for seniors to pay for food, gasoline, medicine, and rent. But help is coming next year in the form of a Social Security raise, roughly about $38 for someone receiving the average benefit of $1082. For seniors, said correspondent Wyatt Andrews, “It’s real money and it’s about time.” One Florida man told viewers: “With the increase in Social Security, I will be able to have heat and cold whenever I need it.” Andrews offered more context about seniors’ financial predicament, reporting that low or nonexistent interest on their retirement nest eggs coupled with falling housing prices have made things worse. A triple whammy, you might say.
The reporting was notable, though, for two points that have been virtually ignored by the MSM. Anchor Scott Pelley wanted to know why seniors had not seen a COLA increase in three years, even though prices for food and gasoline have skyrocketed. Andrews explained that the law tied COLA increases to the Consumer Price Index for wage earners, but many seniors no longer earn wages, so the CPI doesn’t always reflect what they buy. One way to change the COLA formula, he said, might be to weight it in a way that tracks what seniors actually spend their money on, like transportation and health care.
The National Academy of Social Insurance has produced a report that explains different options for changing the COLA. Reporters might want to give it a look, since COLA changes will be a hot news topic when the congressional supercommittee tackles deficit issues at the end of the year.
Then came the story’s kicker, in which Pelley reported on who actually receives Social Security benefits: “We were surprised to see that about a third are under the age of sixty-five.” At last a news outlet was reporting that Social Security was not just for old people. Nearly seventeen million people under the age of sixty-five are on Social Security, Pelley reported. They were those receiving disability and survivor’s benefits. A surprise? It shouldn’t have been. Social Security was established in 1935 to insure against loss of income due to some of life’s major calamities—the loss of income from old age, disability, or the death of a breadwinner. It was good to see CBS pass this fact along to viewers, who probably did not know about it either. Now the next thing CBS might want to explore is whether this year’s COLA increases are adequate.
Click here for more from Trudy Lieberman on Social Security and entitlement reform.
CBS told how the lack of COLA increases over the last few years have made it tough for seniors to pay for food, gasoline, medicine, and rent.
But that’s ridiculous and I need to look no further than this magazine to prove to you that THERE IS NO INLFATION
#1 Posted by Mike H, CJR on Fri 21 Oct 2011 at 02:25 PM
There have been price fluctuations, but the trend for goods has been static, if not negative, since the recession despite the money pump from the fed to the banks. The significant hits to seniors has been both the collapse of both accumulated asset value (like house equity and stock investments) and pension income.
As for what happened to pension income, that appears to be the lonely beat of Ellen Shultz. The real problem is that retirees are becoming ever more dependent on federally guaranteed entitlements as they are being cut back, though not at the immediate rate of the private retirement system which has proven corrupt and bankrupt.
#2 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Fri 21 Oct 2011 at 03:17 PM
Trudy wrote: "Social Security was established in 1935 to insure against loss of income due to some of life’s major calamities—the loss of income from old age, disability, or the death of a breadwinner."
padikiller tolls the Reality Bell: The disability boondoggle didn't start until 1956. Making it appear otherwise misleads the readers.
Moving on, it would be nice to see a story on the cost of raising retiree benefits to the "working poor" - you know, the hypothetical people that the commies always posit when the discussion spins on tax policy?
We're dealing with the typical commie/liberal double standard. When it comes to taxes, then according to the commies, the "working poor" are being screwed by The Man because of employment taxes.
But when the discussion turns to benefits paid from these taxes, and when these same employment taxes that otherwise overburden the "working poor" are diverted to pay increased benefits to others who paid less into the system than the "working poor" are paying - well, that's just hunky-dory. The "working poor" just need to suck it up and dole over their wages to pay other people more deserving than they are - even if these more deserving people live in mansions or penthouses and even if they never paid a dime into the system.
#3 Posted by padikiller, CJR on Sat 22 Oct 2011 at 09:58 AM
I've never heard of this "employment tax" you speak of. Are you talking about the payroll tax?
#4 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Sat 22 Oct 2011 at 01:32 PM
Thimbles wrote: "I've never heard of this "employment tax" you speak of"
padikiller responds: That's probably because, like our President and Vice-President, you have never employed anyone.
I speak of EMPLOYMENT taxes. Payroll taxes are a subset of employment taxes.
http://www.irs.gov/businesses/small/article/0,,id=172179,00.html
#5 Posted by padikiller, CJR on Sat 22 Oct 2011 at 02:16 PM
Yes, but it's the PAYROLL taxes that burden the working poor to pay for their benefits when they retire. So be specific.
And can we talk about the problem facing retirees from the pension side, since social security has been discussed, fittingly, to death?
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204138204576605482876191482.html
"U.S. corporate pension plans now face a $388 billion gap based on a recent report from Credit Suisse. That's a bigger hole than they faced at the height of the financial crisis. Companies claim it's a result of the 2008-09 stock market crash, higher costs and an aging workforce.
Schultz claims that's bogus. "It didn't have to happen," she says, noting executive compensation has risen dramatically over the same time frame. "As they've cut other people's benefits with pensions being frozen, they have increased the benefits of the executives both pay and pensions."
Unfortunately, there isn't much the average employee can do because what the corporations have done is legal and abetted by loopholes in accounting regulations."
http://money.cnn.com/2009/05/12/news/economy/benner_pension.fortune/index.htm
"For years, states nationwide have shortchanged the retirement programs that cover teachers, police, and other public employees; now the stock market plunge has wiped out billions of dollars from already underfunded plans. California, New York and Illinois are among the states scrambling to plug multibillion-dollar holes in their pension systems. The growing obligations raise the specter of higher taxes, diminished services, or even another round of costly federal bailouts.
"States have long needed to reduce their unfunded liabilities, and widespread investment losses have made it even more necessary to put money in," says Lance Weiss, author of a 2006 Deloitte study of state pensions. "But the market crash also means there's less money available to use for contributions. Everything is coming together to create a crisis.""
So I got an idea to help all those retirees who can't get jobs other than those of walmart greeters, let's raise the retirement age, to screw the working poor who don't live as long, and cut the benefits, to screw the working people who couldn't afford to make pension/retirement plans or have watched those plans get eaten up by executive greed and tax cutting, gamble on high risk wallstreet investment, zealots. Old people don't gotta eat, really.
#6 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Sat 22 Oct 2011 at 03:39 PM
Thimbles wrote: Old people don't gotta eat, really.
padikiller responds: If you can't work and if you can't take care of yourself or if your family can't or won't take care of you, then government should do so. In an institution.
Otherwise get a damned job and take care of yourself.
NEWSFLASH: Nothing is safe. PERIOD.
Pensions aren't safe. Government benefits aren't safe. The world isn't safe.
No government can legislate safety in investments. It just isn't possible.
You want pensions funded? Then grow the economy.
When the commercial office buildings are full of tenants instead of empty office suites, they are worth more. Ergo, the pension funds that own these office buildings will be worth more. Apply the same reasoning to equities, bonds and other investments and the same outcome applies.
But what really pisses you guys off is inequality. The notion that Person A has more stuff than Person B drives you commies nuts. It doesn't matter if Person A is smarter, more industrious or more creative than Person B. In your commie worldview, everybody should have the same stuff. It's only fair.
The problem is... It doesn't work. When it has been attempted, the result has been oppression, genocide, starvation and abject failure. When you punish diligence, creativity, innovation and productivity, guess what? It DOESN'T WORK. Society fails. Communism can only exist at gunpoint.
You commies say "everyone is entitled to food". WHAT food? Rice? Or steak and lobster? Hint: The commie way is rice, until the inevitable famine comes, that is.
And "everyone is entitled to health care." What kind of health care? HINT: The commie way is crappy health care, unless your daddy is Party Chairman, in which case you get to go to Switzerland in his private jet for your PET scan.
#7 Posted by padikiller, CJR on Sat 22 Oct 2011 at 04:46 PM
"The commie way is crappy health care, unless your daddy is Party Chairman, in which case you get to go to Switzerland in his private jet for your PET scan."
Switzerland is where you pick for your ideal Hobbesian paradise? Where health care is mandated, subsidized, and heavily regulated so that insurance companies have to offer non-profit Basic insurance?
http://m.npr.org/story/92106731?storyId=92106731&from=mobile
As for the rest, it's best that you remember we're talking about old people and sick people. Civil societies make decisions removed from an economic calculus when it comes to those groups, because chances are eventually we will all be in one of those groups and the hope is we would take care of others in the same way we expect to be taken care of. Ygelasis put it right I think:
http://thinkprogress.org/yglesias/2011/02/25/200036/how-to-run-america-like-a-business-get-rid-of-all-the-old-people/
"A state is fundamentally an ethical enterprise aimed at promoting human welfare. A business isn’t like that. If you’re trying to look at America from a balance-sheet perspective the problem is very clear. It’s not “entitlements” and it’s not “Social Security” and it’s not “Medicare” and it’s not “health care costs” it’s the existence of old people...
bolstering the living standards of old people is an economically inefficient undertaking that we sentimental human beings find ethically appealing. That’s not to say that the spot on the continuum occupied by current policy is the best possible way to make the tradeoff. But it’s simply to dramatize the nature of calculus we’re talking about. As a “business strategy” it’s ridiculous—on a par with preserving the natural beauty of the Grand Canyon or having the military pay health care costs of soldiers who are too injured to fight—but that’s because it’s not a business strategy."
#8 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Sat 22 Oct 2011 at 09:26 PM
Commies always drag out the old people to elicit sympathy for the commie cause.
Well, the truth is that elderly people have a much higher average net worth and much lower poverty rates than younger people.
SOCIETY should take care of its elderly. The GOVERNMENT should not.
The only time the government should be caring for anyone is when they need to be institutionalized. PERIOD.
#9 Posted by padikiller, CJR on Sat 22 Oct 2011 at 11:53 PM
"Well, the truth is that elderly people have a much higher average net worth and much lower poverty rates than younger people."
Why is that?
#10 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Sun 23 Oct 2011 at 12:12 AM
Let's just nail down the Commie position, here.
When is comes to taxation, employment taxes are killing the "working poor" - they're getting screwed paying 6.7% of their wages (total) to the Treasury in Social Security and Medicare taxes. This is unjust, and the "rich" should pay more, even though the top 1% of income earners pay 38% of the federal income taxes. And we don't talking about the commie tax credits and exemptions that defray these minimal payroll taxes - the Earned Income Credit, the Making Work Pay credit, the Dependent Care Credit, etc. etc.
Furthermore, we don't talk about Social Security or Medicare benefits (which are doled out disproportionately to the low-income earners who pay the least into the system). We don't talk about these benefits in our discussion of taxation, despite the fact that low-income beneficiaries recoup many times the amount they paid in payroll taxes into the treasury in welfare checks paid out of the treasury.
See how it works? Money the "working poor" pay into the treasury matters, but money they receive from the treasury doesn't count when we're talking about the "unjust" taxation policy (even if it is calculated on their income tax returns).
So.. When we stop talking about taxation and turn our attention to Social Security benefits, we don't discuss the cost of these benefits to the same "working poor" we bewailed in our earlier discussion about taxes. These people suddenly don't matter any more. Time for them to get screwed.
If Grandma Moneybags (who never worked a day in her life yet receives social security from her late banker husband) has a mansion that's paid for on the fifth hole, a new Lincoln in the garage, and a trust fund to pay for her pool man... Time for the "working poor" to suck it up and work a little more so that their wages can give Grandma the COLA increase she deserves because it costs more to fill the tank in her Town Car.
And there's nothing unjust about it. according to the commies. It's only fair.
This the commie hypocrisy, plainly exposed.
#11 Posted by padikiller, CJR on Sun 23 Oct 2011 at 08:42 AM
One more time...
The elderly are R I C H E R than the young.
M U C H, M U C H R I C H E R.
Period.
Not just talking about income (much of it due to Social Security). Talking about net worth here. The mean family net worth of Americans (including one person "families") where the head of the household is over age 65 ($1,015,200) is MORE THAN NINE TIMES the mean family net worth of Americans where the head of the household is under the age of 35 ($106,000).
http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/2012/tables/12s0721.pdf
So... Why do (comparatively) rich Americans need COLA's financed by the "working poor"?
HUH?
And if elderly Americans are less likely to live in poverty than young Americans, then WHY should we tax young Americans to give COLA's to elderly Americans?
HUH?
#12 Posted by padikiller, CJR on Sun 23 Oct 2011 at 10:11 AM
So this is the padikiller/fascist paradise--throwing people into government-run instituitions in order to stimulate creativity.
#13 Posted by Bob Gardner, CJR on Sun 23 Oct 2011 at 12:18 PM
No...
I do not advocate "throwing" anyone into anything.
I advocate the government CARING for those who can't care for themselves and whose family can't (or won't) care for them.
In the ideal padikiller world, able-bodied people - those who are able to care for themselves (regardless of age, gender, race, creed, or anything else) - don't get government checks. PERIOD. In fact, NOBODY ever gets a check from the treasury, except as payment for the fair market value of goods or services provided to the government under authority of law. PERIOD.
Truly disabled people would be cared for (and supervised) in institutions staffed by government employees. Only the dangerous or criminals among these disabled people would be confined against their will - and these people would be placed in segregated and more secure facilities. The rest could take it, or leave it. Check into the poor house, or hit the streets. Their choice.
The Medicare/disability "group home" thing has become a federally subsidized way for crooks to abuse old people.
Look.. Paying to care for others with government money runs counter to my libertarian ways - but I have always conceded that the government has a duty to care for those who truly cannot care for themselves.
However, this care needs to be provided at government owned and operated facilities to be budgeted by and accounted for to Congress. This crappy boondoggle we have now - the one that pays millions to crooked orthodontists in Texas - or thousands to the scumbag who tortured disabled residents in Philadelphia - this crappy boondoggle needs to go.
Leaving Padikillerland, and remaining here in Realityland, however, where the government throws billions of dollars at people in myriad ways, richer old people (as noted above - NINE TIMES RICHER) mooch off of the payroll taxes paid by poorer young people.
WHY is this a good thing, Commies?
For every one "poor" old lady you guys can dust off to support your nonsenical nutsiness, there are nine "poorer" people paying for her COLA.
So WHY should the "working poor" be saddled with the cost of increasing benefits to people who are NINE TIMES RICHER THAN THEY ARE?
HUH?
#14 Posted by padikiller, CJR on Sun 23 Oct 2011 at 01:56 PM
First off, net worth does not equal income. It represents accumulated assets; things like a house, a 401k, and a car. Elderly people have had more time to build equity in these assets increasing their net worth, but still leaving them reliant on some form of income.
Second off, all things being unequal, these means and averages do not represent the majority due to the skewing effect of the very rich. The median is probably the best measure to use in this case.
Third off, did you notice the year of the report? (2007) Did you notice the trend at the bottom of the report from 1998 to 2007? Real estate and stock bubbles both blew up and popped over the last decade. What do you think the trend is now?
And do you care?
My hope is that other Americans care and that they stop supporting policies that help finance at the cost of wage earners out of a misguided belief that their interests are aligned due to their small pockets of assets. The reality after 2007 is that the con is over.
#15 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Sun 23 Oct 2011 at 10:49 PM
The data shows that the disparity in net worth between older and younger Americans has increased steadily over time.
There is no reason to suspect the "bubble" bursting hit older Americans harder than younger Americans - indeed the opposite is true - declining property values hit net worth harder when property is mortgaged - thus your argument is fallacious. Certainly, the disparity in net worth has increased in the last few years.
At any rate, bubble or no bubble, it is clear that older Americans are much, much, much wealthier on average than younger Americans. PERIOD.
Not only that, but they are also LESS LIKELY TO BE BELOW THE POVERTY LINE.
This is the R E A L I T Y.
So... WHY should the "working poor" pay for COLA increases for wealthier older Americans who are less likely to live in poverty than the "working poor"?
HUH?
#16 Posted by padikiller, CJR on Mon 24 Oct 2011 at 05:53 AM
Trudy Lieberman unfortunately assumes the Basic Lie of the whole campaign to kill Social Security:
"proposed changes in the way COLA is figured will save the government a wad of money..."
No. they won't save the government a dime.Social Security is paid for directly by the people who will get the benefits. Cutting the COLA will reduce benefits paid to retirees by reducing their ability to save enough for a basic retirement when they are young and working.
The government doesnot pay for Social Seurity. All it does is provide a way for workers to save and insure their own money, protected from inflation and market losses by pay as you go financing with wage indexing.
The actual cost of the "huge Social Security deficit"... NOT the "budget deficit" which Social Security has nothing to do with.... amounts to a need to raise the payroll tax of those who will get the benefits one half of one tenth of one percent per year... to pay for their own longer life expectancy and higher real value of benefits to keep pace with their own rising standard of living.
That's forty cents per week in today's terms.
#17 Posted by Dale Coberly, CJR on Mon 24 Oct 2011 at 11:15 AM
padikiller is too blinded, if not deranged, by his ideology to understand any of this or to even see the reality around him, but here are a few observations for the rest of us
Social Security is the workers own money, as "most economists" were eager to remind us when the stock market was high and it looked like "returns on investment" to Social Security were not "good enough"... never mind the risks.
There is an insurance transfer built into SS, but it isn't very large. Even the highest earning workers get back all of their SS contribution plus enough "interest" to cover inflation and the average growth in wages over the years.
able bodied, intelligent, and hard working people cannot always find jobs. the "safety net" allows them to live through hard times and then become good workers, consumers, and soldiers to keep the "capitalist" economy running much better than it did before the New Deal saved it from itself.
SS is you saving "enough" of your own money to guarantee you will have "enough" when you retire. Nothing stops you from "investing" the other ninety percent of your income any way you choose.
padikiller has been made rich by the New Deal but he thinks he did it all himself, and blinded by greed he just knows that if it weren't for the government he'd be even richer. pity about that Bill Gates and Warren Buffet and those guys who just couldn't make it in a country dragged down by the commie welfare state.
#18 Posted by dale Coberly, CJR on Mon 24 Oct 2011 at 11:27 AM
dale wrote: Social Security is the workers own money,
padikiller asks: Is it, Dale?
If it is, then we can't count the payroll tax as a "tax", can we? Instead, it is a "premium", or an "investment". In which case, the truth becomes that half of all American households pay no federal taxes at all, while the top 1% of income earners pay 38% of all federal taxes.
The 1% are paying more than a third of all the taxes paid, while 50% pay nothing. Nobody but a stone cold commie lunatic would view such a system as a fair one. If your goal is to squeeze even more out of the "rich", then your goal is futile - the American people won't buy a system that has more than half of the population in a dependent underclass.
dale continued: "Even the highest earning workers get back all of their SS contribution plus enough "interest" to cover inflation and the average growth in wages over the years."
padikiller responds: Wait a minute!... "Interest"? WHO pays this "interest"?
Well, the "working poor" pay it, through their unjust payroll taxes, if you swallow the standard commie line...
Which brings us back to Square One - WHY should the "working poor" pay "interest" to elderly retirees who are, on average, not only MUCH RICHER than the "working poor", but also MUCH LESS LIKELY TO BE BELOW THE POVERTY LINE?
HUH?
#19 Posted by padikiller, CJR on Mon 24 Oct 2011 at 01:13 PM
padikiller
Social Security is insurance. it is collected as a "tax" because that's the only way it can be made to work. most people would never understand or get around to saving their money through a government insurance plan.
it doesn't matter if the only people who pay "real" taxes are the people who have money. no doubt you'd rather be one of the lucky people with no money who don't pay taxes.
the interest on Social Security comes automatically from wage indexing in a growing economy. it is the same as interest from a bank account, only safer and insured against losses that a private company cannot insure against. no one loses by paying this interest... because they will get the same "interest" in their turn, from the same growing economy. if the whole economy ever fails to grow over a long period of time, then the "interest" won't be paid (except for the inflation part), but then you are going to need your insured savings more than ever, because your private investments will be doing even worse.
the elderly used to be much poorer than "the working poor." that's why Social Security had to be invented. and "average" is not very helpful if you happen to be one of those doing worse than average. which turns out to be most people,
the workers pay for their own SS benefits. the people who get SS benefits paid for them. what you think to the contrary is due to a campaign of lies that has been running in fairly high gear for about thirty years. lies that play on the ignorance of the people who listen to them.
#20 Posted by coberly, CJR on Mon 24 Oct 2011 at 02:12 PM
As I said earlier, the net worth figures sited were inflated by stock and real estate assets that are:
A) not worth as much as they used to be, due to the scumbags Padi pals around with.
B) are not producing income. A person can have a high net worth that's illiquid because she's living there. You might enjoy telling her, "you can't keep your house because Padi has caught a sudden "I care about the poor" fever (don't worry, it only lasts a few hours) and doesn't want to do something like raise the payroll tax ceiling after the social security surplus paid for tax cuts for HIS class. He wants to "defend the working poor" now that the program needs to draw down its surplus and therefore cause increased borrowing or the revoking of unaffordable tax cuts for his class. You see, paidkiller wants to sell your house, cut your benefits, and raise the retirement age because he cares about the poor. Apparently there isn't enough of them." I wouldn't enjoy that, but that's me. I'm not a greedy sociopath like paidi and his buds.
C) They have a high net worth that's recently deflated and illiquid but no income. Good thing elderly people don't get sick, otherwise they'd need drugs and products to... Oh wait. They do have those expenses. Many of them are barely scraping by because the sucky expensive American Health care system is bleeding them and their investments dry.
This net worth crap you're pushing involves forcing seniors to sell their houses in a depressed market so they can afford the inflated American drug prices for their homeless carcasses. And why?
so paidkiller and his buds can keep their tax cutsbecause Padi cares about the working poor.Meanwhile, to put a human face on the recent COLA increase:
http://m.vcstar.com/news/2011/oct/23/a-small-raise-can-be-big-for-those-dependent-on/
#21 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Mon 24 Oct 2011 at 02:32 PM
coberly wrote: the interest on Social Security comes automatically from wage indexing in a growing economy.
padikiller: I see... The "Indexing Fairy" sprinkles money on people.
Er... No.
The "interest" comes from wages earned by those who pay taxes. These wages are withheld from paychecks, deposited into Social Security's operating account and exchanged for an unsecured IOU from Congress. Congress takes the money and places it into the general fund of the treasury, where it is indistinguishable from other revenue, and then spends it on drones and Obama's Canadian buses (as wail as bailing out banks and paying crooked doctors in Texas).
#22 Posted by padikiller, CJR on Mon 24 Oct 2011 at 03:45 PM
Look at you guys dancing around a simple question!
WHY should the "working poor" that you guys claim are overburdened with payroll taxes, be paying for COLA increases for elderly Americans who, on average, are MUCH, MUCH, MUCH wealthier than the "working poor" and who, on average, are MUCH, MUCH, MUCH less like to be below the poverty line than the "working poor"?
HUH?
Let's look at a hypothetical example, shall we?
A working mother of three making $30,000 a year cleaning toilets pays $2025 in payroll taxes, while a lady who never worked a day in her life - a lady who lives in a $5 million house and who has a trust fund that pays her $1 million a year - gets a COLA increase on her dead husband's $2200 per month Social Security benefit.
You guys square this with your commie ideals, OK?
Because my example is closer to the average situation than the sad cases the commies drag out about old ladies eating cat food and such.
#23 Posted by padikiller, CJR on Mon 24 Oct 2011 at 03:55 PM
"Because my example is closer to the average situation than the sad cases the commies drag out about old ladies eating cat food and such."
You're getting ridiculous.
And as for the common situation of the old lady getting millions in trust funds and OASI payments, if she or her husband paid into the program and contributed to the 2 trillion dollar surplus over their working lives, then she is entitled to that money.
As is the working mother of three making $30,000 a year. So long as the surplus, which you conservatives under Reagan and Greenspan built up, exists - where is the problem?
#24 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Tue 25 Oct 2011 at 12:00 PM
Thimbles wrote: if she or her husband paid into the program and contributed to the 2 trillion dollar surplus over their working lives, then she is entitled to that money.
padikiller responds: Just to make absolutely clear... You claim that people are entitled to benefits based on the amounts they contribute, right?
Is that where you are?
And the more common situation is a 75 year-old widow who lives in $250,000 house that's paid for, has $800,000 in bank and brokerage accounts, gets a $1500 pension from her late husband's union plan, plus $1800 a month in Social Security survivor's benefit.
And you're telling me that this woman, who never worked a day in her life, is entitled to a COLA paid for by the cleaning lady who cleans her toilets once a week for minimum wage? For real?
Commie justice is a peculiar thing to behold.
#25 Posted by padikiller, CJR on Tue 25 Oct 2011 at 12:14 PM
Dude, you're the one being the commie. You want to take an insurance program and convert it into welfare.
http://www.cjr.org/campaign_desk/social_security_in_perspective_part_iii.php?page=all
"WG: Social Security is by far the government’s most popular program precisely because it is universal. Everyone pays in; everyone is protected against catastrophe. The danger in means testing is that it really may turn Social Security into a welfare program—alms for the poor—and eventually doom it by destroying the broad political support it enjoys. That’s another aspect for debate the media has glossed over."
And a common situation usually affects the majority:
http://www.ssa.gov/policy/docs/chartbooks/income_aged/2008/iac08.html
People with asset income? 54.4%
People with retirement income? 40.7%
(and we can assume there's a lot of overlap between those groups, so that the percent of people with neither is going to be more than 100 - (54.4 + 40.7))
People for whom social security is more than half their income? 63.9%
People for whom social security is more than 90% of their income? 34.2%
The lowest quintile rely on social security for 83.2% of their income. The highest rely on it for 17.9%.
Your average case has a 75 year old widow getting income from $800,000 in deposits and brokerage (I assume this widow never had kids in order to accumulate $800,000). Let's guess she's making 1% interest on her $800,000. That works out to $666 per month + $1500 from pension + $1800 SSI. Total? About $4000. SSI percent? 1800/4000 = 45.3%
Reminder, 63.9% depend on SSI for 50% of income or more. Your hypothetical widow is a 70+ percent member. Not representative.
Maybe the world you hail from has gold plated ghettos and old widows with $250,000 houses (approx $312 dollars a month property taxes), no medical expenses, $800,000 earning probably more than 1%, and a $1500 a month pension, but, away from padi-world, things are different.
And since you care about the 34.2% elderly poor, you wouldn't want to take away from their program that supplies them with 90+% of their income, right?
Of course you would.
#26 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Tue 25 Oct 2011 at 03:22 PM
It was a "yes" or "no" question, Thimbles.
The answer is "yes" - you do expect the cleaning lady making minimum wage to pay for the COLA increase for the wealthy widow who never worked a day in her life.
Everybody's entitled to his opinion, I suppose, but you commies sure are hard to follow sometimes.
#27 Posted by padikiller, CJR on Tue 25 Oct 2011 at 07:03 PM
Yes, I believe the husband's contributions to the 2 trillion dollar surplus should be used to support his wife and I believe the cleaning lady's minimum wage contributions should be used to support her during her old age/disability. And I believe both should receive COLA adjustments to make sure the SSI is sufficient for the 63.9% who depend on it for most of their income.
Simple enough?
#28 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Wed 26 Oct 2011 at 12:41 AM
It can't seriously be claimed that rack of filing cabinets in an office building loaded with $2.5 trillion in non-negotiable, non-transferable, unsecured IOU's represents any sort of "surplus", when the money used to purchase these IOU's has been spent on starting wars, bailing out Wall Street, expanding wiretapping and rendention programs and on Michelle Obama's first-class jetsetting,
But the advocacy for robbing from the poor to pay COLA's for the rich is an interesting argument, though one with which I strongly disagree.
#29 Posted by padikiller, CJR on Wed 26 Oct 2011 at 07:34 AM