The small makeup room off the main floor of KUSI’s studios, in a suburban canyon on the north end of San Diego, has seen better days. The carpet is stained; the couch sags. John Coleman, KUSI’s weatherman, pulls off the brown sweatshirt he has been wearing over his shirt and tie all day and appraises himself in the mirror, smoothing back his white hair and opening a makeup kit. “I kid that I have to use a trowel, to fill the crevasses of age,” he says, swiping powder under one eye and then the other. “People have tried to convince me to use more advanced makeup, but I don’t. I don’t try to fool anyone.”
Coleman is seventy-five years old, and looks it, which is refreshing in the Dorian Gray-like environs of television news. He refers to his position at KUSI, a modestly eccentric independent station in San Diego whose evening newscast usually runs fifth out of five in the local market, as his retirement job. When he steps in front of the green screen, it’s clear why he has chosen it over actual retirement; in front of the camera he moves, if not quite like a man half his age, then at least like a man three quarters of it. His eyes light up, and the slight stoop with which he otherwise carries himself disappears. His rumble of a voice evens out into a theatrical baritone, full of the practiced jocularity of someone who has spent all but the first nineteen years of his life on TV.
By his own rough estimate, John Coleman has performed more than a quarter million weathercasts. It is not a stretch to say that he is largely responsible for the shape of the modern weather report. As the first weatherman on ABC’s Good Morning America in the late 1970s and early ’80s, Coleman pioneered the use of the onscreen satellite technology and computer graphics that are now standard nearly everywhere. In 1982, chafing at the limitations of his daily slot on GMA, Coleman used his spare time—and media mogul Frank Batten’s money—to launch The Weather Channel. The idea seemed quixotic then, and his tenure as president ended a year later after an acrimonious split with Batten. But time proved Coleman to be something of a genius—the channel was turning a profit within four years, and by the time NBC-Universal bought it in 2008 it had 85 million viewers and a $3.5 billion price tag.
Those were the first two acts of Coleman’s career. On a Sunday night in early November 2007, Coleman sat down at his home computer and started to write the 967 words that would launch the third. “It is the greatest scam in history,” he began. “I am amazed, appalled and highly offended by it. Global Warming: It is a SCAM.”
What had set him off was a football game. The Eagles were playing the Cowboys in Philadelphia on Sunday Night Football, and as a gesture of environmental awareness—it was “Green is Universal” week at NBC-Universal—the studio lights were cut for portions of the pre-game and half-time shows. Coleman, who had been growing increasingly skeptical about global warming for more than a decade, finally snapped. “I couldn’t take it anymore,” he told me. “I did a Howard Beale.”
Skepticism is, of course, the core value of scientific inquiry. But the essay that Coleman published that week, on the Web site ICECAP, would have more properly been termed rejectionism. Coleman wasn’t arguing against the integrity of a particular conclusion based on careful original research—something that would have constituted useful scientific skepticism. Instead, he went after the motives of the scientists themselves. Climate researchers, he wrote, “look askance at the rest of us, certain of their superiority. They respect government and disrespect business, particularly big business. They are environmentalists above all else.”
The Drudge Report picked up Coleman’s essay, and within days its author was a cause célèbre on right-wing talk radio and cable television, beaming into Glenn Beck’s TV show via satellite from the KUSI studios to elaborate on the scientists’ conspiracy. “They all have an agenda,” Coleman told Beck, “an environmental and political agenda that said, ‘Let’s pile on here, we’re all going to make a lot of money, we’re going to get research grants, we’re going to get awards, we’re going to become famous.’”
Along with the appearances on Beck’s and Rush Limbaugh’s programs came speaking offers, and soon Coleman was on the conference circuit, a newly minted member of the loose-knit confederation of professional skeptics. (Coleman insists his views on climate change are apolitical, and says he has turned down offers to speak at Tea Parties and other conservative events.) His interviews and speeches that have been posted to YouTube have, in some cases, been viewed hundreds of thousands of times.
None of it would have had much of an impact, but for Coleman’s résumé. For the many Americans who don’t understand the difference between weather—the short-term behavior of the atmosphere—and climate—the broader system in which weather happens—Coleman’s professional background made him a genuine authority on global warming. It was an impression that Coleman encouraged. Global warming “is not something you ‘believe in,’” he wrote in his essay. “It is science; the science of meteorology. This is my field of life-long expertise.”
Except that it wasn’t. Coleman had spent half a century in the trenches of TV weathercasting; he had once been an accredited meteorologist, and remained a virtuoso forecaster. But his work was more a highly technical art than a science. His degree, received fifty years earlier at the University of Illinois, was in journalism. And then there was the fact that the research that Coleman was rejecting wasn’t “the science of meteorology” at all—it was the science of climatology, a field in which Coleman had spent no time whatsoever.
Coleman’s crusade caught the eye of Kris Wilson, an Emory University journalism lecturer and a former TV news director and weatherman himself, and Wilson got to wondering. He surveyed a group of TV meteorologists, asking them to respond to Coleman’s claim that global warming was a scam. The responses stunned him. Twenty-nine percent of the 121 meteorologists who replied agreed with Coleman—not that global warming was unproven, or unlikely, but that it was a scam.* Just 24 percent of them believed that humans were responsible for most of the change in climate over the past half century—half were sure this wasn’t true, and another quarter were “neutral” on the issue. “I think it scares and disturbs a lot of people in the science community,” Wilson told me recently. This was the most important scientific question of the twenty-first century thus far, and a matter on which more than eight out of ten climate researchers were thoroughly convinced. And three quarters of the TV meteorologists Wilson surveyed believe the climatologists were wrong.
In fact, anecdotal evidence of this disconnect had been accruing for several years. When a freakish snowstorm hit Las Vegas in December 2008, CNN meteorologist Chad Myers, appearing on Lou Dobbs Tonight, used the occasion to expound on his own doubts about global warming. “You know, to think that we could affect weather all that much is pretty arrogant,” he told Dobbs. “Mother Nature is so big, the world is so big, the oceans are so big.” Today’s most oft-quoted and influential skeptics include Joseph D’Aleo, The Weather Channel’s first director of meteorology, and Anthony Watts, a former Chico, California, TV meteorologist and prolific blogger who is leading a volunteer effort to document irregularities among the twelve hundred weather stations the National Weather Service maintains across the country (a concern that the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration considers negligible, and in any case has factored into its calculations since the ’90s). When Oklahoma Senator James Inhofe, Congress’s most reliable opponent of climate-change legislation, presented a list of more than four hundred “science authorities” who disagreed with the prevailing scientific opinion on climate change in 2008, forty-four of them were TV weathercasters. And after the signature of Mike Fairbourne, the weatherman for Minneapolis’s CBS affiliate, turned up on a similar petition that year, reporters for the Minneapolis Star Tribune called around and found that hardly any of the city’s TV weathercasters believed in climate change; one had recently called the idea “crazy” on a local talk-radio show.
More striking is the fact that the weathercasters became outspoken in their rejection of climate science right around the time the rest of the media began to abandon the on-the-one-hand, on-the-other-hand approach that had dominated their coverage of the issue for years, and started to acknowledge that the preponderance of evidence lay with those who believed climate change was both real and man-made. If anything, that shift radicalized the weathermen. “I think the media is almost sleeping with the enemy,” one meteorologist told me. “The way it is now, there is just such a bias as to what gets out.”
Free-market think tanks like the Heartland Institute, knowing an opportunity when they see one, now woo weathercasters with invitations to skeptics’ conferences. The National Science Foundation and the Congress-funded National Environmental Education Foundation, meanwhile, are pouring money into efforts to figure out where exactly the climate scientists lost the meteorologists, and how to win them back. The American Meteorological Society (AMS)—which formally endorsed the scientific consensus on climate change years ago, but counts many of the skeptics among its members, to its chagrin—has started including climate-change workshops for weathercasters in its conferences. For all of their differing agendas, the outfits have one thing in common: they have all realized that, however improbably, the future of climate-change policy in the United States rests to a not-insubstantial degree on the well-tailored shoulders of the local weatherman.
In the fall of 2008, researchers from George Mason and Yale universities conducted the most fine-grained survey to date about what Americans know and think about climate change. The short answer, unsurprisingly, was not very much. “Climate change is an incredibly complicated subject,” says Anthony Leiserowitz, director of the Yale Project on Climate Change and one of the study’s co-authors. “Most people are not interested in digging through the scientific literature, and in that situation trust becomes an enormous factor. We rely on people and organizations to guide us through this incredibly complicated and risky landscape.”
That was where the survey’s findings got interesting. When asked whom they trusted for information about global warming, 66 percent of the respondents named television weather reporters. That was well above what the media as a whole got, and higher than the percentage who trusted Vice-President-turned-climate-activist Al Gore, either of the 2008 presidential nominees, religious leaders, or corporations. Scientists commanded greater credibility, but only 18 percent of Americans actually know one personally; 99 percent, by contrast, own a television. “Meteorology benefits from the fact that we’re just about the only science that has an individual in people’s living rooms every night,” says Keith Seitter, the executive director of the American Meteorological Society. “For many people, it’s the only scientist whose name they know.”
There is one little problem with this: most weathercasters are not really scientists. When Wilson surveyed a broader pool of weathercasters in an earlier study, barely half of them had a college degree in meteorology or another atmospheric science. Only 17 percent had received a graduate degree, effectively a prerequisite for an academic researcher in any scientific field.
This case of mistaken identity has been a source of tension throughout television’s sixty-odd-year history. When TVs began to proliferate in postwar American households, the first generation of weathercasters that viewers saw on them was mostly military men, recently discharged World War II veterans who had trained in meteorology in the Navy and the Army Air Corps. (Louis Allen, Washington, D.C.’s first TV weatherman, had drawn up the forecasts for the invasions of Iwo Jima and Okinawa.) But as broadcasting licenses multiplied and stations began to compete with each other in the ’50s, meteorologist Robert Henson recounts in Weather on the Air: A History of Broadcast Meteorology (to be published this year), the Army men gave way to entertainers: scantily clad “weather girls” abounded, as did puppets, including one who divined the forecast with his handlebar mustache. A weatherman in Nashville read his forecast in verse. One New York station featured a “weather lion.”
After a few years of this sort of thing, the American Meteorological Society decided to step in; the professional association’s membership, then comprised mostly of government and academic meteorologists, had grown wary of what the weather girls were doing to their reputation. The society devised a voluntary meteorological certification system, a seal of approval that TV weathercasters could obtain with the right academic background—at least a bachelor’s degree in meteorology—or demonstrated knowledge in the field. (This seal is what technically distinguishes a meteorologist from a weathercaster.) In a 1955 TV Guide article entitled “Weather is No Laughing Matter,” AMS member Francis Davis wrote that “If TV weathermen are going to pose as experts, we feel they should be experts.”
Although it took years, Davis’s view eventually won out. By the end of the ’70s, weathercasters had begun to treat their responsibilities with some seriousness. They started to see themselves as everyman (they were still mostly men) scientists, authority figures who helped viewers not only anticipate once-unpredictable events, but also comprehend them. And when you think about it, the achievement weathercasters have pulled off as science educators is remarkable—ask anyone with a television to name some meteorological terms, and odds are they will be able to rattle off half a dozen: low pressure systems, wind shear, cumulonimbus clouds. Weathercasters are usually a sort of science ambassador to their communities as well, and spend as much time talking to elementary school classes and civic groups about science as they do forecasting on the air. The work hasn’t gone unappreciated; heaps of audience research have identified the weather report as the most popular segment of the local news broadcast, and the biggest factor in viewers’ choice of which newscast to watch. Even as Americans’ trust in the media as a whole has cratered, love for the weatherman has persisted at levels unchanged since Walter Cronkite’s day.
The Clinton administration had all of this in mind in October 1997, when it gathered meteorologists from dozens of the nation’s biggest television markets at the White House for a special summit on climate change. In two months, negotiators would be meeting in Kyoto to renegotiate the United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change, the talks that would ultimately produce the Kyoto Protocol. Americans were still largely uninformed about climate change, and the White House was hoping the weathercasters could help bring them up to speed. More than one hundred of them showed up to hear speeches from Gore—an early version of the slideshow later documented in An Inconvenient Truth—and President Bill Clinton, as well as leading NOAA climate researchers.
As the administration had hoped, the meteorologists used the occasion to opine about climate change—but what many of them said wasn’t quite what Al Gore had in mind. “There’s still a significant segment of the scientific community that’s not sold on this,” Harvey Leonard, then the weatherman at WHDH in Boston, told The Washington Post. Others loudly refused to attend the summit, including all but one of the weathercasters in the Oklahoma City market. “I’m not smart enough to know [if the earth is warming], and I don’t think any person on the planet is,” KOKH meteorologist Tim Ross told the Daily Oklahoman. The following month, twenty TV weather personalities added their names to the Leipzig Declaration, a petition opposing the global warming theory.
It was only a blip on the radar, but it presaged the broader rejection of climate science that would come a decade later. The question was, why? No doubt, some of the blame belonged to the White House. In positioning themselves as advocates for not only a policy position but also a scientific one, Clinton and Gore had conflated the political question of what to do about climate change—one that was, and remains, deeply partisan in the U.S.—with the apolitical question of whether it was happening. This put the weathermen in a tricky spot—embracing what was, even then, the majority position in the scientific community would make them look like shills for the administration. “Since the White House is behind it, it’s political,” Leonard told the Post. “I’m not a lap dog,” Gary England of KWTV in Oklahoma City—now a prominent climate skeptic—told the Daily Oklahoman. “I think Al Gore’s motives were pretty good—he saw early on the potential that these people had,” Kris Wilson says. “But he was probably the wrong spokesman. As journalists, we’re taught to be skeptical, right? We’re taught that if your mother says she loves you, get a second source.”
But the disagreement, then as now, also came down to the weathercasters themselves, and what they knew—or believed they knew. Meteorology has a deceptively close relationship with climatology: both disciplines study the same general subject, the behavior of the atmosphere, but they ask very different questions about it. Meteorologists live in the short term, the day-to-day forecast. It’s an incredibly hard thing to predict accurately, even with the best models and data; tiny discrepancies matter enormously, and can pile up quickly into giant errors. Given this level of uncertainty in their own work, meteorologist looking at long-range climate questions are predisposed to see a system doomed to terminal unpredictability. But in fact, the basic question of whether rising greenhouse gas emissions will lead to climate change hinges on mostly simple, and predictable, matters of physics. The short-term variations that throw the weathercasters’ forecasts out of whack barely register at all.
This is the one explanation that everyone who has mulled the question seems to agree on—and indeed, when I spoke with meteorologists who were skeptical of or uncertain about the scientific consensus, it was the one thing they all brought up. “Meteorologists know our models,” Brian Neudorff, a meteorologist at WROC in Rochester, New York, told me. “There’s a lot of error and bias. We’ll use five different models and come back with five different things. So when we hear that climatological models are saying this, how accurate are they?”
But that hardly explains why so many meteorologists have disregarded the mountain of evidence of global warming that has already occurred—or why, in the case of the hard-line skeptics, they are so fixated on proving a few data sets’ worth of tree-ring and ice core measurements wrong. “I think a lot of people have theories,” Robert Henson says, “but nobody knows for sure.”
In the absence of a clear answer, several institutions—the National Environmental Education Foundation (NEEF), the Yale Forum on Climate Change & the Media, and the University Corporation for Atmospheric Research among them—have decided that education is the problem, and have launched projects aimed at teaching the weathercasters the basics of climatology. All proceed from the assumption that unreachable skeptics like Coleman are few and far between, and that most meteorologists are more uncertain than adamant, lost amid the Internet’s slurry of fact and counterfact. “While there is a group that seems to have made up their mind about climate change, there’s still a substantial portion that’s interested in learning more,” says Sara Espinoza, a program director at NEET. The AMS—which finds its credibility threatened by its televised emissaries a second time—is working with NEEF on a do-it-yourself climate science education package for meteorologists that points them to government data and peer-reviewed research. It is part of the AMS’s broader “station scientist” program, which aims to give meteorologists the tools they need to become the go-to authorities in their newsrooms on all scientific subjects, not just the weather. In essence, it is a doubling down on the wager that the AMS made fifty-five years ago: if viewers are going to assume weathercasters are experts anyway, we might as well try to make them experts.
It remains a laudable goal. But in my own conversations with skeptical meteorologists, I began to think that that earlier effort had helped create the problem in the first place. The AMS had succeeded in making many weathercasters into responsible authorities in their own wheelhouse, but somewhere along the way that narrow professional authority had been misconstrued as a sort of all-purpose scientific legitimacy. It had bolstered meteorologists’ sense of their expertise outside of their own discipline, without necessarily improving the expertise itself. Most scientists are loath to speak to subjects outside of their own field, and with good reason—you wouldn’t expect a dentist to know much about, say, the geological strata of the Grand Canyon. But meteorologists, by virtue of typically being the only people with any science background at their stations, are under the opposite pressure—to be conversant in anything and everything scientific. This is a good thing if you see yourself as a science communicator, someone who sifts the good information from the bad—but it becomes a problem when you start to see scientific authority springing from your own haphazardly informed intuition, as many of the skeptic weathercasters do. Among the certified meteorologists Wilson surveyed in 2008, 79 percent considered it appropriate to educate their communities about climate change. Few of them, however, had taken the steps necessary to fully educate themselves about it. When asked which source of information on climate change they most trusted, 22 percent named the AMS. But the next most popular answer, with 16 percent, was “no one.” The third was “myself.”
The biggest difference I noticed between the meteorologists who rejected climate science and those who didn’t was not how much they knew about the subject, but how much they knew about how much they knew—how clearly they recognized the limits of their own training. Among those in the former category was Bob Breck, the AMS-certified chief meteorologist at Fox affiliate WVUE in New Orleans and a thirty-two-year veteran of the business. Breck rejected the notion of human-driven climate change wholesale—“I just find that [idea] to be quite arrogant,” he told me. Instead, when Breck talked to local schools and Rotaries and Kiwanis clubs about climate change, he presented his own ideas: warming trends were far more dependent on the water vapor in the atmosphere than carbon dioxide, he told them, and the appearance of an uptick in global temperatures was the result of the declining number of weather stations in cold rural areas.
These theories were not only contradictory of each other, but had also been considered and rejected by climate researchers years ago. But Breck didn’t read much climate research; “the technical journals are controlled by the professors who run the various societies,” he told me, and those professors were hopelessly dependent on the “gravy train of grants from the NSF” that required them to propagate “alarmist theories.” When I mentioned the AMS, Breck bristled. “I don’t need the AMS seal—which I have,” he said. “I don’t need their endorsements. The only endorsements I need are my viewers, and they like what I do.”
As Breck went on, I began to get a sense of the enormity of the challenge at hand. Convincing someone he is an expert is one thing. Actually making him one—well, that is another thing entirely.
*Correction: The article originally stated that 29 percent of survey respondents agreed with the statement that gobal warming was “the greatest scam in history.” It has been changed to reflect the fact that the statement they agreed with was: “global warming is a scam.” We regret the error.


This is the Columbia Journalism Review for god's sake.
Learn the difference between 'titled' and 'entitled.'
Posted by Jim Hilley on Thu 7 Jan 2010 at 02:14 PM
Some things should be taken by faith. Matters of science should not be. Gravity is a certainty, but other matters such as global warming and evolution are theories for which a goodly deal of evidence may exist but not such certainty as to warrant that scientists embrace creeds about them. Is CJR or its writer giving imprimaturs or nihil obstats about what constitutes a scientific expert? I suggest that years of exposure to a given field may make one an expert even if there isn't a college degree that goes with that expertise. The late Walter Cronkite's expertise in covering space flight comes to mind.
Posted by Patrick Cloonan on Thu 7 Jan 2010 at 02:23 PM
You were so close to pinning down the real issue here and explaining the contrarian nature of the meteorology community and climatologists and the legitimacy of their concerns.
Mathematical models are models, whether they are forecasting short term phenomenon or long term phenomenon. It doesn’t matter if you are modeling long term climate change, short term weather systems, flow around a heat exchanger, chemical interactions inside a catalyzed petroleum cracking unit, velocity of a coal particle in a furnace or any of the thousands of applications that computer modeling of dynamic physical systems is used for. The longer out into the future a time dependant model looks, the less accurate it is because errors from one iterations carryover to the next iterations, and there are always errors. The accuracy of any model is based on two things: the soundness of the code and the quality of the inputs. Weather forecasting software has the benefit of highly accurate data from dozens of sources and a code that is constantly revised based on known deviations from previous models. Even with this (good date, lots of real world feedback) models fail regularly and meteorologists rely on a great deal of interpretive work and forecasting intuition to predict the weather.
This explains why meteorologists (and engineers I might add) are so skeptical of climatologists. We use mathematical models on a daily basis and see firsthand what the real world limitations are. Climatologists don’t.
Climatologists lack those two key fundamentals of good modeling and they are trying to predict deviations in multi-thousand year climactic cycles caused by CO2 and other GHG’s. Their inputs are based (with the exception of the past 150 years) primarily on proxy data of unknown accuracy. And since the models look at time spans of tens or hundreds of years, they get very little real work feedback to compare their results to.
Based on the limitations of these models, how the hell can any one say that they are 90% certain that the earth will warm 3.2degress Celsius by 2100? What the hell could they possibly base that level of certainly on? For example, out of the dozens of feedback loops so critical to the accuracy of climate models, only a small portion of them can be directly measured. This means that these feedback loops, essential to the completeness of the model, cannot be independently verified and errors in them propagate with an unknown level of bias throughout the entire model. Right there climatologists have introduces dozens of errors into their models, and what compounds this, is that they cannot quantify those errors with any degree of accuracy.
You should sit down sometime and talk with people who use these tools on a daily basis (as well as the people at places like ANSYS, Inc who work on code) to get a better understanding on what’s wrong with them.
Posted by Mike H on Thu 7 Jan 2010 at 02:41 PM
Shorter answer: Because they are not scientists.
Longer, somewhat snarkier answer: Because they're not scientists; they're TV personalities.
Posted by Robert S. on Thu 7 Jan 2010 at 03:21 PM
Pace Mr. Cloonan, but Walter Cronkite would have been the first to challenge your well-intended contention that his passion for -- and knowledgeabilty about -- manned spaceflight would have qualified him to discourse on astronautics at the scientific level. Walter was a journalist who boned up on his subject to an exceptional degree before he reported on it, consequently earning the enduring trust of his audience.
This all goes to support the point that the writer is making about presenting objective peer-reviewed evidence vs rendering an opinion. I spent a decade as a production executive at CBS News, but I would never refer to myself as a journalist; yet I do comment regularly on the craft because that associative experience has made me more newsmedia savvy than my average reader. But for me to attempt to write a "scientific" disertation on the subject would be a reach far too far.
Posted by Art Kane on Thu 7 Jan 2010 at 04:50 PM
"By his own rough estimate, John Coleman has performed more than a quarter million weathercasts."
How is that even possible?
He would have to be doing at least 10 broadcasts a day, everyday for more than 50 years.
Posted by Chris W. on Thu 7 Jan 2010 at 04:56 PM
Mr. Homans: What is Al Gore's degree in? What about Leonardo DiCaprio?
Posted by Jim S. on Thu 7 Jan 2010 at 06:54 PM
Even without picking on first commenter Jim Hilley for failing to capitalise God, his philistinism shines through.
'Entitled' has a variety of meanings, the oldest of which is 'to give something a title'. Only from being given the title were other accoutrements awarded by right (entitlements) that now give the modern commonest sense. The prefix "en-" refers to the act of bestowing: thus can nouns be 'enfranchised' or 'enabled' as well as 'entitled' (given the vote, means or title respectively).
Whilst I tend to reserve the longer 'entitled' for the act of a monarch ennobling a Duke or Earl or similar ('granting them a title') there is nothing wrong with using it to refer to the state of being of a book or article that was 'given its title' by its author.
For those who like to read beyond the AP stylebook - that miserable little volume - one might begin with some Geoffrey Chaucer (at least the first fragment is translated by him) from a little work entitled 'The Romaunt of the Rose', Fragment C, lines 7105-7107:
"Entitled was in such manere
This book, of which I telle heere.
Ther nas no wight in all Parys"
There was nothing wrong with the CJR's use of the word 'entitled' in this piece, save that it was perhaps a little grand for a description of an article in a 1955 edition of 'TV Guide', but that's just snobbery on my part.
Posted by Greg C on Thu 7 Jan 2010 at 07:47 PM
"But that hardly explains why so many meteorologists have disregarded the mountain of evidence of global warming that has already occurred—or why, in the case of the hard-line skeptics, they are so fixated on proving a few data sets’ worth of tree-ring and ice core measurements wrong."
Charles Homans needs to get a clue about the difference between "warming" and man-made warming. Then he might actually be intellectually ready to understand why the tree-ring data are important.
But actually taking skeptical arguments seriously might make Homans persona non grata with his left-wing employers at Washington Monthly. Safer to stick with the politically correct message while presenting an facade of objectivity.
Posted by Bradley J. Fikes on Thu 7 Jan 2010 at 10:34 PM
Well Greg, they don't have much go on to begin with and then even that nit is wrong. That's a skeptic trend all across the Web. That Nawlin's weather droid is scary. In the end this all about their politics. If the weathercasters are Republicans, they won't buy global warming. Hard political ideology removes the need for critical though. After all, you have a platform to rely on. Who needs facts?
Posted by Mark York on Thu 7 Jan 2010 at 10:37 PM
No Bradley, the so-called skeptical arguments are false and easily proven so. NASA and every scientific organization in the world has done it over and over. Here's a newsflash from a journalist with science training and a long history working in a scientific field: to be taken seriously you have actually have a legitimate argument. Get one and report back sans the cry me a river discrimination meme. That's a just a lame special pleading you aren't entitled to.
Posted by Mark York on Thu 7 Jan 2010 at 10:44 PM
Mark,
Your science training could use a refresher course -- the burden of proof is on those who propose a theory.
And in the wake of Climategate, this "trust me, we're scientists" act has grown stale. What do you think of Michael Mann hiding his "dirty laundry"? Does that make him the kind of climate scientist we should trust?
But since you say the skeptical arguments are so easily disproven, what about the fact that CO2 levels have historically increased only after hundreds of years of warming? Where is your proof that CO2 has anything to do with that warming?
Posted by Bradley J. Fikes on Thu 7 Jan 2010 at 10:50 PM
If you have any doublts about Global Cooling, look outside. You don't have to be a scientist to realize they are scammers.
Posted by Mr. Crowley on Fri 8 Jan 2010 at 04:55 AM
Here's something for the "skeptics" (I've yet to encounter a genuine one in the wild - all of them are either a) religiously anti-left b) armchair amateurs with megalomania c) otherwise politically or emotionally biased) to look at - a skeptical account of the invented "Climategate" outrage.
http://factcheck.org/2009/12/climategate/
"The messages, which span 13 years, show a few scientists in a bad light, being rude or dismissive. An investigation is underway, but there’s still plenty of evidence that the earth is getting warmer and that humans are largely responsible.
Some critics say the e-mails negate the conclusions of a 2007 report by the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, but the IPCC report relied on data from a large number of sources, of which CRU was only one.
E-mails being cited as "smoking guns" have been misrepresented. For instance, one e-mail that refers to "hiding the decline" isn’t talking about a decline in actual temperatures as measured at weather stations. These have continued to rise, and 2009 may turn out to be the fifth warmest year ever recorded. The "decline" actually refers to a problem with recent data from tree rings."
In short - touting "Climategate" as a blot on the work of ALL climate scientists the world over is like waving a hot summer as proof of AGW - it's a sign of STUPIDITY and a LACK of skeptical faculties.
The people who desperately try to use "Climategate" as something more than an anecdote are knowingly dishonest, show no good faith, and are obviously more stupid than the people they try to besmirch. Skeptics, they are not.
Applying skepticism to science is like moisturizing water, so the "skeptics" apparently don't even understand the semantics involved. It's either good science (which by definition must be skeptical) or it is not good science. Well, the science so far is good and I still see no reason not to let climate scientists and economists dictate what we may or may not do. This is not because I dislike freedom and take authority for granted, but because I love meritocracy and the ambition of man to triumph in the face of his weaknesses and challenges.
Posted by Axel Edgren on Fri 8 Jan 2010 at 05:35 AM
"If you have any doublts about Global Cooling, look outside. You don't have to be a scientist to realize they are scammers."
See, there's still stuff like this.
And we are supposed to respect Crowley's bumf? Perhaps we should base all our policy decisions on the observations of street-level citizens?
Since old Mrs. Flannegan just saw a few teenagers key a car, this means that the damages from teenager sabotage are in excess of 50 million euroes. The government of Ireland will react accordingly and order a curfew and 40 million euroes to be spent on addressing the problem. Thank goodness we listened to Mrs. Flannegan instead of those effete scientists with their "perspective" and "quantitative and qualitative studies". Who needs knowledge and study when we can just ask people like Crowley, who instantly know the score by looking out the window.
We are a pathetic species indeed. Cats and dogs are irrational and driven by instincts, but not even they are DUMB enough to look at a coming snowstorm and come to the conclusion that said snowstorm means things will never be warm some other time.
Did the surly and accusatory Mr. Crowley ever apply any skepticism to his own thinking and, um, impressive methodology? No. He is not a skeptic, and in my life I've yet to encounter a climate "skeptic" who actually demonstrates adequate skepticism.
Posted by Axel Edgren on Fri 8 Jan 2010 at 05:45 AM
The proceedings of the Third International Conference on Climate Change, June 2, 2009 in Washington, DC http://www.heartland.org/events/WashingtonDC09/proceedings.html are very interesting. In the video of a speech by Patrick Michaels, Ph.D. he notes that the American Meteorological Society was having their lunch in the same building. They were having their Summer Policy Colloquium, including lectures by government global warming proponents and a workshop on "How To Make Legislation on Climate Change."
The Fourth International Conference on Climate Change in Chicago, Illinois on May 16-18, 2010 http://www.heartland.org/events/2010Chicago/index.html should prove even more interesting in the wake of Climategate.
Posted by Wayne B on Fri 8 Jan 2010 at 06:40 AM
Ah the Heartland fellows. Who are responsible for the following idiocy:
that ozone depletion is nothing to worry about
that smoking doesn’t cause cancer
that second-hand smoke is nothing to worry about anyway
and now that carbon dioxide in the atmosphere is nothing to worry about.
How's that for a track record, Wayne? Perhaps you should show some humility in the future. Also, trying to pretend that the CRU hack is more than an anecdote reflects poorly on your capacity to apply "skepticism", seeing as a skeptical look at the incident does not impinge the credibility of the main corpus on which people like me base their views and positions. Again, you are not a skeptic.
Once again - there are no AGW "skeptics" as far as my experience goes- they are either
a) infatuated with an undeveloped vision of a flawless market and show a zealot's hatred of anyone who damages the vision (libertarians, the Heartland fools, the Cato institute)
b) so in thrall of a hatred of the left that no lie is too small to defend in order to spite them (James Delingpole, Monckton, some of the people here in the comments section)
c) paid to lie or otherwise enjoy some kind of beneficial (financial, emotional) arrangement from visiting conferences where the main feature are a bunch of intellectually mediocre people putting scare quotes around "consensus" and babbling about the invented "ice age scare". (meteorologists and the odious pile of arrogance the article discusses at length)
d) pathetic plebeians and average folks who have surrendered to the kind of folksy arrogance and complete relativism Palin espouses.
Not one person I've seen here provides even a glancing reason to reconsider - there are no actual AGW skeptics.
I don't trust the scientists because they have diplomas or lab coats. I do so because they have shown a capacity to winnow themselves and their work with the same tenacity that the military does. They are, simply and honestly, superior.
I rip words of Nietzsche from their context, sexism and all:
"We know very well how science strikes those who merely glance at it in passing, as if they were walking by, as women do and unfortunately also many artists: the severity of its service, its inexorability in small as in great matters, and the speed of weighing and judging matters and passing judgment makes them feel dizzy and afraid. Above all they are terrified to see how the most difficult is demanded and the best is done without praise and decorations. Indeed, what one hears is, as among soldiers, mostly reproaches and harsh rebukes; for doing things well is considered the rule, and failure is the exception; but the rule always tends to keep quiet. This "severity of science" has the same effect as the forms and good manners of the best society: it is frightening for the uninitiated."
Posted by Axel Edgren on Fri 8 Jan 2010 at 06:59 AM
Wow, a long piece trying to discredit people the author disagrees with. This is the state of American journalism? A sorry state indeed.
The issue here is that literally hundreds of people who work in the field of weather every day disagree with what politicized science is telling them. Rather than say they are ignorant, perhaps looking at what they say might be wiser.
For example, look at the read me file among the ClimateGate information. Forget the e-mails for a second. This file alone shows how flawed the science that resulted really was. Software that didn't work, couldn't work with other software and data either flawed or thrown out.
Reading that file alone should inspire those who do believe global warming is a major threat to do something to combat the marketing problem other than yell. There should be an open and interactive vetting process of ALL the data they rely on. They want a global commitment to fixing a problem when a huge chunk of people no longer believe them.
So, fix that. Convince people. Not with anecdotes, but with raw original (and undeleted) data and e-mails. Let other scientists look at that data. Let skeptical organizations see what's going on behind the scenes at all these organizations. If it's an honest and legit process, you will convince a lot of skeptics. If it's not, then too bad.
Posted by Dan Gainor on Fri 8 Jan 2010 at 07:52 AM
I think those who advocate the theory that carbon dioxide is the cause of man made global warming, should practice what they preach and stop exhaling.
Posted by bob marks on Fri 8 Jan 2010 at 08:19 AM
I'm more of a behaviorist than a climatologist, and the thing that strikes me most about these comments and the original article, is how much time is spent by those who support AGW in the act of ad hominem attacks against those who reject AGW. My first thought, if the AGW proponents feel that they have to convince their audience that their opponents are evil incarnate before they can convince them of the results of their research, then the AGW supporters science must be very weak. If you want to convince reasonable people, you will have to quit acting like kids on the school yard first. Stick to your science, and leave the personal attacks out of the equation.
Posted by William Epperly on Fri 8 Jan 2010 at 08:20 AM
"Wow, a long piece trying to discredit people the author disagrees with"
Why else would anyone try to discredit someone? And why is it somehow uncouth or unbecoming of a journalist to discredit people who actually spread untruths?
See, you don't want to challenge the assertion that the target is wrong and worthy of discredit... So, if a journalist is never allowed to depict a liar as a liar, how exactly are the liars supposed to be challenged?
Seeing as anyone who attacks your darling contrarians are by default bad or immoral for doing so, you've effectively created a catch 22 - either we leave the man alone uncontested and uninvestigated (at which point you can say "neener neener you can't defeat his arguments you are running scared) or we actually investigate him, criticize him for his faults and lies, at which point you then scream "You can't handle disagreements! You have it in for him, that means his lies aren't lies because *you* uncovered them!"
If you think we can't see through that ploy, then you are as stupid as you think we are.
"The issue here is that literally hundreds of people who work in the field of weather every day disagree with what politicized science is telling them."
Working at a Kindergarten doesn't make you a child psychologist or a pediatrician, Dan. Also, the "science" is not telling them anything - scientists are. And since the scientists work in the field they are talking about, that means that what they say is worth more than what the meteorologists think. Climatologists don't pipe up about the work of meteorologists, do they?
Goodness gracious, now the meteorologists somehow think they have default credibility in another field, and you enable them (funnily enough, I often hear the "skeptic" argument "We can't predict the weather properly, so how can we predict the climate?!?!!?", showing that meteorologists either serve as incompetent accomplices to the hated climatologists or as their betters, depending on what stupid argument the "skeptics" want to make). Complete relativism.
"Rather than say they are ignorant, perhaps looking at what they say might be wiser."
What do you think the above article just did, pedant?
"Software that didn't work, couldn't work with other software and data either flawed or thrown out."
See, the onus is on you to actually show that, as the scientists worked, actual reality was not properly accumulated and summarized in data/report form. Logistics, sir, logistics. You've never had computer issues, I take it? Lucky man.
"Reading that file alone should inspire those who do believe global warming is a major threat to do something to combat the marketing problem other than yell."
Marketing is exactly what AGW proponents should focus on, because those who value the *appearance* of being right always trumps those who value being right as an *ideal*. Scientists often forget how stupid people can be, probably because they are not stupid themselves (notice I said scientists - academics are sometimes another matter).
"Not with anecdotes, but with raw original (and undeleted) data and e-mails."
Tall order coming from a person who is himself inflating an anecdote and projecting through it.
Actual skeptic? Nah. But the same extreme arrogance and hatred often exhibited by skeptics? Definitely not shown, and for this I respect and hark to parts of what you say.
Posted by Axel Edgren on Fri 8 Jan 2010 at 08:32 AM
When the computer program a "scientist" writes contains a "fudge factor" (labeled as such in the code comments) in order to provide a "VERY ARTIFICAL [sic] CORRECTION for decline" (also taken from the code comments) in order to craft a "hockey stick" increase in global temperatures, any reasonable person would question the value of his "science".
;
; Apply a VERY ARTIFICAL correction for decline!!
;
yrloc=[1400,findgen(19)*5.+1904]
valadj=[0.,0.,0.,0.,0.,-0.1,-0.25,-0.3,0.,- 0.1,0.3,0.8,1.2,1.7,2.5,2.6,2.6,$
2.6,2.6,2.6]*0.75 ; fudge factor
if n_elements(yrloc) ne n_elements(valadj) then message,'Oooops!'
;
yearlyadj=interpol(valadj,yrloc,timey)
Posted by padikiller on Fri 8 Jan 2010 at 08:40 AM
"is how much time is spent by those who support AGW in the act of ad hominem attacks against those who reject AGW."
Seeing your hectoring and sanctimonious comment right underneath the genius "bob's" demand that AGW proponents should stop breathing is the most delicious irony. Such a perfect illustration of the two-faced impression one gets from the skeptic crowd - one half weeping about insults and besmirching, the other half spreading it unendingly.
"My first thought, if the AGW proponents feel that they have to convince their audience that their opponents are evil incarnate before they can convince them of the results of their research"
"evil incarnate"? How about vulgar buffoons without good faith? Coleman speculates arrogantly and without evidence about people he has never met. May we not accost him for such failings? Is such nastiness too harsh on your eyes? I say thee "BAH!"
"Stick to your science, and leave the personal attacks out of the equation."
Under no circumstances - if attacks on a person's work based on reasoning is separated from attacks on his/her character based on mere observations of their character, you may not complain for a second. If a man's reasoning is sound and accountable and his indictment of another is worthy of taking into account, then any insults he levers at the person cannot under any circumstances weaken the indictment.
You are practicing "Calvinball", Epperly - setting up disingenuous and arbitrary rules in order to lecture and control your opponents.
The article contains examples of Coleman being flawed in argumentation (claiming authority beyond his accomplishments and studying) and in spirit and mind (hypocrisy, bias, projecting, arrogance, bad faith) - but these two indictments are evidenced *separately*. Stop whining.
Let's see: Relativism, concern trolling, disingenuous and weak attempts to make justified attacks on a person discrediting of the person delivering them instead, and a failure to understand that both ad hominem and more reasoned criticism can both fit in a worthy text (a man can be a vulgar buffoon and still be correct, and the evaluations should be separate, of course). Psychoanalyze that.
I Repeat: I have not encountered any sincere AGW skeptics in my life.
Posted by Axel Edgren on Fri 8 Jan 2010 at 08:52 AM
Wow Alex,
So a kindergarten teacher is not an expert in childhood developement? And a builder is not an architect, but the builder knows when the "model is off". As such what should be and is can often times be miles apart and so you will have to excuse those of us who don't believe the sky is falling.
Posted by Dan Hooker on Fri 8 Jan 2010 at 09:09 AM
The reason why there is such a strong skepticism of the man made global warming crowd is directly related to their front man Al Gore (who is neither a meteorologist nor a climatologist, but is a journalist.) Whenever a skeptic raises legitimate questions like, “what provisions have you made for sunspot or solar flare activity in your modeling,” the response is “I don’t have to answer that, the science is settled.” That is not a scientific argument. When another scientist makes a FOIA request to NASA to release the raw data, NASA in turn fights the request for over two years. If the science was so settled, wouldn’t NASA want to open up the data to show the world how real and dire the situation is.
Instead it is these so called climate scientists that are resorting to anecdotal and non scientific means to further their agenda. No rational person wants to see the world destroyed if in fact man is causing it; on the other hand, no rational person wants millions of humans to suffer severe economic damage because an acorn fell on Chicken Little’s head.
Posted by Gene Craig on Fri 8 Jan 2010 at 09:15 AM
you try and discredit the weatherman for spending no time in climatology, but the savior and pusher of this climate change agenda for many years now has been al gore...how long has he spent in climatology? let's also talk about how his main motives are in using government regulation to make money for companies he is both invested in and of which he is on the board.
i am no scientist but i think it is a little conceited to think that humans can cause this kind of change on the earth.
Posted by jon h on Fri 8 Jan 2010 at 10:47 AM
"So a kindergarten teacher is not an expert in childhood developement?"
Perhaps where you are from. But there are different frames of time, different types of work and different focuses from where I see it. You know what the analogy was meant to illustrate, so don't resort to pedantry. Also, it's "Axel", if you would.
"And a builder is not an architect, but the builder knows when the "model is off"."
Architects study physics, chemistry and other subjects so they don't design things that won't stand.
What we have here are builders looking at a building they didn't work on, making boisterous and self-congratulatory claims about its stability while claiming a secret cult of thousands of scientists have joined together to erect faulty buildings, for some unspecified reason. Probably out of jealousy or a sense of inferiority.
"Whenever a skeptic raises legitimate questions like, “what provisions have you made for sunspot or solar flare activity in your modeling,” the response is “I don’t have to answer that, the science is settled.” "
That's a lie, of course. All scientists are skeptics themselves, and cannot avoid criticism of and questions about their work by pointing at the quality of other, related works. What happens all the time is that some "skeptic" picks up some report and makes poor criticism of it, at which point he is shown that he has to put the report back where it was, thus settling it once again.
"Instead it is these so called climate scientists that are resorting to anecdotal and non scientific means to further their agenda."
Incredibly general and unfounded statement. No good faith. Murmuring of some ephemeral "agenda" makes you look like quite the alarmist, fella.
"no rational person wants millions of humans to suffer severe economic damage because an acorn fell on Chicken Little’s head."
Ah yes, the AGW proponents are Chicken Little's, while the people screaming about scientist conspiracies, "agendas" and plots to destroy economic growth and harm millions of human beings are not being alarmist. More delicious irony for someone of my heightened perspective and skeptical capacity to appreciate.
Not even the CIA could create such a conspiracy.
Just for starters - please provide at least one shred of evidence that suggests some political agency managed to force the people in charge of the following institutions to agree that "most of the global warming in recent decades can be attributed to human activities". Speculation is not acceptable, of course. Any whining and pathetic attempts to dismiss these institutions or something, and I'll post even more institutions.
National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration
Environmental Protection Agency
NASA's Goddard Institute of Space Studies
American Geophysical Union
American Institute of Physics
National Center for Atmospheric Research
American Meteorological Society
The Royal Society of the UK
Canadian Meteorological and Oceanographic Society
American Association for the Advancement of Science
Once again: from my POW, there are no sincere AGW skeptics. All are either marketers or addicts to the serotonin releases given by biases, partisan hatred or cognitive dissonance.
Posted by Axel Edgren on Fri 8 Jan 2010 at 11:01 AM
This argument really goes no where. Now after the recent outing of the "scientist" e mails, where they change number to support their theory, the whole thing becomes a question again.
One thing I learned when working on my Masters was that you always read a study with a critical eye and always look for the BIAS.
Then you look to see who is going to profit from this study, and how the study will change society.
Looks to me that Al Gore, and his cronies, have made a financial killing in the enviromental carbon footprint sales. Also several people in the UN are scrambling to obtain power over any Nation they can and push a World Government.
One thing I did learn ....just follow the money and power.
Posted by Alex on Fri 8 Jan 2010 at 11:02 AM
"but the savior and pusher of this climate change agenda for many years now has been al gore...how long has he spent in climatology?"
Do you honestly think I would be this smug and convinced if I had Al Gore's slideshows to rely on? He is a marketer - I approve of what he is doing (unless he skirts the truth) but he didn't persuade me.
"let's also talk about how his main motives are in using government regulation to make money for companies he is both invested in and of which he is on the board."
Which is one of the reasons I don't rely on him for any of my claims. Now kindly do some journalism and check to see if the thousands of scientists the world over who agree with him have stocks in his kind of companies or something. Anyone is capable of any kind of hidden agenda - what "skeptics" provide are baseless speculation about the motivations of the scientists who dare to say things the "skeptics" don't want them to say. "It *could* just be a scam - that means there *is* a scam" etc.
"i am no scientist but i think it is a little conceited to think that humans can cause this kind of change on the earth."
A few decades before the 40's you'd be hard pressed to find anyone imagining an aircraft-carried bomb capable of snuffing out hundreds of thousands of people in one go.
Read up, think for yourself: http://skepticalscience.com/Are-humans-too-insignificant-to-affect-global-climate.htm
You "skeptics" fancy yourselves the new Dick Tracys, so snoop ahead.
Posted by Axel Edgren on Fri 8 Jan 2010 at 11:12 AM
"Also several people in the UN are scrambling to obtain power over any Nation they can and push a World Government."
And there's tinfoil-wearing Alex with the "NWO" alarmism - that means I can put an "X" on that square as well!
I have a BINGO!
What do I win? A sense of relief over not being insulated enough to believe that the UN is pushing a frigging "NWO". "X-Files" was a good show, but it's still fiction.
Posted by Axel Edgren on Fri 8 Jan 2010 at 11:18 AM
Axel Edgren is a perfect example of a trend that I find so infuriating. Not one of his lengthy diatribes addresses the key issue raised by meteorologists, that is, the questionable accuracy of climate models. Mike H's comment goes to the heart of the matter. Instead of addressing the issue, Mr. Edgren continues to hammer the argument that there are "No sincere AGW skeptics."
I'm a center-left liberal who STRONGLY believes that we need to dramatically change the way we produce and consume energy. From all I have read, it seems certain that pumping tons of carbon into the atmosphere is warming the planet. However, the more I read about climate change, the more instances I find of proponents shouting down anyone who raises any scientific questions about the models and their conclusions. I find that trend truly disturbing. The questions of "how much warming?" and "what will the impacts be?" are completely based on climate models that aren't provably more accurate than the meteorological models whose inaccuracies we all love to bemoan. But I guess to folks like Axel Edgren, I'm just an evil concern troll, my concerns couldn't possibly be genuine.
News flash: if you want to actually pass climate change legislation, you need a public relations plan more sophisticated than "The science is settled and if you question it you are a villain."
Posted by Alpine McGregor on Fri 8 Jan 2010 at 11:32 AM
Alpine, you made my point exactly. Axel has not responded with one bit of science. Let me throw a few questions at you Axel and let me see if you can find ANY scientist on the Al Gore side of the fence that has addressed these issues with real scientific data.
1. Sun Spots - Climatologist for over 100 years have compared sunspot activity with climate changes. Science has shown that there is a direct correlation with sunspots and increase in temperatures. Last year we had an extended period of ZERO sunspot activity. That has translated to the extreme cold that we are now experiencing. How does that affect account for in these global warming models?
2. We have had a long history of ice ages and warming periods. These things occurred long before man started driving cars, producing electricity and flying airplanes. Why do we thing that now we could either prevent or cause another one of these cycles.
3. We humans inspire oxygen and expire co2. Plants inspire co2 and expire oxygen. This is a natural symbiotic relationship. If there is an abundance of CO2, then the flora will increase and consume the excess. Have the climatologists accounted for this in their model?
4. Your dear NASA has also observed planetary warming on mars and Venus at the same time as they claim that we have had warming on our native orb. What coal fired power plants on Venus are causing the Venusians global warming problem?
I will patiently await your reply. My guess is you will not use facts but personal slurs to argue your positions.
Posted by Gene Craig on Fri 8 Jan 2010 at 12:02 PM
I have to disagree with the statement that a post graduate degree is a 'requirement' for (academic) scientific research. I have worked in a science field my entire life and have no degree at all. Scientific method is not a mystery. It is a process. And it can and has been taught to many including children. While it may be useful at times to have such 'credentials', proper method can be applied and accurate, credible and comprehensive data ending in the same conclusion happens every day. When it comes to the point that we are talking about "Global Warming", a project of considerable proportions, funding becomes an issue. When governments fund research many times they want ridiculous prerequisites to 'qualify' the DoE up front. But considering the results and the process of the AGW research so far it would seem that any measures taken to prevent a "scam" were less than effective, eh?
Posted by Ruler4You on Fri 8 Jan 2010 at 12:40 PM
As it is said, Weathermen are always wrong. If I am concerned about my health would I take the advise of a Poet or that of a Doctor.
Posted by Springman on Fri 8 Jan 2010 at 12:51 PM
Fact: It was 4.4 deg warmer 1100 years ago. Unless you are claiming that was from Al Gore flying around the world on his jet then it's more then settled - That's CHECKMATE! - Oh, and you've been caught trying to hide this one to - so, oops - now you're known lairs and cheats.
Or are you saying your perfect climate is how it was back a 100,000 years or so ago when Chicago was under 2 miles of ice? Oops, CHECKMATE AGAIN!
Oh and warming has been happening on Mars so Oops, - unless Al's been running his 100 ft boat on Mars - that's Strike Three!!! How about this, just look up - no really, look up but try not to stare. See anything that might play a roll in climate change? Can you do anything about - hmm, so no way to tax the masses into oblivion. . . Well, I'm sure you can come up with something - asteroids maybe? I'm sure it will just be a CRYSIS if we don't all immediately turn over our lives, freedom, future and wealth to you. Hurry up, the debate is over! Ok, so you probably can't fool anyone old enough to remember the new ice age scam in the 70's and now this global warming scam but you've got all the mush brained kids in school! Kids tell your stupid parents about the pending asteroid doom!
Posted by E. Vattal on Fri 8 Jan 2010 at 12:56 PM
Springman, your argument is fallacious. “Weathermen are always wrong” is an absolute lie. Weathermen are sometimes wrong, true. (They are especially wrong when I plan to go fishing) Doctors are sometimes wrong, also true. Your quip implies that poets are as good at doctoring as weathermen are at tomorrow’s forecast, nonsense!
Maybe you should say self serving scientists cannot be trusted. I would rather get my facts from Yeti than a politician.
Posted by Gene Craig on Fri 8 Jan 2010 at 01:08 PM
Appeal to authority is a logical fallacy. This article is riddled throughout with it.
I don't need to have a PhD in a physical science to know that scientists should calibrate their instruments and site them properly. Climate scientists do not. The incompetence is staggering. Anthony Watts has shown that almost 90% of the US monitoring stations fail basic scientific standards. The author here says the problems are accounted for. Rather than simply accept this BS, he should ask some simple questions about the process. If he has a brain, he'll quickly figure out that the NOAA answer is ridiculous. Their claim to be able to weave gold out of their measurement garbage is more egregious than that of the original alchemists.
With a well-established track record of gross incompetence spiced up with instances of outright fraud, the notion that anyone should defer to the judgments of climate scientists is ludicrous. Find some that actually employ the scientific method and perhaps we can talk.
Posted by stan on Fri 8 Jan 2010 at 01:11 PM
This was an outstanding article. It's been quite a while since I've seen the CJR, and I had forgotten how good you can be. Thank you for researching, writing, and publishing this important article.
To boil the article down to its essentials:
1. Meteorologists forecast the weather, not the climate. They have an instantaneous focus, and aim for a far higher level of precision than climatologists.
2. Because precise weather forecasts are frequently wrong, some meteorologists doubt than climate forecasts can be right.
3. Skeptical meteorologists miss the precision issue. Climatologists aren't forecasting weather, but rather climate trends. If meteorologists were climatologists, they could simply forecast the arrival of winter and be right.
4. In daily life, meterologists can have an inflated sense of their scientific expertise, leading them to be too confident about their opinions and too broad in their conclusions.
5. Meterology is strongly near-future-oriented, making meterologists susceptible to overlooking climate changes that have already taken place.
I would prefer that the proponents of climate change theory be wrong. The implications of their work are very worrisome. But the more I read and hear on the subject, the more I am convinced that they are on the right track.
I don't see a whole lot of downside, and in fact quite a bit of upside, to following the advice of the climate change theorists. Even if they are wrong about climate change, reducing pollution and the use of hydrocarbons will deliver a wide variety of benefits.
The worst aspect of the debate is the tendency of the skeptics to descend into ad hominem attacks on Al Gore, who has been nothing more than a messenger. I'd be the first to agree that Gore has a pedantic air about him that I find a bit offputting, but people ought to be able to look past that and consider the underlying information. I was no fan of Ronald Reagan's personality either, but the man did bring some worthwhile ideas to the table.
I remember the "ice age" hysteria of the 1970s. It turns out that this was a media artifact, a misinterpretation of climate science of the time. Climatologists were not predicting a new ice age; the media of that era pounced on a small portion of their work and ran with it. For skeptics to be denouncing climatology on this basis is wrong.
Posted by CWP on Fri 8 Jan 2010 at 01:35 PM
To Patrick:
so by your reasoning, if I would at a physics lab, or veterinarian's office, or physician's office LONG enough, I know quantum physics, can operate on your pet or diagnose and treat your disease.
Amazing. And here I thought a few degrees of study in your chosen field were needed. I could have saved myself about $100k in student loans for my undergrad, masters and doctoral degree.
So you equate the education and training of scientists with specialization in their field with someone with a journalism degree and some years experience in broadcasting the weather.
Critical thinking. It's cool. Try some.
Posted by Pk baldwin on Fri 8 Jan 2010 at 01:46 PM
@stan, the inaccuracy of weather stations doesn't doom climate change theory.
There are two reasons for this. First, weather station data is one of many data sets that have been used in the theory and modeling. The climatologists also look at ice cores, tree cores, glacier patterns, and a variety of other data and indicators.
Second, the general direction of inaccuracy is known, and can be adjusted for. In the 1980s, I had reason to look closely at the data used by economic policy makers to analyze and forecast the economy. At close range, much of the data was (and is) inaccurate. I brought this to the attention of a talented corporate economist, and he said, "Yes, you are right. But we know that it's inaccurate. The issue is whether the inaccuracy has changed over time, and my reading of the stats says that the same inaccuracies you see now were present 40 years ago."
Climatologists err when they become too specific in their predictions. For instance, we cannot know if Hurricane X was "caused by global warming." On the other hand, if the glaciers of the Himalayas have shrunk by 25% in the past 35 years, that's something that we can reasonably ascribe to climate change, if we have a theoretical framework to fit it into.
Posted by CWP on Fri 8 Jan 2010 at 01:47 PM
Well CWP, if you want to reduce pollution you better look at the insane plans Gates and others have proposed for pumping massive amounts of pollution into the atmosphere. And that's not byproduct pollution - no, that's pollution made for no other purpose but to pollute! See you can't have it both ways - clean or really dirty. Most sane people want it clean but the problem the climate alarmist have now is that natural sources "pollute" far more then man made sources and people laugh at you when you talk about capping farts n-stuff. Besides how long before the rubes figure out the earths biomass ratio to plant life has been and will always remain in balance? (doesn't work otherwise) So stay on the stick CWP your side is about to start promoting pollution - you know, quick to save us!
Posted by E. Vattal on Fri 8 Jan 2010 at 01:53 PM
@Mike H, if climatology were a brand new science, and if climate change theory was the brainchild of a couple of people, I'd be more receptive to your point. But there are too many people, from too many discipliines, working independently, who have reached similar conclusions, to dismiss their conclusions on the basis that the data isn't precise enough.
I think you're making the same mistake as the meteorologist skeptics. Your argument is that, because engineers and short-term weather forecasts are judged (fairly, I might add) against a very high expectation of precision, that the same expectations should apply to climatology.
If climatologists were to build a bridge, or forecast the weather in Chicago on January 14, 2016, then their data sets should be examined microscopically. But that's not what they are doing. They are forecasting broad trends. A different standard of accuracy should be applied.
Posted by CWP on Fri 8 Jan 2010 at 01:56 PM
@ E Vittal, it's interesting that you should mention the idea of pumping smog components into the upper atmosphere to counteract global warming. My understanding is that this won't work, because it would destroy the ozone layer. I think the correct approach will be to reduce carbon output. The question is whether we can do that in time to head off catastrophe. By the time the effects of climate change are obvious to the man on the street, it could be too late to do anything about it.
Again, why the resorting to ad hominems? Gates, Gore, etc.? I really don't care who the ideas come from.
Posted by CWP on Fri 8 Jan 2010 at 02:01 PM
CWP, I know billions of people share your opinion of how horrible the world would be if it was but a few degrees warmer just like it was 1100 years ago! Or, even half that amount. Yup, that's what they are thinking right this instant! I must be the fool on this issue. . you're right.
Who needs all that farmland opening up on the plains of Canada and Greenland - And just who would like to cut their heating needs in half? The HORROR of it all is so clear. . . Never mind that 98.8% of all greenhouse gas is water vapor it's all our fault. BAD US - why don't you prove your point by holding your breath and we will see if it helps any?
Posted by E. Vattal on Fri 8 Jan 2010 at 02:13 PM
CWP you make a great summation of the article. Some of us are trying to point out some of the things the article is missing.
To boil the article down to its essentials:
1. Meteorologists forecast the weather, not the climate. They have an instantaneous focus, and aim for a far higher level of precision than climatologists.
True
2. Because precise weather forecasts are frequently wrong, some meteorologists doubt than climate forecasts can be right.
Likewise a Meteorologist is proven right or wrong almost instantly. We will have to wait a few hundred years to see if a climatologist is right. You imply that a meteorologist can be wrong but a climatologist cannot.
3. Skeptical meteorologists miss the precision issue. Climatologists aren't forecasting weather, but rather climate trends. If meteorologists were climatologists, they could simply forecast the arrival of winter and be right.
If climatologists would stick to forecasting climate trends then that would be the end of it. Climatologists have moved into the world of managing climate trends. That would be equal to meteorologists attempting to stop hurricanes or make it rain.
4. In daily life, meteorologists can have an inflated sense of their scientific expertise, leading them to be too confident about their opinions and too broad in their conclusions.
In daily life climatologists have an inflated sense of their expertise, that if their instruments are off, they can feel what the measurement should have been. Also, if their models do not show what they want it to show, they will jimmy the data until it does and destroy the evidence. TV weathermen get better ratings when there is severe weather. If he manipulates his models to sensationalize his forecast, it won’t be long before no one will watch him. A climatologist can do that and he will be dead and gone before anyone finds him out.
5. Meteorology is strongly near-future-oriented, making meteorologists susceptible to overlooking climate changes that have already taken place.
Climatologists are overlooking climate changes that have taken place over the millennia. They ignore the cause and effect of those changes because it does not suit their current agenda.
Why is the current climate the best one to have? Who is to say that sea levels 100 feet higher would not serve the planet better? How about sea levels 100 feet lower?
The arrogance of man is astounding.
Posted by Gene Craig on Fri 8 Jan 2010 at 02:16 PM
*Coleman wasn’t arguing against the integrity of a particular conclusion based on careful original research—something that would have constituted useful scientific skepticism. Instead, he went after the motives of the scientists themselves. Climate researchers, he wrote, “look askance at the rest of us, certain of their superiority. They respect government and disrespect business, particularly big business. They are environmentalists above all else.”*
I don't know why the author finds this extraordinary.
This has been the modus operandi of so-called climate-change researchers all along - as revealed in the climategate emails, which are by the by, not just about `a few data sets on tree rings'
This `evidence' is that which underpinned the global warming hypothesis - which is what it remains now that the `evidence' for it has proven to be a fraud.
ps - the global-cooling deniers need not bother with `other c-c institutes state the global warming is real'; these other institutes are implicated in the CRU frauds and misreprentations.
Although the author of this piece apparently has received the urgent memo from the real world, all global warming `evidence' is now considered suspect unless and until it is reviewed by a third-party group of auditors.
Posted by R.B. Glennie on Fri 8 Jan 2010 at 02:44 PM
@ axel -
*In short - touting "Climategate" as a blot on the work of ALL climate scientists the world over is like waving a hot summer as proof of AGW - it's a sign of STUPIDITY and a LACK of skeptical faculties.*
I guess, Axel, you're saying that Al gore and the other climate-change hysterics are Stupid and Lack Scepticism, bec. they constantly pointed to hot summers as `proof' of global warming... remember the heat-wave of 03?
Posted by R.B. Glennie on Fri 8 Jan 2010 at 02:57 PM
@R.B. Glennie
"I guess, Axel, you're saying that Al gore and the other climate-change hysterics are Stupid and Lack Scepticism, bec. they constantly pointed to hot summers as `proof' of global warming... remember the heat-wave of 03?"
Okay, could you please proofread your posts?
Anyway: Yes I am. They are not allowed to tout anecdotes as evidence. What they are allowed to do is give it its due weight in discussions - very low. But they have more under their belt, unlike the hysterics waving the "Climategate" flag.
Posted by Axel Edgren on Fri 8 Jan 2010 at 03:11 PM
@stan
"I don't need to have a PhD in a physical science to know that scientists should calibrate their instruments and site them properly. Climate scientists do not."
Yeah see when you make accusations you basically have to ensure they can be upheld in court. You are merely slanderous.
"Anthony Watts has shown that almost 90% of the US monitoring stations fail basic scientific standards."
No he hasn't: http://skepticalscience.com/urban-heat-island-effect.htm
"While urban areas are undoubtedly warmer than surrounding rural areas, this has had little to no impact on warming trends."
ALSO: "A good companion piece would be NOAA’s analysis responding to criticism from Anthony Watts/Heartland Institute that most US weather stations were suboptimally sited. NOAA took all 1200+ stations and took the 70 that Watts et al judged to be “good or best”, and showed that both sets of data gave essentially the same surface temperature trend. The .pdf of the NOAA analysis is here: http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/oa/about/response-v2.pdf "
You fail, try again. Look how Watts gladly associates himself with the Heartlanders despite their proven lies about tobacco smoking and cancer. What a "skeptic", eh?
"Find some that actually employ the scientific method and perhaps we can talk."
See, you are making demands without performing anything yourself. You won't even link up properly, show anyone how to follow your alleged reasoning. The NOAA defended themselves, and you dismissed them without even showing any criticism or looking at what they did - you just shouted "humbug" and ignored them. That's very pathetic.
There are no actual AGW skeptics.
Posted by Axel Edgren on Fri 8 Jan 2010 at 03:24 PM
It seems pretty clear to me why weathermen don't trust the corrupt data bases of the CRU and the GISS, or the corrupt men who put them together, for the absurb idea that a computer model could tell what the climate will be 100 years from now when computer models can't tell what the weather will be next month. Who predicted this 3 months ago?
http://vortex.plymouth.edu/uschill.gif
Axel Edgren is a Character right out of Atlas Shrugged, who sees the problem not with corrupt data, corrupt scientists and corrupt politicians, but the problem to him is how to get weathermen to brain wash the rest of us into believing the scam, so they can all cash in. Looters, Moochers and Whiners.
Who is John Galt?
Q. E. D.
Posted by Albert J on Fri 8 Jan 2010 at 03:25 PM
@Gene Craig, yes, the climatologists might be wrong. After all, science marches on. But what if they are essentially right? Big problem, wouldn't you agree? On the other hand, if they're wrong and we reduce carbon emissions in response to an illusory threat, what will we have lost?
In the industrialized West, we'd have electric cars, less mining of coal, energy from renewable sources, and better conservation of water. In the industrializing world, there wouldn't need to be any replacement. They'd install the new stuff from the get-go. Much of which would come from the West, at a profit.
Seems to me that we win either way. If the climatologists are right, we avert catastrophe and win. If they're wrong, there was no catastrophe to avert and we still win. On the other hand, if we do nothing and the climataologists are right, we're screwed in a major way. If we do nothing and the climatologists are wrong, I'm not sure we're any better off than we were.
Take climate off the table for a minute. World oil production is at or near the peak anyway. The Age of Petroleum is going to fade no matter what.
Posted by CWP on Fri 8 Jan 2010 at 03:28 PM
"the global-cooling deniers need not bother with `other c-c institutes state the global warming is real'; these other institutes are implicated in the CRU frauds and misreprentations."
Global cooling? Now your contrarianism is forcing you to embarrass yourself.
You haven't actually given me an example of how all those institutes are implicated. You have obviously not looked at the link from factcheck I posted.
You are most definitely not a skeptic.
Due punishment: I'm posting more institutions of people of superior schooling and awareness who all disagree with you and whom you can't implicate in ill doings:
The Academies of Science from 19 different countries all endorse the consensus. 11 countries have signed a joint statement endorsing the consensus position:
Academia Brasiliera de Ciencias (Brazil)
Royal Society of Canada
Chinese Academy of Sciences
Academie des Sciences (France)
Deutsche Akademie der Naturforscher Leopoldina (Germany)
Indian National Science Academy
Accademia dei Lincei (Italy)
Science Council of Japan
Russian Academy of Sciences
Royal Society (United Kingdom)
National Academy of Sciences (USA) (12 Mar 2009 news release)
A letter from 18 scientific organisations to US Congress states:
"Observations throughout the world make it clear that climate change is occurring, and rigorous scientific research demonstrates that the greenhouse gases emitted by human activities are the primary driver. These conclusions are based on multiple independent lines of evidence, and contrary assertions are inconsistent with an objective assessment of the vast body of peer-reviewed science."
Posted by Axel Edgren on Fri 8 Jan 2010 at 03:30 PM
Correction, the Atlas Shrugged character is Charles Homans, who wants weathermen to help brain wash us while the world is in in the deep freeze. Axel is just a Kool aid drinker, who can't use simple logic.
Where is John Galt?
Posted by Albert J on Fri 8 Jan 2010 at 03:31 PM
Oh how swell now the objectivists are here. Now things will get less partisan and hateful for sure...
Posted by Axel Edgren on Fri 8 Jan 2010 at 03:33 PM
Those who deny climate change are acting as if we're being required to give up our way of life. Actaully, those who are sounding the alarm are trying to preserve it.
What does it matter whether a car is powered by gasoline or electricity, as long as it gets you there? If your house is heated and cooled by a ground-source heat pump, is it any hotter or cooler? If the extra electricity needed to power those things comes from windmills and solar cells, is it not still electricity?
I do think that some of the proponents of climate change theory are overbearing and patronizing. I grant that one. But then, there are a lot of people whose manner I don't like but who I still listen to. If the climatologists are right, wouldn't it be something if a historian from 2150 looked back and said that nothing got done because a bunch of Americans thought Al Gore was a prig?
A lot of the changes they're suggesting are pretty easy things. They cost a bunch of money up front but pay for themselves over time. We ought to be doing them anyway, but now we've got all the more reason to.
Posted by CWP on Fri 8 Jan 2010 at 03:44 PM
With the recent 'Climategate' revelations in which the leading 'scientists' who subscribe to global warming caused by man have been proven to change data, delete data that does not fit their wishes, attempt to silence those who do not accept global warming, and other such actions how can any of us believe what they say. Until there is a complete review of all available date and reconcilliation between tree rings and other sources, such as historical references to a 400 hundred yeard warming several hundred years back, the 'science' of climatology must not be considered a science at all but a religion with no proof. We should all step back from the hype and demand unbiased individuals without funding from prejudiced sources research all available information and present recomendations to the public. Until that is completed anyone who believes the promoters of climatology are basing their belief on theories with not proof. The e-mails form 'Climategate' show that cleary.
Posted by Marty Dailey on Fri 8 Jan 2010 at 03:46 PM
With the recent 'Climategate' revelations in which the leading 'scientists' who subscribe to global warming caused by man have been proven to change data, delete data that does not fit their wishes, attempt to silence those who do not accept global warming, and other such actions how can any of us believe what they say. Until there is a complete review of all available date and reconcilliation between tree rings and other sources, such as historical references to a 400 hundred yeard warming several hundred years back, the 'science' of climatology must not be considered a science at all but a religion with no proof. We should all step back from the hype and demand unbiased individuals without funding from prejudiced sources research all available information and present recomendations to the public. Until that is completed anyone who believes the promoters of climatology are basing their belief on theories with not proof. The e-mails form 'Climategate' show that clearly.
Posted by Marty Dailey on Fri 8 Jan 2010 at 03:46 PM
With the recent 'Climategate' revelations in which the leading 'scientists' who subscribe to global warming caused by man have been proven to change data, delete data that does not fit their wishes, attempt to silence those who do not accept global warming, and other such actions how can any of us believe what they say. Until there is a complete review of all available date and reconcilliation between tree rings and other sources, such as historical references to a 400 hundred yeard warming several hundred years back, the 'science' of climatology must not be considered a science at all but a religion with no proof. We should all step back from the hype and demand unbiased individuals without funding from prejudiced sources research all available information and present recomendations to the public. Until that is completed anyone who believes the promoters of climatology are basing their belief on theories with not proof. The e-mails form 'Climategate' show that clearly.
Posted by Marty Dailey on Fri 8 Jan 2010 at 03:53 PM
The religious order of climate alarmist are about to make a massive switch from - cleaner, cleaner, cleaner - to pollution on an unimaginable hellish and global scale. "Why?" because there is no there, there in the cleaner argument any longer. When people can take equipment designed to measure the emissions of what the alarmist call pollutants from a volcano and measure X times more emissions into the atmosphere in one afternoon then since the dawn of man's industrial revolution - that argument is over for good. When others can measure the emissions from a family pet and declare it's 3 times worse then the family car - that argument is over for good. And what solution is there to that is there anyway? Plant and animal life live in a balance. Exterminate or restrain one plant or animal life form and you just open up a nitch for a competitor with no net change. So what, you propose massive equal extermination of all life forms? And you would have to repeat it every so often because plants seed and animals breed. Yeah, that's not going to fly. So,here we go, from now on the argument will not be we need less pollution it's will be we need hellish amounts of pollution. "The Right Kind" My guess is that's not going to fly either - but it's coming folks count on it! It's all about control.
Posted by E. Vattal on Fri 8 Jan 2010 at 03:58 PM
Okay CWP, I will bite. What if the particular climatologists (I make that distinction because there are Climatologists that think man made GW is bunk) that you speak of are right. In fifty or so years we will have warmer temps less polar ice and higher sea levels. We have had that before and we will have that again. If you have a house on the coast you may think about selling at some point and buying new ocean front property in say. Oklahoma. Also, if you believe that GW will wipe off large populations of humans, then duh problem solved. Less humans= less GW. The earth still survives. By the way, lest you think I am heartless, read on to the end of this diatribe.
As for your fossil fuel/electric car crapolla, you have now stepped into my realm. You say world production is at its peak. That is one you just pulled out of your arse. In 2009 there were massive finds of petroleum all over the world. Some of the richest finds were in the Gulf of Mexico, Montana, and Brazil. We are talking HUGE amounts of petrol.
But let’s just say you are right and we begin rapidly running out of oil gas and coal. The technologies to capture, wind, solar, geothermal, nuclear, methane ice, bio fuels etc will continue to develop and improve. They are already becoming marketable on their own merits and will continue to do so. As one resource becomes scarce, another resource is developed. (Seen any natural latex tires lately? How about whale oil lamps?)
What is heartless is what the global warming alarmists are trying to do. If in fact, cap and trade is passed, and some of the global treaties are signed, millions if not billions will die. Why? Because the energy to produce all the stuff that feeds the world will become too expensive, food will become more scarce and expensive. You cannot throw that much of a monkey wrench into the system and expect that everything will run just fine. That is not fear-mongering, it is fact. We began to see a taste of this last year when oil broke over the $150/bbl mark.
If you want to guarantee massive suffering and famine, then go on with your tax the hell out of coal agenda. You may deem that an okay price to pay to make sure that people don’t lose their beachfronts, but I don’t. This is why you have to be 100% sure that man made GW is real. You also better be darn sure that it is really CO2 that is causing the problem. If it is say… cow farts and you stop co2 emissions but don’t extinguish all cows, then you have killed a bunch of people in the early 2000 teens and then killed a bunch more people when GW happens anyway.
What we are seeing from our current political climate is rash decisions made with no willingness to debate the facts. Open the books, bring out the raw data, and show us how you come to your conclusions. If your facts are sound and your methods are true, then by all means lets save the planet. But when someone hides their facts and their methods, I tend not to believe their conclusions. I am just funny that way.
Posted by Gene Craig on Fri 8 Jan 2010 at 04:14 PM
I observe a split in the ranks of the denialists. One segment, exemplified by the TV weathermen featured here, deny outright that any climate change is occurring. That's because they are trained to have a time horizon of no more than a week or so.
Another segment is acknowledging the fact of climate change, which is becoming increasingly apparent all around us. They argue that human activity has nothing to do with it, but that any change is entirely natural. I foresee that segment further splitting between those who argue for natural causes, and others who will call climate change, and especially the negative effects of it, the judgment of a righeous god.
It's going to be similar to the European response to the plague in the Middle Ages. There were early doctors and scientists who groped for causes and remedies, and there were others who saw divine intervention.
Posted by CWP on Fri 8 Jan 2010 at 04:24 PM
I see the Left is still sucking the AGW teat in spite of Climategate. La-la-la-la-la-la-la. I can't hear you! Filthy lying maggot swill. And the putrid stench passed off as "Law Enforcement" can't be bothered to investigate the fraud which has wasted hundreds of millions of tax dollars. The Major Unpleasantness is coming, and you won't like it.
Posted by Mark on Fri 8 Jan 2010 at 04:26 PM
axel -
*Global cooling? Now your contrarianism is forcing you to embarrass yourself.
You haven't actually given me an example of how all those institutes are implicated. You have obviously not looked at the link from factcheck I posted.*
If 1998 was the hottest year on record, there is global cooling obviously.
It doesn't matter if you attempt statistical rhetoric like, `the 2000-2009 decade [not a decade, but nevertheless] was the warmest on record.'
the planet is cooling.
further: Factcheck. So what? I must have missed that, but I've never seen anyone appoint them as the arbiter of truth.
Clearly, the piece there has no idea what he or she is talking about.
About the most hilarious part is at the end when s/he says that the climategate emails `have the public confused', since only 25% of respondents in one survey believe that global warming is a problem.
I'm surprised it's that high, and the reason is simple: the planet is cooling.
come back when you have something substantive to say, Axel, not just global-cooling denial.
You either haven't looked at any of the emails; or you have, and are lying now.
Either you are ignorant or dishonest.
Posted by R.B. Glennie on Fri 8 Jan 2010 at 04:31 PM
I missed this gem:
*The Academies of Science from 19 different countries all endorse the consensus. ...*
Was this before or after the fraudulent work of the CRU was revealed?
it is, in any case, just an appeal to authority: it's like saying `Genesis Verse 2' says, no more.
it's not science; it's anti-science.
When you have some facts to present, why don't you start commenting.
Posted by R.B. Glennie on Fri 8 Jan 2010 at 04:33 PM
@Gene Craig, the same guy who correctly called the peaking of U.S. production (notwithstanding the Alaska discoveries) has predicted the near-term peaking of world production. Yes, there have been big new discoveries, but existing large fields are in increasingly steep decline. No one will know the peak on the day it happens, but I think it's going to happen pretty soon.
You are a tad bit blithe about the issue of sea level rises, given that so much of the earth's human population lives near coastlines. And if they all move to Oklahoma, where are they going to find any water? Oklahoma, and in fact much of the Great Plains, is locked in a long-term drought masked by increased depletion of the Ogallala Aquifer, and resulting dropping of water tables.
The Himalaya glaciers provide water to 3 billion people. If they disappear, it's going to be a problem. It will also be a problem if the Colorado River keeps drying up. Starting this year, Arizona will see the first reduction of allocations. It's a harbinger of things to come. And there are 100 million Mexicans living in a place with a growing water problem. We can't build a big enough wall to keep 'em out if they start moving. Not even the Minuteman Militias can handle it.
I am not as far apart from you on the substitution side of things. I happen to think that the revival of classical economics was a positive contribution of the Reagan years. That said, there has always been a role for governments to play in moving things along.
I'm not sure about cap-and-trade or the specifics of any other proposals. But I think that the denialists are increasingly desperate and absurd. Evidence of human-caused climate change has accumulated. To the extent that you offer nothing but invective, it shows that you really don't have any defense against the facts on the ground, in the water, and in the air.
Posted by CWP on Fri 8 Jan 2010 at 04:37 PM
*Okay, could you please proofread your posts?*
Get right on that teach.
*Anyway: Yes I am. They are not allowed to tout anecdotes as evidence. What they are allowed to do is give it its due weight in discussions - very low. But they have more under their belt, unlike the hysterics waving the "Climategate" flag.*
There is no climate science, period.
Whatever `findings' any climate-scientists has come up with, have been irredeemably spoilt by the fraudulent practices at CRU, and that implicate the much broader range of c-c scientists that you keep implicating as `proof' that global-cooling doesn't exist.
Anecdotes is all that the hysterics relied upon before the weather stopped cooperating with them and became cool.
Posted by R.B. Glennie on Fri 8 Jan 2010 at 04:38 PM
*I remember the "ice age" hysteria of the 1970s. It turns out that this was a media artifact, a misinterpretation of climate science of the time. Climatologists were not predicting a new ice age; the media of that era pounced on a small portion of their work and ran with it. For skeptics to be denouncing climatology on this basis is wrong.*
Fail!
In fact, scientists focussing on the climate WERE convinced that the planet was cooling, whatever trash articles in the Skeptical Inquirer have to say.
In fact, the very article in question undermines its own premise (ie. no consensus about global cooling) in the 1970s when it states that `the prevailing view at the time was that the planet was cooling.'
Garbage, garbage, and more garbage.
Posted by R.B. Glennie on Fri 8 Jan 2010 at 04:42 PM
Alternative energy sources are not "crapola." Several of them work well. Photovoltaic panels are one of them. Another is wind. The U.S. is blessed with a lot of windy places and a lot of sunny places. Also, ground-source heat pumps have been used for a long time in some places, and their could easily be expanded to reduce energy consumption for HVAC purposes by 30%-40%.
The issue with all of those technologies is that there is a considerable installation cost. A new oil or gas furnace, installed, costs $5,000 or $6,000. A ground-source heat pump, which requires both a heat exchanger and the digging of 75 feet of trench, 6 feet deep, costs $15,000 to $20,000. This is where government can play a role, by subsidizing the heat pumps and financing it with a sharing of energy cost savings.
There is also a role for nuclear. There are new technologies than can quintuple the amount of energy extracted from uranium. The reactors are in place, so there's every reason to use the new technology. It's not as if we'll go entirely to renewables in the near term. But the transition needs to be speeded up. Government has made infrastructure investments in the past; this would be just another form.
Despise Al Gore to your heart's content. He's not exactly my favorite politician either. But that's beside the point. Look at the realities, and deal with them, or the realities will deal with us.
Posted by CWP on Fri 8 Jan 2010 at 04:50 PM
"If 1998 was the hottest year on record, there is global cooling obviously."
*Laughter*
http://skepticalscience.com/1998-DIY-Statistics.html
They take you by the hand and show you why you are wrong. To prove you clicked the link, you will have to tell me who wrote it and how many images of graphs he posted. Then you will show me how you can still hold the position that 1998 was the hottest year (never mind the fact that 1998 was at the end of El Nino and the start of La Nina - you failed to point that out, showing you for the amateur you are).
"Once you count for the El Nino and solar cycles then you can see that something with a period longer than 10 years (and from that graph, longer than 60 years) is warming us. The rest of this site shows a lot of the evidence as to why scientists believe this effect is greenhouse gases, rather than anything else."
There are no sincere AGW skeptics.
"Factcheck. So what? I must have missed that, but I've never seen anyone appoint them as the arbiter of truth."
Did you or did you not click the link? Factcheck are independent investigators. I have to ask because I think you are a troll at this stage. Their workings are there - but all you do is bandy about your convictions. Weak.
"You either haven't looked at any of the emails; or you have, and are lying now."
Yeah, factcheck went through the emails. You aren't showing your work, so all your claims are defunct.
"Was this before or after the fraudulent work of the CRU was revealed?"
Even if we removed the work of the scientists you accuse and removed all the work that featured the data you claim is useless, I would still have a foundation to stand on. Also, you have yet to show how the illegal CRU hack actually shows any skirting or avoidance of scientific winnowing, so your claims are in bad faith.
There are no actual skeptics among the AGW "skeptics".
"Whatever `findings' any climate-scientists has come up with, have been irredeemably spoilt by the fraudulent practices at CRU"
You've yet to explain what the e-mails showed. Factcheck has looked through them and can't implicate any scientists, not even the ones conversating. You are still not talking in good faith and are also being arrogant and slanderous.
There are no AGW skeptics worth listening to. None of them knows how best to focus their minds for the improvement of society, and none of them are ready to do the necessary work to found their accusations on.
"Anecdotes is all that the hysterics relied upon before the weather stopped cooperating with them and became cool."
http://skepticalscience.com/global-warming-stopped-in-1998.htm
"The planet has continued to accumulate heat since 1998 - global warming is still happening. Nevertheless, surface temperatures show much internal variability due to heat exchange between the ocean and atmosphere. 1998 was an unusually hot year due to a strong El Nino."
It will never be a hot year everywhere for a good while, and there will be no comparatively cooler years over the whole planet. You are not thinking well or thoroughly - I'm still your superior.
Me, the author of the piece and CWP are the most skeptical people here.
Posted by Axel Edgren on Fri 8 Jan 2010 at 04:55 PM
CWP
By your logic, you want to keep people from dying from the plague, by starving them to death first.
BTW- Global warming yes or no is not a popularity contest. It either is or isn't happening. If it is happening it either is or is not manmade.
Let's take the side that it is happening and it is manmade. If everyone in the world does not believe it is happening, it does not change the fact that it is.
As a skeptic, I am not for or against. I just want the truth. I am convinced that the ones behind the manmade GW agenda are not interested in the truth. They are interested in furthering the agenda, truth be damned. The evidence for that is what we now know as "Climate gate," and those who will not reveal facts and data. I have not seen one person in the manmade camp that continues to argue with the facts. We get personal insults like; “Tin foil hat wearing." "Conspiracy Theorist" "Flat earthers,” and my favorite is "The science is settled."
Science is not settled on anything. We discover new stuff all the time that changes the way we once considered things to be.
Several of us "skeptics" have listed a number scientific concepts that could either be causing global warming naturally, causing us to miss-interpret the data, or otherwise blow holes in the manmade co2 gw theory. None of you pro warming guys have come back with any refutations or actual facts or data. You guys are the ones running on faith and not facts. Get some irrefutable facts and get back to us.
Posted by Gene Craig on Fri 8 Jan 2010 at 04:56 PM
The only religion being spoken here is the unshakable faith in A.G.W. "Al Gore's Whopper" even after all the natural historical climate facts are documented and explained - and all the natural emissions facts are demonstrated vs man's - plus the exact same changes on other planets are shown. And even after the repeated and widespread systematic FRAUD on behalf of the AGW people is laid bare for all to see.
Shameless, True Cool-Aid Drinking Faithers. . .
How about this one last point: We are 10,500 years into this inter-glacial period. The avg interglacial period is 10k with a few (but not many) going a little beyond that. Ice ages last 100k- 150k years on avg. Now realizing that we are likely in our last century or two of so called balmy weather, what are the chances in 150 years people will be complaining that we gave them a few extra shirt-sleeve weather days each summer?
ZERO - ZERO - ZERO
Posted by E. Vattal on Fri 8 Jan 2010 at 04:56 PM
Okay I read Mark Richardson’s web page. It is very interesting and it drives my point even further. Once you take your raw data and you adjust for shade, sun, earth’s tilt (that is seasons for those of you that are meteorologists or don’t have a PHD in something), El Niño, la Nina you have barely begun. Now you have to adjust for Volcanic activity, population of cud chewing creatures, population of flora, solar magnetic pole reversals, earth magnetic polar reversals, simultaneous earth and solar magnetic polar reversals, meteor splash downs (how big was the meteor?), wildfires, air pollution, tsunami’s, elliptical solar orbit’s, solar flares, sun spots, and solar winds, then you divide by pi and that concludes that without a doubt man made global warming exists and it is specifically caused by CO2. Wow I am impressed at what computers can do now.
The guys who started this crap were armed with a powerful TI-50 calculator at the time. Yep the science is settled and I am just a rube.
Posted by Gene Craig on Fri 8 Jan 2010 at 05:25 PM
@Gene Craig, I don't think you're a skeptic. I think you're a denialist. You don't think the climate is changing, and you have nothing but invective and personal attack against those who do.
Posted by CWP on Fri 8 Jan 2010 at 06:32 PM
I am a successful contrarian investor. I bet in favor of Reagan's policies in 1982, and in favor of Clinton's policies in 1993. I bet against the Internet bubble in late 1999, and I bet against the U.S. dollar after Bush took office in 2001. Along the way, I studied AGW as a potential contrarian bet.
One of the things I did was read "The Skeptical Environmentalist," by Bjorn Lomberg. I thought it was politically tendentious junk. It was interesting to me that Lomborg eventually abandoned his denialism. His subsequent arguments against doing anything about AGW are just as flawed as his original denialism, but at least he recognizes the reality of warming.
In any case, I am thoroughly familiar with the pitfalls of conventional wisdom and the power of group-think. But a smart contrarian is a careful contrarian. Most of the time, the consensus ("conventional wisdom") is correct. To make a contrarian bet and win, you need to be well-versed in the subject and not swayed by emotions, so you can find that one-quarter or so of situations when the crowd is wrong.
I don't think AGW is one of those situations. There is simply too much evidence, from too many disparate sources, to dismiss it. "Climategate" is a tempest in a teapot; the e-mails show scientists reacting to willful ignorance, and occasionally going too far in doing so. Nothing in "Climategate" even remotely disproves the AGW theory. It's simply too strong.
The worrisome thing that is that pro-AGW bets will only work if we do something about it. If we don't handle it, then short of buying up land in northern Saskatchewan, there isn't a whole lot of upside here. Ordinarily, I'd laugh at Gene Craig and E. Vattal and tell them to buy a house in Tampa, but the stakes are just too high.
Frankly, I don't think there's a whole lot of time left to deal effectively with AGW. The climate models are proving to be conservative. There are synergistic effects at play. For instance, when you thaw out the permafrost, you release methane. This is already happening; I have been to Siberia and seen lakes bubbling there with methane being released. I've been to the suburbs of Beijing that are being abandoned because of the megadrought there.
Tucson, Arizona will be one of the first big U.S. cities to go, followed by Phoenix and Las Vegas. The drowning of the big cities of the East Coast will probably be a 22nd Century phenomenon, but you never know. What really worries me most is what happens as the Himalayan glaciers dry up. They support most of the great rivers of Asia, which support billions of people.
The U.S., Europe, Japan, China, India, and Brazil hold the future in their hands, and of those, the U.S. has the most clout. It is very worrisome to see the political system in deadlock in the face of this clear long-term threat to our civilization. People never think it can happen to them, until it's too late.
Posted by CWP on Fri 8 Jan 2010 at 07:15 PM
By the way, no trend line goes in the same direction all the time. There are cycles within cycles, and reversals within trends. The key is that the links between atmospheric CO2 and warming have been proven; the links between industrialization and CO2 generation have been proven; and the links between industrialization and warming have been documented.
Of course industrialization isn't the only factor in climate change or we'd never have had any ice ages. But the change since WWII has been too great to ignore by world historical standards. If we don't do something about this, we're going to Darwin ourselves back into the Stone Age.
This has happened to other civilizations for different reasons, but the underlyhing reality is the same: We are outstripping the carrying ability of the environment.
Posted by CWP on Fri 8 Jan 2010 at 07:54 PM
CWP
Nothing in "Climategate" even remotely disproves the AGW theory. It's simply too strong.
If carbon dioxide is driving warming, as AGW theory claims, why does the geologic record show temperatures rising hundreds of years before CO2 levels start rising? How do you know the cause and effect is not reversed?
Since AGW theory is so strong, I'm sure you'll have no trouble providing incontrovertible evidence.
Posted by Bradley J. Fikes on Fri 8 Jan 2010 at 09:53 PM
Opinions are like a**holes, everybody has one. Axel Edgren is bang on. Those that align themselves in the ludicrous "skeptical" side of the equation are anything but true skeptics. Climatologists throughout the world have been studying this notion of global warming/climate change for not just the last few years, but the last few centuries. Here is a timeline of the theory when it was one: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/climate-change/a-climate-change-timeline/article1383242/
Any short-sighted notion of denial is just that and simply not worth responding to.
Posted by J-M on Fri 8 Jan 2010 at 10:30 PM
Well, that's twice I've asked the AGW crowd this question: How do we know for sure that CO2 is driving warming now, since historically C02 increases have lagged warming by hundreds of years?
Since Axel and J-M are so certain of AGW theory, I eagerly await their proof.
Posted by Bradley J. Fikes on Fri 8 Jan 2010 at 10:39 PM
A little off topic, but for those interested here is a link to an article reviewing the practices of Lawrence Solomon on wikipedia:
http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/fpcomment/archive/2009/12/19/lawrence-solomon-wikipedia-s-climate-doctor.aspx?CommentPosted=true
I'm with the skeptics. When dealing with people with a clear agenda and a demonstrated willingness to silence skeptics it's always best to be wary and look for independent confirmation.
Posted by Graham on Fri 8 Jan 2010 at 11:14 PM
Another interesting read: Richard S. Lindzen, professor of meteorology at MIT, on climate change:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703939404574567423917025400.html
Posted by Graham on Fri 8 Jan 2010 at 11:58 PM
Infant Erin Ugg Boots
Posted by ugg boots on Sat 9 Jan 2010 at 12:09 AM
If one must have an advanced degree in climatology to intelligently discuss the issue, as the author suggests, then I guess we can ignore Al Gore and every politician that wants to impose a global warming agenda.
Isn't it interesting that the global warming crowd has had to recharacterize its argument to account for the frigid weather over the last few years. We're now suposed to refer to global warming as "climate change."
Posted by Big J on Sat 9 Jan 2010 at 01:00 AM
Hello. I'm one of about two dozen meteorologists where I work. Most if not all of us believe AGW is at least exaggerated. You would be wise to speak with NASA scientist Dr Roy Spencer and MIT professor Richard Lindzen. Ask them about "positive feedback." Jason
Posted by Jason on Sat 9 Jan 2010 at 01:24 AM
Fascinating article - thank you Charles Homans! And wouldn't it be nice if we could hold a rational discussion in the comments - which, obviously, isn't possible at present. Maybe just have a comment-form checkbox for "global warming: yes or no", and let us filter on that...?
Posted by Anna Haynes on Sat 9 Jan 2010 at 02:49 AM
It may take some time to them to accept the harsh reality of climate change. Climate change is a slow phenomena. It took years to reach this point.
http://ezinearticles.com/?Force-Factor-Reviews---Do-Force-Factor-Supplements-Work?&id=2921490
Posted by Nelson on Sat 9 Jan 2010 at 05:31 AM
R U ready for the coming Ice age? Since the 1890's the media and alarmists have predicted an Ice Age twice, and burning up twice, here comes the ice age again...by the way, John Holdren, Obama's Science Czar (look up the definition of a Czar) went with the ice age theory earlier in his career and Obama today has the CIA spying on ice bergs again.....look back at the predictions by Holdren of 1 Billion people dieing in an Ice age in 2020, and you will see why the skeptics are rolling their eyes globally, while the Kool-aid drinkers don't know whether to get a swim suit or make fur coats out of all the Polar Bears Al Gore killed off. The new animal Du Jour by the way is the Iguana, not the Polar Bear, so all you PC freaks now need to change your mantra please. Iguanas are falling out of the trees like rain because they are cold blooded and loose their grips in the cold weather the new ice age is bringing in...any body seen John Galt anywhere yet? Get some popcorn, this should be a great movie in Mexico City!
http://www.iceagenow.com/
Meteorologist predicts global cooling
Fears of imminent ice age to replace warming alarm?
Posted: January 09, 2010
12:00 am Eastern
Accuweather meteorologist Joe Bastardi
Fears of a new ice age not seen since the 1970s are arising in the aftermath of the "Climategate" scandal that has cast doubt on the legitimacy of scientific research forming the basis for the theory that mankind is causing an ultimately catastrophic rise in temperatures worldwide.
Accuweather meteorologist Joe Bastardi has produced a video suggesting the current frigid conditions in North America, Europe and Asia are very similar to the weather patterns in the 1970s that produced fears a new ice age was imminent.
In the video, Bastardi explains his theory that "weather goes in a lot of cycles, and we're going to see a lot more of the cold trending here over the next 20 or 30 years."
Previously reported was that President Obama's science czar John Holdren was among the scientists who predicted 1 billion people would die in "carbon-dioxide induced" famines in a coming new ice age by 2020.
In the 1970s, Holdren's theme was that government-mandated population control was essential to prevent "eco-disasters" such as the forecast ice age. Today, Holdren urges immediate passage of the Obama administration's cap-and-trade legislation to control carbon emissions before it is too late to save the planet from "global warming."
Malthusian population alarmist Paul Ehrlich in his 1986 book "The Machinery of Nature" announced Holdren's prediction that 1 billion people would die from a global cooling "eco-disaster."
Holdren based his prediction on a theory that human emissions of carbon dioxide would produce a climate catastrophe in which global warming would lead to global cooling, with a consequent reduction in agricultural production causing widespread disaster.
On pages 273-274 of "The Machinery of Nature," Ehrlich explained Holdren's theory by arguing "some localities will probably become colder as the warmer atmosphere drives the climactic engine faster, causing streams of frigid air to move more rapidly away from the poles." (Emphasis in original text.)
The movement of the frigid air from the poles caused by global warming "could reduce agricultural yields for decades or more – a sure recipe for disaster in an increasingly overpopulated world," Ehrlich wrote.
Holdren and Ehrlich previously articulated the theory in their 1973 textbook "Human Ecology: Problems and Solutions" in which they argued on page 198 that the main effect of carbon-dioxide-induced global warming "might be to speed up circulation patterns and to bring arctic cold farther south and Antarctic cold farther north."
CIA predicted new ice age in 1970s
A 1977 book, "The Weather Conspiracy: The Coming of the New Ice Age," featured a lead quote from a CIA report claiming, "The weather we call normal is in fact highly abnormal. … There is growing consensus among leading climatologists that the world is undergoing a cooling trend … excellent historical evidence exists from areas on the European plains … [researchers hypothesize that] the change from an interglacial to glacial time period could take place in less than 200 years."
The book focused on colder winters in the 1970s as proof a new ice age was imminent.
"The winter of 1977 was something else again," the first chapter began. "For two-thirds of the United States it was the coldest winter on record."
The book then cited British science author Nigel Calder's belief "that the new snow age is upon us, that our ten-thousand-year warm period has run out, that the odds are only twenty to one against an ice age's beginning in the next hundred years."
After predicting ice would soon cover most countries in the world, including most of the U.S., the authors wrote: "If Calder's calculations are accurate, more than half the earth's inhabitants could die of hunger, and more than a dozen countries could be wiped off the face of the earth."
Hot Air ?
http://www.accuweather.com/video-on-demand.asp?video=60571000001&channel=VBLOG_BASTARDI&title=Worldwide%20Cold%20Not%20Seen%20since%20%2770s%20Ice%20Age%20Scare
Who is John Galt? Save the Iguanas!
Posted by Albert J on Sat 9 Jan 2010 at 05:49 AM
Axel, By the way, Factcheck.org is owned and run solely by the Annenberg Foundation. Members of it's Board include Omaba and Terrorist Wild Bill Ayers, who helped bomb an NYC police station and the Pentagon, and right after 9/11 wrote an OPED saying he regretted he didn't make more bombs and kill more people. I would not put any large stock into what is said in Wikipedia, who allowed climate posts to be scrubbed of all mentions of the Medieval Warming Period and skeptical posts about AGW, or Factcheck.org, which is a propaganda arm of the Socialists that want carbon taxes to gain global power, as clearly stated by some members of the EU recently. Gordon Brown of the UK even wants to create a global Enviro police force!
Axel, explain to the herd about the Medieval Warming Period, and how the CRU co-conspirators from EAU and Penn State, et al. tried to hide it? What does it do to your AGW theory caused by CO2, Hmmmm?
Then explain how a teen aged girl from Canada busted James Hansen of NASA for fudging his GISS data inputs. Hansen has been caught several times since then manipulating data, embarrassing NASA, but bringing in millions in budget money to study the hysteria manufactured hoax that we are all gonna die from AGW.
Then explain the alarmists latest ploy, "Well, we can't tie the freezing weather to climate because weather is localized." Huh? Climate is localized also, which is why Antarctica has historically had the opposite trends as North America. So the idea that a "Global" computer model can tie together all the micro climates and weather patterns and predict 50 to 100 years from now what will happen (when no one predicted today's weather patterns just 3 months ago) is patently absurd! At least according to your own Kool-aid drinker alarmist crowd now.
Give it up, come over to the snow board crowd! Save the Iguanas for a change!
Who is guarding the guards?
Who is John Galt?
Posted by Albert J on Sat 9 Jan 2010 at 06:12 AM
Anna, What is rational about imposing carbon taxes to the tune of trillions in the end, harming poor people the most, in order to enrich and empower the EU and the UN? The head of the UN climate panel owns a company in India that stands to make billions of $$$ from carbon trading! Albert Gore Jr.'s net worth has gone from 7 Mil to more then $ 110 mil since he left the Vice Presidency, mostly due to Big Green and Carbon trading companies.
CO2 is the plant food we will need to feed the estimated extra 3 billion people that will be here by 2050. What is rational about converting to Hydrogen fuel cells that emit water vapor, water vapor being more than 90% of green house gases? And Hydrogen is just a battery to store energy, much less efficient than a regular electrical battery. Why not just use electrical batteries and improve on them. Hydrogen is highly explosive. What is rational about switching to that? What is rational about exponentially ramping up electrical waste, when we currently can't recycle what we have, and the heavy metals are polluting water tables around the world as it is? Where do you think the Electrical power to charge the batteries comes from anyway? What do power plants run on? Want to switch to nuclear power? That waste sticks around for more than 25,000 years! No one can safely dispose of it. How is all that rational?
This CO2 hoax has been driven by media hysteria, grant money, and calculating politicians and their business cronies utilizing the Cascade Theory to make the majority of people believe the science is sound and settled, when clearly rational minds can see that it is neither settled nor clear. Since the Globe has not been warming for more than a decade now (take a look out side your windows please), what is rational about rushing via the Cascade Theory to implement Trillions in Carbon taxes, when both the CRU and GISS data bases have been corrupted (which all Alex's so called "facts" are based on), and when no computer model to date can properly reverse engineer backwards to match previous climate changes?
Hey is a rational Challenge. Use any climate computer model to predict what will happen in 2011. Remember the extreme hurricanes were we supposed to have in 2009! the USA had Zero land falls in 2009. Repeat ZERO!
You want rational, get the CRU data base redone with "real" data this time including the Medieval Warming Period, and exclude tree ring data, which any rational scientist will tell you is dubious at best. Since the globe is clearly not warming currently there is plenty of time to do this. If the co-conspirators working on the CRU database had not deleted so much of the data, it would of course be easier to rebuild it, but then we would catch them in their lies and manipulations also.
Here is a rational question for you. If we are all gonna die, like Albert Gore Jr. says, wouldn't he give up his 4 mansions, his limos and flying around on private jets? And if it is was really true, why would he invest in a boat named the BS-1? How rational is that?
Who is Guarding the Guards?
Where is John Galt when we need him anyway? Save the Iguanas!
Posted by Albert J on Sat 9 Jan 2010 at 06:40 AM
Alex, Here is your X-files.
Listen to the President of the EU himself talk about how we need a global governance now because of AGW (ie., he needs taxes to have power and the EU has the established Carbon Trading facility). These carbon trades stand to grow in net worth from current billions to trillions if Carbon Taxes are enacted globally, and enforced by Gordon Brown's Enviro Police.
The new EU President, Herman Van Rompuy, has proclaimed 2009 as the “first year of global governance.” During Rompuy’s intervention as President on November 19th, he stated,
“2009 is also the first year of global governance, with the establishment of the G20 in the middle of the financial crisis. The climate conference in Copenhagen is another step towards the global management of our planet.”
From the BBC:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hXWeOa-FuyM&feature=player_embedded
I can give you the URLs to validate the Head of the UN Climate Panel's company in India stands to make billions if you like? Ready for snowboarding yet? Look out side your windows.
Who is Guarding the Guards?
Who is John Galt? Save the Iguanas!
Posted by Albert J on Sat 9 Jan 2010 at 07:02 AM
CWP:
If climatologists were to build a bridge, or forecast the weather in Chicago on January 14, 2016, then their data sets should be examined microscopically. But that's not what they are doing. They are forecasting broad trends. A different standard of accuracy should be applied.
No, CWP, I think you're goofing here. This particular mistake is common in this whole "climate" discussion. And, I personally think, is something we all do because of the way our minds work. Rather like the logical equivalent of optical illusions.
Please bear with me. I'm neither word-smith nor teacher. I'll try to explain.
I'm a bird. Tweet. :) I really, really care about the what the wind will do 10 seconds from now. I build a bunch of computers and gather a lot of data and, viola, I get pretty good predicting the wind 10 seconds out. Not so good 10 hours out. But there it is. You can't have everything.
On the other hand, I'm very, very good at predicting the weather. In fact, I rarely am wrong about it. The weather is almost perfectly predictable. 10 seconds - no minutes - out.
So - and here's where I mislead myself - I think weather must be predictable 10 days out. After all, it's a glacially slow process and very, very predictable as we birds all know.
Yes, climatologists are forecasting broad trends. But broad trends are only broad from the point of view of meteorologists - not climatologists. If, let's say, "climate" doesn't happen in any interesting way in under 50 years, then a 50 year time frame is not "broad." It is, in fact, instantaneous. The shortest period of time possible. By definition.
We must remember not to trick ourselves by switching the scale of things inside our thoughts without realizing we are doing so. Remembering this does not come naturally.
To your other point that, what the heck, even if "global warming" is bogus, we can get a lot of good things from the green tech, etc. etc. So, where's the down side?
Is that a good summary?
Well, the issue isn't whether a green electric car is a "good thing". It's whether that electric car is better than the alternative. That's a higher bar to jump. And as a contrarian investor (a person after my own heart), I'm guessing you'd rather not have someone else decide the answer to that question for you.
Posted by Felix on Sat 9 Jan 2010 at 07:21 AM
Since Anna wants a rational discussion (Not much about man made global warming and imposing Trillions of $$$ taxes is rational), here is a rational topic for discussion.
What is a climatologist? Scientifically, rationally speaking, what is a climatologist?
I believe if Charles Homans took the time to investigate this, he will be shocked as will most of you AGWist proponents. Perhaps this is why the smoke and mirrors game of blaming weathermen for not drinking the Al Gore Kool-aid?
According to CNN, Daryl Hanna is a Climate expert. Albert Gore Jr. certainly thinks he is an expert.
But from a scientific rational perspective, what is a "climatologist" exactly? What skills does one need scientifically to be a "scientific expert climatologist"? Hmmm.
Let's list them all out, correct me if a leave about 20 or 30 scientific disciplines and field out please;
Computer programing
Statistician
Chemistry
Physics
Astrophysics (I was amazed to find out due to climate studies we only just found out the link between Cosmic Rays and cloud formation! Cool! or Warm! or, we don';t know yet?)
Meteorology
Archeology
Paleontology
Geology
Geophysics
Biology
OK, I know I've left most of the fields out, but you get the point. The idea that there are single "climate" climate experts is patently absurd. As absurd as thinking a simple computer model can globally predict the climate 50 to 100 years from now, when the existing models can't backwards calibrate to known climate variations properly. One computer model didn't even perform as well as another that was run with a random number generated data base!
Charles, if you want to make all the weathermen climate experts, first start by making the climatologists experts in all fields needed to be "an expert". You should be through about, ohhhh 2100, when we can see if those computer models are correct or not.
If you AGWers are correct, where's the warming? The Globe has been cooling for over a decade now. Where's the heat? Show us the heat! We have all been putting out a bunch of hot air CO2 this last decade. So, where's the heat?
Who is John Galt? Is he still hiding from all the Looters, Moochers and Whiners?
Posted by Albert J on Sat 9 Jan 2010 at 07:30 AM
Felix, "So What the Heck, let's impose Trillions in taxes for some bogus Hoax because we might get some cool gadgets?"
If they are such cool gadgets, they will get made anyway, whether you believe in some hoax or, not.
The issue is really, you and your herd want to call the plant food we need to boost crop efficiencies by at lest 30% by 2050 to feed all the world's poor and starving a pollutant for no good rational sound scientific reason.
Your arguments and statements are starting to leap of the pages of Atlas Shrugged just like Charles Homan's article.
However, your statements and arguments are rational if you just want to empower the Looters, Moochers and Whiners of the world. Because who knows, they might come up with a cool gadget if we give them Trillions of tax dollars.So, just admit to your real agenda, and you will become "rational", and make Anna happy again.
Save the Iguanas! John Galt is texting now......
Posted by Albert J on Sat 9 Jan 2010 at 07:44 AM
CWP, here is a real easy thing to do, with out imposing Trillions of taxes on those who can least afford it. And all you NASA fans will love it, as it is a NASA suggestion. The Only trouble with it is it will not make Billions for the Looters, Moochers and Whiners on the Cap and Trader band wagon.
Remove Soot from the atmosphere! It is proven, it works and it does wonders for the inhabitants of the country (look at the difference between 1900 and today in London for example), and it is easy to implement. We don't need the EU, the UN or Al Gore to do it. (Perhaps that is the biggest problem implementing this easy fix, yes?)
Step 1) Use cleaner fuel for power generators, Natural gas where possible, Oil or Clean Coal technology where not. Current Gas to Liquids shows great promise, Qatar Airlines is switching to it because if it's low soot factor. Not because Al Gore wants to tax them.
Step 2) Introduce low tech bio-methane generators for cooking with, see the CNN piece on one in Cairo, very cheap & easy to implement. Daily kitchen waste generates 1-2 hours cooking gas, and the final residue waste is high grade organic fertilizer. This will take the poor off of burning wood, coal and animal dung for cooking and warmth (although they will not need to stay warm now since "scientifically" we SUV drivers are burning up the planet). Which removes a lot of soot from the Atmosphere. Also, educate the poor away from Slash and Burn farming.
Step 3) Implement Diesel filters. This is mainly for local city governments to implement, and city dwellers will love it. Although, some international co-operation will be required for international train, vessel and truck routes. But they aren't that expensive to install and they make a huge difference in air quality. One of the arguments from Copenhagen was the Danish conveniently excluded all their polluting shipping industry from the Denmark "data", because it was out there some where in the ocean, not in Denmark.
So, there you have it, an (almost) rational idea, cheap and easy to implement, AND recommended by NASA and other reputable agencies globally. It is scientifically sound and verifiable, and it works universally every where it is implemented.
So why aren't you AGWers on this" remove the soot" band wagon, Hmmmm? Why do you want to start taxing plant food, when there are much easier steps to start with while we sort out the corrupt GWing data bases? Especially since the planet has been cooling for the last decade? Why the speed to force Trillions of taxes on everyone, when there is no sound rational reason yet to do so? If your real agenda is to save the planet from extinction?
Inquiring rational minds would like to know.
Posted by Albert J on Sat 9 Jan 2010 at 08:36 AM
Hey Felix, " To your other point that, what the heck, even if "global warming" is bogus, we can get a lot of good things from the green tech, etc. etc. So, where's the down side? "
If I come over the warmer side, and we tax the begessus out of the world for trillions of dollars to get a few gadgets that are cool, in spite of the hoax.....can I finally get the air cars that you guys were promising me back in the 1980's?
Posted by Albert J on Sat 9 Jan 2010 at 08:46 AM
Here is your Cascade Theory in Practice with AGW, and why the Hoax is so rampant; note the similarity to Charles Homan's attempt to portray Weathermen as Buffoons and Climatologist as "experts";
[ Intellectuals, of course, have expertise — highly specialized knowledge of a particular subject. The problem, according to Sowell, is that they think their superior knowledge in one area means they have superior knowledge in most other areas.] [ Climatologists have a background in one or maybe several scientific fields, but not even close to all that is needed to understand the complex nature of the earth's climate. In steps the "intellectuals, like Albert Gore Jr., and the Intellectual wannabe's from Hollywood, and you have your self a Cascade Theory AGW hoax. Which is by the way man made! Besides, we all know the climate changes, so why not just blame it on "people" and make them feel so guilty they will pay us money?]
What makes" Intellectuals and Society" even more withering than Johnson’s historical-biographical work is that Sowell approaches his subject as an economist, analyzing the incentives and constraints intellectuals face. Sowell defines intellectuals as an occupation, as people whose “work begins and ends with ideas.” This includes academics, especially those in the humanities and social sciences, policy wonks, and, to a certain extent, journalists. This distinguishes them from occupations in which the work begins with ideas and ends with the application of ideas. Physicians or engineers usually start with ideas about how to approach their work, but eventually they have to put them into practice by treating patients or constructing bridges.
As a result, intellectuals are free from one of the most rigorous constraints facing other occupations: external standards. An engineer will ultimately be judged on whether the structures he designs hold up, a businessman on whether he makes money, and so on. By contrast, the ultimate test of an intellectual’s ideas is whether other intellectuals “find those ideas interesting, original, persuasive, elegant, or ingenious. There is no external test.” If the intellectuals are like-minded, as they often are, then the validity of an idea depends on what those intellectuals already believe. This means that an intellectual’s ideas are tested only by internal criteria and “become sealed off from feedback from the external world of reality.”
An intellectual’s reputation, then, depends not on whether his ideas are verifiable but on the plaudits of his fellow intellectuals. That the Corvair was as safe as any other car on the road has not cut into Ralph Nader’s speaking fees, nor has the failure of hundreds of millions of people to starve to death diminished Paul Ehrlich’s access to grant money. They only have to maintain the esteem of the intelligentsia to keep the gravy train running.
Intellectuals, of course, have expertise — highly specialized knowledge of a particular subject. The problem, according to Sowell, is that they think their superior knowledge in one area means they have superior knowledge in most other areas. Yet knowledge is so vast and dispersed that it is doubtful that any one person has even 1 percent of the knowledge available. Even the brightest intellectuals cannot possibly know all the needs, wants, and preferences of millions of people. Unfortunately, they have considerable incentive to behave as if they do.
Sowell notes another important distinction between intellectuals and other professions. “There is a spontaneous demand from the larger society for the end products of engineering, medical and scientific professions,” he writes, “while whatever demand there is for the end products of linguists or historians comes largely from educational institutions or is created by intellectuals themselves.” Members of other professions can achieve fame and fortune by finding ways to meet the demand for their end products. But for intellectuals to prosper they must create demand for their ideas by stepping outside their areas of expertise to offer “solutions” to “social problems” or “by raising alarms over some dire dangers which they claim to have discovered.” Chances are slim that Noam Chomsky would ever have achieved the acclaim that he did if he had stayed in the field of linguistics instead of venturing into U.S. foreign policy, nor the entomologist Ehrlich if he had limited himself to studying butterflies rather than making gloomy predictions of human overpopulation.
Remember China at Copenhagen, and the Canadians jumping on the overpopulation band wagon? Iit's all the same ilk, and it's all the same template and play book .Looters, Moochers and Whiners. Force- by lawyers and taxes, got to feed/cloth/shelter the poor, and It's just not fair to (fill in the blanks). Meanwhile the Doers still move the world along, pulling the Looters, Moochers and Whiners on their backs. Most poor people I meet just want an honest chance at a good job, until the welfare pimps get to them and put them on the Whiner plantations for votes.
Who is John Galt?
Posted by Albert J on Sat 9 Jan 2010 at 09:59 AM
Hot Air Deluxe:
Record low temperatures in Cuba - 8 Jan 10
Sweden braces for near-record cold - 5 Jan 10
Deep freeze to continue across Europe - 7 Jan 10
Britain paralysed by snow and freezing weather -
Facing coldest winter in 100 years - 5 Jan 10
Record snowfall in Beijing could push up food prices - 4 Jan 10
Record snowfall in Seoul - worst since 1951 in Beijing - 4 Jan 10
Some Nebraska cities cut off - 8 Jan 10
131-year low in Key West - 8 Jan 10
Brutal cold hits Midwest, heads South - 7 Jan 10
Blizzard warning - South Dakota - 6 Jan 10
Record snow in Burlington, VT - 2-3 Jan 10
Snow drifts more than two stories tall
6 Jan 10 - Amtrak "Train From Hell" Delayed Almost 24 Hours
Millions across US endure record-setting cold
8 Jan 10 - Threatens $300 million worth of crops, from strawberries
and citrus fruits to tomatoes and green beans
Picture worth 100o's of words : http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_depth/8447023.stm
7 Jan 10 - Earth’s north magnetic pole is racing toward Russia at almost
40 miles a year.
Solar Geomagnetic Activity at all-time Low -
Only "zero" could be lower
Anyone with an understanding of climate history from the remote past knows that many of the developments that preceded past ice ages mimicked many of those we are seeing today — increases in violent weather, widespread deforestation by fire, increased volcanic activity — and all are warning signs that an ice age, little or great, is in the cards.
History shows that the planet has undergone ice ages on a regular schedule, 90 thousand years of glaciation followed by an inter-galacial period of 10 to 12 thousand years. The last ice age ended about 10 thousand years ago. Clearly, we are due for a new one any day now.
There are big bucks to be made in the global warming scam — government and privately funded grants available for touting the alleged heating of Mother Earth. Attacking the hoax doesn't pay well.
Who is John Galt?
Posted by Albert J on Sat 9 Jan 2010 at 10:16 AM
The AGW theory advocates here have repeatedly failed to answer a basic question at the heart of the theory they endorse with such certitude. I have posed it three times (and now four):
"How do we know for sure that CO2 is driving warming now, since historically C02 increases have lagged warming by hundreds of years?"
Posted by Bradley J. Fikes on Sat 9 Jan 2010 at 10:22 AM
here is an Atmospheric Expert and Dr. Niel Frank PHD, ex Hurricane center Director for NOAA:
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2010/01/03/dr-neil-frank-on-climategate-you-should-be-steamed/
Now that Copenhagen is past history, what is the next step in the man-made global warming controversy? Without question, there should be an immediate and thorough investigation of the scientific debauchery revealed by “Climategate.”
Climategate revelations Tip of giant iceberg
Atmospheric scientist Dr. William Gray
13 Dec 09 - (Excerpts) - Dr. William Gray, a renowned long range hurricane forecaster and Emeritus Professor of Atmospheric Science at Colorado State University wrote an op-ed for ClimateDepot.com on Tuesday.
Gray states that the last century's global warming of about 1 degree F is not a consequence of human activities. This warming is primarily the result of a multi-century changes in the globe's deep ocean circulation.
The recent 'ClimateGate' revelations coming out of the UK University of East Anglia are but the tip of a giant iceberg of a well organized international climate warming conspiracy that has been gathering momentum for the last 25 years, according to Gray.
Other points that Gray makes.........
--There has been an unrelenting quarter century of one-sided indoctrination of the western world by the media and by various scientists and governments concerning a coming carbon dioxide (CO2) induced global warming disaster.
--Restricting CO_2 emissions from the present by as much as 20 percent by 2020 and 80 percent by 2050 (as being proposed in Copenhagen) would cause very large increases in our energy costs, a lowering of our standard of living, and do nothing of significance to improve our climate.
--The global climate models predicting large amounts of global warming for a doubling of CO2 are badly flawed.
http://global-warming.accuweather.com/2009/12/climategate_revelations_are_bu.html
Where is John Galt? Is he saving the Iguanas yet?
Posted by Albert J on Sat 9 Jan 2010 at 10:29 AM
Bradley, I hear that like Iguanas, AGWers taste like Chicken, when confronted with real science. Don't hold your breath, their agenda is not about science or saving the planet. It's about looting with taxes, getting rich with carbon trading and getting more power. And the Hitchhikers like the Greenpeacers posting here are trying to Mooch off the Looters with guilt. Greenpeace recently rejected a great idea as bad, which is taking recycled plastic and turning it into fuel, utilizing more than 80% of the waste plastic. Why do you think Greenpeace is against this initiative, which took no guilt money or tax money to innovate? Hmmm?
PS, don't forget that less than 1/2 of CO2 emitted to the atmosphere actually stays in the atmosphere foe any period long enough to do anything. And what is the % of CO2 in the Atmosphere compared to a real green house gas, like Water Vapor?
Posted by Albert J on Sat 9 Jan 2010 at 10:39 AM
Albert J.
I hear you, loud and clear. Watching the AGW poseurs here duck a simple question that they supposedly should be able to knock out of the park is hilarious. They really don't understand the theory they're supporting. I'm sure some are frantically trying to research an answer to avoid being totally discredited. Good luck with that!
I write about science a lot, and used to be an AGW believer. I even wrote articles excoriating skeptics as corporate shills, like this one.
But more recently I've had doubts, because of competing explanations of warming that did not involve CO2, such as Henrik Svensmark's sun-based model.
And Climategate was the last straw. I read hundreds of the emails. I saw the smoking gun that doubts about AGW were being suppressed, in violation of all principles of good science. Here's one about the deliberate suppression of "dirty laundry" relating to the tree ring data by Michael Mann. So in private the leaders of AGW were admitting to problems with the evidence, while telling the public (who pays their wages) the science was settled.
That the AGW crowd would dismiss such blatant violations of scientific ethics says a lot about their willingness to subordinate science for political ends.
And for the fifth time I'll ask the AGW crowd here to give me a conclusive answer to this simple question, one that goes to the heart of the theory they claim to understand so well:
"How do we know for sure that CO2 is driving warming now, since historically C02 increases have lagged warming by hundreds of years?"
Posted by Bradley J. Fikes on Sat 9 Jan 2010 at 11:09 AM
"And for the fifth time I'll ask the AGW crowd here to give me a conclusive answer to this simple question, one that goes to the heart of the theory they claim to understand so well: "How do we know for sure that CO2 is driving warming now, since historically C02 increases have lagged warming by hundreds of years?""
And for the fifth time you show me that your skeptical faculties are only employed to a certain limit.
http://skepticalscience.com/co2-lags-temperature.htm
"CO2 causes temperature rise AND warming causes CO2 outgassing from oceans. This feedback system is confirmed by the CO2 record. In the past, the amplifying effect of CO2 feedback enabled warming to spread across the globe and take the planet out of the ice age."
It is clear to me none of your statements or positions are the results of investigations in good faith or otherwise justified in tone or content.
There are no humble or sympathetic AGW skeptics.
"The "decline" refers to the "divergence problem". This is where tree ring proxies diverge from modern instrumental temperature records after 1960. The divergence problem is discussed as early as 1998, suggesting a change in the sensitivity of tree growth to temperature in recent decades (Briffa 1998). It is also examined more recently in Wilmking 2008 which explores techniques in eliminating the divergence problem. So when you look at Phil Jone's email in the context of the science discussed, it is not the schemings of a climate conspiracy but technical discussions of data handling techniques available in the peer reviewed literature."
Once again - you are childishly quick to judge. This is a game to you, and a sport to me.
There are no AGW skeptics who aren't in it for judgmental satisfaction or the fake sensation of trumping infuriatingly superior people.
I will always be able to claim the higher ground. I will always be your superior in terms of skepticism. My reasons to doubt myself and mistrust you "skeptics" grow every day - soon I will be able to safely ignore you without culpability.
But for now, I am benign and remain hopeful some of you will learn humility.
Posted by Axel Edgren on Sat 9 Jan 2010 at 11:54 AM
See, Albert J, you speculate.
You resort to anti-left bigotry - implicating people of rank and hidden designs, without showing proof.
Lazy sophistry, just like what your messiah, Rand, offered the world.
Conspiracies, concepts such as parasitism bandied about, wild rhetoric. Facts? No, an AGW proponent can not offer facts, because he is connected to a conspiracy somehow.
If one were to enter an objectivist's mind and replace the world "left-winger" with "Jew", you would have a nazist.
Basically, if I am such an evil hippie insect, intent on destroying the growth and ambition of my superiors - why would you even bother to question me or demand answers to some of your concerns?
Why not act on the ramifications of your "philosophy", and slay me like the parasitic insect you are convinced I am?
Also, Albert J apparently thinks a cold winter is more than an anecdote in the proceedings. Lol. I guess that means he'll swing right back to my position the instant we get a hot summer.
Posted by Axel Edgren on Sat 9 Jan 2010 at 12:04 PM
How a tiny blog and a collective of climate enthusiasts broke the biggest story in the history of global warming science – but not without a gatekeeper of the climate establishment trying to halt its proliferation.
It was triggered at the most unlikely of places. Not in the pages of a prominent science publication, or by an experienced muckraker. It was triggered at a tiny blog – a bit down the list of popular skeptic sites. With a small group of followers, a blog of this size could only start a media firestorm if seeded with just the right morsel of information, and found by just the right people. Yet it was at this location that the most lethal weapon against the global warming establishment was unleashed.
The blog was the Air Vent. The information was a link to a Russian server that contained 61 MB of files now known as Climategate. Within two weeks of the file’s introduction, the story appeared on 28,400,000 web pages.
Not entirely the “death of global warming” as many have claimed – what happened with Climategate is much more nuanced and exponentially more interesting than the headlines convey. What was triggered at this blog was the death of unconditional trust in the scientific peer review process, and the maturing of a new movement – that of peer-to-peer review.
This development may horrify the old guard, but peer-to-peer review was just what forced the release of the Climategate files – and as a consequence revealed the uncertainty of the science and the co-opting of the process that legitimizes global warming research. It was a collective of climate blogs, centered on the work of Stephen McIntyre and Ross McKitrick, which applied the pressure. With moderators and blog commenters that include engineers, PhDs, statistics whizzes, mathematic experts, software developers, and weather specialists – the label flat-earthers, as many of their opponents have attempted to brand them, seems as fitting as tagging Lady Gaga with the label demure.
This peer-to-peer review network is the group that applied the pressure and then helped authenticate and proliferate the story.
Now, as expected, the virtual organism that is the global warming establishment resisted release of the weapon. At the first appearance of the Climategate files, which contained a plethora of emails and documents from the University of East Anglia’s Climate Research Unit, the virtual organism moved to halt their promulgation. Early on, a few of the emails were posted on Lucia Liljegren’s skeptic blog The Blackboard. Shortly after the post, Lucia, a PhD and specialist in fluid mechanics, received an email from prominent climatologist Gavin Schmidt from the NASA Goddard Institute for Space Studies (GISS). It said in part, “[A] word to the wise… I don’t think that bloggers are shielded under any press shield laws and so, if I were you, I would not post any content, nor allow anyone else to do so.”
Posted by Albert J on Sat 9 Jan 2010 at 12:08 PM
Axel
"CO2 causes temperature rise AND warming causes CO2 outgassing from oceans. This feedback system is confirmed by the CO2 record. In the past, the amplifying effect of CO2 feedback enabled warming to spread across the globe and take the planet out of the ice age."
Funny you should post that -- I read it earlier this morning. It is a statement of belief. It doesn't say how we know that CO2 is causing warming.
The Skeptical Science post also says:
To claim that the CO2 lag disproves the warming effect of CO2 displays a lack of understanding of the processes that drive Milankovitch cycles. A review of the peer reviewed research into past periods of deglaciation tells us several things:
*
Deglaciation is not initiated by CO2 but by orbital cycles
*
CO2 amplifies the warming which cannot be explained by orbital cycles alone
*
CO2 spreads warming throughout the planet
Disingenuous, because the burden of proof is not on me to "disprove'" the role of CO2 in warming. It is your burden to prove it.
The second bullet point is especially noteworthy: "CO2 amplifies the warming which cannot be explained by orbital cycles alone."
Where is the research showing that CO2 is amplifying the warming? Let's see something quantifiable.
Where is the research showing that all other explanations for warming, such as changes in ocean currents, or solar-mediated changes in cosmic rays, has been ruled out?
Show me the research, not just a collection of talking points.
Posted by Bradley J. Fikes on Sat 9 Jan 2010 at 12:10 PM
I wonder why it is I have never met a pleasant objectivist.
i think it must be very painful to be an objectivist - here you sit with all the answers, the perfect, ironclad route to a perfect world. But people persist in trying different things, paying their taxes and often voting for social spending, forsaking the true and narrow.
Anyway, as for your self-righteous screed about the 1970 ice age theory (like Rand, you are in desperate need of an editor): http://www.skepticalscience.com/ice-age-predictions-in-1970s.htm
"1970's ice age predictions were predominantly media based with the majority of scientific papers predicting warming. The notion that the 1970s scientific consensus was for impending global cooling is incorrect. In actuality, there were significantly more papers in the 1970s predicting warming than cooling."
Again, from my own personal experience: There are no objectivists capable of thinking "well" (it's funny, philosophy is the "love of thinking" - so why are the followers of the "ultimate philosophy" often so lapsing in judgment and skepticism). Also, there are no serious skeptics who operate out of a genuine desire to see society pick the best route. They want to win at the expense of anyone and everything else.
Not once have I seen a post written by a skeptic that had a proportional sense of humility or good faith to it. Most of you are, I suspect, simply anti-left bigots or incredibly boring men frightened by the changes in the world around you. So far, I have not seen one skeptic going beyond the grumpy, wounded, egocentric and intellectually sedate contrarianism of Jeremy Clarkson.
Posted by Axel Edgren on Sat 9 Jan 2010 at 12:14 PM
Axel,
"The "decline" refers to the "divergence problem". This is where tree ring proxies diverge from modern instrumental temperature records after 1960. The divergence problem is discussed as early as 1998, suggesting a change in the sensitivity of tree growth to temperature in recent decades (Briffa 1998). It is also examined more recently in Wilmking 2008 which explores techniques in eliminating the divergence problem. So when you look at Phil Jone's email in the context of the science discussed, it is not the schemings of a climate conspiracy but technical discussions of data handling techniques available in the peer reviewed literature."
That wasn't was I referred to. I am perfectly aware of the divergence issue. My point was quite different -- that Mann had knowledge his tree ring residual data was flawed. Mann wrote, and I am bolding the smoking gun:
Tim,
Attached are the calibration residual series for experiments based on available networks
back to:
AD 1000
AD 1400
AD 1600
I can't find the one for the network back to 1820! But basically, you'll see that the residuals are pretty red for the first 2 cases, and then not significantly red for the 3rd case--its even a bit better for the AD 1700 and 1820 cases, but I can't seem to dig them up. In any case, the incremental changes are modest after 1600--its pretty clear that key predictors drop out before AD 1600, hence the redness of the residuals, and the notably larger uncertainties farther back...
You only want to look at the first column (year) and second column (residual) of the files.
I can't even remember what the other columns are!
Let me know if that helps. Thanks,
mike
p.s. I know I probably don't need to mention this, but just to insure absolutely clarify on this, I'm providing these for your own personal use, since you're a trusted colleague. So please don't pass this along to others without checking w/ me first. This is the sort of "dirty laundry" one doesn't want to fall into the hands of those who might potentially try to distort things...
If you hand only followed my link, you'd have saved yourself from yet another inaccuracy.
Posted by Bradley J. Fikes on Sat 9 Jan 2010 at 12:25 PM
"Funny you should post that -- I read it earlier this morning. It is a statement of belief. It doesn't say how we know that CO2 is causing warming."
http://www.ucsusa.org/global_warming/science_and_impacts/science/global-warming-faq.html#How_do_we_know_that_humans_are_the_major
"Natural changes alone can’t explain the temperature changes we’ve seen. For a computer model to accurately project the future climate, scientists must first ensure that it accurately reproduces observed temperature changes. When the models include only recorded natural climate drivers—such as the sun’s intensity—the models cannot accurately reproduce the observed warming of the past half century. When human-induced climate drivers are also included in the models, then they accurately capture recent temperature increases in the atmosphere and in the oceans. [4][5][6] When all the natural and human-induced climate drivers are compared to one another, the dramatic accumulation of carbon from human sources is by far the largest climate change driver over the past half century."
"Disingenuous, because the burden of proof is not on me to "disprove'" the role of CO2 in warming. It is your burden to prove it."
It's like this, see. We have an energy imbalance across the globe. When trying to figure out why, the chemical and physical qualities of CO2 are what fits the bill. "Skeptics" blame other things ("hahahaha i just thought of the SUN I BET you scientists never thought of the SUN HAHAHAHAHA"... Wait, you have already? And put it in your models?") but so far CO2 is simply the only explanation. Seeing as warming can cause economic damage, curbing CO2 is a good idea.
We are warming. People like me have - according to scientific criteria - the best explanation as to why. People like you... Well, you are politically, economically or motivated motivated contrarians who generally hate people like me.
Posted by Axel Edgren on Sat 9 Jan 2010 at 12:31 PM
Axel,
It's like this, see. We have an energy imbalance across the globe. When trying to figure out why, the chemical and physical qualities of CO2 are what fits the bill.
Where is the peer-reviewed research proving that? All you're doing is linking to AGW-supporting sites, such as the Union of Concerned Scientists. FYI, that is not peer-reviewed research.
What I'm asking you is for the specific, peer-reviewed scientific papers that conclusively show that CO2 is mainly responsible for past warmings, and that all other causes have been ruled out.
Posted by Bradley J. Fikes on Sat 9 Jan 2010 at 12:40 PM
There you go Axel, use that circular logic of the Looters, Hitch hiking Moochers and Whiners. Avoid at all costs answering some simple logical questions by bringing up Bigotry, Nazis and Jews like your kind always does. You forgot homophobic, dude! All of which has so much to do with the freezing weather out side. I know, you don't have to provide any facts or science, all that has already been decided, and besides, it's your Religion now.
What do you mean no proof. I gave you the video of the EU president talking about using Copenhagen to to kick start global governance (with taxes and Gordon Brown's call for Global Environmental Police) and I gave you his direct quote. You can't read/listen now? What else do you want?
Science, Explain simply;
Where is the evidence of Plant food causing any more warming than is normal after a Glacial period?
Explain why there has been no warming the past decade in spite of increased CO2 in the Atmosphere (look out your window please).
Explain the Medieval Warming Period and how it blows away all your AGWing theories? No SUVs back then as I recall. Yet it was warmer than today.
Explain how a computer model that could not predict this winter weather 3 months ago, can predict what will happen 100 years from now.
Care to comment on what a "climate expert" is? How many disciplines does it take to be one, and how does one splice together all the interactions of the micro climates to come up with anything close to a "global" commuter model? And if the computer models are so great, how come none of them, like Zero, can backwards calibrate to pre-existing climate data? Hmmmm bright one? Enlighten us ooh hippie dippy Green Peace poster man! We are waiting (not).
See, I can recite science and facts all day. Just because you fit in to the typical category of Looters, Moochers and Whiners doesn't make you a bad person, just an ill informed person carried around by the rest of us. The majority of the world is made up of Looters, Moochers and Whiners. That is who they are, deal with it. Maybe some day you will see the light and grow up to become a Doer and provider of actual goods and services. Who knows?
No need to get snippy about who you are. You can always change if you apply yourself.
Look in the mirror and embrace your self, and go be the best Looter or Moocher you can be! Be Happy man! Life is too short.
PS, Not one AGWer has answered Bradley, why not? Not one of you can say why we shouldn't start with removing soot from the atmosphere when it's proven and cheap, why not?
And Axel, why do you think you have entered my mind? You could not even get in the door with your cowardice. I don't think you are an evil hippie dippy. I think you are a simple minded brainwashed Kool-aid drinker. You are not cleaver enough to be as Machiavellian as you make your self out to be. Stop kidding yourself and go backt to Mooching, you need to warm up. You must be shivering, standing on the corner begging all day. If you get hungry, Iguanas taste like Chicken, and they are falling out of the trees now like rain. From the cold weather. Here is your "proof" by way of a falling Iguana video;
http://www.thestarpress.com/article/20100108/NEWS06/100108037/1002/rss
But Hey, who is John Galt anyway?
Posted by Albert J on Sat 9 Jan 2010 at 12:46 PM
Albert J.
Not one of you can say why we shouldn't start with removing soot from the atmosphere when it's proven and cheap, why not?
A recent NASA study about glacier and snow melting in the Himalayas concluded that soot, not carbon dioxide, is the main culprit.
"Over areas of the Himalayas, the rate of warming is more than five times faster than warming globally," said William Lau, head of atmospheric sciences at NASA’s Goddard Space Flight Center in Greenbelt, Md. "Based on the differences it’s not difficult to conclude that greenhouse gases are not the sole agents of change in this region. There’s a localized phenomenon at play."
Posted by Bradley J. Fikes on Sat 9 Jan 2010 at 12:52 PM
"I know I probably don't need to mention this, but just to insure absolutely clarify on this, I'm providing these for your own personal use, since you're a trusted colleague. So please don't pass this along to others without checking w/ me first. This is the sort of "dirty laundry" one doesn't want to fall into the hands of those who might potentially try to distort things..."
"Smoking gun"? Goodness gracious, Bradley is narrating his own "discoveries" like one of those melodramatic, hard-boiled detectives.
"Steve McIntyre has published allegations - twice now - that an internal IPCC authors' debate about the inclusion of Briffa's tree-ring reconstruction in a key figure from the 2001 WG1 Third Assesement Report was driven by concern about the post-1960 "decline" in tree-ring widths, a decline that showed a marked divergence with the instrumental tempertaure record. McIntyre even claims that lead author Michael Mann worried that showing the series with this decline would give "fodder" to "skeptics".
"But even a cursory examination of the emails in question shows that the discussion was really about other aspects of the reconstruction, specifically obvious discrepancies between Briffa's reconstruction and the other two under consideration over the major part of the reconstruction's length. Thus, once again, McIntyre's speculations are shown to be utterly without foundation. Even worse, McIntyre left out intervening sentences within the actual proffered quotes in what appears to be an unsophisticated attempt to mislead."
In short, Mann was loathe to be transparent on the matter because he couldn't trust people like you to be honest and skeptical - in the same sense that a black man in the 1950's might be worried of wearing good, expensive clothes because he knows people will have it in for him and accuse him of buying the clothes with stolen money despite his innocence. Well, Mann was proven right - rather than investigate whether faulty data was entered into a report, you tried to pick up the conversation and wave it around angrily in an attempt to smear Mann (and, by your own mutilated logic, all climate scientists everywhere).
More here: http://scienceblogs.com/deltoid/2009/10/mcintyre_misunderstood_somehow.php
and here: http://deepclimate.org/2009/10/04/climate-auditor-steve-mcintyre-yamal/
How can you still be so bad at this? The answer is simple - I see this as sport, you see it as a game. I seek to allay my doubts and yours, you seek to ignore any doubts you have of your own position while throwing out the first thing that comes to your mind in order to try and break me. But I have so much info and data on my side, and so far there is not one solid indictment of any scientist, let alone the whole climate scientist community.
You know what the best part is? Even if I were to roll over and dismiss everything the CRU scientists whose emails were hacked had *ever* written, I would still have a towering corpus of information and solid work behind me. Not to mention all the examples of contrarian institutes being debunked or shown dishonest that I could throw at your camp.
With every passing interaction I have with you "skeptics", the less worried I have to be that I am wrong. I'm a 21-year old man with a broadband connection, and that's all I need to know more than most men I see in this comments section. Am I arrogant? Yes, but if the "skeptics" I see here only showed some humility, good faith and self-mastery, I would have responded in kind, and I might have removed the mocking quotation marks. But I really only see denialists and contrarians here. Like always.
Posted by Axel Edgren on Sat 9 Jan 2010 at 01:01 PM
There's also a peer-reviewed study by researchers at Scripps Institution of Oceanography -- no hotbed of AGW skepticism -- which says we can delay taking action on CO2 for 40 years, by other mitigation measures, such as reducing soot.
So even if one accepts AGW, the rush to immediately reduce CO2 is not necessary to forestall
global warmingclimate change.Posted by Bradley J. Fikes on Sat 9 Jan 2010 at 01:03 PM
Goodness gracious, Albert, you are in pain.
A deep breath, a glass of water, then do click on all the links I provided. You see, I understand some of your concerns are justified! The left has done much ill over the course of history and might be doing so now!
I have offered up sources of information that account for past warming periods, how "plant food" can still be harmful etc. Yet alas, you seem satisfied with looking down on me, assuming me a moocher who seeks to hamper and spite the entrepreneurs and corporations you care for so much.
Well, I'm not interested in proving myself incompatible with the prejudices you have of me. I am a grown man, and I know I would be forsaking my honor if I tried to prove I am not a moocher or looter to the random, right-wing screamers I regularly encounter. It's simple, you are bigoted against me. Should a woman devote any time to prove to an employer that she is not an emotional, irrational pile of hormones tending to hysterics, like he thinks? No. So why should an AGW proponent like me have to prove to an angry objectivist like you that I am neither a loocher or a mooter, the way your cult leader Rand would make me out to be? Simple, because objectivism is a cult of self-righteousness, megalomania and ideological hatred and bigotry.
Learn some good faith man. Oh, and maybe stop writing your posts like you are trying to beat out the word-count of Galt's thundering speech. Just a tip.
Posted by Axel edgren on Sat 9 Jan 2010 at 01:11 PM
Axel
"Smoking gun"? Goodness gracious, Bradley is narrating his own "discoveries" like one of those melodramatic, hard-boiled detectives.
So you don't think a scientist hiding "dirty laundry" -- his words, not mine -- is unethical? That says a lot about your attitude toward science.
"But even a cursory examination of the emails in question shows that the discussion was really about other aspects of the reconstruction, specifically obvious discrepancies between Briffa's reconstruction and the other two under consideration over the major part of the reconstruction's length. Thus, once again, McIntyre's speculations are shown to be utterly without foundation. Even worse, McIntyre left out intervening sentences within the actual proffered quotes in what appears to be an unsophisticated attempt to mislead."
That is assertion, not evidence. I've read the Climategate emails, and gave you a link to the one in question. And McIntyre is irrelevant -- Mann is deliberately hiding data from skeptical consideration.
In short, Mann was loathe to be transparent on the matter because he couldn't trust people like you to be honest and skeptical - in the same sense that a black man in the 1950's might be worried of wearing good, expensive clothes because he knows people will have it in for him and accuse him of buying the clothes with stolen money despite his innocence. Well, Mann was proven right - rather than investigate whether faulty data was entered into a report, you tried to pick up the conversation and wave it around angrily in an attempt to smear Mann (and, by your own mutilated logic, all climate scientists everywhere).
So in your book it's right for scientists to hide "dirty laundry" because it might be used against them? Skeptical consideration is essential to science. Slandering skeptics by comparing them to racists is pathological.
You know what the best part is? Even if I were to roll over and dismiss everything the CRU scientists whose emails were hacked had *ever* written, I would still have a towering corpus of information and solid work behind me.
I'll take you up on that.
Now let's see you, without reference to anyone whose emails appear in Climategate, cite peer-reviewed papers that conclusively answer my question:
"How do we know for sure that CO2 is driving warming now, since historically C02 increases have lagged warming by hundreds of years?"
Posted by Bradley J. Fikes on Sat 9 Jan 2010 at 01:17 PM
If we cannot predict weather features such as the Arctic oscillation or an El Niño under current climate, how can anyone credibly claim we have predictive skill decades into the future from both natural and human caused climate forcings? The short answer is that they cannot. Except silly people like Axel. Since the data used in the computer models you are citing is tainted from both CRU and GISS data bases, as Climategate and a teen aged girl from Canada proved. What now AXEL, my man?
But since you love computer models Axel, here you go," Proof"....as much as any computer model is proof. Live by computer models, die by them (you did ask me to slay you, yes?):
Perhaps most interesting is the application of this analysis to the prediction of future climate change, something GCM climate modelers have been attempting for the past 30 years with little success. Figure 3 from the paper illustrates the prediction for temperatures to 2100 following from our structural break model, the assumptions of continuous underlying warming, regime-shift from 1978 to 1997, and no additional major regime-shift. The projections formed by the presumed global warming trend to 1978 and the trend in the current regime predicts constant temperatures for fifty years to around 2050. This is similar to the period of flat temperatures from 1930-80.
What is even more encouraging is that, even though temperatures resume their upward climb after 2050, the predicted increase for the rest of the century is only about 0.2◦ C above present levels. That is around one tenth the increase generally bandied about by the IPCC and its minions, who sometimes predict as much as a 6°C rise by 2100.
http://www.prisonplanet.com/stat-model-predicts-flat-temperatures-through-2050.html
Think I''l get my swim trunks ready now, based on Axel's predictions.Shall I sell my snowboard now or later? Bet those Iguanas will be glad to thaw out if Axel is right! As my PHD statistician friend always says, "How do you want the graph and data to look?"
To Heck with Jim Taggert! Where is John Galt?
Posted by Albert J on Sat 9 Jan 2010 at 01:19 PM
Albert J.
Well, Axel just dug himself a real big hole by saying he could dismiss everything from the Climategate scientists and still have "a towering corpus of information and solid work behind me."
I actually feel sorry for Axel, because in his rampant insecurity, he felt compelled to state he's a "I'm a grown man", just after saying, "I'm a 21-year old man with a broadband connection."
But I don't feel sorry enough to release Axel from his boast. I'm still awaiting his "towering corpus," of peer-reviewed research, without reference to Climategate scientists.
Posted by Bradley J. Fikes on Sat 9 Jan 2010 at 01:32 PM
Axel, some more Plant Food science for you dude;
In a new technical paper to be published in the journal ‘Energy and Fuels’, Robert Essenhigh from Ohio State University, throws doubt on this consensus. Using the combustion/chemical-engineering Perfectly Stirred Reactor (PSR) mixing structure, or 0-D Box, as the basis of a model for residence time in the atmosphere, he explains that carbon dioxide emissions from fossil fuels are likely to have a residence time of between 5 and 15 years. He further concludes that the current trend of rising atmospheric carbon dioxide concentrations is not from anthropogenic sources, but due to natural factors.
Abstract here;
http://jennifermarohasy.com/blog/2009/04/carbon-dioxide-in-atmosphere-5-15-years-only/
But don't let facts destroy your dogma now! Chin up, ready, Smile, now Mooch!
Text just in from John Galt, "who is Axel Edgren?"
Posted by Albert J on Sat 9 Jan 2010 at 01:37 PM
Such unbelievable haughtiness and arrogance.
http://skepticalscience.com/co2-lags-temperature.htm
Now, that is just the article. It relies on studies by some scientists whose works are linked. So, they are the sources to my claim that CO2 lagging temperature doesn't shake my position.
What you have to do is this. Look for the scientists sourced in the article in the email cache. Them being *mentioned* by someone else is not incriminating. Them working at East Anglia is not incriminating. What you need to show is the people from that article *involved in correspondence* that actually shows they are involved in *avoidance of scientific scrutiny and process*.
You will not find anything, Fikes.
Posted by Axel Edgren on Sat 9 Jan 2010 at 01:43 PM
Bradley, he will have to humble off with his other green peacers and find another post now darn it!
What know one is admitting yet, as you are making the point, is that all the "facts" and "data" trend analysis and computer modeling the Axels of this debate use are done almost exclusively from the corrupted EAU CRU and the Corrupted NASA GISS data bases.
Whoops!
Here's a buck for latte, Axel. Smile and the whole world smiles with you!
I'm not sure Angelina is right to play Dagny.
Posted by Albert J on Sat 9 Jan 2010 at 01:45 PM
Albert J.
No fair citing peer-reviewed research!
In order to
descend tomeet Axel's standards of scientific accuracy, you must prove AGW is wrong, using only such totally unbiased sources as the Union of Concerned Scientists and Greenpeace.Posted by Bradley J. Fikes on Sat 9 Jan 2010 at 01:45 PM
Axel,
I'm asking for links to specific peer-reviewed papers. Don't make me guess by sending me to a link where you say the work is. Cite the papers themselves. Even if you can't link to the entire paper, you can at least link to the abstract. Even a press release on the paper will be enough.
What you have to do is this. Look for the scientists sourced in the article in the email cache. Them being *mentioned* by someone else is not incriminating. Them working at East Anglia is not incriminating. What you need to show is the people from that article *involved in correspondence* that actually shows they are involved in *avoidance of scientific scrutiny and process*.
Yes, only the actual scientists who have sent or received emails count. But you should first vet the scientific papers to make sure none are involved. I'll trust, but verify.
Now let's see those peer-reviewed papers that answer my question:
"How do we know for sure that CO2 is driving warming now, since historically C02 increases have lagged warming by hundreds of years?"
Posted by Bradley J. Fikes on Sat 9 Jan 2010 at 01:56 PM
Axel, we haven't even gotten to "Hide the Decline" yet. It is as significant to your claims as is the Medieval Warm Period is. because this is the period of declining temperatures after WW II (that evil period when Doers defeated Nazi Fascism and used Capitalism to raise the standard of living of the world and to defeat Communism by Industrialization) that shows a large increase in Carbon Dioxide emissions, while the temperatures significantly declined. The decline was simply deleted by the CRU bunch on purpose. As per their correspondence.
You can see graphs un-hiding the decline here;
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/11/26/mcintyre-data-from-the-hide-the-decline/
Notice on both Hide the decline graphs and the unhide the decline graph above, Michael Mann, et al., just ignore the Medieval Warm Period, for the same reason as the decline data was deleted. it's Inconvenient to the template of AGWing.
Need More Proof? Got Milk? For the Latte?
John G.
Posted by Albert J on Sat 9 Jan 2010 at 02:11 PM
I just noticed this walkback in Axel's latest:
What you need to show is the people from that article *involved in correspondence* that actually shows they are involved in *avoidance of scientific scrutiny and process*.
But Axel first said:
You know what the best part is? Even if I were to roll over and dismiss everything the CRU scientists whose emails were hacked had *ever* written, I would still have a towering corpus of information and solid work behind me.
So Axel has admitted that he can't produce his "towering corpus" if he dismisses "everything the CRU scientists whose emails were hacked had *ever* written". He wants me to prove they were involved in chicanery. And as Axel will be the judge of that, I predict he'll be very lenient on them.
Of course, some of the most damning Climategate emails, such as by Michael Mann, were not written by CRU scientists. Mann is at Penn State. So that leaves Axel another way out. If Axel excluded all the scientists who took part in the Climategate emails from his evidence, he would be utterly lost. But Axel made his boast in anger; he really didn't think he'd have to follow through. So there's no point holding him to the letter or spirit of his boast.
Anyway, I have yet to see Axel cite any peer-reviewed papers -- from Climategate scientists or not -- that conclusively answer my question:
"How do we know for sure that CO2 is driving warming now, since historically C02 increases have lagged warming by hundreds of years?"
Posted by Bradley J. Fikes on Sat 9 Jan 2010 at 02:25 PM
OK; I can no longer go on with this - I write comments, the moderator says "Waiting for approval and posting" but what I have written never shows up. I can't work under those circumstances.
Posted by Axel Edgren on Sat 9 Jan 2010 at 02:36 PM
Hey Axel, while you fix your latte, let's have some scientific fun, OK?
1) How big is the Atmosphere? What is it's mass and it's volume? Of what value is quoting % volumes of gases if the Atmosphere is Dynamic and changes sizes like a bubble? Do we know if it does? Or not?
2) Of course there is a slow warming trend over time, every inter glacial period warms up, and we are at the probable end of one now, and due for cooling, since the last glacial period was about 10,000 years ago. Archeological digs show evidence of not only Roman but prehistoric relics in passes in the Alps now melting, where our ancestors had free passages previously because there were no glaciers there back then. This must be the only generation that is afraid of warming. As this warming takes place, the temperatures of oceans gradually rise also. Since CO2 is mainly in the oceans, do not warming oceans release CO2 into the atmosphere? How can you accurately calibrate the difference in the two types of CO2? Natural and man made? Since we don't know what the mass and volume of the Atmosphere was 500 or 1 million years ago?
Your proofs sir, while I text John Galt back please.
Posted by Albert J on Sat 9 Jan 2010 at 02:38 PM
Axel,
OK; I can no longer go on with this - I write comments, the moderator says "Waiting for approval and posting" but what I have written never shows up. I can't work under those circumstances.
I'm sorry to hear this; the discussion was just getting interesting. Perhaps another time.
Posted by Bradley J. Fikes on Sat 9 Jan 2010 at 02:40 PM
Here is the primary point we bigoted skeptics are trying to make. You “man is killing the earth” warmers want to impose draconian taxes and demand a surrender of a significant portion of my civil liberties based on some flimsy logic and do not want to delve into the details of fact. When you are caught red handed cooking the books, you will not acquiesce to an open review. We want us all to just “Trust Me.” The onus is on the “Warmers to prove the CO2 is the enemy.
I can provide you more scientific evidence that there is a God than you can provide proving that CO2 is destroying the earth. If I applied your tactics, I would demand that you all immediately bend down and pray to God almighty and give 10% of your income to the world church. Secondly, I would demand that all countries submit to global enforcement of God worship at point of arms. I assure you, that the world would not give in to that demand. So don’t expect us to bend over and take it, because a bunch of proven liars say the sky is falling.
Posted by Gene Craig on Sat 9 Jan 2010 at 03:06 PM
Mr. Fikes asks: "How do we know for sure that CO2 is driving warming now, since historically C02 increases have lagged warming by hundreds of years?"
padikiller notes: Excellent question, but actually, we need to ask a more fundamental one, namely: "Is atmospheric man-made CO2 really rising at all"?
It would appear that we may have been given regular doses of a load of crap from the AGW "scientists" for a very long time.
"To assess whether the airborne fraction is indeed increasing, Wolfgang Knorr of the Department of Earth Sciences at the University of Bristol reanalyzed available atmospheric carbon dioxide and emissions data since 1850 and considers the uncertainties in the data.
In contradiction to some recent studies, he finds that the airborne fraction of carbon dioxide has not increased either during the past 150 years or during the most recent five decades.
The research is published in Geophysical Research Letters."
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/12/091230184221.htm
Posted by padikiller on Sat 9 Jan 2010 at 03:06 PM
Alex, here is Atlas Shrugged from 1957 and current events from today for your comparison, it will not be like the Hide and Unhide the Decline graphs, these two coincide exactly.
Today's current events;
Back in the 1980's, when Dr.James Hansen [NASA GISS, and the author of your energy imbalance] was predicting an ice age, Dr. Gray stated that there would be warming. Gray was right and Hansen was wrong, but for some reason, (perhaps due to Gore becoming VP,) Hansen was rewarded for his incorrectness as Dr. Gray was frustrated in his efforts to gain funding.
Hansen then switched over to predicting warming, but Dr. Gray stated the warming was only a cycle, and cooling would return. It now looks like once again Dr. Gray was right and Hansen was wrong.
It is my understanding that NASA turned down eight separate requests from Dr. Gray for the funding needed to research the AMO and other cycles. He wanted to better understand components such as Thermohaline Circulation, but instead we have spent millions, perhaps billions, on having Hansen fudge surface temperature data and build computer models which don't work.
Originally I felt that Dr. Gray was perhaps too bitter about how funding was allotted, but the revelations of Climategate now show he, if anything, likely understated how badly the rot of politics had infiltrated the science at NASA.
The most ironic thing of all is watching Hansen awake to the fact he has been a dupe, used by the likes of Gore. When Hansen was collecting $350,000 from the wife of Senator John Kerry, (D MA,) he may have actually thought they cared about his crusade, but they didn't and they don't. All the compromises Hansen made for money and power are coming back to haunt him, as he is reduced to selling his book on late night talk shows.
Dr. Gray didn't compromise, and he has paid the political price. Irascible, hot-tempered, out-spoken, and as honest as the day is long, he annoys the heck out of Alarmists. However Alarmists strain at a gnat while swallowing a camel, when they pick on old Dr. Gray. Soon they too will awake to the facts Hansen is awaking to.
Atlas Shrugged, 1957, Part II, Chapter 1;
Part II, Chapter 1, Atlas Shrugged, Circa 1957
The Title of the Book’s jacket was “Why Do You Think You Think?”.[ The book was written by Dr. Floyd Ferris and published by the State Science Institute.]
from the book....
“Thought is a primitive superstition. Reason is an irrational idea. The childish notion that we are able to think has been mankind’s costliest error.”
“The more we know, the more we learn we know nothing.”
“Only the crassest ignoramus can still hold to the old fashioned notion that seeing is believing. That which you see is the first thing to disbelieve.”
“The latest scientific discoveries-such as the tremendous achievements of Dr. Robert Stadler-have demonstrated conclusively that our reason is incapable of dealing with the nature of the universe. These discoveries have led scientists to discoveries which are impossible., according to the human mind, but which exist in reality nonetheless. If you have not yet heard it, my dear old fashioned friends, it has now been proved that rational is insane.”
“Do not look for common sense.’ To demand ‘sense’ is the hallmark of nonsense. Let us break the chains of the prejudice called Logic. Are we going to be stopped by a syllogism?”
“So you think you are sure of your opinions? You cannot be sure of anything. Are you going to endanger the harmony of your community, your fellowship with your neighbors, your standing, reputation, good name and financial security for the sake of an illusion? For the sake of the mirage of thinking you think? Are you going to run the risks of court disasters-at a precarious time like ours-by opposing the existing social order in the name of those imaginary notions of yours which you call convictions? You say that you’re sure you’re right? Nobody is right, or ever can be. You feel the world around you is wrong? You have no means to know it! Everything is wrong in human eyes-so why fight it? Don’t argue. Accept. Adjust your self. Obey.”
Drink the Kool-aid of the State Science Institute Axel, Obey! Or is it.....really Dr. Floyd Ferris blogging under a pseudonym as Alex? Dum dah Dum dum....
Posted by Albert J on Sat 9 Jan 2010 at 03:18 PM
Axel -
*http://skepticalscience.com/1998-DIY-Statistics.html*
I see, you are just from another astroturf organization - financed by Soro or some other billionaire no doubt - who are trying to appropriate the term `sceptic' from the actual sceptics who have questioned global warming all along (which didn't include myself)
*To prove you clicked the link, you will have to tell me who wrote it and how many images of graphs he posted.*
which is funny Axel, bec. I actually can't find anyone who authored this piece; I see a refernce to `Tamino' but no first name, credential (as tho. these mean anything now). That's great work!
As for the `evidence' you presented, no evidence of global warming can be taken at face value any more until independent scientific auditors review ALL such research.
*Did you or did you not click the link? Factcheck are independent investigators. I have to ask because I think you are a troll at this stage. Their workings are there - but all you do is bandy about your convictions. Weak.*
"Garbage is foreover" indeed. The author of this piece doesn't know what he or she is talking about clearly; as I said, s/he made the statement that only a minority now are falling for g-w hysteria, saying it was bec. of the sceptics `confusing' the public; how is this statement even warranted?
*Yeah, factcheck went through the emails. You aren't showing your work, so all your claims are defunct.*
I'm sorry, where you there when `fact check went through the emails'? Clearly they didnt
*Even if we removed the work of the scientists you accuse and removed all the work that featured the data you claim is useless, I would still have a foundation to stand on. Also, you have yet to show how the illegal CRU hack actually shows any skirting or avoidance of scientific winnowing, so your claims are in bad faith.*
The emails are replete with the `skirting or avoidance of scientific winnowing.'
*You've yet to explain what the e-mails showed. Factcheck has looked through them and can't implicate any scientists, not even the ones conversating. You are still not talking in good faith and are also being arrogant and slanderous.*
You are acting in bad faith. the emails clearly show a pattern of deceipt, fraudulence, arrogance and libel. NO more `global warming' research can be trusted until ALL of it is reviewd by ind. scientific auditors.
*http://skepticalscience.com/global-warming-stopped-in-1998.htm*
thanks, you've put the same link as you had before, but as I said, no such `evidence' can be trusted before a review. Are you afraid of such a reveiw and what it will find?
*It will never be a hot year everywhere for a good while, and there will be no comparatively cooler years over the whole planet. You are not thinking well or thoroughly - I'm still your superior.*
Yes, indeed, `arrogance' personified. The attitude which
*Me, the author of the piece and CWP are the most skeptical people here.*
again, a transparent attempt to appropriate the word `sceptic' when you are clearly nothing of the sort - you and you're astroturf `sceptical science' buddies who can't even manage to put their name on a blog post purported to be `research'.
Posted by R.B. Glennie on Sat 9 Jan 2010 at 05:03 PM
CO2 is a trace gas in the atmosphere and is insignificant by definition. It has nothing to do with anything. Zero, zip, nada!
Water vapor is the principal greenhouse gas. It has 200 times as many molecules as CO2 and each absorbs IR energy from sunlight six times better than CO2 for a net effect that is 1200 times greater than CO2. Or we can say, water vapor is responsible for 99.9% of all atmospheric heating.
Carbon is 84% of all petroleum fuels. Controlling and taxing carbon will transfer more political and economic power than anything since the Magna Carta, 800 years ago. It is just that simple: Follow the money and power.
Albert Gore, Jr. took one science survey course at Harvard the year he flunked out. He got a "D" in it and was so turned off by it he registered in the school of Divinity at Vanderbilt, flunked out of that the went into journalism. We think that explains a lot.
Posted by Adrian Vance on Sat 9 Jan 2010 at 05:09 PM
Hatten av, Alex Edgren! I am sorry to butt in... People seem to understand your decleration of willingnesss to be disproved of your opinion and your devulgeriance of personal informaion as a sign of weakness - and not a strength.
Albert J,
You are crazy. How can you cite a text that clearly show that you have no sense of taste, no independent thinking and the most obvious evidence: can't fit a story with its message? For me who have no pride or emotions invested on either side can only see your citation as suicide for your only line of agrumentation. Of all the texts and all the part of text - you could not have choosen worse...
Posted by BlackElvis on Sat 9 Jan 2010 at 07:07 PM
The problem with tv "meteorologists" who think that they know more about climate science than climatologists do boils down to two words: Dunning Kruger
And just for grins, here's some video footage of one of those skeptical tv meteorologists (the weatherperson footage starts about 1:35 into the video): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32YKaPxAxwA
Posted by caerbannog on Sun 10 Jan 2010 at 01:23 AM
Adrian Vance is another Dunning Kruger case.
Apparently, he does not know that the amount of water vapor in the atmosphere is highly temperature dependent, while the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere is (to a first order) temperature *independent*. That's a critical distinction that causes the two gases to play very different roles with respect to greenhouse warming.
As one travels up in the atmospheric column, the water vapor concentration drops rapidly, while the CO2 concentration remains nearly constant. So at high altitudes, CO2 absorbs much more IR than water vapor does. Ditto for high latitudes -- the atmosphere is so cold over the poles that there's much less water vapor there. That magnifies the importance of CO2 in polar regions.
Take these factors into account, and it's easy to see that CO2 is a much more important greenhouse gas than Adrian's completely incorrect claims would suggest.
Posted by caerbannog on Sun 10 Jan 2010 at 02:01 AM
This is how the Human Cascade Phenomena works now through the global 24/7 media to distort and bend information to fit agendas, which ends up as crusades based on emotions and templates of agendas, not based on science. After Eugenics, one of the first to employ techniques was Rachael Carson fanatics banning DDT for no sound reason, and condemning millions of poor to death by malaria every year. For which the fix is nets. The net result of nets is, most of them end up as wedding veils and fish nets. And based on these "Cascade Events", we make Trillion dollar bets?
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn18363-debate-heats-up-over-ipcc-melting-glaciers-claim.html
Posted by Albert J on Sun 10 Jan 2010 at 07:36 AM
Yo Black Elvis, Typical, this is why the new Left is in love with Atlas Shrugged, you all just don't get it. What you pass off as science and logic is emotions, laced with some science bits here and there to make it seem scientific. Like deleting inconvenient data to "Hide the Decline". Why else is there such a hard core press to suppress real debate and true scientific skepticism by people like you? What is it you all are afraid of, the Truth as scientifically delineated?
You fool yourselves with mantras like, "We don't need science, we have consensus", or," We have all the science, you guys just listen to right wing talk radio, so we don't need to prove anything". Or, it's for the greater good, so what if it's really a hoax?
You make my point absolutely clear, thank you very much for showing up, as predictable as it is.
Go look for John Galt, he will explain it all to you. Or, try saving the Iguanas for a switch from Polar Bears, now that the globe is cooling off for awhile.
Posted by Albert J on Sun 10 Jan 2010 at 07:53 AM
PS, Axel and Black Elvis, if you all can prove with in an acceptable error band of say less than 8% (most science is not absolute, to allow for infinity) that HUMANS are the cause of" accelerating" warming (every one knows the climate is changes and that there is currently a gradual normal warming trend over all happening, in spite of the current cooling reversal), then I'm on board with you AWGers. What sane rational person would not be?
So just prove it. Show us that there is a 92% chance if we don't take drastic action today, that 90 years from now will be too late to undo what humans are doing and have done, AND that it is due to HUMAN emitted CO2 to validate Carbon taxes is a valid route to take.
Then, remove all the Billions to be made on Cap and Trade of carbon, and put 100% of the profits from all Carbon Taxes and Carbon Trades into a Global fund for the poor people of the world to provide clean water, shelter, clothing, food, jobs and educations for the poor. Put your AGWing money where your AGWing emotions are leading you. I expect you both to show up at Mexico City with the plan all worked out, AFTER you prove there is even a problem caused by humans and that problem is specifically human caused CO2 emissions.
All you have so far is speculations and assumptions. Here is Crazy for you Black Elvis, "Logic and Philosophy is empty with out scientific concrete evidence." Who said that one?
Albert Einstein said it when he was describing Galileo as the father of modern science, for going against the consensus of the time, against the Aristolean Philosophers who claimed, quite logically, that velocity is directly proportional to weight. When he dropped a 10 Lb weight and a 1 Lb weight from the leaning tower of Pisa of course he proved them wrong. But the Aristoleans claimed victory anyway. You know why? Because the 10 Lb weight hit inches before the 1 Lb weight (but if they were correct in theory the 1 Lb weight should be 10 times behind the 10 Lb weight). They never forgave Galileo for showing up their ignorance and inability to validate theory with scientifically measurable quantifiable proof. Does that maybe look like what's happening with this Cascade manufactured AGWing event so far? If you could prove it concretely, there would be no debate, we would move into solving the problem mode.
Galileo's experience s a lot like the Inquisition you AGWers are putting AWGing skeptics through. How's it feel now the shoe is over on your foot, over on "consensus" side? AGWers don't need real science, the logic of humans being guilty of pillaging and plundering planet earth makes sense. Like velocity being directly proportional to weight made sense at the time of Galileo.
So prove it. Man up and show the world the facts, Jack. Not the What ifs, the well we think this might happen if, The trend seems to be this or that, The possibilities are like this, Well, it's for the greater good any how so science doesn't matter anyway.....
This is Trillions of dollars in taxes you and the poor have to pay. Doesn't bother me, I've got my finances set already. You can pay taxes through the nose if you want to. But don't you think you owe it to your neighbors to think this through a bit more scientifically? It is several Trillion dollars you and the poor of the world can't afford to pay right now.
Go BBQ an Iguana and chew on it a bit, and when you have the concrete proof of AGWing, and the plan to save the world, get back to me. In the mean time, call me crazy (oh right, you already did), but I'll stick with Albert Einstein; the world is in great hands already. "God does not play dice with the Universe!" Remember that one Black Elvis?
Posted by Albert J on Sun 10 Jan 2010 at 08:41 AM
Post PS to Axel and Black Elvis,
If you want to use real science lads, don't forget to redo the corrupt CRU and GISS data bases, which are so far gone as to throw doubt on anything that utilized them before, now or in the future.
Then don't forget to constrain all the unknowable's, like the previous masses and volumes of the earth's atmosphere in years backwards, the exact amounts of Human versus Natural CO2 emissions and how you separate the two, and so on. And be transparent with your "assumptions" and inferences about temperatures in past history since we have no records before the thermometer was invented. Don't forget to have your work reviewed and accepted now, since we can no longer trust the old peer review system due to corrupt scientists like Hansen selling out their integrity for fame and fortune. Please now utilize an approved transparent Peer-to-Peer review system.
How is that plan to save the world accounting for all the different aspects of Human nature coming along guys? I wish you all the best in your future endeavors. If you can pull this off you will indeed be some great world leaders, so we are all counting on you both!
No pressure by the way, it's only the entire future of humanity and the world resting on your 2 shoulders now. I'm sure it's nothing for a couple of bright young lads like you guys.
Posted by Albert J on Sun 10 Jan 2010 at 12:13 PM
Albert J,
You just too funny. You argue that I cant have an opinion on your snip of itterature sice science are opinions and opinions are science... That IS crazy and on so many levels. Though all I did was pointing out that you did a horrable job advancing your arguments with the selcted qoute. Instead of adressing it you instead demonstrate this flaw in your style of argumentation by making a series of horrific quotes that somehow should support claims that are so poorly linked to the discussion at hand that I am a shamed for you. Anyway, you don't need my approval for your wacky ideas as they are clearly the brainchild of fiction and the result of artistic ambitions.
This is what science look like:
http://www.agu.org/meetings/fm09/lectures/lecture_videos/A23A.swf
Posted by BlackElvis on Sun 10 Jan 2010 at 12:25 PM
I think any "local weatherman" is more scientist, than any of the "highly educated" criminals at CRU or similar establishments in US.
Posted by crusader on Sun 10 Jan 2010 at 04:17 PM
In case anyone is interested, here is the UN's web site and their agenda for global environmental governance for your handy reference;
http://www.unep.org/environmentalgovernance/
http://www.unep.org/environmentalgovernance/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=7RzudGTFKRI%3D&tabid=341&language=en-US
Posted by Albert J on Sun 10 Jan 2010 at 04:26 PM
Elvis,
Thanks for the great "science" lesson, only it is very slow uploading. I fell asleep during the introduction. What does it say and where is all the peer to peer review back ups and annotations please?
Where are the concrete actual scientific proofs that humans are causing the earth to warm at a rate faster than normal that will harm the planet because of human carbon dioxide emissions, and what do you propose to do about it when you finally do get the proof (if ever?)
Posted by Albert J on Sun 10 Jan 2010 at 04:43 PM
Elvis,
I'll draw you a picture.
Current events = James Hansen, NASA, GISS data base. Since the 1980's he has been 1800 degrees out of phase with reality and facts, claiming an ice age was coming in the 1980s, and then to curry favor with Al Gore and Liberals in Congress to get budget money for NASA, he started claiming not just a warming trend while the earth has taken a pause and has been slightly cooling for the past decade, but he claimed a "dangerous" warming trend. He manipulated the GISS data to make it fit his agenda, and was first exposed for doing it by a teen aged Canadian girl. He has done it several times since then embarrassing NASA but still bringing in the budget money. He is now relegated to trying to sell his book on late night TV circuits, because Gore, Kerry and the rest of the Looters are through with their useful idiot, James.
That relates to the excerpt from 1957 fiction how you say? The excerpt is from a fictional "scientist's " book. He, like James Hansen in real life, also sold out his integrity and tried to convince the masses through the State Science Agency, which is funded with Mooch money from the Looters, that you don't need logic or concrete proof because it's all for the greater good of the masses. Like James Hansen did in real life.
The AGWing Cascade event started on the pretext to save the planet with the real agenda to get tax mooch money which comes from taxes which comes from looters in Congress and international looters. Looters by definition don't produce anything of value, they just take money away from those who do produce things and services. Moochers hitch hick off the Looters and provide pseudo science cover for the Looters to implement legal pick pocketing legislation. Just like the current AGWing scam.
PS, You still have not provided any proof of AGWing due specifically to human CO2 emissions, nor have you come up with a plan to erase it yet, if in fact it does exist. Therefore, like the rest of the AGWing skeptics, I assume you have bought into the State Science Agency Kool-aid, set up by the moochers and the looters.
Prove me wrong, let's see the hard proofs.
If you still can't figure it out, try buying the cliff notes. Hope the Iguana was done. They aren't good rare.
Posted by Albert J on Sun 10 Jan 2010 at 05:19 PM
Here is some hard science for you. CO2 has a specific gravity of 1.52 which means that it is 152% heavier than air. It sinks to the ground when it is released. It is absorbed by plants and trees. This is why it is used in fire extinguishers and spooky ground fog. We have had an increase of 80 ppm (parts per million) of CO2 in the atmosphere in the last 100 years. The fractional equivalent of that is 8/100.000ths of 1%. Now do you really think that this trace amount can cause global warming? This is a trace amount by any reasonable judgement. The government even has levels of trace amounts rat droppings that can be in our food.This is just part of a whole refutation article that I have written. If you would like ot read it, just email me and I will send it to you.
Posted by John Wilder on Sun 10 Jan 2010 at 06:36 PM
Good article, mostly lousy comments (Axel, you're a secular saint).
Funny how the more they shout, the more unhinged the denialist crowd sound.
The world is bigger than the USA. The science is not dependent on Al Gore. Your obsessive shouting is giving me a headache and wasting everybody's time.
You credulous, anti-science, self-proclaimed "skeptics" were wrong about tobacco, wrong about asbestos and you're wrong about this. My heart bleeds for your privilege and your wallets.
Posted by milgram on Sun 10 Jan 2010 at 08:44 PM
It's not the meteorologists who need to be informed/indoctrinated, but those climate scientists who do not have a degree in meteorology or physics. Without these, the "climate scientist" is poorly informed.
The climate models, all 16 of them, are fatally flawed and have not even been able to predict the cooling trend of the past 8 years, and no warming since 1998. They all use a climate sensitivity of between 2.5 and 4, while Professor Richard Lindzen, MIT and Dr. Roy Spencer, U. of Alabama have shown that it should be less than 1 . They also show that more radiation escapes to space than the models predict. The models also use (misuse) water vapor, using it to amplify the meager warming by CO2. Clouds and precipitation actually offset this assumed warming.The modelers call it a positive feedback when it is actually neautal or negative. (The warming does not go out of control). The models also do not include any solar effects, ocean oscillations or volcanic activity. It has recently been shown that the sun has more effect on temperatures than previously thought. Especially geomagnetic effects. The geomagnetic index is now at a historic low. Could that be the reason for the worldwide cold weather?
CO2 also has its limitations. Papers recently by several Physicists show that since CO2 only captures infrared radiation in a very narrow band, it absorbs all the radiation it can at about 250-300 parts per million (ppm). Higher concentrations of CO2 have little effect.
I happento be a 79 year old scientist with a degree in Physics and a masters degree in Meteorology, MIT, and retired chief meteorologist for a private weather service and WFSB-TV. in Connecticut.
Early on, James Hansen and others jumped the gun in making wild predictions of ocean rise and temperature rise caused by rising CO2, then saying the science was settled before doing any basic research on why cycles of warming and cooling have happened for thousands of years. The medieval warming from 950-2050 when the Vikings inhabited and did farming in Greenland followed by the little ice age in the 17th and 18th centuries. That research is now being done by the non-government independent scientists (skeptics). and re-writing the science books. The entrenched global warming scientists are loathe to admit that they are wrong. It has become more political than science. Better get used to the words clobal cooling. The oceans have just about stopped rising and the Antarctic ice cap is growing thicker.
Posted by James Macdonald on Sun 10 Jan 2010 at 08:55 PM
So Elvis, are these scientists wrong?
‘I do not believe in catastrophe theories. Man-made warming is balanced by the natural cycles, and I do not trust the computer models which state that if CO2 reaches a particular level then temperatures and sea levels will rise by a given amount.
'These models cannot be trusted to predict the weather for a week, yet they are running them to give readings for 100 years.’
Prof Tsonis said that when he published his work in the highly respected journal Geophysical Research Letters, he was deluged with ‘hate emails’.
He added: ‘People were accusing me of wanting to destroy the climate, yet all I’m interested in is the truth.’
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1242011/DAVID-ROSE-The-mini-ice-age-starts-here.html
Among the most prominent of the scientists is Professor Mojib Latif, a leading member of the UN’s Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC), which has been pushing the issue of man-made global warming on to the international political agenda since it was formed 22 years ago.
Prof Latif, who leads a research team at the renowned Leibniz Institute at Germany’s Kiel University, has developed new methods for measuring ocean temperatures 3,000ft beneath the surface, where the cooling and warming cycles start.
He and his colleagues predicted the new cooling trend in a paper published in 2008 and warned of it again at an IPCC conference in Geneva last September.
Last night he told The Mail on Sunday: ‘A significant share of the warming we saw from 1980 to 2000 and at earlier periods in the 20th Century was due to these cycles – perhaps as much as 50 per cent.
'They have now gone into reverse, so winters like this one will become much more likely. Summers will also probably be cooler, and all this may well last two decades or longer.
‘The extreme retreats that we have seen in glaciers and sea ice will come to a halt. For the time being, global warming has paused, and there may well be some cooling.’
As Europe, Asia and North America froze last week, conventional wisdom insisted that this was merely a ‘blip’ of no long-term significance.
Though record lows were experienced as far south as Cuba, where the daily maximum on beaches normally used for winter bathing was just 4.5C, the BBC assured viewers that the big chill was merely short-term ‘weather’ that had nothing to do with ‘climate’, which was still warming.
The work of Prof Latif and the other scientists refutes that view.
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1242011/DAVID-ROSE-The-mini-ice-age-starts-here.html#ixzz0cGWMNvZK
Inquiring minds would like to know, if the science is settled and there is no room for discussion and debate, why all these scientists are skeptical? More than 31,000 of them signed a petition as skeptics of your AGWing "thoery".
Where's the proff to take it from theory to fact?
Posted by Albert J on Sun 10 Jan 2010 at 09:15 PM
Milli-gram, got any science? Or is it all settled already, so we should just trust you?
Thanks James Mac, a very concise piece. Finally some actual science we can evaluate.
Posted by Albert J on Sun 10 Jan 2010 at 09:28 PM
Love the looooong diatribes above, by both sides!!! One simple question: If CAGW is real, why have the other planets been warming in unison with the Earth? Huh? Huh? Huh? Huh?
Yes, Axel, et al, I am gloriously a skeptic! Axel, I want YOUR answer to this simple question...
Posted by DDodd on Sun 10 Jan 2010 at 10:29 PM
This somewhat condescending piece is nevertheless worth scanning because of its focus on Joe Coleman and meteorologists in general. Homans points out (rightly) that meteorologists such as Joe Coleman have great credibility with the public but are really not research scientists. He points out (rightly) that meteorologists are awed by the difficulty of predicting weather even a week in advance and so are skeptical about climate predictions over much longer time frames, while climate scientists in general are not so awed. But he comes careening off the rails when he says, “But in fact, the basic question of whether rising greenhouse gas emissions will lead to climate change hinges on mostly simple, and predictable, matters of physics.” This is pure nonsense and betrays his ignorance of the science.
Roger W. Cohen
Fellow American Physical Society
Posted by Roger Cohen on Mon 11 Jan 2010 at 12:29 AM
1) Climate is usually defined as "average weather over 30 [or 50] years." Climate IS weather; how could it possibly be anything else.
2) The idea that climatology is completely independent of processes known and analyzed by meteorology is simply absurd.
3) One keeps reading that "the evidence for human-caused [CO2-driven] warming is overwhelming." But if one ACTUALLY READS the IPCC's 4AR, WG 1, Ch 9 -- "Attribution", the only relevant chapter -- there is no evidence there, and no citation of any articles presenting actual evidence. Twenty years ago, we heard "our computer models can't match the warming without including anthropogenic CO2." Two decades and a hundred billion dollars later, we read in 4AR, "our computer models can't match the warming without including anthropogenic CO2." Meanwhile, ALL the measurements of actual predictions by these silly models have proven false, while scientifically illiterate journalists like the author of this piece simply accept the tendentious armwaving of such as the CRU clique as gospel.
If you want to know why journalism has such a bad reputation with the public at large, you need look no further.
Posted by Craig Goodrich on Mon 11 Jan 2010 at 08:54 AM
On the Cloud Ship, Lollypop...Was this your idea Elvis?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/environment/globalwarming/5987229/Cloud-ship-scheme-to-deflect-the-suns-rays-is-favourite-to-cut-global-warming.html
Posted by Albert J on Mon 11 Jan 2010 at 10:02 AM
Axel, here's an AWG popsicle for you;
http://www.compeaus.com/_frozen/frozen_videos.html
Posted by Albert J on Mon 11 Jan 2010 at 11:43 AM
Simpler answer: TV meteorologists are hired and paid to forecast the weather and the accuracy of their assessments are known within days. The job requirements do not entail any obvious ideological bias. Climate scientists are drawn from the ranks of the academy and are hired and paid to prove that global warming (aka climate change) is a problem. Their assessments will not be known for decades and the job requirements necessarily involve an ideological bias. It doesn't take a four thousand word article to state the obvious.
Posted by AvisaMe on Mon 11 Jan 2010 at 01:06 PM
On reflection perhaps this is a more constructive contribution -
There's an interesting contrast with the UK. We don't have the same problem of weathermen talking nonsense about climate change. I think that's probably because most of them work for the Met Office and that (I believe) works on climate as well as weather.
But there are 2 retired TV science popularisers (Johnny Ball & David Bellamy) who are climate change conspiracists. That seems to fit with the article's suggestion of the over-extended sense of their own expertise.
(Sometimes I wonder if this relatively recent phenomenon (popping up after the oil companies could no longer be seen to publicly back the anti-science pressure groups) was the result of a deliberate shift in strategy by the anti-science PR effort. Persuade influential, science-associated people to front their nonsense for them. Looks so much more convincing than the American Petroleum Institute doing it....)
Posted by milgram on Mon 11 Jan 2010 at 01:20 PM
Is anyone else sick to death of Axel?
Posted by bigcasino on Mon 11 Jan 2010 at 04:14 PM
I live in New England - the weather pattern here has certainly changed over the past 40 years or so. I remember winters with 5 foot snow banks - building huge snow forts with tunnels - skiing on local 'hills' (which have now closed down due to lack of snow). If there isn't global warming going on - something certainly is..
Formax FD 6100
Posted by Kathy on Mon 11 Jan 2010 at 09:10 PM
@Kathy: A lot of things have changed in 40 years, but reduced snowfall is not one of them. 2008 broke all standing snow records in New England (I know, I had to shovel; the stuff). I'm tempted to suggest you might want to watch meteorologists more often, but that would be snarky.
Personally I bemoan the loss of wildlife; geese and ducks used to cover the sky. More than anything, the focus on AGW is a dangerous distraction from the very real effects of pollution on local environments.
Posted by JLD on Tue 12 Jan 2010 at 03:52 PM
This analysis is incredibly on-point to our situation in Wisconsin.
The most popular "weatherman" in Milwaukee was elected to the state Assembly a few years ago and since then has focused on almost nothing else but uncovering the "climate change hoax." He also publishes monthly attacks on climate change advocates and policies to reduce CO2. Here is an example of this month's missive.
http://www.thewheelerreport.com/releases/jan10/jan12/0112jotthotair.pdf
Posted by dma on Tue 12 Jan 2010 at 04:58 PM
As a weatherman ( actually AMS sealed with a BS in meteorology) I find it frightening that so many of my colleagues can dismiss global warming so out-of-hand. Every bit of evidence points to humans increasing greenhouse gases and hence temperatures. What's more debatable is what the actual effects will be and I imagine this is what creates much of the skeptisism from weathermen. When a study comes out and says the Earth will warm 3.8 degrees or sea level will rise 4.5 ft I know many of us roll our eyes. We know short-range models have a high degree of inaccuaracy, how are such long-range models going to make such precise measurements?
We have about 100 years of good data. That's not nearly enough for an actual picture of our climate. Ice cores and tree rings can give an outline on ancient climatology, but they don't paint in the details.
When people point to a heat wave for, or a cold blast against, I point out that's weather. That's like looking at one game the Yankees played badly in July and extrapolating they must have stunk last year (when they went on to win the world series).
Right now we have 100 years of data. That's just one game in the season.
All that said, what's the real argument here? Whether you BELIEVE in global warming or not you should be on board with limiting pollution. Less human CO2 is a good thing no matter you believe.
Posted by DMB on Tue 12 Jan 2010 at 05:49 PM
http://notyourstogive.com/
and for Milli-gram and the UK media;
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1242599/Families-forced-pile-rubbish-outside-homes-FIVE-WEEKS-snow-suspends-services.html
Posted by Albert J on Tue 12 Jan 2010 at 05:50 PM
Charles Homan's Article HOT AIR has several perspectives. If you are an AGWer, It is about how weathermen are not competent enough to know about Climate, but think they are. So to save the world we need to educate weathermen so they can get the word out. If you are a layman Skeptic, Homan's piece is about HOT AIR, and the fact that weathermen don't want to become "Useful Idiot" spokesmen for the Propaganda arm of the State Biased Media. If you are a real scientist, and haven't sold your soul at the Crossroads, like James Hansen of NASA did, then you see it as a debate of the informed with facts versus the manipulators with biased and twisted facts. The Climate is a hugely complex system involving every discipline of science, which makes it very interesting to study.
But, all that aside, if you AGWers really care about saving the world, how about putting the HOT AIR issue aside until Mexico City when it's warmer outside and put your efforts towards helping solve a real "man made" catastrophe? Which nature in the form of an earthquake just made extremely worse last night. 80% of people in Haiti live below the poverty level. 4.5 million in Haiti live on less than $1 per day. So even if you only give up one Latte per day and send that money monthly to a charity of your choice helping in the relief efforts (maybe start by investigating the International Red Cross for starters), it will make a big impact today in people's lives.
Posted by Albert J on Wed 13 Jan 2010 at 03:37 AM
"There is one thing which I will call your attention to, "you remember that I proposed to give a week's pay. There are in that House many very wealthy men - men who think nothing of spending a week's pay, or a dozen of them, for a dinner or a wine party when they have something to accomplish by it. Some of those same men made beautiful speeches upon the great debt of gratitude which the country owed the deceased--a debt which could not be paid by money--and the insignificance and worthlessness of money, particularly so insignificant a sum as $20,000 when weighed against the honor of the nation. Yet not one of them responded to my proposition. Money with them is nothing but trash when it is to come out of the people. But it is the one great thing for which most of them are striving, and many of them sacrifice honor, integrity, and justice to obtain it."
Davy Crockett, 1832
Posted by Albert J on Wed 13 Jan 2010 at 03:50 AM
Jessica Biel's trek up Mt. Kilimanjaro took a turn for the worse as a blizzard hit the hikers.
Biel, 27, is on the hike along with actors Emile Hirsch and Isabel Lucas, and a blizzard hit them on the fifth day of their journey.
An executive with the UN Foundation, Elizabeth Gore, said: 'It's pretty gnarly. The visibility is only 10 feet in front of you.
'And it's cold. I've got six layers on.'
Posted by Albert J on Wed 13 Jan 2010 at 09:58 AM
Real data is missing from these discussions, but that's OK as most of us are not scientists, particularly climate scientists. But if you study the stock market you can understand the difference between WEATHER and CLIMATE. The math is similar for many physical processes, and some models of pricing over time. Is the the POWER LAW or statistics of extreme values, not the NORMAL distribution where all data is independent of the other data. As we all saw, economic models and risk models which used the normal (bell curve) assumptions to make predictions UNDERESTIMATED the RISK to our money! That is because the guys with the fast computers (humans) were trying to predict risk based on assumptions like "the best hint of what is coming is where you are today...plus or minus a few standard deviations." Nobody can predict weather precisely. But they can predict CHANGES in the weather for SHORT PERIODS OF TIME based on sensor data. Climate is all about the real long term impact of those CHANGES which tend to CLUSTER (are not random or just seasonal), so while someone may say that the model shows a 3.2degree increase in the AVERAGE temp of the plant in 2100, the question we should ask them is how OFTEN will we get SUDDEN vs MILD changes and is that percentage of sudden changes INCREASING during our reign on earth due to something we may have added to make the weather behavior change faster. Just my opinion. Same question for your stock advisor. Does the recent crisis make future time period between crises shorter? I think the last two decades show bullt into our financial markets a LONG TERM MEMORY much like the Great Depression did for investors now long dead or very old. So some of that conservatism (and less leveraging with other people's money) will perhaps get coded in rules, but it will also be encode in the global brain of the market. That is why without INSIDER knowledge, it is almost impossible to "beat the market." Climatologist have insider knowledge. Weathermen are day traders. Sometimes they are RIGHT and that is when you hear them roar.
Posted by Mike Clayton on Wed 13 Jan 2010 at 07:44 PM
To read up on the physics of climate behavior, remember that CHANGE is triggered by RARE EVENTS like Volcanic action above and under the sea which can add heat to the ocean or sulphur compounds to the air which COOL the planet and have caused ice ages in past.
Human impacts are not rare events in near time, but are rare in geological time, and they can move the system in a direction where OTHER rare events occur more frequently, like glacier melting, which can be self-feeding until another major volcanic eruption (or government geo-engineering...as proposed in Foreign Affairs a few months ago) causes cooling. I am betting that SOMEONE will test this geo-engineering idea out, and screw up "weather patterns" trying to fix a "climate problem."
The "statistics of extreme values" with power law models shows that BUBBLES are inevitable with unsustainable trends, but the frequency of variations or mini-bubbles tends NOT to be random, but clustered in time, just as cyclical stocks may appear predictable to some extent, but the peaks or valleys, or volatility indexes will be auto-correlated or clustered in time groups over the years, not random. That means RISK in the stock market and RISK in climatology are both UNDERSTATED by earlier simplified models. Given that scenario, what is the really conservative thing to do? China has just surpassed the US in greenhouse gas production. Bechtel et al built 50+ coal plants in China per year. Human activity does make a difference in POLLUTION which SEEMS to have an impact on CLIMATE (increasing temp) by not perhaps on local short term WEATHER. Just as a few market mini-bubbles are already showing hypergeometric trending, unsustainable. In the long run, science will prevail and corrective actions may, as in market failures, be extremely costly.
http://videolectures.net/risc08_sornette_fcrm/
Posted by Mike Clayton on Wed 13 Jan 2010 at 10:38 PM
Once you read this, it should be clear what is driving AGWing [as opposed to what is driving the Climate] to the most causal of observers; except those stuck down in Middle Earth by Circular Logic. AGWing is trying to force a change in the wealth and power structure of the globe, not stop climate from changing. Unless you are stuck in Middle Earth, how silly is trying to STOP the climate from changing in the first place? Climate, Stop Changing darn it You Lilliputians in Middle Earth really need help. Look what your AGWing dogma got you to believe you could do! Stop the Climate from changing. Look behind the curtain at what your puppet masters are really doing here;
http://www.upstreamonline.com/live/article203407.ece
Most Sovereign Wealth from Energy
US fund company State Street Global Advisors said today that it had identified 37 major sovereign wealth funds across the world worth $3 trillion, of which more than two-thirds came from oil and gas interests.
News wires Thursday, 14 January, 2010, 01:13 GMT
All of the 37 had at least $3 billion in assets and eight had more than $100 BILLION, it said.
SSGA said its study of the companies, many of which it does business with, showed about 70% of the wealth held by the state-sponsored funds came from oil and gas revenues. Only 13 of the 37 SWFs were not based on commodity wealth.
Asia had the largest number of SWFs at 13, but the 10 funds based in the Middle East had nearly half the wealth, or 46%, between them.
SSGA said SWFs were now coming under closer scrutiny at home as well as abroad and in turn were becoming more focused on their own internal governance.
It said, however, that one issue still to be addressed by the funds is to what extent they will become active shareholders in any companies they invest in. "It is possible to foresee that SWFs will gradually evolve to more closely resemble their large institutional peers e.g. large public sector pension funds and endowment funds, in terms of active ownership and the exercise of shareholder rights," State Street said, reported Reuters.
Posted by Albert J on Thu 14 Jan 2010 at 09:24 AM
Middle Earth has finally collapsed upon it's self into a Black Hole of Secular Circular Logic. Beware all you 'Secular Saints', you don't get sucked into the Black Hole now. Middle Earthers are suicidal for something that does not exist. The Puppet masters are done with the Lilliputians, now that the masters realize there is only enough wealth left for them after the big Collapse. You've been used (Stalin's term for you was 'Useful Idiots'). Utopia has died...
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/film/film-news/6977817/Avatar-fans-suicidal-because-planet-Pandora-is-not-real.html
Posted by Albert J on Thu 14 Jan 2010 at 11:30 AM
More HOT AIR, the definition of 'Crony Capitalism is found below. Read it slowly Elvis, and read my lips;
Washington, DC - In the face of rising unemployment and record-breaking deficits, policy experts at the National Center for Public Policy Research are criticizing the Obama Administration for awarding a half million dollar grant from the economic stimulus package to Penn State Professor Michael Mann, a key figure in the Climategate controversy.
"It's outrageous that economic stimulus money is being used to support research conducted by Michael Mann at the very time he’s under investigation by Penn State and is one of the key figures in the international Climategate scandal. Penn State should immediately return these funds to the U.S. Treasury," said Tom Borelli, Ph.D., director of the National Center's Free Enterprise Project.
Professor Mann is currently under investigation by Penn State University because of activities related to a closed circle of climate scientists who appear to have been engaged in agenda-driven science. Emails and documents mysteriously released from the previously-prestigious Climate Research Unit at the University of East Anglia in the United Kingdom revealed discussions of manipulation and destruction of research data, as well as efforts to interfere with the peer review process to stifle opposing views. The motivation underlying these efforts appears to be a coordinated strategy to support the belief that mankind's activities are causing global warming.
"It's no wonder that Obama's stimulus plan is failing to produce jobs. Taxpayer dollars aren't being used in the ways most likely to spur job creation. The stimulus was not sold to the public as a way to reward a loyalist in the climate change debate. Nor was the stimulus sold as a way to promote the Obama Administration's position on the global warming theory. This misuse of stimulus money illustrates why tax cuts are a better way to stimulate the economy than letting the government decide where to spend taxpayer dollars. As is often the case, political considerations corrupt the distribution of government funds," said Deneen Borelli, a fellow with the National Center's Project 21 black leadership network.
"Mann's credentials as a climate change alarmist seems to fit the political criteria for stimulus funds sometimes known as 'Obama money'," added Deneen Borelli.
Mann is a central and controversial figure in climate change research. Mann's so-called "hockey stick" graph depicting temperature changes over a 1000 year period was used as evidence in the United Nations' Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) 2001 report to demonstrate that carbon dioxide from industrial activity is causing global warming. Mimicking the shape of a hockey stick, the graph showed a long time period of stable temperatures (the shaft) followed by a rapid rise in temperatures (the blade) during the last hundred years.
Critics of the hockey stick claim Mann manipulated data to eliminate periods of time such as the medieval warming period and the little ice age to eradicate the visual impact of natural global temperature variation. The emails from Climategate reveal that the inner circle of climate scientists were troubled by the methods Mann used to produce the graph.
"It's shocking that taxpayer money is being used to support a researcher who seemingly showed little regard to the basic tenes of science - a dispassionate search for the truth," said Tom Borelli.
The $541,184 grant is for three years and was initiated in June 2009.
The National Center for Public Policy Research is a conservative, free-market think-tank established in 1982. It receives less than 1% of its revenue from corporations.
Posted by Albert J on Thu 14 Jan 2010 at 11:50 AM
Axel, just in case as a 'Secular Saint' you didn't figure out what 'Crony Capital'ism' is, here it is again morphed for you, pay attention;
Detroit — Nancy Pelosi toured the Detroit Auto Show this week, surveying her new domain: the auto industry. Billions in taxpayer dollars have been lavished on Detroit to keep the Democratic unions happy and to develop the electric cars Washington has picked out for the peasants. Of course, upstart automakers from Pelosi’s home state of California are also on the taxpayer-funded gravy train, in an attempt by Golden State pols to shift America’s auto center from the Midwest to Silicon Valley — but Tesla and Fisker don't make cars for the common folk.
The Ford Motor Company does, though, and plenty of them: Ford is the most successful Detroit automaker this year. And as it happens, Ford did not take a bite from Queen Nancy’s bailout apple — and she is not amused.
Posted by Albert J on Thu 14 Jan 2010 at 11:55 AM
'Splain to us all you AGWers, what this has to do with science and climate? Looks like a high stakes Global Poker game to 'lil 'ol me;
The failure of the UN climate summit in Copenhagen is a historical watershed that marks the beginning of the end of climate hysteria. Not only does it epitomise the failure of the EU’s environmental policy, it also symbolises the loss of Western dominance. The failure of the climate summit was not only predictable — it was inevitable. There was no way out from the cul-de-sac into which the international community has manoeuvred itself. The global deadlock simply reflects the contrasting, and in the final analysis irreconcilable interests of the West and the rest of the world. The result is likely to be an indefinite moratorium on the international climate legislation. After Copenhagen, the chances for a binding successor of the Kyoto Protocol are as good as zero.
The extent of the debacle and the shift in the balance of geopolitical power was demonstrated by the fact that the final accord was made without the participation of the European Union. The exclusion of Europe is a remarkable symbol of the EU’s growing loss of influence, a green bureaucracy that was not even asked whether they agreed with the non-binding declaration of China, India and the USA. Although the Copenhagen conference was held in a European capital, the negotiations and the final result of the conference were totally outside European involvement.
Climate poker
The visibly shaken EU leaders had to admit that they were taken by surprise and had been outmanoeuvred by China, India and the USA. US president Obama and the leaders of India and China had left Copenhagen long before the European heads of state were forced to agree with an accord which had been reached without their input. A rejection of the Asian-American Copenhagen Accord would have been an option, were it not that it would have pushed the EU into the extremist corner of Hugo Chavez and Robert Mugabe.
The failed climate summit caused a tectonic shift in international relations and left behind a new political landscape. After Copenhagen, green Europe looks rather antiquated and the rest of the world looks totally different. The principles on which Europe’s climate policies were founded and which formed the basis of the Kyoto Protocol have lost their power while the EU itself lost authority and influence.
True-blooded advocates of Realpolitik who hardly exist in the climate policy debate, had warned for a long time that Copenhagen would fail to bridge the divergent interests of the West and the developing countries. For political realists, it is no surprise whatever that all key decisions were postponed indefinitely. What is more, there is little doubt that China and India are the big winners of the Copenhagen climate poker. The two emerging superpowers managed to win new strategic allies, even among Western nations. China’s and India’s strategy to align themselves with other developing countries in opposition to protectionist threats by the U.S. and the EU proved itself as very successful. In the end, their persistent No even forced the Obama administration to join the anti-green alliance.
Posted by Albert J on Thu 14 Jan 2010 at 12:02 PM
There's more at the door, there's more!
America sees a diminished role for the United Nations in trying to stop global warming after the "chaotic" Copenhagen climate change summit, an Obama administration official said today.
Jonathan Pershing, who helped lead talks at Copenhagen, instead sketched out a future path for negotiations dominated by the world's largest polluters such as China, the US, India, Brazil and South Africa, who signed up to a deal in the final hours of the summit. That would represent a realignment of the way the international community has dealt with climate change over the last two decades.
"It is impossible to imagine a global agreement in place that doesn't essentially have a global buy-in. There aren't other institutions beside the UN that have that," Pershing said. "But it is also impossible to imagine a negotiation of enormous complexity where you have a table of 192 countries involved in all the detail."
Pershing said the flaws in the UN process, which demands consensus among the international community, were exposed at Copenhagen. "The meeting itself was at best chaotic," he said, in a talk at the Centre for Strategic and International Studies in Washington. "We met mostly overnight. It seemed like we didn't sleep for two weeks. It seemed a funny way to do things, and it showed."
The lack of confidence in the UN extends to the $30bn (£18.5bn) global fund, which will be mobilised over the next three years to help poor countries adapt to climate change.
"The UN didn't manage the conference that well," Pershing said. "I am not sure that any of us are particularly confident that the UN managing the near-term financing is the right way to go."
But we should let the UN handle the less important stuff, like peacekeeping, nuclear disarmament, terrorism, etc.?
Posted by Albert J on Thu 14 Jan 2010 at 12:04 PM
And finally, have a greaaaat Weekend of Global Warming because;
Bogus jobs kill real jobs. At Madrid's King Juan Carlos University, for instance, a study found that in Spain — the very country Obama has held out as the exemplar of greening (and with only a 19-plus percent unemployment rate!) — every green job created had destroyed 2.2 jobs in other sectors of the economy.
Posted by Albert J on Thu 14 Jan 2010 at 12:08 PM
Black Elvis, are you going to stand for this? Why, this is just outrageous!
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/film/film-news/6968020/Avatar-hit-by-claims-of-racism.html
Critics claims the story of a white US Marine who saves an alien race perpetuates the "white Messiah fable" and suggests that non-whites are primitives incapable of helping themselves.
Especially since we all know Axel is the 'Secular Messiah' now!
Posted by Albert J on Thu 14 Jan 2010 at 12:15 PM
Thanks. That was well worth reading. For Mike H, who asks reasonable questions based on his comparison of models between the two disciplines, I think the following link is enlightening: http://www.agu.org/meetings/fm09/lectures/lecture_videos/A23A.shtml
Posted by Al (not THE Al) on Fri 15 Jan 2010 at 03:58 AM
Adrian Vance is another Dunning Kruger case.
Apparently, he does not know that the amount of water vapor in the atmosphere is highly temperature dependent, while the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere is (to a first order) temperature *independent*. That's a critical distinction that causes the two gases to play very different roles with respect to greenhouse warming.
As one travels up in the atmospheric column, the water vapor concentration drops rapidly, while the CO2 concentration remains nearly constant. So at high altitudes, CO2 absorbs much more IR than water vapor does. Ditto for high latitudes -- the atmosphere is so cold over the poles that there's much less water vapor there. That magnifies the importance of CO2 in polar regions.
Take these factors into account, and it's easy to see that CO2 is a much more important greenhouse gas than Adrian's completely incorrect claims would suggest.
Posted by caerbannog on Sun 10 Jan 2010 at 02:01 AM
Water vapor is 3% of the atmosphere over 90% of Earth, never less than 1% over deserts and often 4% in temperature declines.
CO2 is an insignificant "trace gas" in every reference, but carbon is the key to great political power through taxing and regulation. That is what drives anthropogenic global warming, not the physics.
John Tyndall invented air analysis and concluded "Water vapor is the principle gas in atmospheric heating..." Svante Arrenhius, Sweden's greatest chemist wanted to heat Sweden with CO2 additions to air and gave up because it was not a good IR absorber. His paper was once on the NASA "On The Shoulders of Giants" website, but has been taken down. James Hansen says "Man made CO2 stays in the atmosphere 400 years," in violation of the fact that all molecules are the same regardless source. What is he calling for? Tiny pilots, Divine or Satanic intervention?
Posted by Adrian Vance on Fri 15 Jan 2010 at 12:27 PM
It is very clear why the war on Meteorologists by the AGWer propagandists like Charles Homans, et. al., - because it is the new 'pivot' from the current AGWer play book found here;
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1596985380/ref=nosim/nationalreviewon#reader_1596985380
"There is a clear attempt to establish 'truth' not by scientific methods but by perpetual repetition."
Richard S. Lindzen, PhD
Professor of Meteorology, M. I . T.
The play book was first exposed brilliantly by Michael Crichton in 'State of Fear', where all extreme weather and natural catastrophes [still waiting for the blame for Haiti on AGWing to come out soon] is blamed on AGWing. Until the current freeze in the northern hemisphere, LOL. Whoops. Need a new play book AGWers!
So, new play book is to blame the meteorologists for not repeating the big lie; don't investigate any thing scientifically. After all, it's for the ' greater good' according to our Secular Saints, right? And what the heck, according to the same Saints, even if AGWing is not true, after we tax everyone with Trillions of Carbon taxes we didn't need, at least we will get some really cool gadgets.
Plus, then the Secular Saints can become part of Gordon Brown's 'Green Shirts', the new Global Enviro Police, and see what it means to have power for the first time in their lives. We all know they would never abuse their new found power....not our new little 'Green Shirts' Axel, Black Elvis and Milli-Gram.
Posted by Albert J on Sat 16 Jan 2010 at 07:52 AM
I'm waring you Secular Saints to pick up on the ' Save the Iguana' Cause Celeb, before you go down in flames (pun intended). Your plays books are opened, your agendas are well known and your collusion is about to be blown wide open very soon, see below, for the perverbial ' Tip of the Iceberg' (more intended puns).
Unfortunately you may never get to experience power as a 'Green Shirt', because the AGWer ship is going down soon.
The very unfortunate unintended consequences will be very good scientists and science material becoming suspect because of your nonsense now. We can only hope to find a different mechanism or set of such to over ride the damage done to science by 'Agenda Driven' Science.
Here is the beginning of the Hansen-NASA GISS Climategate, the North American version......
Take a gander at this e-mail from the New York Times's Andrew Revkin to James Hansen — included below one of Hansen's missives messaging Andy's late entry into the fray with an apologia for which NASA's Reto Ruedy later gushed in thanks (causing Andy to despair, in apparent further apology that he couldn't do more, that the issue had become difficult for him to ignore). The thread is dated August 23, 2007:
" i never, til today, visited http://www.surfacestations.org and found it quite amazing. if our stations are that shoddy, what's it like in Mongolia?"
Oh, dear. Quite amazing — yet not quite newsworthy. Surface Stations is the brainchild of 25-year-veteran meterologist Anthony Watts, who created it to survey and catalog the quality of the sites that collect U.S. temperature data. Surface Stations propelled Watts's other site — Watts Up With That? — to its initial prominence, on the way to becoming the most heavily trafficked "climate" site and its selection as best science blog in 2008. So why should a Times environmental reporter bother with publicizing the work of a man so many (too many?) people were discovering on their own?
Speaking of crummy data and Mongolia — among other neighboring locales — some amazing discoveries have trickled into the open that will also receive a further airing shortly. Who knew that, for example, tiny China needs only 35 stations to tell us the country's surface temperature within a hundredth of a degree . . . such that more than 350 could be closed? We know the China data is valid.
Hansen, incidentally, merely agreed with Revkin that it would be good to improve station data, but plowed forward with his newfound obsession about the impropriety of focusing on U.S. temperatures, and individual years no less, which is really just a distraction. Because, you know, NASA would never do that.
That's just a taste of the fun stuff. The more serious issues will be aired later.
Posted by Albert J on Sat 16 Jan 2010 at 08:05 AM
For those of you Secular Saints still stuck in Middle Earth due to Circular Logic, here is a door way out, before it's too late.
This Scientific Evidence debunks any' man made' contribution to GWing, including any plant food emissions into the atmosphere (yes, we know the new play book pivot is sea critters can't make sea shells now, but this thread is about AGWing and meteorologists not getting on board to the big lie);
From the most in depth and contiguous Climate-TEMPURATURE data base available today, the Central England Temperatures data bases (CET), which is so far un-molested by James Hansen, Michael Mann, et. al,:
Based on the trends analysis done by Luboš Motl (read link), global warming during the first decade of the 21st century was somewhat similar to global warming trends of the 18th century. In fact, as his analysis shows, the 18th century warming was actually more robust than the current warming. His trend analysis work did not reveal any "man-made" signal confirming that human CO2 was causing "accelerating" temperatures.
http://www.c3headlines.com/2010/01/cet-temperatures.html
Whoops! 'Save those Iguanas' is looking pretty good right about now, hey Axel?
Posted by Albert J on Sat 16 Jan 2010 at 08:17 AM
My greatest apologies to all concerned, I had not seen this Secular Saint blaming Haiti on AWGing. Sorry for my hasty remarks earlier, I should know better by now!
http://blogs.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/timblair/index.php/dailytelegraph/comments/pact_with_gaia/
Actor Danny Glover believes that the Haitian earthquake was caused by climate change and global warming.
PS, this leaps off the pages of ' State of Fear' as earlier described.
Posted by Albert J on Sat 16 Jan 2010 at 08:22 AM
Here is a 'drop-in' fuel, meaning no engine reconfigurations have to be done, no infrastructure has to be redone, plus this is RENEWABLE BIOMASS, so why is the government blocking funding for the research and development and why aren't you AGWers on board?
Is it because of 'Crony Capitalism' because this process doesn't support those businesses involved with Big Green, Algore, the UN or the EU?
http://www.bellbioenergy.com/
Save those Iguanas now.
Posted by Albert J on Sat 16 Jan 2010 at 08:41 AM
"The problem is an unequal distribution of wealth, plain and simple."
Michael Moore, 2009
'Crony' Capitalists that back AGWing;
Michael Moore, Moore himself is one of these ultra-wealthy few, with a net worth exceeding $50 million. On November 1, 2005, World Net Daily reported that the anti-capitalist Moore -- who had proudly declared "I don't own a single share of stock!" -- in fact owned tens of thousands of shares in U.S. stocks. Most notably, Moore owned more than 2,000 shares in Halliburton -- the gas and oil company he excoriated in his film Fahrenheit 9/11.
Albert Gore Jr., who's father voted against the Civil Rights act, his net worth due primarily to 'Big Green' is > US$ 110 million, plus a boat named the BS-1
Bill and Hillary Clinton, net worth > US$ 110 million
George Soros, net worth > US$ 1 Billion
Nancy Pelosi, Speaker of the US House, > US$ 90 million
Dr. R.K. Pachauri, Chairman of the IPCC at the UN, hold's 47% equity in TERI, the so called 'Not for profit Org', http://uddebatt.wordpress.com/tag/pachauri/
We could go on for ever....if you don't 'get it' by now, you never will. You are stuck in Middle earth due to Circular logic.
Posted by Albert J on Sat 16 Jan 2010 at 08:56 AM
Who is the scumbag author of this piece of garbage? Weather people don't believe in climate change because it isn't true! Unbelievable! Has this moron not read about "climate gate" where the scumbag scientists that created this fraud were caught RED HANDED faking the data?! To attack the credentials of the weather men when most idiotic global warming alarmists are holding up garbage articles from people completely outside of the scientific field all together like Naomi Oreskes as "proof" of the global warming scam? Unbelievable that idiots like this author are given a platform to broadcast their misinformation at all. Educate yourselves, read a book with real documentation on scientific proof like "The Politically Incorrect Guide to Global Warming" by Christopher Horner or check out The Petition Project: http://www.petitionproject.org/ Thank god our TV weather people aren't going along with this giant scam fraud no matter what the reason our their qualification
Posted by Don Mason on Sat 16 Jan 2010 at 01:30 PM
Axel and all you other Secular Saints; in case you can't quite grasp what the Circular Logic is that keeps you trapped in Middle Earth, here is one of many great examples below. I'm sure it seems 'logical' to you in Middle Earth that you don't need 'real' science [in fact you believe due to manipulation of the CRU and GISS data sets you have 'real' science and that skeptics are the pseudo-scientists], because only your handlers know the truth, and besides, 'it's for the greater good'. But in practice, here is what is really going on 'behind the curtains' of 'Circular Logic', whether applying it to AGWing, or many other popular 'Cause Celebs';
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/washington/2010/01/joe-biden-update.html
Joe Biden update: He meets on transparency today. But the meeting is closed.
The LA Times is hardly a right wing outpost. You've been 'had' Axel. Escape from Middle Earth. Walk off the Circular Logic plantation and use your head, think for your self.
Posted by Albert J on Sun 17 Jan 2010 at 04:54 AM
Wow, imagine this! And you heard it first right here;
Taxpayers' millions paid to Indian institute run by UN climate chief
Millions of pounds of British taxpayers' money is being paid to an organisation in India run by Dr Rajendra Pachauri, the controversial chairman of the UN climate change panel, despite growing concern over its accounts.
Can you spell 'Crony Capitalism' now Axel?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/environment/climatechange/7005963/Taxpayers-millions-paid-to-Indian-institute-run-by-UN-climate-chief.html
Posted by Albert J on Sun 17 Jan 2010 at 10:15 AM
What is the average age of the climatologists who reject anthropogenic climate change (since the lead example here is in his 70s)? My examination of climate science skeptics vs. IPCC scientists found that the former tend to be significantly older, as based on the year of their last degree awarded. They also tend to have fewer relevant publications and lack experience in a climate science field.
http://lippard.blogspot.com/2009/12/who-are-climate-change-skeptics.html
Posted by Jim Lippard on Mon 18 Jan 2010 at 10:09 AM
Jim,
I'd bet these older anti-AGW scientists are also a lot less likely to be the focus of academic misconduct investigations and whole lot less likely to be the recipients of millions of dollars in IPCC grants, too...
You think?
Funny how the choice of metrics changes the perspective, huh?
Indeed, as Michael Mann proves, an AGW proponent can both be under investigation for misconduct and also still receive six-figure grants.
Posted by padikiller on Mon 18 Jan 2010 at 10:58 PM
If anyone is sincerely interested in understanding some of the science behind the belief that CO2 being released into the atmosphere by humans is causing global warming, I suggest you take a look at The Discovery of Global Warming at http://www.aip.org/history/climate/ (aip is, BTW, the American Institute of Physics).
Posted by Tina on Thu 21 Jan 2010 at 12:39 AM
Mike H: You are making an entirely fundamental mistake regarding your argument against modeling. First of all most climate scientists are VERY familiar with meteorological models since they have been running them for about 20 years. Second, the propagation of errors in the model is irrelevant for predicting climate. You're confusing weather and climate. The model can be 100% wrong on the weather and predict the climate with near-perfect accuracy. That is not a contradiction at all. Your arguments are pretty much nonsense, and have been taken into account by climate modelers for over a decade now. You make is sound as if there is no way to verify climate models and their biases and errors. Again, that is nonsense....we've been running verifications for well over a decade.
Posted by Edwin on Fri 22 Jan 2010 at 01:10 AM
like evolution, global warming is a FACT. it doesnt matter what the skeptics say, the FACT remains. the temperature is going up, the earth is warming. this has been recorded. glaciers are melting, also well documented. spring is arriving earlier and fall later which has also been well recorded.
so say al gore this and al gore that and pretend the researchers are getting rich and are marxists or whatever in your fantasy worlds. these are all what children start screaming when they have no argument. believe whatever you believe, it doesnt change FACTS.
also, learn something or 2 about the scientific definition of "theory" and computer modeling. so many illiterates...
Posted by reality on Fri 22 Jan 2010 at 04:27 PM
"...warming trends were far more dependent on the water vapor in the atmosphere than carbon dioxide, he told them, and the appearance of an uptick in global temperatures was the result of the declining number of weather stations in cold rural areas.
These theories were not only contradictory of each other, but had also been considered and rejected by climate researchers years ago. "
Put up or shut up. Which of his theories was rejected by climate researchers years ago?
The theory that water is a more potenet greenhouse gas than CO2 has been rejected? I'm pretty sure that's a pillar of climate consensus. The warming caused by CO2 causes more water in the air, which amplifies the effect of the CO2.
Climate researchers rejected any impact from biasing of stations in cold rural areas years ago? How many years ago? I don't recall reading a rebuttal to that theory in the journals years ago. I don't remember reading that theory years ago, even.
And how are those two statements contradictory?
Your polemic is weak. You discredit yourself more than your targets.
Posted by Duncan on Fri 22 Jan 2010 at 04:52 PM
The earth is indeed warming, and has done so ever since the Little Ice Age ended.
Take a look at this link, they ignored northerly temperature monitoring stations in Canada and just concentrated on more southerly ones (in order to make the conclusion that the earth is warming). Global warming (as caused by CO2) is junk science. The earth goes through cycles of heating and cooling. Better global warming than global cooling, people will starve if the earth cooled. Global warming will allow some countries to have a longer growing climate.
http://www.ottawacitizen.com/technology/Canadian+weather+data+being+ignored+researchers+allege/2466343/story.html
Posted by observer on Fri 22 Jan 2010 at 04:54 PM
To describe climatic warming in global terms is wrong. Climate has always been--and always will be--a regional phenomenon. In some areas (Los Angeles) the night time temperatures have progressively risen since the advent of automobiles and asphalt (for obvious reasons.) For less than obvious reasons the glaciers have retreated in Alaska during the same period.
Posted by ralph on Fri 22 Jan 2010 at 09:05 PM
Reality needs a "reality" check. There are huge leaps of faith for "Evolution" as the "Origin of the Species" to be taken as fact. Fact number 1) reality....how do you accidentally get 'life' from the 'inanimate' scientifically, Huh? Show us in a laboratory how it's done, will you? Until you do that, "Evolution" as the 'origin of the species' is just a Theory, a mostly debunked one at that. If by "Evolution" you mean that 'species can learn', well, Duh! What does that have to do with the Hoax of AGWing and weathermen not wanting to become propagandists for climate alarmists? Who is John Galt?
Posted by Albert J on Sun 24 Jan 2010 at 05:14 AM
Reality: Here is AWGing falling apart at the seams, along with your statements as "facts" (In 'Reality', your statements are just opinions, not facts Reality,and your opinions are based on emotions, not based on science); latest climate headlines read...Inconvenient truth for Al Gore as his North Pole sums don't add up
Al Gore's office admitted that the percentage he quoted in his speech was from an old, ballpark figure,....U.N. Panel's Glacier-Disaster Claims Melting Away. Today, the IPCC issued a statement offering regret for the poorly vetted statements. "The Chair, Vice-Chairs, and Co-chairs of the IPCC regret the poor application of well-established IPCC procedures," the statement says, though it goes short of issuing a full retraction or reprinting the report.Who is John Galt?
Posted by Albert J on Sun 24 Jan 2010 at 05:26 AM
'Reality'; FACT must be substantiated with concrete evidence, be repeatable, measurable and stand up to peer-to-peer review. So far, the only FACT Al Gore can produce is, "We're all gonna die if we don't pay his companies Trillions in Carbon taxes". Show us conclusive evidence based on FACTS that humans are going to burn up the planet with man made CO2. On Evolution, please show us all the first FACT needed for 'Evolution as Origin of Life" to go from Theory to established FACT. Show us all how you get from rocks/gases/organics to "life" in a laboratory. And show us that it can be repeatable, measurable and pass peer-to-peer review. PS, if you can do that, we have a Nobel prize waiting for you. I hear a possibility that Al Gore's Nobel and Oscar is to be un-awarded soon. You state opinions based on emotions, not FACTS. Man up, show us the FACTS dude! Who is John Galt?
Posted by Albert J on Sun 24 Jan 2010 at 07:09 AM
PS, 'Reality', Albert Einstein and Nils Bohr debated Accidental'ism versus a Creator/Observer for 30 years. Your kind called Albert Einstein 'senile' in his old years. Care to bet on who wins the debate now that finally technology has caught up with the debate? Nils Bohr claimed his Standard Model of Physics was complete and that we could have an accidental Cosmos without an original Observer/Creator to start up the Uncertainty Principle (the U. P. is well proven FACT in physics by the way). Albert Einstein said wait a minute, back up the truck. You can't have a Cosmos where the Uncertainty Principle is proven without having also an Original Creator/Observer. The current Grid Model proves with in 90% that Albert Einstein wins the debate dude. You and the Secular Saints loose the debate finally, scientifically. The LHC will only take it from 90% to 98% proof. "God does not play dice with the Universe", is now science FACT. Accidental'ism is subservient to coherence, you loose the debate. Life didn't come from nothingness and random chaos. You loose the debate based on scientific FACTS.
Posted by Albert J on Sun 24 Jan 2010 at 07:21 AM
FACT?????BREAKING NEWS: scientist admits IPCC used fake data to pressure policy makers. From the Daily Mail
The scientist behind the bogus claim in a Nobel Prize-winning UN report that Himalayan glaciers will have melted by 2035 last night admitted it was included purely to put political pressure on world leaders.
Dr Murari Lal also said he was well aware the statement, in the 2007 report by the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC), did not rest on peer-reviewed scientific research.
In an interview with The Mail on Sunday, Dr Lal, the co-ordinating lead author of the report’s chapter on Asia, said: ‘It related to several countries in this region and their water sources. We thought that if we can highlight it, it will impact policy-makers and politicians and encourage them to take some concrete action.
‘It had importance for the region, so we thought we should put it in.’
Chilling error: The Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change wrongly asserted that glaciers in the Himalayas would melt by 2035
Dr Lal’s admission will only add to the mounting furore over the melting glaciers assertion, which the IPCC was last week forced to withdraw because it has no scientific foundation.
According to the IPCC’s statement of principles, its role is ‘to assess on a comprehensive, objective, open and transparent basis, scientific, technical and socio-economic information – IPCC reports should be neutral with respect to policy’.
The claim that Himalayan glaciers are set to disappear by 2035 rests on two 1999 magazine interviews with glaciologist Syed Hasnain, which were then recycled without any further investigation in a 2005 report by the environmental campaign group WWF.
It was this report that Dr Lal and his team cited as their source.
The WWF article also contained a basic error in its arithmetic. A claim that one glacier was retreating at the alarming rate of 134 metres a year should in fact have said 23 metres – the authors had divided the total loss measured over 121 years by 21, not 121.
Last Friday, the WWF website posted a humiliating statement recognising the claim as ‘unsound’, and saying it ‘regrets any confusion caused’.
Dr Lal said: ‘We knew the WWF report with the 2035 date was “grey literature” [material not published in a peer-reviewed journal]. But it was never picked up by any of the authors in our working group, nor by any of the more than 500 external reviewers, by the governments to which it was sent, or by the final IPCC review editors.’
In fact, the 2035 melting date seems to have been plucked from thin air.
Posted by Albert J on Sun 24 Jan 2010 at 07:28 AM
Here's another FACT, Reality: The Australian provides more background on the discovery of the IPCC’s misstatement of glaciation trends and also speculates about the impact of Glaciergate (it seems the suffix, like the poor, will always be with us). A key passage:
Fred Pearce, a British environmental journalist who has found himself at the centre of the Glaciergate row, agrees with Cogley's prediction and says the stakes are now dangerously high for Rajendra Pachauri, the head of the Nobel Prize-winning IPCC.
"People who want to undermine the science on climate change will be crawling over the report looking for another mistake like this and if they do find another one it will be curtains for Pachauri," Pearce says. "The way he has handled this glacier issue means he's now a sitting duck if anything else turns up."
Having accused the Indian government of peddling "voodoo science" when it criticised the IPCCs glacier claims, Pachauri this week was forced into a humiliating apology and admission that instead of being solid, peer-reviewed science the 2035 claim had actually been "cut and pasted" from a WWF (formerly world wildlife fund) campaign document that, in turn, was based on a single-source news article written by Pearce in 1999.
Posted by Albert J on Sun 24 Jan 2010 at 07:36 AM
FACTS based on Dr. James Hansen, who was discredited first by a Teenage girl from Canada, Reality??? From the UK Telegraph Jan 22nd, James Delingpole; James Hansen: Would you buy a used temperature data set from THIS man? Let’s have a closer look at the character and motives of the man in charge of NASA’s Goddard Institute for Space Studies (GISS), Dr James Hansen. Last year, he was described by his former course supervisor at NASA, Dr John Theon, as an “activist” and an embarrassment.
Or as the Great Booker puts it:
" If there is one scientist more responsible than any other for the alarm over global warming it is Dr Hansen, who set the whole scare in train back in 1988 with his testimony to a US Senate committee chaired by Al Gore. Again and again, Dr Hansen has been to the fore in making extreme claims over the dangers of climate change. (He was recently in the news here for supporting the Greenpeace activists acquitted of criminally damaging a coal-fired power station in Kent, on the grounds that the harm done to the planet by a new power station would far outweigh any damage they had done themselves.)"
Now reader Michael Potts has drawn my attention to yet further evidence of Dr Hansen’s radical, virulently anti-democratic instincts. He has lent his support to an eco-fascist book advising on ways to destroy western industrialisation through propaganda, guile and outright sabotage.
In a scary new book called Time’s Up – whose free online version titled A Matter Of Scale you can read here – author Keith Farnish claims:
"The only way to prevent global ecological collapse and thus ensure the survival of humanity is to rid the world of Industrial Civilization."
Like so many deep greens, Farnish looks forward to the End Times with pornographic relish (masquerading as mild reasonableness):
" I’m rarely afraid of stating the truth, but some truths are far harder to give than others; one of them is that people will die in huge numbers when civilization collapses. Step outside of civilization and you stand a pretty good chance of surviving the inevitable; stay inside and when the crash happens there may be nothing at all you can do to save yourself. The speed and intensity of the crash will depend an awful lot on the number of people who are caught up in it: greater numbers of people have more structural needs – such as food production, power generation and healthcare – which need to be provided by the collapsing civilization; greater numbers of people create more social tension and more opportunity for extremism and violence; greater numbers of people create more sewage, more waste, more bodies – all of which cause further illness and death."
He believes – as the Hon Sir Jonathon Porritt does – that mankind is a blot on the landscape and that breeding (or for that matter, existence) should be discouraged:
" In short, the greatest immediate risk to the population living in the conditions created by Industrial Civilization is the population itself. "
Posted by Albert J on Sun 24 Jan 2010 at 07:44 AM
Where have all the Secular Saints gone, long time, missing....Secular Saint Axel says , " There are no AGW skeptics worth listening to. None of them knows how best to 'focus' their minds for the improvement of society, and none of them are ready to do the necessary work to found their accusations on." Shall we ban DDT for the benefit of society Axel, and give the poor dieing by the millions every year from Malaria nets instead? Very Focused Axel. Most of the nets end up as fishing nets and wedding veils. For the betterment of society, as long as you fools aren't the ones dieing because DDT was banned fo no good scientific reason.
Thus Axel the Secular Saint claims to be superior to skeptics. Case closed, don't need no stinkin' science, don't let facts get in the way of AGWing Dogma or Accidental'ism Dogma now. Perhaps the Supreme 'Superior' has something to say in the end Axel? Perhaps you are not actually the Center of the Universe? But I suppose it didn't occur to you to calibrate your assumptions with science. There can't possibly be 6 billion centers of the Universe, hence I'm absolutely sure you personally are not the center (and hence superior to no one). It is your 'Superiority Complexes' demonstrated on this thread that is the root cause of your Fascist ideational tactics. You might want to take a look in the mirror as to where you AGWers are heading.You are the future 'Green Shirts" of the Algore clan.
Who do you think made the rules necessary for your precious 'Science' to work anyway Axel and Secular Saints? Hey? And who makes sure the rules are maintained and arbitrated daily, huh? Who makes sure the oxygen molecules are evenly distributed in your room at night so you don't suffocate when they 'arbitrarily decide' to accumulate in the corner in your virtual reality random chaos Universe, huh?
Pretty silly of you to buy into that Accidental'ism nonsense now isn't it, hey? Who is John Galt?
Posted by Albert J on Sun 24 Jan 2010 at 11:13 AM
This is what you jokers from the AGWing clan got out of Jokenhagen (so how do you propose to save the world from AGWing now???;
The Indian and Chinese governments have had a rethink on signing the Copenhagen Accord, officials said on Saturday, and the UN has also indefinitely postponed its Jan 31 deadline for countries to accede to the document.
An Indian official said that though the government had been thinking of signing the accord because it “did not have any legal teeth and would be good diplomatically”; it felt irked because of repeated messages from both UN officials and developed countries to accede to it.
Prime Minister Manmohan Singh has written to UN Secretary General Ban Ki-moon seeking a number of clarifications on the implications of the accord that India -- with five other countries -- had negotiated in the last moments of the Copenhagen climate summit in December, the officials said, speaking on condition of anonymity.
“That letter, and the defeat of the Democrats in the Massachusetts bypoll, has forced the UN to postpone the deadline indefinitely,” an official said. “With the Democrats losing in one of their strongholds, the chances of the climate bill going through the US senate have receded dramatically.
“So if the US is not going to reduce its greenhouse gas emissions by 17 percent, which was a very weak target anyway, why should we make any commitment even if it does not have any legal teeth?” the official said.
China also appears in no mood to sign the accord.
“With the deadline postponed, we are not going to sign now,” said a Chinese official now here to take part in the BASIC (Brazil, South Africa, India, China) meeting to chalk out a climate strategy.
The meeting of the four environment ministers Sunday is likely to end with the announcement of a fund they will set up to help other developing countries cope with the effects of climate change, said an official of the environment ministry.
Only four countries -- Australia, Canada, Papua New Guinea and the Maldives -- have signed the Copenhagen Accord so far, though Brazil, South Africa and South Korea have also indicated their willingness to do so.
Though Australia and Canada have signed, they have not indicated the greenhouse gas emission reductions they are committing under the accord -- something developed countries are supposed to do.
Posted by Albert J on Mon 25 Jan 2010 at 05:30 AM
"An Extreme claim demands 'extreme evidence' to back it up!"
Carl Sagan
"And a solution that involves 'significant uncertainty' is not a solution."
Albert J.
"You're all gonna die!"
Albert Gore Jr.
Where is John Galt?
Posted by Albert J on Mon 25 Jan 2010 at 09:14 AM
"Surprise, Surprise, Surprise!"
Gomer Pyle
From The Sunday Times, January 24, 2010, UN climate chief Rajendra Pachauri 'got grants through bogus claims'
The chairman of the UN's Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC), has used bogus claims that Himalayan glaciers were melting to win grants worth hundreds of thousands of pounds.
Rajendra Pachauri's Energy and Resources Institute (TERI), based in New Delhi, was awarded up to £310,000 by the Carnegie Corporation of New York and the lion's share of a £2.5m EU grant funded by European taxpayers.
It means that EU taxpayers are funding research into a scientific claim about glaciers that any ice researcher should immediately recognise as bogus. The revelation comes just a week after The Sunday Times highlighted serious scientific flaws in the IPCC's 2007 benchmark report on the likely impacts of global warming.
The IPCC had warned that climate change was likely to melt most of the Himalayan glaciers by 2035 - an idea considered ludicrous by most glaciologists. Last week a humbled IPCC retracted that claim and corrected its report.
Since then, however, The Sunday Times has discovered that the same bogus claim has been cited in grant applications for TERI.
One of them, announced earlier this month just before the scandal broke, resulted in a £310,000 grant from Carnegie.
An abstract of the grant application published on Carnegie's website said: "The Himalaya glaciers, vital to more than a dozen major rivers that sustain hundreds of millions of people in South Asia, are melting and receding at a dangerous rate.
"One authoritative study reported that most of the glaciers in the region "will vanish within forty years as a result of global warming, resulting in widespread water shortages."
The Carnegie money was specifically given to aid research into "the potential security and humanitarian impact on the region" as the glaciers began to disappear. Pachauri has since acknowledged that this threat, if it exists, will take centuries to have any serious effect.
The money was initially given to the Global Centre, an Icelandic Foundation which then channelled it, with Carnegie's involvement, to TERI.
The cash was acknowledged by TERI in a press release, issued on January 15, just before the glacier scandal became public, in which Pachauri repeated the claims of imminent glacial melt.
It said: ""According to predictions of scientific merit they may indeed melt away in several decades."
The same release also quoted Dr Syed Hasnain, the glaciologist who, back in 1999, made the now discredited claim that Himalayan glaciers would be gone by 2035.
He now heads Pachauri's glaciology unit at TERI which sought the grants and which is carrying out the glacier research.
Critics point out that Hasnain, of all people, should have known the claim that the Himalayan glaciers could melt by 2035 was bogus because he was meant to be a leading glaciologist specialising in the Himalayas.
Any suggestion that TERI has repeated an unchecked scientific claim without checking it, in order to win grants, could prove hugely embarrassing for Pachauri and the IPCC.
The second grant, from the EU, totalled £2.5m and was designed to "to assess the impact of Himalayan glaciers retreat".
It was part of the EU's HighNoon project, launched last May to fund research into how India might adapt to loss of glaciers.
Posted by Albert J on Mon 25 Jan 2010 at 09:42 AM
Axel, herebelow is all your "cool gadgets" we get from Trillions of tax dollars. Geee, I wonder why it's being spent inefficiently, let me see now....don't need no stinkin' science anyway, we get cool gadgets, right?
Pivot to Economic Illiteracy by Chris Horner
It's silly season in the run-up to this week's State of the Union address, in which President Obama will do everything he can to pretend that "green" bills are really "jobs" bills; consider that the cap-and-trade bills offer two years of assistance for the workers that piece of legislation would put out of work.
So it came to pass that five Democrat senators have — per today's Greenwire, just sent a letter to Obama boasting of their pet projects' inefficiency, naturally in the context of calling for more taxpayer subsidies. Signed by Sens. Bob Menendez of New Jersey, Debbie Stabenow of Michigan, Michael Bennet of Colorado, Ron Wyden of Oregon, and Kirsten Gillibrand of New York, Greenwire writes that the letter "highlights that solar technology 'creates more jobs per megawatt of energy produced than any other form of energy.'"
That's the thing about "green jobs." They require more man-hours per kilowatt hour (or similar measure of energy created). Our five Democratic senators seem not to notice that this the definition of "inefficiency." Which is why, as the same story notes, Obama recently said that until his most recent infusion of subsidies the wind and solar industries were "about to collapse."
Such a bargain. Can't imagine why there is insufficient private capital to keep these bubbles afloat. But wait til these mostly temporary jobs are unionized — as is the objective of the "blue-green alliance." Talk about a race to the bottom currently underway for biggest entitlement boondoggle ever.
Posted by Albert J on Mon 25 Jan 2010 at 10:29 AM
Oh Please of Secular Saints, say it aint' so, what do we do now? Black Elvis, Reality Check, Axel-rod and Milli-gram, please save us from all this madness! What ever will we don now, "Save the Iguanas" won't cut it for long! Oh Lord of Chaos, please save us! Maybe if we sacrifice a Tree, a Hurricane or a Glacier, maybe a Polar Bear, this madness will cease!
From The Sunday Times, January 24, 2010, UN wrongly linked global warming to natural disasters
THE United Nations climate science panel faces new controversy for wrongly linking global warming to an increase in the number and severity of natural disasters such as hurricanes and floods.
It based the claims on an unpublished report that had not been subjected to routine scientific scrutiny — and ignored warnings from scientific advisers that the evidence supporting the link too weak. The report's own authors later withdrew the claim because they felt the evidence was not strong enough.
The claim by the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC), that global warming is already affecting the severity and frequency of global disasters, has since become embedded in political and public debate. It was central to discussions at last month's Copenhagen climate summit, including a demand by developing countries for compensation of $100 billion (£62 billion) from the rich nations blamed for creating the most emissions.
Ed Miliband, the energy and climate change minister, has suggested British and overseas floods — such as those in Bangladesh in 2007 — could be linked to global warming. Barack Obama, the US president, said last autumn: "More powerful storms and floods threaten every continent."
Last month Gordon Brown, the prime minister, told the Commons that the financial agreement at Copenhagen "must address the great injustice that . . . those hit first and hardest by climate change are those that have done least harm".
The latest criticism of the IPCC comes a week after reports in The Sunday Times forced it to retract claims in its benchmark 2007 report that the Himalayan glaciers would be largely melted by 2035. It turned out that the bogus claim had been lifted from a news report published in 1999 by New Scientist magazine.
The new controversy also goes back to the IPCC's 2007 report in which a separate section warned that the world had "suffered rapidly rising costs due to extreme weather-related events since the 1970s".
It suggested a part of this increase was due to global warming and cited the unpublished report, saying: "One study has found that while the dominant signal remains that of the significant increases in the values of exposure at risk, once losses are normalised for exposure, there still remains an underlying rising trend."
The Sunday Times has since found that the scientific paper on which the IPCC based its claim had not been peer reviewed, nor published, at the time the climate body issued its report.
When the paper was eventually published, in 2008, it had a new caveat. It said: "We find insufficient evidence to claim a statistical relationship between global temperature increase and catastrophe losses."
Despite this change the IPCC did not issue a clarification ahead of the Copenhagen climate summit last month. It has also emerged that at least two scientific reviewers who checked drafts of the IPCC report urged greater caution in proposing a link between climate change and disaster impacts — but were ignored.
The claim will now be re-examined and could be withdrawn. Professor Jean-Pascal van Ypersele, a climatologist at the Universite Catholique de Louvain in Belgium, who is vice-chair of the IPCC, said: "We are reassessing the evidence and will publish a report on natural disasters and extreme weather with the latest findings. Despite recent events the IPCC process is still very rigorous and scientific."
Where is John Galt?
Posted by Albert J on Mon 25 Jan 2010 at 10:37 AM
Inspector Renault from Casablanca:
"I'm Shocked! Shocked! to find stupidity and corruption at the United Nations"
Where is John Galt?
Posted by Albert J on Mon 25 Jan 2010 at 10:51 AM
Hot Air Update for all you Secular Saints and AGWers;
"Dealing with global warming ranks at the bottom of the US public’s list of priorities; just 28% consider this a top priority, the lowest measure for any issue tested in the survey. Since 2007, when the item was first included on the priorities list, dealing with global warming has consistently ranked at or near the bottom. Even so, the percentage that now says addressing global warming should be a top priority has fallen 10 points from 2007, when 38% considered it a top priority. Such a low ranking is driven in part by indifference [to the AGWing Hoax]."
Save those Iguanas!
Posted by Albert J on Tue 26 Jan 2010 at 11:48 AM
It just keeps coming....
Alabama State Climatologist Dr. John Christy of the University of Alabama in Huntsville, served as a UN IPCC lead author in 2001 for the 3rd assessment report and detailed how he personally witnessed UN scientists attempting to distort the science for political purposes.
"I was at the table with three Europeans, and we were having lunch. And they were talking about their role as lead authors. And they were talking about how they were trying to make the report so dramatic that the United States would just have to sign that Kyoto Protocol," Christy told CNN on May 2, 2007. - (For more on UN scientists turning on the UN years ago, see Climate Depot's full report. )
Christy has since proposed major reforms and changes to the way the UN IPCC report is produced. Christy has rejected the UN approach that produces "a document designed for uniformity and consensus." Christy presented his views at a UN meeting in 2009. The IPCC needs "an alternative view section written by well-credentialed climate scientists is needed," Christy said. "If not, why not? What is there to fear? In a scientific area as uncertain as climate, the opinions of all are required," he added.
'The reception to my comments was especially cold'
Has Anyone any where seen John Galt? How about Ellie Light?
Posted by Albert J on Tue 26 Jan 2010 at 01:35 PM
AGWing is now officially Toast! In a recent poll it was Dead LAST in items of priority to worry about in the USA. and now your AWGing clan has lost Davos. You didn't even make the top 6 concerns! The next convention changed from Mexico City to Cancun, so it's officially just a party stop from now on, nothing serious to worry about.
The program at Davos. Sure, it's still rife with the words "climate change" but generally in the context of energy — specifically, how to get continued financing for the "green" energy projects all of these participants leapt into when they saw their pals in government taking your billions and transferring them to these inefficient "investments." But then I viewed the proceedings. After a few minutes of PC-babble, World Economic Forum executive chairman Klaus Schwab reported on the relative importance given to various issues: water is first, and the "greatest threat facing mankind" . . . doesn't even make the top six.
When you've lost Davos — on a pet project of wealthy elites and rent-seekers — you might want to tell your clients to short the thing.
Just in case you are heavily invested in ALgore Green stocks or Carbon Trades, you might want to quietly DUMP them all!
Anybody find out who Ellie Light is yet?
Posted by Albert J on Wed 27 Jan 2010 at 10:54 AM
Charles Homans, this explains exactly why you AGWers are anti-meteorologists; Because they busted your scam and Hoax wide open.
The Science & Public Policy institute, SPPI, has a new and lengthy PDF report — bringing together material from Watts Up With That, Climate Audit, and other sources — that addresses various temperature-data issues and controversies. It's a 6MB download, but a summary:
Authors veteran meteorologists Joe D’Aleo and Anthony Watts analyzed temperature records from all around the world for a major SPPI paper, Surface Temperature Records – Policy-driven Deception? The startling conclusion that we cannot tell whether there was any significant “global warming” at all in the 20th century is based on numerous astonishing examples of manipulation and exaggeration of the true level and rate of “global warming”.
That is to say, leading meteorological institutions in the USA and around the world have so systematically tampered with instrumental temperature data that it cannot be safely said that there has been any significant net “global warming” in the 20th century.
First, they called it “global warming”. Then they noticed there had been no warming for 15 years, and cooling for 9, so they hastily renamed it “climate change”. Then they noticed the climate was changing no more than it ever had, so they tried “energy security”, and even named a Congressional Bill after it. Then they noticed that most Western nations already had bountiful energy security, in the form of vast, untapped domestic supplies of oil, gas, coal, or all three, so they switched to “ocean acidification”.
This is the new phantasmagoric for the tired, old scare whipped up by the NRDC and the environmental extremist movement for their own profit at our expense. The world’s corals, they tell us, will be eaten away by the acidified ocean within not more than ten years hence. Shellfish will be no more, their calcified carapaces and exoskeletons dissolved by the carbonic acid caused by our burning of fossil fuels. The oceans will die. Sound familiar?
Yet, as the indefatigable Craig Idso here demonstrates, the scientific consensus — if science were done by consensus at all, which it is not — is that the rising “ocean acidification” scare is just more piffle.
Posted by Albert J on Wed 27 Jan 2010 at 11:04 AM
AGWers and Secular Saints, meet your new enemy: Bill Gates. From Climate Progress, Bill Gates disses energy efficiency, renewables, and near-term climate action while embracing the magical thinking of Bjorn Lomborg (and George Bush)
Coincidentally, Gates is funding geoengineering research.
UPDATE: Gates is . . . unconcerned.
Posted by Albert J on Wed 27 Jan 2010 at 11:17 AM
We found 'Ellie Light', now if we can just find John Galt!
A male health-care worker who appears to be Ellie Light – the letter writer whose name appeared in dozens of newspapers nationwide praising President Obama – also is a diarist for the far-left Daily Kos website and an online friend of an individual tied to a radical pro-Obama group associated with William Ayers' Weathermen terrorist organization.
Winston Steward, 51, of Frazier Park, Calif., told the Cleveland Plain-Dealer he made up the name "Ellie Light" to protect himself from criticism.
Perhaps Winston Steward also helped the CRU 'Hide the Decline' and James Hansen hide the Medieval Warming Period?
Is Axel, aka, Milli-gram, aka Reality-check, aka Black Elvis really Winston?
Stay tuned! Meanwhile, save those Iguanas!
Posted by Albert J on Thu 28 Jan 2010 at 07:44 AM
What's the matter with all you Secular Saints and AGWers out there? Stop drinking Lattes and get out there and save the world! And the Iguanas! People are dieing! We're all gonna die! The Children, the Children!
Climate change advocates must match the intensity of conservative “tea party” activists, Sen. John Kerry (D-Mass.) said Wednesday.
“I want you to go out there and to start knocking on doors, and talking to people and telling people, ‘This has to happen,’ ” Kerry said in a speech at a climate and energy forum hosted by labor, farm and environmental groups.
“If tea party folks can go out there and get angry because they think their taxes are too high, for God's sakes a lot of citizens ought to get angry about the fact that they are being killed and our planet is being injured on a daily basis by the way that we provide our power and our fuel and the old practices,” Kerry added.
Kerry is trying to craft a compromise climate and energy bill with Sens. Lindsey Graham (R-S.C.) and Joe Lieberman (I-Conn.).
Posted by Albert J on Thu 28 Jan 2010 at 07:53 AM
From the 'State of the Confusion' speech last night: 28 January 2010
President Barack Obama appeared to back away from creating a market in planet-warming emissions in his State of the Union speech yesterday in a bid to save the stalled climate change bill, while reaching out to Republicans by promoting nuclear energy and offshore drilling.
Call your brokers now, SELL, SELL, SELL. I hear there is a good deal on Al's boat, the BS-1!
Who is John Galt?
Posted by Albert J on Thu 28 Jan 2010 at 09:03 AM
From the Times of London: Science chief John Beddington calls for honesty on climate change, An excerpt:
The impact of global warming has been exaggerated by some scientists and there is an urgent need for more honest disclosure of the uncertainty of predictions about the rate of climate change, according to the Government’s chief scientific adviser.
John Beddington was speaking to The Times in the wake of an admission by the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) that it grossly overstated the rate at which Himalayan glaciers were receding.
Professor Beddington said that climate scientists should be less hostile to sceptics who questioned man-made global warming. He condemned scientists who refused to publish the data underpinning their reports.
He said that public confidence in climate science would be improved if there were more openness about its uncertainties, even if that meant admitting that sceptics had been right on some hotly-disputed issues.
Try honesty? How revolutionary.
Posted by Albert J on Thu 28 Jan 2010 at 09:50 AM
Poor Silly Secular Saints and Alarmists of the World, please take note! NB: you can't 'pivot' when you are in Middle Earth utilizing nothing but "Circular Logic'! Circular Logic is eternally pivoting already silly!
Here's a money line from President Obama's global warming riff during the "State of the Confusion" speech, right from Secular Saint Axel's mouth;
"even if you doubt the evidence [for Man-made global warming], providing incentives for energy efficiency and clean energy are the right thing to do for our future. Because the nation that leads the clean energy economy will be the nation that leads the world."
Now, put aside the rather thin empirical or even theoretical evidence for his economic hypothesis, and recall then-senator Tim Wirth's eerily similar formulation in 1988 — the very same year he helped invent global warming as a policy issue with his "stagecraft" hearing featuring James Hansen, with Al Gore accompanying him on the Alarmacord:
“try to ride the global warming issue. Even if the theory of global warming is wrong, to have approached global warming as if it is real means energy conservation, so we will be doing the right thing anyway in terms of economic policy and environmental policy.”
Twenty-two years. Still waiting for warming. Still using the threat as the vehicle for Alarmist's agenda. And with rhetoric either cribbed or so closely paraphrased Wirth ought to demand a script credit. The very boldness of these fresh ideas and approaches send a thrill down my leg. Axel can demand copy rights!
Save the Iguanas!
Posted by Albert J on Thu 28 Jan 2010 at 09:58 AM
What? Water vapor (clouds) causes Global Warming? Isn't the by-product of Hydrogen Fuel cells water vapor?
Water vapour a 'major cause of global warming and cooling'
By David Derbyshire, Last updated at 7:47 AM on 29th January 2010
Climate scientists have overlooked a major cause of global warming and cooling, a new study reveals today.
American researchers have discovered that the amount of water high in the atmosphere is far more influential on world temperatures than previously thought.
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1246904/Water-vapour-responsible-slowdown-global-warming.html#ixzz0e0xRYRQ2
Posted by Albert J on Fri 29 Jan 2010 at 10:13 AM
Well, OK, now I'm convinced!!!!
If Osama Bin Laden believes in AGWing, then count me in now!
Posted by Albert J on Fri 29 Jan 2010 at 10:35 AM
The media sense blood in the water now, and besides, they need to pivot because the Hoax is exposed, so AGWers and Homans, how's it feel to be on the 'wrong side of sceince' now, hey?
UN climate change panel based claims on student dissertation and magazine article, The United Nations' expert panel on climate change based claims about ice disappearing from the world's mountain tops on a student's dissertation and an article in a mountaineering magazine.,,,
By Richard Gray, Science Correspondent and Rebecca Lefort
Published: 9:00PM GMT 30 Jan 2010
Posted by Albert J on Sun 31 Jan 2010 at 06:39 AM
Just in from the 'Hot Air' Blog:::Minnesota wind turbines won’t work in cold weather, posted at 12:00 pm on January 30, 2010 by Ed Morrissey
Minnesota invested itself in alternative energy sources years ago, and so the revelation that the state spent $3.3 million on eleven wind turbines hardly qualifies as news. However, the fact that they don’t work in cold weather does. KSTP reports that none of the wind turbines work, prompting the Twin Cities ABC affiliate to dub them “no-spin zones.”
Posted by Albert J on Sun 31 Jan 2010 at 08:21 AM
I have flown various aircraft around the world for the last 41 years. Each aircraft i have flown is equipped with at least two temperature sensors. I have also read detailed weather reports for thousands of locations as part of my job requirements.
Does this make me a climatologist? No absolutely not.
It does however qualify me to say that climatologists who believe in AGW are liars and frauds. I challenge the public to read these AGW studies and ask the simple questions. Would a tree ring study that rejects 11 trees from the data set and includes only one (that particular tree indicated possible warming) be accepted by my 8th grade science teacher?
Would that teacher accept temperature data that rejects high latitude and high elevation data and accepts lower latitude and elevation data. Would that get an A or an F?
Would a study that rejected rural temperatures, yet included urban temps in Russia, be accepted as valid by my 8th grade teacher?
Or would this so called scientist be traveling to school on the short bus.
The AGW "climatologists" could not graduate from junior high school using their scientific methods.
Posted by CNW on Sun 31 Jan 2010 at 10:07 AM
Of course it’s not about the fact that ‘scientists’ at EAU and the CRU ‘hockey stick’ bunch compromised science and their own integrity by conspiring to manipulate data, hide and destroy data, and cherry pick data to fit a pre-determined agenda to scare people into believing what is ultimately a ‘pseudo science’ HOAX, man made global warming.
It’s about the fact that some ‘spies’ uncovered the conspiracy that matters here!
Scientist: Climate Docs Maybe Stolen by Spies, Monday, 01 Feb 2010 07:02 AM
Britain's former chief science adviser says the theft of climate e-mails from the University of East Anglia in southern England may have been the work of spies.
He also speculated that the hacking may have been the work of U.S.-based lobbyists.
Posted by Albert J on Mon 1 Feb 2010 at 08:17 AM
'Save those Iguanas' must be looking pretty good as an alternative to AGWing by now, yes?
The White House has dropped projected revenues from a "cap-and-trade" mechanism to fight climate change from its new budget, an administration official said, bowing to the possibility that the US Congress may not pass it.
Posted by Albert J on Mon 1 Feb 2010 at 09:35 AM
Connect the dots, in teh same paper the Guardian: 1 Feb 2010;
How the 'climategate' scandal is bogus and based on climate sceptics' lies,
Claims based on email soundbites are demonstrably false – there is manifestly no evidence of clandestine data manipulation
Thenalso, 1 Feb 2010; Leaked climate change emails scientist 'hid' data flaws,
Exclusive: Key study by East Anglia professor Phil Jones was based on suspect figures.
A Guardian investigation of thousands of emails and documents apparently hacked from the University of East Anglia's climatic research unit has found evidence that a series of measurements from Chinese weather stations were seriously flawed and that documents relating to them could not be produced.
It also emerges that documents which Wang claimed would exonerate him and Jones did not exist.
Wang said: "I have been exonerated by my university on all the charges. When we started on the paper we had all the station location details in order to identify our network, but we cannot find them any more.
Days after receiving the request for information from the British climate change sceptic David Holland, Jones asked Prof Mike Mann of Pennsylvania State University in the United States: "Can you delete any emails you may have had with Keith [Briffa] re AR4? Keith will do likewise.
"Can you also email Gene [Eugene Wahl, a paleoclimatologist in Boulder, Colorado] and get him to do the same ... We will be getting Caspar [Ammann, also from Boulder] to do the same."
Any one seen John Galt?
Posted by Albert J on Tue 2 Feb 2010 at 06:48 AM
It seems there will never be a shortage of flat-earthers, no matter how far we progress. There will always be Puritans who think fire is magic, and not a chemical reaction. That anyone would take the opinions of "TV weathermen" as fact would be a lot funnier if it wasn't so sad and pathetic.
Posted by Greg Smith on Tue 2 Feb 2010 at 02:27 PM
Grego!!!! sweetybaby!!!!!!
Your "flat-eathers" are calling for proper scientific procedures and processes to be followed if we are going to believe your "OMG the sky is falling scenarios."
Making statements like the hurricanes are going to be "gigantic" and "the glaciers are melting" (of course, to be accompanied by the short film of the ice calving from a glacier. BTW a normal process that occurs with EVERY GLACIER that ends at the sea.) I included this fact because you obviously don't know very much about anything.
Well hunnychild, it sounds a lot like the "flat-earthers" are sane and the climate scientists are hysterical little children, who are having a major kaniption because the adults aren't falling for their BS.
Temperature isn't rocket science sweety. And these guys certainly aren't rocket scientists. The question now, is if they are really scientists at all?
Also, there is a little question about your deductive reasoning.
Posted by CNW on Wed 3 Feb 2010 at 12:41 AM
Greg Smith (Jones, etc.), look in the mirror, and you will see not only Flat Earth, but Circular logic Middle Earth also. Why are AGWers so afraid of real science now, hey? What makes climatologists any more qualified than weather men? No one climatologist is fully qualified in the 20 some odd scientific disciplines it takes to figure out the climate drivers and historical data any way.
Riddle me this Smith-Jones, and see if you aren't really on the wrong side of science, acting as a 'Green Shirt' AGWer Inquisitor (consensus, don't need science because it's de-facto fact, repeat the Big Lie, attack the messenger, pivot the message, all the ideational Fascist tactics employed by AGWers so far to avoid via circular logic confronting the real hurdles below making yuor AGWer Theory less than fact):
Here is a list of serious hurdles AGWing needs to climb successfully before Theory and consensus becomes scientific fact;
1) How come the Medieval Warming Period was as warm or warmer than today without industrialization CO2 emissions?
2) How come after WWII, with a huge industrial spurt and exponential growth in CO2 emissions, there was a cooling trend for many years?
3) How come we have been on a cooling trend for the last 10 years, longer if we eliminate the 1998 El Nino affect?
4) How can you apply any credibility to any computer model when the CRU and GISS data bases can no longer be trusted?
5) How can you apply any credibility to any computer model when none can accurately reverse calculate correctly climate for the last 1 million years or predict the weather 3 months from now? In fact, a computer model with a data base of random numbers predicted more accurately then some of those AGWers base their conclusions on!
6) How will you constraint the difference between normal warming and man made warming? What are the errors involved ins such constraints?
7) What is the volume and size of the atmosphere now? What was it 50, 100 years ago?
8) How is the % sampling smoothed over the entire atmosphere, and what are the errors involved in the 'smoothing'?
9) How much radiation is captured as CO2 emissions continue to rise? Current research suggests this is far from linear and may even level off in affects for temperatures.
Posted by Albert J on Wed 3 Feb 2010 at 07:11 AM
Greg-Gary Smith-Jones etc, in case you got lost in Flat and Middle Earth, here are today's head lines;
Climate change emails between scientists reveal flaws in peer review
A close reading of the hacked emails exposes the real process of science, its jealousies and tribalism
Read more: doubts about "hockey stick" graph revealed
No apology from IPCC chief Pachauri for glacier fallacy
Both Russian and Chinese temperature data sets are being doubted now. Much of the data has disappeared.
Anyone seen John Galt lately?
Posted by Albert J on Wed 3 Feb 2010 at 07:23 AM
Bye Bye AGWing!
The Emerging Post-Climategate Consensus [Edward John Craig]
It has been an interesting couple of days for the Guardian's Fred Pearce.
On February 1, he wrote a piece called "How the 'climategate' scandal is bogus and based on climate sceptics' lies." No surprise there, considering Pearce is an environmental writer at the left-wing Guardian and someone inclined to slap the title The Last Generation: How Nature Will Take Her Revenge for Climate Change on his latest book — a volume blurbed by Gaia fantasist James Lovelock thus: "We are now at war with Gaia and have no chance whatever of winning. Fred Pearce's scholarly and thoughtful book analyzes the battlefield and will guide us in a sensible retreat to the place where we can negotiate a peace." So that all fits, right?
But, uh, then — in short order — came these Pearce entries (still in the Guardian, mind you):
Feb. 1: "Strange case of moving weather posts and a scientist under siege"
Feb. 1: "Leaked climate change emails scientist 'hid' data flaws"
Feb. 2: "Controversy behind climate science's 'hockey stick' graph"
Feb. 2: "Climate change emails between scientists reveal flaws in peer review"
Feb. 2: "No apology from IPCC chief Rajendra Pachauri for glacier fallacy"
Don't stop now, Mr. Pearce — you're on a roll.
Posted by Albert J on Wed 3 Feb 2010 at 07:35 AM
In discussing Climategate in the Financial Post, Kevin Libin notes not only the financial interests but the ideological blinders that can interfere with purely scientific inquiry.
[T]he events that have now been dubbed "Climategate" provide an important public service, reminding us that scientists, too, can be close-minded and crooked.
Environmental alarmists have long insinuated as much, baselessly smearing critical scientists — the esteemed MIT climatologist Richard Lindzen; former National Academy of Sciences president Frederick Seitz — as corrupt industry shills. James Hoggan, the chairman of the David Suzuki Foundation, calls skeptics "fake" scientists peddling "deception." But having implied that scientists can be led astray, why assume only IPCC types are immune? The climate panic is, after all, rather big business itself (as Weaver's publisher knows). The CRU alone lured $22 million in research grants; Greenpeace and the World Wildlife Fund raised almost a half-billion dollars last year; Al Gore made a mint investing in CO2-reducing firms.
It's naïve to presume that nowhere could there be vested interests in this great slush of shekels. But it isn't just money that can blind scientists to truth; they are, like us, mere emotional and fallible mortals. As David Resnik, the National Institute of Environmental Health Sciences bioethicist, has written, universities promote ethical research codes precisely because biases exist (though such codes are only as good as those upholding them). Bias happens, too, "when researchers fail to critically examine their work because they want to believe that their research is accurate," Resnik notes. Or where they see only "what they want or expect to see."
Posted by Albert J on Wed 3 Feb 2010 at 07:42 AM
John Coleman, founder of the Weather Channel, in an hour-long television documentary titled "Global Warming: The Other Side," presents evidence that our National Climatic Data Center has been manipulating weather data just as the now disgraced and under investigation British University of East Anglia Climate Research Unit. The NCDC is a division of the U.S. National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration. Its manipulated climate data is used by the Goddard Institute of Space Studies, which is a division of the National Aeronautical and Space Administration. John Coleman's blockbuster five-part series can be seen at www.kusi.com/weather/colemanscorner/81583352.html.
The Coleman documentary presents research by computer expert E. Michael Smith and Certified Consulting Meteorologist Joseph D'Aleo. During the 1960s and into the 1980s, the number of stations used for calculating global surface temperatures was about 6,000. By 1990, the number of stations dropped rapidly to about 1,500. Most of the stations lost were in the colder regions of the Earth. Not adjusting for their lost made temperatures appear to be higher than was in fact the case. According to Science & Environmental Policy Project, Russia reported that CRU was ignoring data from colder regions of Russia, even though these stations were still reporting data. That means data loss was not simply the result of station closings but deliberate decisions by CRU to ignore them in order to hype their global warming claims. D'Aleo and Smith report that our NCDC engaged in similar deceptive activity where they have dropped stations, particularly in colder climates, higher elevations or closer to the polar regions.
Posted by Albert J on Wed 3 Feb 2010 at 07:46 AM
Crony capitalism = the following;
Mounting evidence of scientific fraud might make little difference in terms of the response to manmade global warming hysteria. Why? Vested economic and political interests have emerged where trillions of dollars and social control are at stake. Therefore, many people who recognize the scientific fraud underlying global warming claims are likely to defend it anyway. Automobile companies have invested billions in research and investment in producing "green cars." General Electric and Phillips have spent millions lobbying Congress to outlaw incandescent bulbs so that they can force us to buy costly compact fluorescent light bulbs (CFL). Farmers and ethanol manufacturers have gotten Congress to enact laws mandating greater use of their product, not to mention massive subsidies. Thousands of major corporations around the world have taken steps to reduce carbon emissions including giants like IBM, Nike, Coca-Cola and BP, the oil giant. Companies like Google, Yahoo and Dell have vowed to become "carbon neutral."
Then there's Chicago Climate Futures Exchange that plans to trade in billions of dollars of greenhouse gas emission allowances. Corporate America and labor unions, as well as their international counterparts have a huge multi-trillion dollar financial stake in the perpetuation of the global warming fraud. Federal, state and local agencies have spent billions of dollars and created millions of jobs to deal with one aspect or another of global warming.
It's deeper than just money. Schoolteachers have created polar-bear-dying lectures to frighten and indoctrinate our children when in fact there are more polar bears now than in 1950. They've taught children about melting glaciers. Just recently, the International Panel on Climate Change was forced to admit that their Himalayan glacier-melting fraud was done to "impact policy makers and politicians and encourage them to take some concrete action."
Posted by Albert J on Wed 3 Feb 2010 at 10:14 AM
Cosmic Ray Theory of Climate Control:
It is most interesting to see interdisciplinary real science being applied in the Cosmic Ray Theory (by the way a Theory with only 1 abnormality to explain over 1 million years of climate history, unlike AGWers models and data bases now in question).
Interesting also that scientists didn't even know how clouds were formed until this research took place, just a few years ago.
Is there global warming? Yes, it appears to be following previous trends in history, with a cooling period now in affect for the next 20-30 years. Is there abnormal accelerating Global Warming due to human emitted CO2? There seems to be no "peer-2-peer concrete evidence" of this yet. There is significant doubt on a lot of work done so far because of the corrupted CRU and GISS data bases utilized in the majority of the research so far however.
Is there a current cooling trend in spite of "increased human emitted CO2" over the last decade? Yes, there is a slight cooling now for the last 10 years, longer if you exclude the 1998 El Nino year, and cooling appears to be with us for the next 20-30 years.
Did the Medieval Warming Period get as warm as today with industrial CO2? Yes it did.
Did AGWers try to take out every mention of this MWP in Wikipedia? Yes they did. Why would they do that?
Is there a reliable computer model that can predict weather & micro-climate patterns accurately for the next 6 months? No, none exist today. If you have one, sign up for your Nobel prize and commercialize it, because every weather prediction service will pay big bucks for it.
Did the Industrial growth after WWII produce a significant increase in warming corresponding directly to the amount of increased CO2? No, there was a cooling trend.
We can write an Encyclopedia about what is wrong with the AGWer "Theory". Guess what, that makes it suspect. That's science, deal with it! Live by science, die by science. Get over it. Even Galileo got his Tidal theories wrong.
Posted by Albert J on Wed 3 Feb 2010 at 12:21 PM
Waiting for that peer-2-peer reviewed computer model that can accurately predict the weather and micro-climate patterns 6 months for now you AGWers!
I have a buyer locked in and ready to spring big $$$ for this.
Come on, let's have it! Ready to invest heavily in this...need to act now!
Posted by Albert J on Wed 3 Feb 2010 at 01:24 PM
Feeding on their own!
Greenpeace UK is putting pressure on IPCC chief Rajendra Pachauri to resign over Glaciergate.
Posted by Albert J on Thu 4 Feb 2010 at 04:05 AM
Obama's Secret Slush Fund
President Obama and Budget Director Peter Orszag have thrown transparency out the window and created a black box for taxes and spending on climate change hidden inside the administration's 2011 budget.
The big news in last year’s budget release was the revelation that the Obama administration planned to use cap-and-trade to raise $646 billion dollars over ten years to finance its big spending programs. At the time I wrote here in the Fox Forum that estimate was a lowball of what actually constituted the biggest tax increase in U.S. history, something White House economist Jason Furman later admitted when he revealed the real revenue would likely be triple the official estimate. So the first thing I checked in this year’s budget was how much revenue was expected from the cap-and-trade energy tax, to which the president reiterated his commitment in his State of the Union address last week. The surprising answer is the budget actually has, literally, a blank line for the cap-and-trade tax. A black box. A slush fund. A secret budget-within-the-budget. Talk about a lack of transparency.
Posted by Albert J on Thu 4 Feb 2010 at 04:17 AM
10's of thousands of dissenting scientists have signed the Petition Project now which states: " There is no convincing scientific evidence that human release of carbon dioxide, methane, or other greenhouse gases is causing or will, in the foreseeable future, cause catastrophic heating of the Earth's atmosphere and disruption of the Earth's climate. Moreover, there is substantial scientific evidence that increases in atmospheric carbon dioxide produce many beneficial effects upon the natural plant and animal environments of the Earth."
Posted by Albert J on Thu 4 Feb 2010 at 08:58 AM
Can you say, "Agenda Driven' science?
Among the original e-mails hacked from East Anglia and posted online was, "The fact is that we can't account for the lack of warming at the moment and it is a travesty that we can't. The CERES data published in the August (Bulletin of the American Meteorological Society) 09 supplement on 2008 shows there should be even more warming: but the data are surely wrong. Our observing system is inadequate."
Posted by Albert J on Thu 4 Feb 2010 at 09:04 AM
Chris W wrote, "He would have to be doing at least 10 broadcasts a day, everyday for more than 50 years," I don't know about 50 years worth but, if you count each camera appearance, my local guys can rack up a half dozen appearances in a newscast, counting teasers, forecast, and reminders. ;-)
Posted by Tom Hubbard on Sat 6 Feb 2010 at 10:16 PM
*ahem* There are certainly more classes of scientists in the world than climatologists and meteorologists!! Astrophysicists have recently been weighing in, and emphasizing the potential role of solar variability in the heating and cooling cycles of the planet.
Past cooling appears to coincide with solar minimums, but the climatology community appears to discount this physical phenomena nearly completely. Advanced research into cloud production from greater cosmic radiation during a minimum is ongoing at CERN in Europe ("CLOUD" project), looking to shed light on this.
Please watch this excellent speech given at CERN:
http://cdsweb.cern.ch/record/1181073/
Posted by CRS, Dr.P.H., University of Illinois on Sun 7 Feb 2010 at 02:31 AM
Having [for the time being until technology caught up with his ideational experiment] lost the famous 'Box of Light" debate with Nils Bohr at the 1930 Solvay Conference, Albert Einstein declared to his diner guests including George Bernard Shaw (who was Master of Ceremonies for the night), "...the existence and destiny of our people depends less on external forces than on us remaining faithful to the moral traditions which have enabled us to survive thousands of years despite the fierce storms that have broken over our heads." Then Einstein went on to heap praise on those 'of noble spirit and with a strong sense of justice' who had devoted their lives to uplifting human society and liberating the individual from degrading oppression.
Now physics is not sure where they are. GPS has so far proven Einstein was right and Bohr was wrong concerning the box of light experiment. But perhaps it is just an issue of where to draw the Macro/Micro line. Perhaps that line in the end is just imaginary anyway. And where does current GPS analysis leave General Relativity and the Uncertainty Twins; Energy and Time?
But, Einstein's words certainly apply to AGWing as much today, as they applied to the Socialist Fascism he directed them at in 1930. Isn’t it a bit ironic the Socialist Fascists of today claim to be on the correct side of science, just as they did in the 1930’s? Notice how Eugenics, very much in vogue in the 1930's, has crept back into the debate at Copenhagen?
Posted by Albert J on Sun 7 Feb 2010 at 03:59 AM
We can assume everyone has seen pics of the West Wing of the White House buried in snow today.
And of course computer models just 15 months ago 'accurately' predicted all this snow in Washington DC, yes? or did they now?
RFK, Jr. 15 months ago: Global warming means no snow or cold in DC
Robert F. Kennedy Jr., who flies around on private planes so as to tell larger numbers of people how they must live their lives in order to save the planet, wrote a column last year on the lack of winter weather in Washington, D.C.
In Virginia, the weather also has changed dramatically. Recently arrived residents in the northern suburbs, accustomed to today's anemic winters, might find it astonishing to learn that there were once ski runs on Ballantrae Hill in McLean, with a rope tow and local ski club. Snow is so scarce today that most Virginia children probably don't own a sled. But neighbors came to our home at Hickory Hill nearly every winter weekend to ride saucers and Flexible Flyers.
And you AGWers want the world to believe you can predict what the climate will be in 50 or 100 years from now?
Posted by Albert J on Sun 7 Feb 2010 at 11:40 AM
Reality Bites! The so called 'consensus' is draining away, even in the UK, AGWer central.
perhaps it's due to all the great scientific arguments by Secular Saints like Axel, Black Elvis, Milli-gra, John Smith and BioLuminescence-Headlines from today;
How our belief in climate change is draining away as number of doubters rises by 10% in three months. A growing number of Britons are sceptical about global warming, a poll has revealed.
The great global warming collapse, As the science scandals keep coming, the [hot] air has gone out of the climate-change movement.
Posted by Albert J on Mon 8 Feb 2010 at 03:18 AM
Don't forget to check out the funny 'Green Shirt' satires in the Audi Super Bowl commercials on YouTube.
Audi 2010 Green Car Super Bowl Commercials
Posted by Albert J on Mon 8 Feb 2010 at 04:59 AM
I'm melting,,,,melting....melting..........
Wicked Witch from Oz
Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain, move along, nothing to see here, move along.
The Wizard of Oz
A LEADING British government scientist has warned the United Nations’ climate panel to tackle its blunders or lose all credibility.
Robert Watson, chief scientist at Defra, the environment ministry, who chaired the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) from 1997 to 2002, was speaking after more potential inaccuracies emerged in the IPCC’s 2007 benchmark report on global warming.
The most important is a claim that global warming could cut rain-fed north African crop production by up to 50% by 2020, a remarkably short time for such a dramatic change. The claim has been quoted in speeches by Rajendra Pachauri, the IPCC chairman, and by Ban Ki-moon, the UN secretary-general.
This weekend Professor Chris Field, the new lead author of the IPCC’s climate impacts team, told The Sunday Times that he could find nothing in the report to support the claim. The revelation follows the IPCC’s retraction of a claim that the Himalayan glaciers might all melt by 2035.
Posted by Albert J on Mon 8 Feb 2010 at 05:13 AM
Live by Tree Rings, Die by Tree Rings;
Winston Wheeler, a researcher at the University of Arizona, collects wood samples from a dead tree that is partially submerged in Lake Bosumtwi, Ghana. Lake mud and the ancient trees provided evidence of at least six “megadroughts” in West Africa in the last 3,000 years.
Wow, and not an SUV in site in Africa 3000 years ago. Hmmm? Ahh, yes, I need to modify this per the AGWers new pivot, sorry. Not an SUV in Africa 3000 years ago THAT WE KNOW ABOUT! Maybe one exists and we just haven't uncovered the missing 'link' yet. We need to err on the side of caution just in case! For the greater good! For the Children! Need not Greed! For each according to his ability and to each according to his need!
Posted by Albert J on Mon 8 Feb 2010 at 05:27 AM
All 'Gates' lead to the IPCC.
First there was Climate Gate, showing that the peer review process has descended into a criminal farce of scientific malpractice where adjusting and hiding data was de-rigueur. Hello Fraud. ClimateGate also spread to the US, where 75% of worldwide data is systematically ignored or “adjusted” until it tells the right story.
Then there was PachauriGate, showing that the man in charge of the IPCC was chairman of boards of companies that profit handsomely as the scare-factor is ramped up.
Along comes GlacierGate: about the IPCC “accidentally” using a WWF report instead of peer reviewed science papers. After calling a 60 page Indian Govt report on glaciers “voodoo science” they were forced to apologize for that “one paragraph that was wrong”. Then Donna LeFramboise in just one day of hunting, found 16 other references in the IPCC 4th report to the “scientific journal” called “WWF”. Proving that really, the big safety-mechanism of the IPCC reputation was not in its exhaustive reviews but was in the way it made its documents so big, so dull and so unreadable, that hardly anyone actually … reads them. Call it the thousand-page-cloak-of-invisibility.
Camouflage for poor science, poor standards, bad logic, and too many vested interests to name.
Now there is AmazonGate. The IPCC fabricates disastrous claims about the Amazon forest, and references a document written by activists that doesn’t even support the claim.
Will 40% of the Amazonian forests react drastically to even a slight change in rainfall? Is there a tipping point for the Amazon? The reference turns out to be an Australian forest specialist, who works for not just the WWF, but also for the World Conservation Union, and who according to his CV mostly works in Australia and Asia, and not the Amazon. His co-author is a journalist who’s worked on Greenpeace campaigns and for the WWF. Then, to top it off, the assertions that the IPCC attributes to them can’t even be found in the report that they wrote.
All Gates lead to humiliation and embarrassment for the followers of the great cult of the carbonistas.
And we haven’t yet got even close to the scandal of the faulty assumptions that led to the faulty models and alarmist predictions in the first place, or the even bigger scandal of how the observational evidence that proves the assumptions false is and was ignored by the IPCC.
Posted by Albert J on Mon 8 Feb 2010 at 06:15 AM
Since this rift started as a dis' of meteorologists because they refused to keep repeating "The Big Lie', let's take a look at what Climatologists do with their grant money. Species-Gate (Wow, there is really a 'Climate Change' Chair!, next we will have a 'Revolving Earth' Chair!)...SpeciesGate.
Climatologist Extraordinaire: Prof. Barry Brook, who is he? It appears he holds the Sir Hubert Wilkins 'Chair of Climate Change' and notes his works as “My research focuses on global environmental change: human impacts on natural systems, in all its manifold forms”, he lists;
* Director of Climate Science, Environment Institute
* Climate and Energy blog/website: BraveNewClimate
He leads a research staff of 7 and they supervise 8 PhD students who are currently researching the following:
- Demography and control of disease-carrying tropical mosquitoes in northern Australia.
- Factors controlling population size and extinction risk.
- Population dynamics of small mammals in Kakadu National Park.
- Does the inclusion of fine scale information to coarse parameter models improve population viability forecasts for small coastal and arid mammals?
- Conservation status of Corucia zebrata in the Solomon Islands. (a skink)
- The interactive effects of habitat degradation and climate change on Southeast Asian and Australian birds.
- Impact of climate change and habitat fragmentation on the herpetofauna of Southeast Asia.
-Demographic impacts of future sea-level rise on Adelaide: a case study for Australian populations.
These all appear to be valid research if one is to take the word of Professor Norman Meyers who has stated:
If we do not do more, Myers says, the planet will continue to lose around 50 species per day compared to the natural extinction rate of one species every five years. He projected this rate in the late 1980s to much criticism, but the figure is now widely accepted by scientists. “The whole thing is taking place in what you might call a flickering of an evolutionary eye,” said Myers. “It’s hard to keep up with unless we damp down on some of the causes of the evolution.”
Which means we must have lost approx 365,000 species since 1990, mind you, it’s hard to actually ascertain how many species there are because it appears no one actually knows.
Further investigation shows that here in Australia we have lost the following species recently:
Birds – last mainland bird extinction was 1920s – the Robust White eye.
Amphibians – possibly 4 haven’t been recorded in the last 30 years.
Reptiles – 3 mainland, 1 Norfolk Island
Mammals – the last recorded extinction was the pig footed bandicoot in the 50s
Invertebrates – 6 possibly – the last in 1996.
It is also interesting to note that main donations of funds for Professor Myers work is the World Wildlife Fund, the Royal Society, NASA. Say no more! Check him out in Wikipedia along with the list of exint species in Australia. It appears the AWGers need to scrub more than just the Medieval Warming Period from Wikipedia!
Posted by Albert J on Mon 8 Feb 2010 at 07:25 AM
Below is why the current US Congress is trying to block Natural Gas exploration via legislation against fracturing, necessary to extract gas from shale and coal beds. So they can make Wind and Solar more competitive-and enrich their buddies, not so they can save the world. ‘Crony Capitalism’ and ‘Monopoly Science’.
Pulitzer-prize winning energy author Daniel Yergin noted in the Wall Street Journal recently that the natural gas revolution has surged from 1990, when natural gas was about 10 percent of total U.S. energy production, to today, when natural gas is around 40 percent, and growing fast, with shale gas largely responsible.
"Proven U.S. natural gas reserves have risen to 245 trillion cubic feet (Tcf) in 2008 from 177 Tcf in 2000, despite having produced nearly 165 Tcf during these years," Yergin and his co-author Robert Ineson wrote. "In the lower 48 states, thought to be in decline as a natural gas source, production surged an astonishing 15 percent from the beginning of 2007 to mid-2008. This increase is more than most other countries produce combined."
Peter Huber of the Manhattan Institute has written an important analysis in which he argues that natural gas is a "carbon strategy that we can afford."
Huber argued that oil's share of the U.S. energy market peaked just shy of 50 percent in 1977; today oil's share of the U.S. energy market is under 40 percent.
"Gas and coal grabbed half of what oil lost," Huber wrote. "Uranium took the rest. Oil now depends on transportation for over 70 percent of U.S. demand."
Posted by Albert J on Tue 9 Feb 2010 at 02:50 AM
Vote now, who will win the Media battle over the Winter Olympics, AGWers or Skeptics?
AGWers will claim no snow because of AGWing. Skeptics will point out weather does nor equal climate, nor is there any evidence that man made CO2 stopped Vancouver Snow, and dumped all on the East Coast instead.
Skeptics will point out the Carbon Foot print of making and then trucking in all the 'man made' snow. AGWers will say it's for the greater good, each according to his ability, each rewarded according to his need. It was for the greater need, the greater good, the Children of the world needed the Olympics to go on. We have to do something, right? Besides, look at all the cool gadgets we will get.Like 'green' cars that can't brake.
Get ahead of the curve, vote now for the winner, and vote often! AGWers vote really often, with the help of ACORN!
Posted by Albert J on Tue 9 Feb 2010 at 04:38 AM
WASHINGTON (AP) - The Obama administration on Monday proposed a new agency to study and report on the 'changing climate'.
As soon as this is approved, they plan to set up an agency to watch the Earth Revolve also.
Following on will be setting up stadiums around the nation so people can observe the sun rising, and then setting again.
Posted by Albert J on Tue 9 Feb 2010 at 01:16 PM
Meet your New American "Green Shirts" at the 'Apollo Alliance', a radical and terrorist clearing house:
The Apollo Alliance, whose board members include a slew of radicals, was instrumental in helping draft a "clean technology" bill being pushed by U.S. senators.
The Investments for Manufacturing Progress and Clean Technology Act of 2009, or IMPACT, was sponsored by Sen. Sherrod Brown, D-Ohio, and is also being promoted by Sen. Debbie Stabenow, D-Mich. The act seeks to establish a $30 billion revolving loan fund to help small and mid-sized manufacturers retool their factories to produce "clean technologies" and become more energy efficient.
The Apollo Alliance claims it was founded in the aftermath of the 9/11 attacks "to catalyze a clean energy revolution in America."
Among its board members are a grouping of radicals, including:
* Van Jones, President Obama's controversial former "green jobs czar" who resigned in September after it was exposed he founded a communist revolutionary organization and signed a statement that accused the Bush administration of possible involvement in the 9/11 attacks. Jones also called for "resistance" against the U.S.
Green For All, a group co-founded by Jones, is a formal backer of Brown's IMPACT Act.
Jones himself decried the Apollo Alliance mission as "sort of a grand unified field theory for progressive left causes."
* Joel Rogers, a founder of the socialist New Party. President Obama was a New Party member. In an interview, New Party co-founder and Marxist activist Carl Davidson previously recounted Obama's participation with the New Party.
* Jeff Jones, a founder of the Weather Underground domestic terrorist group who spent time on the run from law enforcement agencies while his group carried out a series of bombings of U.S. government buildings.
Jones joined the Students for a Democratic Society, or SDS, from which the Weathermen splintered in the fall of 1965. Two years later, he became the SDS' New York City regional director, a position in which he participated in nearly all of the group's major protests until 1969, including the 1968 Columbia University protests and the violent riots that same year at the Democratic National Convention.
In 1969, Jones founded the Weathermen with terrorists William Ayers and Mark Rudd when the three signed an infamous statement calling for a revolution against the American government inside and outside the country to fight and defeat what the group called U.S. imperialism. President Obama came under fire for his longtime, extensive association with Ayers.
Jones was a main leader and orchestrator of what became known as the Days of Rage, a series of violent riots in Chicago organized by the Weathermen. The culmination of the riots came when he gave a signal for rowdy protestors to target a hotel that was the home of a local judge presiding over a trial of anti-war activists.
Jones went underground after he failed to appear for a March 1970 court date to face charges of "crossing state lines to foment a riot and conspiring to do so." He moved to San Francisco with Ayers' wife, Bernardine Dohrn. That year, at least one bombing claimed by the Weathermen went off in Jones' locale at the Presidio Army base.
Jones' Weathermen took credit for multiple bombings of U.S. government buildings, including attacks against the U.S. Capitol March 1, 1971; the Pentagon May 19, 1972, and a 1975 bombing of the State Department building.
Now, let's go save the world!
Posted by Albert J on Wed 10 Feb 2010 at 05:18 AM
Daughter blames mother for global warming
By Dr. Paul Donohue, SPECIAL TO THE POST-DISPATCH, 01/27/2010
Dear Dr. Donohue — My daughter complains that I flatulate more often than most individuals. Furthermore, she claims that the gas an individual passes contributes to global warming. I don't know if I am physically able to keep my gas to myself to go green. Is my daughter really right?
Is your daughter for real? No human can stop the production of intestinal gas. Every human passes gas, including your daughter. People do so from 10 to 20 times a day.
Posted by Albert J on Wed 10 Feb 2010 at 12:13 PM
The global-warming thrill ride looks to be coming to an end, undone by the same politically motivated serial exaggeration and moral preening that discredited previous apocalypses. On the heels of the East Anglia University “Climategate” scandal have come a series of embarrassing retractions from the U.N.’s Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) regarding some of the most loudly trumpeted signs and wonders of global warming, such as the ludicrous claim that Himalayan glaciers would disappear within 30 years, that nearly half of the Amazon jungle was at imminent risk of destruction from a warming planet, and that there was a clear linkage between climate change and weather-related economic losses. The sources for these claims turned out to be environmental advocacy groups — not rigorous, peer-reviewed science.
To be sure, these revelations do not in and of themselves mean that the idea of anthropogenic global warming is false. But this is probably the beginning of a wholesale revision of the conventional wisdom on climate change. One of the central issues of Climategate — the veracity and integrity of the surface-temperature records used for our estimates of warming over the last few decades — is far from resolved. The next frontier is likely to be a fresh debate about basic climate sensitivity itself. There have been several recent peer-reviewed papers suggesting much lower climate sensitivity to greenhouse gases than the IPCC “consensus” computer models predict. And alternative explanations for observed climate change in the Arctic and elsewhere, such as shifts in ocean currents and wind patterns, should receive a second look.
Dissenters who pointed out these and other flaws in the IPCC consensus were demonized as deniers and ignored by the media, but they are now vindicated. (The American media are still averting their gaze, though the British press — even the left-wing Guardian and the Independent — is turning on the climate campaigners with deserved vengeance.) The IPCC is mumbling about non-specific reforms and changes in the process shaping its next massive climate report, due out in three or four years. The IPCC should emulate a typical feature of American government commissions and include a minority report from dissenters or scientists with a different emphasis. But the next IPCC report may not matter much: With the collapse of the Kyoto-Copenhagen process and the likely rejection of cap-and-trade in Congress, climate mania may have run its course.
Posted by Albert J on Wed 10 Feb 2010 at 01:31 PM
WASHINGTON, DC - Sen. James Inhofe (R-Okla.), Ranking Member of the Committee on Environment and Public Works, responded to Penn State's announcement today concerning its investigation into possible research misconduct by Dr. Michael Mann.
Penn State's internal inquiry found further investigation is warranted to determine if Dr. Mann "engaged in, directly or indirectly, any actions that seriously deviated from accepted practices within the academic community for proposing, conducting or reporting research or other scholarly activities."
"I want to commend Penn State for recognizing the seriousness of the allegations leveled at Dr. Mann by launching an initial inquiry into whether he committed research misconduct," Senator Inhofe said. "As the University moves to the next phase of its investigation, I believe the Inspector General of the National Science Foundation should also commence an investigation to examine possible violations of federal laws and policies governing taxpayer-funded research.
"The stakes involved here are enormous. The scientific work in question is part of a larger enterprise behind federal climate change policies that will cost American consumers trillions of dollars. So when we learn, as we did last week, that the IPCC's Fourth Assessment Report included serious errors, raising questions about the integrity of its work, we need to reassure the American people that their tax dollars are supporting objective scientific research rather than political agendas."
Posted by Albert J on Wed 10 Feb 2010 at 02:46 PM
Sen. Inhofe’s Family Builds Igloo for Global Warming Spokesman Al Gore in Snow-laden D.C.
Tuesday, February 09, 2010
They added signs to the snow dwelling that read, “AL GORE’S NEW HOME!” and “HONK IF YOU (LOVE) GLOBAL WARMING.”
Beeep Beeep!
Posted by Albert J on Thu 11 Feb 2010 at 11:36 AM
It isn’t the snow outside that has discredited global warming. It’s the chill the warmists alarmists have imposed on scientific inquiry. They are acting as enforcers of orthodoxy, not seekers of truth.
Scientists who disputed the manmade-global-warming hypothesis were not surprised by what the East Anglia e-mails revealed. It’s an open secret that academic institutions have been inhospitable to heretics on this question for some time. Richard Lindzen, professor of atmospheric sciences at Harvard, told Commentary, “These are not ambiguous. They’re talking about suppressing other scientists. But there’s no surprise. Those of us who are in the field have seen this. The only surprise is that someone actually got hold and sorted these documents.”
Not only did scientists twist the peer-review process, manipulate data, and attempt to suppress dissent, they also destroyed records — is this the scientific method for which liberals are going to the barricades?
The entire superstructure of climate alarmism rests on data that are doubtful and possibly fraudulent. The Science and Public Policy Institute has evaluated surface-temperature records and found, among other things, that 1) instrumental data from the pre-satellite era are virtually useless; 2) fewer than 25 percent of the 6,000 temperature stations that once existed are still operative; 3) comprehensive ocean data have been available only since 2003 and have shown no warming; and 4) higher altitude, higher latitude, and rural stations were the most likely to be lost, leading to a further serious overstatement of warming.
As John Hinderaker of the Power Line blog has reported, the U.N. IPCC report itself does not even accurately represent the views of the scientists who signed it. Key sections expressing caveats and acknowledging countervailing evidence were altered after the purported authors had put their names to it.
Posted by Albert J on Fri 12 Feb 2010 at 09:05 AM
New Paper in Science: Sea level 81,000 years ago was 1 meter higher while CO2 was lower:
Pending confirmation of the study's findings, it might be time to rehearse the walk-back on sea-level rise: Fine. So maybe there isn't a direct connection between rising CO2 concentrations and civilization-destroying sea-level rise. But no climate progressives have ever argued that there was. It's ocean acidification that has always been our principal concern — our only one, really, when you rethink about it.
Expect a peer-reviewed report on ocean acidification as the number-one threat to the Maldives to go into production immediately.
Posted by Albert J on Fri 12 Feb 2010 at 09:38 AM
Forecasters said currently there is snow on the ground in some part of every state except Florida, which is expected to get a couple of inches in the panhandle on Friday.
Let's hear it for snow in all 50 states at the same time! Whooo Hoooo!
Posted by Albert J on Fri 12 Feb 2010 at 12:08 PM
NYTs and Time may be repeating the Big Lie (AGWing caused these blizzards), but science does not agree. Professor of Climatology at Winnipeg University, Dr. Tim Ball explains, the Northern Polar Cold air cap is pushing father south now, similar to during the 1770's during the American Revolution (Valley Forge, etc.). This is due to the global cooling we have been experiencing (in spite of increased CO2 outputs) for about a decade now. The reason Vancouver is minus snow now is because of the waves in the jet streamer, discovered by Rossby and the B-52 bombers in WW II. Rossby waves in the atmosphere are easy to observe as (usually 4-6) large-scale meanders of the jet stream. When these loops become very pronounced, they detach the masses of cold, or warm, air that become cyclones and anticyclones and are responsible for day-to-day weather patterns at mid-latitudes. If you look them up in Wikipedia you will see why the East is blanketed in snow, while Vancouver is not.
Posted by Albert J on Fri 12 Feb 2010 at 12:51 PM
Is that the sound of the "Pension Bubble" bursting now?
[W]hy are the media so invested in the warming notion, given the countervailing evidence, the fact that the last climate theory (the global cooling scare of the 1970s) was so quickly disproven, and that it is self-evident that CO2, that most persecuted of molecules, is essential for life[?]
Well, the BBC, a prime proponents of warming theory, or AGW, has heavily invested its pension fund in the theory, and thus have had a major non-scientific reason for their bias. As revealed this weekend in The Express:
"The corporation is under investigation after being inundated with complaints that its editorial coverage of climate change is biased in favour of those who say it is a man-made phenomenon. The £8billion pension fund is likely to come under close scrutiny over its commitment to promote a low-carbon economy while struggling to reverse an estimated £2billion deficit. Concerns are growing that BBC journalists and their bosses regard disputed scientific theory that climate change is caused by mankind as 'mainstream' while huge sums of employees’ money is invested in companies whose success depends on the theory being widely accepted. The BBC is the only media organisation in Britain whose pension fund is a member of the Institutional Investors Group on Climate Change, which has more than 50 members across Europe."
The IIGCC is an interesting group. As their website explains:
"The IIGCC is a forum for collaboration on climate change for European investors. The group’s objective is to catalyse greater investment in a low carbon economy by bringing investors together to use their collective influence with companies, policymakers and investors. The group currently has over 50 members, including some of the largest pension funds and asset managers in Europe, and represents assets of around €4 trillion."
Wait. . . . I hate to be a skeptic, but did they just say . . . “Four Trillion Euros”?
They did. The Chairman of IIGCC investment group is Peter Dunscombe, who also happens to be the BBC’s Head of Pensions Investment.
Posted by Albert J on Sat 13 Feb 2010 at 05:10 AM
The strategy pursued by activists (including scientists who have crossed the line into advocacy) has turned out to be fatally flawed.
By exaggerating the certainties, papering over the gaps, demonizing the skeptics and peddling tales of imminent catastrophe, they've discredited the entire climate-change movement. The political damage will be severe. As Mr. Mead succinctly puts it: “Skeptics up, Obama down, cap-and-trade dead.” That also goes for Canada, whose climate policies are inevitably tied to those of the United States.
“I don't think it's healthy to dismiss proper skepticism,” says John Beddington, the chief scientific adviser to the British government. He is a staunch believer in man-made climate change, but he also points out the complexity of climate science. “Science grows and improves in the light of criticism. There is a fundamental uncertainty about climate change prediction that can't be changed.” In his view, it's time to stop circling the wagons and throw open the doors. How much the public will keep caring is another matter.
Posted by Albert J on Sat 13 Feb 2010 at 07:48 AM
Industrialization and SUVs 81,000 years ago? Let's see you AGWers defend this one;
A team of scientists around the geochemist Jeffrey Dorale, from the University of Iowa, claims the Mediterranean some 81,000 years ago stood a full meter higher than it does today.
The results were published in the journal Science on Friday. Dorale and his team won't speculate why sea levels were so high back then -- or why, in fact, they seemed to surge all of a sudden -- but they believe their findings have "major implications for future concerns with sea-level change," according to the Science Web site.
Mallorca is a good place to study these changes because the island barely moves, the scientists say. It's tectonically stable, and the buildup or melting of glaciers hasn't raised or lowered the island. The stalagtites and stalagmites, moreover, have have collected deposits of calcite from the ocean, and these deposits give up secrets like rings in a tree. Dorale's team dated the deposits by measuring the radioactive decay of uranium traces. "We've reconstructed sea levels with a high degree of precision," Dorale told SPIEGEL ONLINE.
Dorale and his co-author, Bogdan Onac at the University of South Florida, realize their work may be controversial. If the scientists are right, and the sea was really one meter higher 81,000 years ago than it is today, a number of questions present themselves. In those days the atmosphere would not have contained so much carbon dioxide. So how important is CO2 in global warming?
Posted by Albert J on Sun 14 Feb 2010 at 07:33 AM
They have turned on you Warmer Alarmists, what will you do with out your Allies in the media to get the 'Big Lie' out there repeatedly, hey? from the UK Times, Alarmist Central London;
In its last assessment the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) said the evidence that the world was warming was “unequivocal”.
It warned that greenhouse gases had already heated the world by 0.7C and that there could be 5C-6C more warming by 2100, with devastating impacts on humanity and wildlife. However, new research, including work by British scientists, is casting doubt on such claims. Some even suggest the world may not be warming much at all.
“The temperature records cannot be relied on as indicators of global change,” said John Christy, professor of atmospheric science at the University of Alabama in Huntsville, a former lead author on the IPCC.
The doubts of Christy and a number of other researchers focus on the thousands of weather stations around the world, which have been used to collect temperature data over the past 150 years.
These stations, they believe, have been seriously compromised by factors such as urbanisation, changes in land use and, in many cases, being moved from site to site.
Christy has published research papers looking at these effects in three different regions: east Africa, and the American states of California and Alabama.
“The story is the same for each one,” he said. “The popular data sets show a lot of warming but the apparent temperature rise was actually caused by local factors affecting the weather stations, such as land development.”
The IPCC faces similar criticisms from Ross McKitrick, professor of economics at the University of Guelph, Canada, who was invited by the panel to review its last report.
Science baby, science!
Posted by Albert J on Sun 14 Feb 2010 at 09:31 AM
Ahh, You Secular Saints must be up in arms, your heros are all busted for lying and distorting the truth for your agendas. The cause of warming is lost. Save those Iguanas from Global cooling! Wait until it comes up Life it's self can not magically just appear randomly. Man, that will really destroy your secular world!
Climategate U-turn as scientist at centre of row admits: There has been no global warming since 1995. Whooops!
Colleagues say that the reason Professor Phil Jones has refused Freedom of Information requests is that he may have actually lost the relevant papers.
Professor Jones told the BBC yesterday there was truth in the observations of colleagues that he lacked organisational skills, that his office was swamped with piles of paper and that his record keeping is ‘not as good as it should be’.
The data is crucial to the famous ‘hockey stick graph’ used by climate change advocates to support the theory.
Professor Jones also conceded the possibility that the world was warmer in medieval times than now – suggesting global warming may not be a man-made phenomenon.
And he said that for the past 15 years there has been no ‘statistically significant’ warming.
Posted by Albert J on Mon 15 Feb 2010 at 02:56 AM
Facts are stubborn things- John Adams
http://data.giss.nasa.gov/gistemp/graphs/Fig.A2.lrg.gif
Temperatures rise and bullshit flies. Fly monkeys fly!
Posted by Mark A. York on Wed 17 Feb 2010 at 11:02 PM
Be all that you can be. Be a consultant to ADVOCACY GROUPS!
The United Nations climate chief Yvo de Boer has resigned to join a consultancy group as an adviser, the UN climate secretariat said today, two months after a disappointing Copenhagen summit.
Posted by Albert J on Thu 18 Feb 2010 at 10:04 AM
@albert J
Nice of you to post some of his comments, but I noticed you didn't post a link. Luckily, I have a link
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/85116...
...and here are some more of his comments since you conveniently left them out.
E - How confident are you that warming has taken place and that humans are mainly responsible?
I'm 100% confident that the climate has warmed. As to the second question, I would go along with IPCC Chapter 9 - there's evidence that most of the warming since the 1950s is due to human activity.
H - If you agree that there were similar periods of warming since 1850 to the current period, and that the MWP is under debate, what factors convince you that recent warming has been largely man-made?
The fact that we can't explain the warming from the 1950s by solar and volcanic forcing - see my answer to your question D.
I - Would it be reasonable looking at the same scientific evidence to take the view that recent warming is not predominantly manmade?
Posted by srichey on Thu 18 Feb 2010 at 06:09 PM
The typical argument besides all the CO2 pivots, now that it's well known and established that there really is no peer-2-peer reviewed data that supports the 'humans are definitely guilty' AGWer theory, is the 'attack the messenger' strategy. This piece above is a great example of attacking meteorologists for them daring to point out how inaccurate all the climate and meteorological computer models are. Now we get the 'they are NOT scientists, so what do they know' attacks. Well, who are the attackers making these attacks? Turns out they are media advisers, not scientists themselves, LOL. Like Kevin Grandia at the HuffPo.
So who is Grandia to speak so authoritatively about science?
Kevin has nine years of experience in communications with the last three spent entirely in the area of new media. Kevin is also the Director of New Media at Hoggan & Associates and is well-known for his expertise in the areas of social media marketing, online communications, blogging, search engine optimization . . .
Prior to DeSmogBlog, Kevin served as a communications advisor in the areas of health care, Canadian heritage and Asia-Pacific trade. Kevin’s areas of expertise also include government relations, crisis communications, event planning and media relations.
But it's okay. Kevin has been trained by Al Gore. That's a true BS degree in anyone's book.
Posted by Albert J on Sat 20 Feb 2010 at 09:01 AM
Srichey, we are still waiting for you AGWers to post some peer-2-peer reviewed data that shows absolutely if we don't carbon-tax people for Trillions of $$$ for putting plant food into the atmosphere, that we will have catastrophic events globally. Prove it. It's your theory! It is not for Skeptics to disprove your theory, this is science dude. You AGWers need to prove your theory. We have poked enough holes in it to make your theory Swiss cheese, now prove it. No more 'he thinks, or this what might happen maybe ifs. Prove it beyond the shadow of a doubt please. With real science, not hersay or corrupted data bases and skewed cherry picked statistics.
Remember, what you AGWers must prove is that 'man made CO2 emissions are causing greater than normal warming that will be catastrophic', not all your pivot tangents. We are waiting. No one disputes that on average and on trend the global temperatures are rising. So what? They have done so for millions of years and declined also. The climate changes, the sun rises and sets, So?
PS, if AGWing was true, why is there;
* a warmer period than now with less CO2 during the MWP?
* No hot spot for GHGs over the equator?
* no real delineation between normal an industrial CO2 emissions, so how can you even begin to make the claim, since the 'Hot Spot' evidence is missing above?
* during a spurt of Industrial growth after the end of WWII * historically, CO2 vs. temperature lags by hundred's of years, what's up with that? If there was a direct correlation between man made CO2 wouldn't we be seeing an increase in the last 12 years and after II? Hmmm?
And so on and so forth. We showed you ours, now show us your great peer-2-peer reviewed data that proves 'humans are guilty' and too much plant food will burn us all up please.
Mark A York, waiting for your proof humans are guilty of putting too much plant food into the air from you also. This URL you gave conveniently both "hides the decline" with the infamous now discreditied hocky stick, and it leaves out the Medieval Warming Period silly. Give us something besides Dr. Hansen's corrupted GISS data, dis-proven by a teen aged Canadian girl years ago. And in any event, where is the proof humans are guilty or that CO2 even caused this, huh? This graph doesn't prove AGWing, silly. Look at the graphs that go back millions of years, you will see much higher temperatures and CO2 concentrations than today, which is way before you were ever driving an SUV and using your carbon-petroleum based Computers to perpetuate Hoaxes on the internet, driven by carbon based energy and built with carbon based products. PS, you killed your AGWer theory with that NASA GISS graph by the way. See the Decline that wasn't hidden after WWII? Hmmm, more CO2 in huge amounts after WWi ended, and temperatures decline, Hmmmm? What's up with that if AGWing is a proven theory? This could not happen this way if human produced CO2 is casing run away warming as you AGWers claim is true.
Perhaps you both are not scientists, but media specialists? PR experts? Get your facts straight and come back any time. Truth is always welcome here. But leave your agendas at home please. This is science, not feelings.
Posted by Albert J on Sat 20 Feb 2010 at 09:54 AM
PS, Srichey, Mark York and all you AGWers, I'll give credit where credit is due.
You certainly have a great deal of "Faith" in your religious affirmation that humans are guilty, no matter what the facts are, I will hand you all that. You never seem to give up in spite of the overwhelming evidence now that human CO2 output has nothing or very little to do with climate at the moment.
So the question is, where is the tipping point at which you give up the ghost on your religious beliefs of 'faith based AGWing'? How many corrupt officials, grant money scams, corrupted data bases, lost data, cherry picked skewed graphs and statistics, hiding of inconvenient facts, companies with their pension funds invested in carbon trading, and declines in global temperatures in spite of increased CO2 output will it take before you admit this was all an agenda driven hoax, regardless of good intentions, etc.?
Posted by Albert J on Sat 20 Feb 2010 at 10:08 AM
None other than the venerable Dalai Lama ignoring the 'garbage' of AWGing now exiting from the back of the White House;
http://www.gettyimages.co.nz/detail/96834730/AFP
Posted by Albert J on Sat 20 Feb 2010 at 10:16 AM
Don't get me wrong – I'm not saying people should have free reign to trash the environment. I agree that too much of Western society is caught up with excessive consumerism. We chose a "green" lifestyle because we believe we should be good stewards of our resources (plus it's cheaper).
But I cannot and will not endorse such statements as "Human suffering is much less important than the suffering of the planet" (David Brower, former head of the Sierra Club and founder of Friends of the Earth) or "We humans have become a disease, the Humanpox" (Dave Foreman, founder of Earth First!, whose primary goal is cutting the world's population by 90 percent), or a statement uttered at one of Earth First!'s gatherings: "Optimal human population: zero."
Winston Churchill said, "A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject." It seems the human-haters, of which a large part of AGWers are, fit this definition.
Posted by Albert J on Sat 20 Feb 2010 at 11:00 AM
Have you noticed the Alarmist pivot right out of Michael Crichton's ' State of Fear' from AGWing over to'Climate Change'? Of course the climate is changing. Now prove humans emitting plant food in the atmosphere is making the climate change accelerate out of control past a catastrophic tipping point as Alarmists claim!
Not this drivelish non-scientific Media spin: "The evidence of and threats posed by a changing climate are right before our eyes," said Catherine Milbourn, EPA spokeswoman. "That science came from an array of highly respected, peer-reviewed sources from both within the United States and across the globe."
The Environmental Defense Fund is leading the defense of the EPA's findings, arguing that critics are deliberately ignoring science to set back efforts to tackle climate change. "The EPA's decision is based on a 200-page synthesis of major scientific assessments," said the Fund, denying the work was simply attributable to the IPCC.
Posted by Albert J on Sun 21 Feb 2010 at 12:31 PM
Eat your heart out Green Peace!
ARLINGTON - How would you like to buy gasoline made from $30 domestic coal versus $75 imported oil?
Researchers at the University of Texas at Arlington say they've found a practical way to make synthetic crude from inexpensive coal that's common in Texas.
People have been turning coal into oil for 100 years or more, but researchers at UTA say they've invented a better way to do it.
It is so much better that they expect to sign a deal with an oil company within weeks.
"This is East Texas lignite coal. We go from that to this really nice liquid," said Professor Brian Dennis of a light synthetic crude, easily refined into gasoline.
Professor Dennis and a team of scientists have been working on the process for about a year-and-a-half.
"I had the idea for this while I was walking to my car," he said. "I ran back to the lab and I started drawing it out in my notebook."
They only showed News 8 an early model reactor which doesn't look like much. The current reactor design is secret, extremely efficient, and emits no pollution, the UTA scientists said.
"We're improving the cost every day. We started off sometime ago at an uneconomical $17,000 a barrel. Today, we're at a cost of $28.84 a barrel," said engineering dean Rick Billo.
That's $28 a barrel versus $75 we pay now for imported crude.
Texas lignite coal is dirt cheap - less than $18 a ton. A ton of coal will produce up to 1.5 barrels of oil.
UTA researchers expect micro-refineries to be built within a year, turning coal into cheap oil and producing new jobs.
Posted by Albert J on Sun 21 Feb 2010 at 12:40 PM
Mojib Latif, a climate physicist at the Liebniz Institute of Marine Sciences at the University of Kiel in Germany and a lead author for the United Nations Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, or IPCC, produced evidence predicting two decades of natural global cooling caused by cyclical changes in the atmosphere and ocean currents in the North Atlantic, known as the North Atlantic Oscillation and the Atlantic Meridional Oscillation.
Speaking at the World Meteorological Organization's World Climate Conference 3 in Geneva, Switzerland, Latif produced slides that documented cooling temperatures that could be a 10 to 20 year phase into the future.
Three big corporations – oil multinational giants BP and ConocoPhillips, along with heavy-equipment maker Caterpillar Inc. – have declared that they will not renew their membership in the three-year-old U.S. Climate Action Partnership, the Wall Street Journal reported.
The move is important, given that the U.S. Climate Action Partnership was created to be a broad business-environmental coalition that had been working to support Washington-directed moves to cap emissions of greenhouse gases.
Posted by Albert J on Tue 23 Feb 2010 at 07:33 AM
Any of you AGWers care to explain how below statement from Prof. Jones can be possible and we experienced global cooling after the Industrial spurt at the end of WW II, and we have been cooling for last 10 years with another 10-20 years cooling predicted? How can humans be guilty if your CO2 theory is correct, but the globe cools during increased output by humans of CO2/ Hmmmm?
E - How confident are you that warming has taken place and that humans are mainly responsible?
I'm 100% confident that the climate has warmed. As to the second question, I would go along with IPCC Chapter 9 - there's evidence that most of the warming since the 1950s is due to human activity.
I'm confident he is protecting his grant money, and who cares what he thinks anyway. Where's the scientific proof to explain 'why' increased CO2 output from humans causes cooling after WW II and also now currently, not warming, and how that fits into AGWing?
Inquiring minds would like to know please? Thanks to Mark A. York for providing the link to the GISS graph with the now discredited Hockey Stick, which also shows the 'global cooling' after WWII with dramatically increased human CO2 outputs. Prof. Jones confirmed the hockey stick is now discredited when he categorically stated, " that for the past 15 years there has been no ‘statistically significant’ warming."
Facts are stubborn Things. 'John Adams & Mark A. York'
Posted by Albert J on Tue 23 Feb 2010 at 08:01 AM
Mathematical models are models, whether they are forecasting short term phenomenon or long term phenomenon. It doesn’t matter if you are modeling long term climate change, short term weather systems, .... The longer out into the future a time dependant model looks, the less accurate it is because errors from one iterations carryover to the next iterations, and there are always errors.
That's true if the problem is basically an initial value problem, such as weather forecasting, but climate modelling is basically a boundary-value problem. Climate models aren't trying to tell the difference between 15 July 2090 and 18 July 2099, they're trying to tell the difference between July in the 2090s and July in the 1990s.
Posted by Harold Brooks on Tue 23 Feb 2010 at 08:07 AM
Apparently this is Albert J's thread and padikiller has the others on climate change reportage around here. Tell me Albert do they assign cyber territories back at the wingnut hive? E-mailed assignments from Anthony Watts, the dropout weatherman? Sceptics' complaints are all interchangeable so it doesn't matter. It's all just thread pollution. Maybe we should tax them by the word?
What you will need is some other theory that actually explains the warming quantitatively without CO2 in play. You can't but it's fun to watch you folks twist in fallacious knots trying. Then it gets old fast.
Posted by Mark A. York on Tue 23 Feb 2010 at 03:09 PM
Perhaps Albert should do some splainin?
"Recorded temperature decreases in the 1950-70s as a result of man-made aerosol and sulfer emissions after WWII. Slowed due to air pollution laws that limited their emissions in the 80s and 90s, but also because of warming effect of CO2 (emitted at the same time) which takes longer to kick in.
Now that we have reduced SO2 emissions, but a lot more CO2 emissions, the global cooling is over-run by global warming."
All you have is easily debunked nonsense. Go away and get educated.
Posted by Mark A. York on Tue 23 Feb 2010 at 03:56 PM
That's true if the problem is basically an initial value problem, such as weather forecasting, but climate modelling is basically a boundary-value problem. Climate models aren't trying to tell the difference between 15 July 2090 and 18 July 2099, they're trying to tell the difference between July in the 2090s and July in the 1990s.
Harold, I would imagine that computing power is pretty much the same in either short term metrological models or climate models. If you are performing x number of calcs for a metrological model, wouldn’t it be safe to assume that you are also performing some number close to x for a climate model as well? Grid resolution and the number of iterations (I assume) would likely be pretty close for either since you would want to maximize available computations ability. An issue with boundary conditions for climate modeling is irrelevant because no one (not many) seriously questions the validity of most current climate data. Its all in the progressive iterations from node 1 to node 1,000,000.
If you cannot quantify and verify the uncertainty in your models calculations, what good is it?
Posted by Mike H on Tue 23 Feb 2010 at 04:13 PM
Mark A. York, where is your peer-2-peer reviewed conclusive evidence that man made CO2 is causing catastrophic CO2 runaway warming. As for where is the proof non man made natural causes like the Sun, sub sea volcanism, El Nino, clouds, and cosmic rays, that science is well established, and if you look at ice core data you will see clearly the warming and cooling trends, of which we are now in a natural warming trend falling the last min-ice age. No one is claiming long term we aren't in a warming trend, even though we have hit a spell of cooling from the last 9-10 years through the next 10-20 years, which even Prof Jones now admits to. What we skeptics are claiming is not whther the climte will change or not, or not that the globe on average is warming, which it is in a natural trend. What we are arguing is, there is absolutely no conclusive proof that man made CO2 is contributing to a run away warming that will lead to catastrophic events, as you AGWers claim. now prove it please!
This is science, not 'feelings'. It is incumbent on you AGWers to prove your theory, not on skeptics to disprove it, although we have on many occasions. You just refuse to acknowledge the facts. The hockey stick is bogus. There is a Mdeiveal Warming period warmer than today. There is no green house gas hot spot over the equater like there should be if your theory is correct. Teh Himalaya galciers are not disappearing in 30 years like you claimed. The sea levels are not raising due to warming at catastrophic rates like you claimed.
I can make up as many counter theories to your theories about why cooling after WWII and for the last 9-10 years and now, but where is the scientific proof humans are guilty of either? You need to prove it, it's your theory, defend it with facts not made up drivel and pseudo science, driven by a media with vested interested in Carbon trading and scare mongering for ad revenues.
ISN'T IT INTERESTING YOU JUST SOLVED GLOBAL WARMING MARK! SO NOTHING TO WORRY ABOUT, HUMANS ACCORDING TO MARK A. YORK CAN COOL AND WARM THE GLOBE AT WILL NOW.!!!!!! Whoo Hhoo, problem solved, we can all go home now. Whew, I was really worreied the world was coming to an end soon because I drive an SUV. Man, thank you Mark A. York! You just solved it all for us now.
Anyway, back to reality, where is you peer-2-peer data and proof? I don't need to disprove AGWing, you need to prove it.
How do you explain the MWP being hotter than now with less man made CO2?
Where is the GHG hot spot over the equator, which has to be there for your theory to be correct?
Where is the proof your theories about cooling after WWII is correct? Andyou theories don't add up anyway because if we humans caused cooling after WWII but reduced these causes in the last 10 years plus increased CO2 since then, how come we aren't warming now? You trap your self every time you make something up.
How about trying the truth, the facts. WHY ARE YOU AGWers IN SUCH A HURRY TO END THE WORLD? You should be happy we aren't burning up, yes? can you say, "Agenda Driven 'Scientific' Theories"?
Posted by Albert J on Wed 24 Feb 2010 at 05:45 AM
Before reading the comments below, you need to put history into perspective. This is relevant to the debate in climate, because many see the HOAX of AGWing as another Liberal Fascist attempt to take control of our lives via imposed carbon taxes and the Green Shirt police called for by UK Pm Gordon Brown. The President of the EU last year stated clearly that AGWing is the first important step to Global Governance, you can see him say it on YouTube. The history of Liberal Socialist Fascism is well documented the recent book 'Liberal Fascism'. So now that you have the proper context;
Vermont Senator Bernie Sanders is comparing climate change skeptics to those who disregarded the Nazi threat to America in the 1930s, adding a strident rhetorical shot to the already volatile debate over climate change.
"It reminds me in some ways of the debate taking place," said Sanders, perhaps the most liberal member of the Senate, during a Senate hearing Tuesday. "During that period of Nazism and fascism's growth-a real danger to the United States and democratic countries around the world- there were people in this country and in the British parliament who said 'don't worry! Hitler's not real! It'll disappear!"
The irony! It was Liberal Socialists who embraced Fascism with Mussolini and Hitler in the beginning, LOL. Just like it is AGWers who are on the wrong side of science and can't "Big Lie" their way out now the media have turned on them, LOL. The true deniers are calling the ones pointing our the real facts the 'deniers', very humorous. But it doesn't work without the media repeating the' Big Lie' of AGWing constantly for you, so sorry, your theory is now toast. Give up the ghost and move on the the next Liberal Socialist scam for mooching and looting. Carbon Trading is dead. MOVEon.org, LOL
Posted by Albert J on Wed 24 Feb 2010 at 05:59 AM
According to Water C. and JFK Jr., we can't build a wind farm near their yachting digs off the East Coast, it might look bad, so NIMBYism of course. But turtles? You Green Peace'rs must have hired Mark A. York as a media consultant, yes?
BrightSource Energy Inc. on Monday landed preliminary approval for a $1.37 billion loan guarantee from the federal government to help finance construction of a big solar energy complex in the Mojave Desert.
"This is a major milestone in getting this project built," said Keely Wachs, a spokesman for BrightSource Energy.
Oakland-based BrightSource has been seeking state and federal approval for the solar project that would rise in the desert in the Ivanpah Valley.
"The loan guarantee commitment," said John Woolard, BrightSource's CEO, "serves as a tremendous validation of our technology, the BrightSource team's ability to execute, and the Ivanpah project's role in meeting our nation's large-scale renewable energy needs.
The project, though, has been beset by environmental protests and demands the vast solar plant be relocated.
Some environmental groups fear that project — which would theoretically create "green" energy — could imperil 26 desert tortoises that have been found at the site, along with desert plants.
Posted by Albert J on Wed 24 Feb 2010 at 06:11 AM
Before you AGWers waste a bunch of time prying for really bad hurricanes, the latest pivot strategy for AGWing to scare people with since winter didn't work out too well for you;
Roger Pielke Jr. excerpts from a study on tropical cyclones (hurricanes and typhoons) recently published in Nature Geoscience. The bottom line? There has been no significant increase in cyclone activity beyond that which is attributable to natural variation.
In terms of global tropical cyclone frequency, it was concluded that there was no significant change in global tropical storm or hurricane numbers from 1970 to 2004, nor any significant change in hurricane numbers for any individual basin over that period, except for the Atlantic (discussed above). Landfall in various regions of East Asia during the past 60 years, and those in the Philippines during the past century, also do not show significant trends.
The data on the Atlantic does show an increase in activity, but is judged to be unreliable pre-1944, before the development of airborne observation and imaging of tropical storms.
The paper concludes:
. . . we cannot at this time conclusively identify anthropogenic signals in past tropical cyclone data.
Q. E. D.
Posted by Albert J on Wed 24 Feb 2010 at 06:15 AM
In addition to the voluminous evidence that continues to accumulate for the occurrence of higher-than-present temperatures during the Roman Warm Period of 2000 years ago and the Medieval Warm Period of 1000 years ago, a growing body of evidence is beginning to indicate there was a period of time some 500 years ago when temperatures were also warmer than they are currently.
http://www.co2science.org/subject/l/summaries/littlemwp.php
References:
Baedke, S.J. and Thompson, T.A. 2000. A 4700-year record of lake level and isostasy for Lake Michigan. Journal of Great Lakes Research 26: 416-426.
Barron, J.A. and Bukry, D. 2007. Solar forcing of Gulf of California climate during the past 2000 yr suggested by diatoms and silicoflagellates. Marine Micropaleontology 62: 115-139.
Bartholy, J., Pongracz, R. and Molnar, Z. 2004. Classification and analysis of past climate information based on historical documentary sources for the Carpathian Basin. International Journal of Climatology 24: 1759-1776.
Blundell, A. and Barber, K. 2005. A 2800-year palaeoclimatic record from Tore Hill Moss, Strathspey, Scotland: the need for a multi-proxy approach to peat-based climate reconstructions. Quaternary Science Reviews 24: 1261-1277.
Büntgen, U., Esper, J., Frank, D.C., Nicolussi, K. and Schmidhalter, M. 2005. A 1052-year tree-ring proxy for Alpine summer temperatures. Climate Dynamics 25: 141-153.
Carrara, P.E., Trimble, D.A. and Rubin, M. 1991. Holocene treeline fluctuations in the northern San Juan Mountains, Colorado, U.S.A., as indicated by radiocarbon-dated conifer wood. Arctic and Alpine Research 23: 233-246.
Chen, J., Wan, G., Zhang, D.D., Chen, Z., Xu, J., Xiao, T. and Huang, R. 2005. The 'Little Ice Age' recorded by sediment chemistry in Lake Erhai, southwest China. The Holocene 15: 925-931.
Chuine, I., Yiou, P., Viovy, N., Seguin, B., Daux, V. and Le Roy Ladurie, E. 2004. Grape ripening as a past climate indicator. Nature 432: 289-290.
D'Arrigo, R., Mashig, E., Frank, D., Jacoby, G. and Wilson, R. 2004. Reconstructed warm season temperatures for Nome, Seward Peninsula, Alaska. Geophysical Research Letters 31: 10.1029/2004GL019756.
D'Arrigo, R., Mashig, E., Frank, D., Wilson, R. and Jacoby, G. 2005. Temperature variability over the past millennium inferred from Northwestern Alaska tree rings. Climate Dynamics 24: 227-236.
Dean, J.S. 1994. The Medieval Warm Period on the southern Colorado Plateau. Climatic Change 25: 225-241.
Eronen, M., Zetterberg, P., Briffa, K.R., Lindholm, M., Merilainen, J. and Timonen, M. 2002. The supra-long Scots pine tree-ring record for Finnish Lapland: Part 1, chronology construction and initial inferences. The Holocene 12: 673-680.
Fleitmann, D., Burns, S.J., Neff, U., Mudelsee, M., Mangini, A. and Matter, A. 2004. Palaeoclimatic interpretation of high-resolution oxygen isotope profiles derived from annually laminated speleothems from Southern Oman. Quaternary Science Reviews 23: 935-945.
Gray, S.T., Graumlich, L.J., Betancourt, J.L. and Pederson, G.T. 2004. A tree-ring based reconstruction of the Atlantic Multidecadal Oscillation since 1567 A.D. Geophysical Research Letters 31: 10.1029/2004GL019932.
Helama, S., Lindholm, M., Timonen, M., Merilainen, J,. and Eronen, M. 2002. The supra-long Scots pine tree-ring record for Finnish Lapland: Part 2, interannual to centennial variability in summer temperatures for 7500 years. The Holocene 12: 681-687.
Holmgren, K., Karlen, W., Lauritzen, S.E., Lee-Thorp, J.A., Partridge, T.C., Piketh, S., Repinski, P., Stevenson, C., Svanered, O. and Tyson, P.D. 1999. A 3000-year high-resolution stalagmite-based record of paleoclimate for northeastern South Africa. The Holocene 9: 295-309.
Holmgren, K., Tyson, P.D., Moberg, A. and Svanered, O. 2001. A preliminary 3000-year regional temperature reconstruction for South Africa. South African Journal of Science 99: 49-51.
Holzhauser, H., Magny, M. and Zumbuhl, H.J. 2005. Glacier and lake-level variations in west-central Europe over the last 3500 years. The Holocene 15: 789-801.
Idso, C.D. and Idso, K.E. 2000. The Greening of the American West. Center for the Study of Carbon Dioxide and Global Change, Tempe, AZ, USA.
Keigwin, L.D. 1996. The Little Ice Age and Medieval Warm Period in the Sargasso Sea. Science 274: 1504-1508.
Ku, T.L. and Li, H.C. 1998. Speleothems as high-resolution paleoenvironment archives: Records from northeastern China. Proceedings of the Indian Academy of Science (Earth and Planetary Science) 107: 321-330.
Loehle, C. 2004. Climate change: detection and attribution of trends from long-term geologic data. Ecological Modelling 171: 433-450.
Luckman, B.H. and Wilson, R.J.S. 2005. Summer temperatures in the Canadian Rockies during the last millennium: a revised record. Climate Dynamics 24: 131-144.
Mann, M.E., Bradley, R.S. and Hughes, M.K. 1998. Global-scale temperature patterns and climate forcing over the past six centuries. Nature 392: 779-787.
Mann, M.E., Bradley, R.S. and Hughes, M.K. 1999. Northern Hemisphere temperatures during the past millennium: Inferences, uncertainties, and limitations. Geophysical Research Letters 26: 759-762.
Meyer, G.A., Wells, S.G. and Jull, A.J.T. 1995. Fire and alluvial chronology in Yellowstone National Park: climatic and intrinsic controls on Holocene geomorphic processes. Geological Society of America Bulletin 107: 1211-1230.
Munroe, J.S. 2003. Estimates of Little Ice Age climate inferred through historical rephotography, Northern Uinta Mountains, U.S.A. Arctic, Antarctic, and Alpine Research 35: 489-498.
Pederson, J.L. 2000. Holocene paleolakes of Lake Canyon, Colorado Plateau: paleoclimate and landscape response from sedimentology and allostratigraphy. Geological Society of America Bulletin 112: 147-158.
Petersen, K.L. 1994. A warm and wet Little Climatic Optimum and a cold and dry Little Ice Age in the southern Rocky Mountains, U.S.A. Climatic Change 26: 243-269.
Pla, S. and Catalan, J. 2005. Chrysophyte cysts from lake sediments reveal the submillennial winter/spring climate variability in the northwestern Mediterranean region throughout the Holocene. Climate Dynamics 24: 263-278.
Saenger, C., Cohen, A.L., Oppo, D.W., Halley, R.B. and Carilli, J.E. 2009. Surface-temperature trends and variability in the low-latitude North Atlantic since 1552. Nature Geoscience 2: 492-495.
Sharma, S., Mora, G., Johnston, J.W. and Thompson, T.A. 2005. Stable isotope ratios in swale sequences of Lake Superior as indicators of climate and lake level fluctuations during the Late Holocene. Quaternary Science Reviews 24: 1941-1951.
Silenzi, S., Antonioli, F. and Chemello, R. 2004. A new marker for sea surface temperature trend during the last centuries in temperate areas: Vermetid reef. Global and Planetary Change 40: 105-114.
Tinner, W., Lotter, A.F., Ammann, B., Condera, M., Hubschmied, P., van Leeuwan, J.F.N. and Wehrli, M. 2003. Climatic change and contemporaneous land-use phases north and south of the Alps 2300 BC to AD 800. Quaternary Science Reviews 22: 1447-1460.
Weckstrom, J., Korhola, A., Erasto, P. and Holmstrom, L. 2006. Temperature patterns over the past eight centuries in Northern Fennoscandia inferred from sedimentary diatoms. Quaternary Research 66: 78-86.
Posted by Albert J on Wed 24 Feb 2010 at 06:23 AM
Harold, what difference does it make about the differences between weather forecasting and climate forecasting when there are more basic problems???Like;
1) Neither models work accurately very far into the future, none of the AGWing climate models predicted the cooling this winter or over the last 10 years, nor did any weather models, in fact we have Mark A. York's Hochky stick claiming the exact opposite from Climate models thanks to Prof. Jones and Dr. Mann and Dr. Hansen;
&
2) The main inputs to these models, the EAU CRU data based and the NASA GISS data base are corrupted, cherry picked, manipulated, data is 'lost' and can never be verified and some data is 'hidden' to meet a predetermined outcome?
Posted by Albert J on Wed 24 Feb 2010 at 06:40 AM
"I can make up as many counter theories to your theories about why cooling after WWII and for the last 9-10 years and now, but where is the scientific proof humans are guilty of either?"
It's called the Clean Air Act in this case. That's the scientific reason this period is a brief blip in the long term warming. It may be news to you but we measure things like black carbon and CO2 emissions. We know natural CO2 from man-made by the Suess Effect. Carbon dating. Duh. Look it up Mr. Bi-polar.
Random news story:
'Temperatures during the past decade have been the highest recorded
Last year was tied for the second warmest year since modern temperature record keeping began, and was the hottest in the southern hemisphere, according to a new analysis for the National Aeronautics and Space Administration.
Reaffirming the warming trend, NASA confirmed that globally, temperatures during the past decade have been the highest recorded, although the agency noted that accurate instrumentation to chart weather and climate patterns only became widely available in 1880.
In that time, average global temperatures have risen about 1.4 degrees F. (0.8 C), according to the agency. Almost half that increase has occurred in the past 30 years, after a lull in the middle of the 20th Century.
The new analysis was performed at the Goddard Institute for Space Studies in New York City. In a statement released by NASA, institute Director James Hansen said the data contradict some widely publicized doubts about global warming.
"In the last decade, global warming has not stopped," he said.
Global temperatures during 2009 were fractionally lower than 2005, the hottest overall year on record, according to the report. Last year's heat tied several other years from 1998 to 2007 in the rankings.
In the NASA statement, Hansen said it is more important to look at the trend that at any given year, when variable climate cycles can skew the data."
And you clearly have made up everything, but this is fact. You are obviously seriously disturbed. I recommend getting help. Barring that, go drive your SUV off a cliff and do the world a real favor.
Posted by Mark A. York on Wed 24 Feb 2010 at 01:16 PM
Here's the assessment of the sceptics.
http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache:3gtWwaN9-k0J:www.scirp.org/Journal/PaperDownload.aspx%3FpaperID%3D883%26fileName%3DPsych.20090100004_39584049.pdf+%22Unskilled+and+Unaware+of+It:+How+Difficulties+in+Recognizing+One%27s+Own+Incompetence+Lead+to+Inflated+Self-Assessments%22&cd=10&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us
Posted by Mark A. York on Wed 24 Feb 2010 at 04:01 PM
Urgent, Urgent, we need to know the where abouts of Albert Gore Jr. as soon as possible. We need to move him to the Souther Hemisphere before the huge blizzard hits this weekend, or due to the well known and scientifically established 'Al Gore Affect' (where ever he goes in the winter a Blizzard shows up). The science is settled, there is no time or need for any debate, we need to act now before the world ends as we know it. If you can't find him, please check on his new boat, the BS-1 please! Information can be found about the Al Gore Affect here:::: http://www.compeaus.com/frozen.html,,,
Here comes the Blizzard, and it's snowing in Houston again the third time this year, normally Houston get's one light dusting every 15-18 years;
Strengthening Northeast Storm to Cause Immobilizing Blizzard, Damage
2/25/2010 4:08 AM:::
A strengthening storm will take aim at the Northeast with immobilizing blizzard conditions in some areas and disruptive snow, a treacherous wintry mix, flooding rain, and battering waves in others. Not only will travel be severely impacted by the storm, but serious property damage can occur.
As the storm intensifies, the winds across the mid-Atlantic and Northeast will strengthen later today and tonight. Wind gusts could even reach hurricane-force in some areas. Widespread power outages can occur.
Downed trees, trash cans, and shingles will be among the debris that will litter some neighborhoods.
The heaviest snow, 1-2 feet, will be immobilizing from the Poconos and Catskills through a stretch of Upstate New York, including Syracuse. The Green and White Mountains in New England will also be buried by a paralyzing 1-2 feet of snow.
A broad area of 6- to 12-inch snowfall will fall from northern New Brunswick to central New Jersey, much of Pennsylvania, northeastern Ohio and southern Ontario. New York City and Philadelphia are among the cities that lie within this zone.
Some communities in upstate New York and New England have already been buried by 1-2 feet of snow from a storm over the past couple of days.
Posted by Albert J on Thu 25 Feb 2010 at 05:27 AM
What planning, what follow through, its such a great thing to see a plan come to fruition! I'm sure now we can save the world by imposing Carbon taxes on those least able to afford them with wonderful results!
California’s weatherization program has finished retrofitting just 12 houses out of a planned 43,400 homes statewide, despite receiving $93 million in federal stimulus funds for the program.
A just-released Department of Energy study shows that only five states are behind California in retrofitting.
Posted by Albert J on Thu 25 Feb 2010 at 05:48 AM
Glug glug glug...
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/opinions/cartoonsandvideos/telnaes/telnaes02122010.html
Posted by Mark A. York on Thu 25 Feb 2010 at 12:34 PM
No consensus on why Earth hasn't warmed since 1998, says noted climatologist
"There is a lack of consensus," said Kevin Trenberth, head of the Climate Analysis Section at the U.S. National Center for Atmospheric Research, on why global temperatures have not matched a peak set in 1998, or in 2005 according to one U.S. analysis.
Posted by padikiller on Thu 25 Feb 2010 at 01:32 PM
That is two data points: peaks in two specific years. I can play that card too. Let's try months shall we.
"It's not warming the same everywhere but it is really quite challenging to find places that haven't warmed in the past 50 years," veteran Australian climate scientist Neville Nicholls told an online climate science media briefing.
"January, according to satellite (data), was the hottest January we've ever seen," said Nicholls of Monash University's School of Geography and Environmental Science in Melbourne.
"Last November was the hottest November we've ever seen, November-January as a whole is the hottest November-January the world has seen," he said of the satellite data record since 1979."
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20100225/ts_nm/us_climate_warming
"The World Meteorological Organization (WMO) said in December that 2000-2009 was the hottest decade since records began in 1850, and that 2009 would likely be the fifth warmest year on record. WMO data show that eight out of the 10 hottest years on record have all been since 2000."
You don't know what a trend is Mr. King Cherry-picker. Hottest decade since measurements began in 1850. Reality. Deal with it, denier.
Posted by mark A. York on Thu 25 Feb 2010 at 04:21 PM
"No consensus on why Earth hasn't warmed since 1998, says noted climatologist
"There is a lack of consensus," said Kevin Trenberth"
cite your quotes:
http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/LDE61N0TR.htm
"The decade 2000-2009 was the hottest since 1850 as a result of warming through the 1980s and 1990s which has since peaked, says the World Meteorological Organisation.
British Hadley Centre scientists said last year that there was no warming from 1999-2008, after allowing for extreme, natural weather patterns. Temperatures should have risen by a widely estimated 0.2 degrees Centigrade, given a build up of manmade greenhouse gases.
"Solar might be one part of it," said the Hadley's Jeff Knight, adding that changes in the way data was gathered could be a factor, as well as shifts in the heat stored by oceans.
The sun goes through phases in activity, and since 2001 has been in a downturn meaning it may have heated the earth a little less, scientists say.
"We've not put our finger precisely on what has changed," Knight said. "(But) If you add all these things together ... there's nothing really there to challenge the idea that there's going to be large warming in the 21st century."
Melting Arctic ice was evidence for continuing change, regardless of observed temperatures, said Stein Sandven, head of the Nansen Environmental and Remote Sensing Center in Norway.
"The long-term change for the Arctic sea ice has been very consistent. It shows a decline over these (past) three decades especially in the summer. In the past 3-4 years Arctic sea ice has been below the average for the last 30 years.""
Posted by Thimbles on Fri 26 Feb 2010 at 04:23 AM
"There is a lack of consensus," said Kevin Trenberth"... ...British Hadley Centre scientists said last year that there was no warming from 1999-2008... ...Temperatures should have risen by a widely estimated 0.2 degrees Centigrade, given a build up of manmade greenhouse gases. ...."Solar might be one part of it,... ,,,,changes in the way data was gathered could be a factor, as well as shifts in the heat stored by oceans..The sun goes through phases in activity, and since 2001 has been in a downturn meaning it may have heated the earth a little less, scientists say. "We've not put our finger precisely on what has changed," Knight said. "(But) If you add all these things together ... there's nothing really there to challenge the idea that there's going to be large warming in the 21st century."
padikiller notes: "Should"? No "consensus"? "If"? "May"? "Not put our finger precisely" on it? "Might"?
Yeah.. You AGWists have some rock-solid science in the glove!... No escaping this kind of ironclad logic, is there?
I especially like Jeff Knight's spin... To paraphrase "we have no consensus, and don't really know why the Earth is heating up like the AGW models predict... But 'there's nothing there to challenge' AGW.".
The new AGW "scientific" standard! Instead of demanding proof in support of a theory from data, we demand that data refute our theory! This new standard will make science a LOT more fun! Let's try it out:
1. We haven't precisely determined why no Sasquatch monsters have been found in Central Park, but looking at the data, there's nothing there to challenge the theory that we'll find a bunch of them by the ice rink next week.
2. We haven't precisely determined why we haven't detected the space alien mothership, but there's nothing in the data to challenge our prediction of an alien invasion next year.
This new standard falls right into line with the "barely statistically insignificant' standard so ardently advocated here!
AGWism is a laugh a minute!
Posted by padikiller on Fri 26 Feb 2010 at 08:19 AM
For a guy who isn't at all concerned about accuracy or ethical lapses when it involves right wing rat f*ckers and ACORN,
http://www.cjr.org/campaign_desk/the_ethics_of_undercover_journalism.php#comments
you sure make a big deal of them when it involves science you don't like.
Just remember, the same weasel techniques you're using to emphasize the "qualified" parts of qualified climate findings, which are the kind of findings responsible scientists issue, are the ones used by smoking causes cancer jerks
http://tobacco.health.usyd.edu.au/site/supersite/resources/docs/gallery_advertising.htm
Yeah, it took 60 years to "prove" smoking causes cancer, but the relation between cancer and smoking was pretty clear to begin with.
As is the relationship between melting ice and green house gasses even during a solar minimum.
Posted by Thimbles on Fri 26 Feb 2010 at 11:30 AM
On the topic of denial industries, I didn't need to read this:
http://www.gq.com/cars-gear/gear-and-gadgets/201002/warning-cell-phone-radiation?printable=true
:(
Posted by Thimbles on Fri 26 Feb 2010 at 11:43 AM
padkiller; these pseudo scientific arguments of the AGWers are all just pivots and tangents to distract from the fact that there are 2 cooling periods since WWII when we had great out put bursts of man made CO2, one right after WWII, and one the last 15 years (if you remove the 1998 El Nino affect the graphs really get messed up for AGWers), and the result was cooling, not warming-so there goes the entire CO2 AGWing theory, up in Hot Air. Plus there are at least 2, maybe 3 warmer periods since Roman times with out any industrialized CO2 outputs. You can hide one decline, but not two. You can remove one warming period before Industrialization from Wikipedia but not 3.
AGWers are busted any way they turn and no mater how many pseudo scientific reasons they come up with.
Save the Iguanas! From Global Cooling!
Posted by Albert J on Fri 26 Feb 2010 at 11:48 AM
In the pad killer tradition:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=txYH8RCC-Qk
Posted by Thimbles on Fri 26 Feb 2010 at 11:54 AM
So many repeated lies... so many...
During the industrialization period humans pumped out a lot of CO2, but they also pumped out a lot of SO2. SO2 reflects sunlight, which is why the geoengineering side of the anti-environmental crusade wants to pump sulfur into the upper atmosphere instead of doing any regulation of emissions.
"out put bursts of man made CO2, one right after WWII, and one the last 15 years (if you remove the 1998 El Nino affect the graphs really get messed up for AGWers), and the result was cooling, not warming-so there goes the entire CO2 AGWing theory, up in Hot Air."
Can you show a formula or a mechanism of how increased CO2 equals cooling? Or document the cooling?
"Plus there are at least 2, maybe 3 warmer periods since Roman times with out any industrialized CO2 outputs."
Go on, prove that.
OH, but wait. In order to prove that you have to use the techniques of climate investigation that you claim are unreliable when it comes to current prediction. So sad for you that your crack pot theories are more fragile than any from the AGW side.
Posted by Thimbles on Fri 26 Feb 2010 at 12:09 PM
My post from another thread on this site:
I'm not a "Denialist"...
I'm a "Demanderist"...
Show me the following evidence and I'll trade my home equity for carbon credits forthwith:
1. The specific AGW model that accounts for all of the global warming up to 1995 and also accounts for the lack of warming since then, while CO2 concentrations have increased the whole time.
2. Peer-reviewed and independently corroborated proof that lowering atmospheric CO2 concentrations to a specific level will result in a specific average global temperature - meaning that there exists a particular CO2 concentration that will hold temperatures steady.
3. The rates, to within a 50% margin or error, at which CO2 is respectively absorbed by and released by, the Earth's oceans, which hold more than 50 times the CO2 than the atmosphere holds.
4. An AGW model that accounts for the elevated temperatures of the Medeival Warm Period, the depressed temperatures of the the Little Ice Age, the most global warming trend that ended in 1995 and also accounts for the atmospheric CO2 concentrations during all of these periods.
Posted by padikiller on Fri 26 Feb 2010 at 01:33 PM
Thimbles wrote: "Yeah, it took 60 years to "prove" smoking causes cancer, but the relation between cancer and smoking was pretty clear to begin with."
padikiller responds: AGW does not suffer the comparison to tobacco=caused illness.
It was easy enough to correlate lung cancer and smoking from observation. More smokers got cancer than non-smokers. The more smokers smoked, the more frequently they got cancer. The evidence overcame skepticism and the opposition of tobacco companies.
The same crap is happening now with "medical marijuana" and its proven detrimental impact on health (though I notice an inexplicable reluctance among liberals to note the money-grabbing similarities between "Big Tobacco" and the Medical Marijuana movement).
The correlation just isn't there between CO2 and temperature... And none of the "tricks" used by AGWists can make such a correlation appear out of thin air. CO2 has risen every one of the last 15 years- but there has been no warming over the same period, even though the AGW models predicted a 0.2 C increase.
The data just doesn't support the AGW silliness. There is no reliable AGW model. PERIOD.
The only way that AGWists can get the job done is through fraud...
We'll just pretend the Medeival Warm Period didn't happen. We'll use tree ring data when it promotes AGW, but we'll substitute in other data to "hide the decline" when the tree ring data breaks bad on us... We'll compare data sets on our graph, but when one of these sets starts to to show cooling, we'll just lift up the pen on that data set and continue graphing the remaining ones that show warming.. We'll use "very artificial" "fudge factors" as coefficients in our already cherry-picked data sets to program our computers to make a scary "hockey stick" graph.. We'll ignore the fact that the Earth stopped warming in 1995, and we'll conspire to slime, harass and intimidate who bothers to point this lack of warming out to us. We'll take World Wildlife Fund and Greenpeace press releases and incorporate them as "scientific findings" in our UN-chartered climate change report. We'll ignore our mistakes and hide them even when they are pointed out to us so that we can glide through our climate summit without any nasty questions. We'll collude to keep our data hidden.. We'll conspire to avoid FOIA laws.. We'll corrupt, lose, or destroy our raw data sets....Etcetera... Etcetera... Etcetera....
There is simply no scientific basis for AGWism.
Posted by padikiller on Fri 26 Feb 2010 at 02:00 PM
All of those contentions are proven.
http://climate.nasa.gov/evidence/
All the data sources are here: http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/data-sources/
"But several lines of evidence show that current global warming cannot be explained by changes in energy from the sun:
Since 1750, the average amount of energy coming from the Sun either remained constant or increased slightly.
If the warming were caused by a more active sun, then scientists would expect to see warmer temperatures in all layers of the atmosphere. Instead, they have observed a cooling in the upper atmosphere, and a warming at the surface and in the lower parts of the atmosphere. That's because greenhouse gasses are trapping heat in the lower atmosphere.
Climate models that include solar irradiance changes can’t reproduce the observed temperature trend over the past century or more without including a rise in greenhouse gases."
The sad fact pdiddy is you can't handle the truth and can't come up with a scientific explanation that refutes AGW as much as you'd like to. There isn't one and the best minds in the world know it. Of course as we've painfully seen here under your private bridge, you are no candidate for membership.
Here's your sign.
Posted by Mark A. York on Fri 26 Feb 2010 at 02:25 PM
"We'll ignore the fact that the Earth stopped warming in 1995, and we'll conspire to slime, harass and intimidate who bothers to point this lack of warming out to us."
Slimer meet thyself. Hottest decade ever. How is that cooling? You must have early onset Alzheimer's. However this continued defaming is getting old. All you have is disproven myths and slander. Someone will sue. I mean you're hanging around Columbia U. where the Goddard Lab is shouting defamatory language about the top scientists there. Figure, as one prominent conservative columnist once told me, that it will cost you $75K to pony up. You aren't trained in the word game and certainly not in the sciences. Back off.
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn11462
Posted by Mark A. York on Fri 26 Feb 2010 at 02:42 PM
padikiller wrote previously: "We'll ignore the fact that the Earth stopped warming in 1995, and we'll conspire to slime, harass and intimidate who bothers to point this lack of warming out to us."
Dr. York hyperventilates in obfuscation:" Slimer meet thyself. Hottest decade ever. How is that cooling?"
padikiller keeps it real: Dude, learn English...
A "lack of warming" isn't "cooling".
Nice try, Professor, but no cigar this time, either. Nobody is claiming that there has been significant recent global "cooling" (there has been cooling since 2002 - just not statistically significant cooling).
What I wrote was the truth... Namely that there hasn't been any significant WARMING since 1995.
The AGW models call for a 0.2 C rise over the last 15 years... And there has been 0.0 C rise. Zippo. Nada. Zilch. Zero. Rien.
This is called R-E-A-L-I-T-Y.
Try it sometime, "Doc".
Posted by padikiller on Fri 26 Feb 2010 at 04:03 PM
What are the variables? Solar radiation? Atmospheric composition? Ocean composition? Glacial melts? You can't pick up the ocean and analyze it to perfect accuracy. Same with the atmosphere. The Sun has been in a solar minimum phase.
You are pretending that these things have been perfectly quantified and that there is no excuse for the models 100% prediction of all things.
Predictions are made on known information and there is som