This post by James Pethokoukis, who recently hopped over to AEI from Reuters, shows how to combine the worst tendencies of Slate (contrarian shtick), Business Insider (misleading, hyped headlines), and think tanks (paid-for spin), and puts it in internet-friendly listicle format:
5 reasons why income inequality is a myth — and Occupy Wall Street is wrong
This, at least the first part of it, is false in a you’ve-got-to-be-kidding-me kind of way, which is the whole point. That kind of headline draws you to read the post, which proceeds to give seemingly sound (but ultimately misleading) evidence for why inequality isn’t growing in order to plants seeds of doubt about whether that whole inequality thing is really a problem.
You’re probably not going to take the time to poke holes in it, so I will. A deeper look at this post shows that the body is nearly as flawed as the headline.
First, remember that income inequality is an obvious fact—a glaring one, actually:
The poorest 20 percent of households made an average $11,034 last year, $179 less than they did in 1979. The median income rose to $49,445 last year from $46,074 in 1979, while the top 20 percent made an average $169,633, or $48,536 more than in 1979.
But the real blowout hasn’t been between the 80th and 99th percentiles. It’s been in the top 1 percent and top 0.1 percent, which is why that “We Are the 99 percent” slogan has struck such a chord. The poorest member of the top 1 percent made $347,000 in 2007 (the latest year I can find), more than double the $165,049 they made in 1979.
Pethokoukis gets it totally wrong in his first point, reporting on the conclusions of a working paper by Robert Gordon which he sums up as “In other words, income gains were shared fairly equally” between 1979 and 2007. You be the judge:
That’s CBO data, as is this:
But don’t take it from me or from the well respected, nonpartisan CBO. Take it from Pethokoukis’s source himself. Gordon:
The evidence is incontrovertible that American income inequality has increased in the United States since the 1970s.
That’s the very first sentence of Gordon’s paper, which Pethokoukis somehow overlooked. In debunking the inequality of the top 1 percent and everyone else, he also forgets to mention this Gordon quote:
Because of the very different behavior of the top 1 percent and the bottom 99 percent, this paper treats as two separate topics the causes of changes of inequality at the very top and among the remaining 99 percent of the population.
That’s from page one. Here’s more:
We have seen that the timing and interpretation of increases in top incomes at the top 1.0 and 0.1 percent levels is very different than that in the bottom 99 percent. Much of the within‐group increase in inequality in the bottom 99 percent occurred before 1993, whereas between 1993 and 2000 there continued to be an increase in the income share of the top one percent, and a continuing shift toward the top 0.1 and 0.01 percent groups within the top one percent segment.
And maybe a couple of charts from Gordon’s paper will help:
Pethokoukis’s second bullet point quotes Federal Reserve Board of Minneapolis papers by Terry Fitzgerald to say that adjusting for things like declining household sizes, median household income rose 44 percent to 62 percent between 1976 and 2006 and that median hourly wages rose roughly 30 percent (when including non-cash benefits like health care). But Fitzgerald also points out that per capita personal income rose by 80 percent during the same era. What accounts for the difference between median and mean pay? Fitzgerald:
The remaining difference between the 44 percent to 62 percent increase in median household incomes and the 80 percent increase in BEA personal income per person appears to be largely attributable to an increase in income inequality.
That’s Fitzgerald from his 2008 paper. Pethokoukis misses that quote too.
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This was a nice article. But it would have been effective if it was published as part of an annual remedial education for the public. But it wasn't so it will be ignored or forgotten by the masses. Then right wing and left wing demagogues will continue to manipluate statistics for their ends justify the means ideologies.
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A teacher would be fired if her lectures were as unpredictable as the events the news media must investigate. This is the biggest reason why the average American is too ignorant to vote intelligently. But no one in the news mediacares about solving this problem. It would be so easy to do. I have come to the conclusion that journalism are too narcisstic to communicate like a teacher instead of a teacher. And that includes the people who work at CJR.
#1 Posted by Stanley Krauter, CJR on Thu 27 Oct 2011 at 01:30 PM
So in terms of spending power over the last 30 years the rich have gotten richer, while the poor have gotten.... richer. In fact, in terms of 2007 dollars, EVERYBODY's gotten richer over the last 30 years.
"Poor Got Richer" - Now THERE'S a factual headline you won't see on Mother Jones, CJR or any of the other commie outlets.
But you guys are griping because the poor got richer, but not as much as the richest people got richer? Seriously?
If you commies want some wealth... Why don't you make it, instead of trying to get the gubmint to steal it for you?
Do W O R K.
C R E A T E something people want.
F A C I L I T A T E transactions that let people get or do things they want.
Steve Jobs took a bread box and some microchips and turned them into the largest company in the world. He didn't bang drums in a park, bitching about The Man.
To paraphrase the Home Depot commercial, "More doing, less bitching".
Et voila! Wealth.
#2 Posted by padikiller, CJR on Thu 27 Oct 2011 at 03:08 PM
Since when is the purpose of Columbia Journalism Review analyzing the validity of studies by AEI? I thought this was a journal that covered, well, journalism.
Of course, it isn't. It is a leftist political publication.
That is not to say, of course, that Mr. Chittum's critique is invalid, even if I don't know what his qualifications are to offer his critique.
It seems the very thin reed upon which to base this critique is that the author in question worked for Reuters.
When will CJR publish a column from a conservative ex-journalist analyzing the faults of a pro-ObamaCare piece written by a former journalist now working for a leftist think-tank?
Not holding my breath.
#3 Posted by Newspaperman, CJR on Thu 27 Oct 2011 at 05:04 PM
"That is not to say, of course, that Mr. Chittum's critique is invalid, even if I don't know what his qualifications are to offer his critique."
Of course. Why bother with substance?
His qualifications are internal to the post itself. It's a strong argument. What's the rebuttal? That's the real debate, rather than trying to police who can write which post about what.
#4 Posted by Dean Starkman, CJR on Fri 28 Oct 2011 at 05:57 AM
@#4
With all due respect, Mr. Starkman, the argumentum ad verecundiam and circular reasoning are dogs that won't hunt.
So is the straw man.
I did not critique the validity of Mr. Chittum's analysis. He may very be well correct. I don't care.
I want to know why this publication, which is, ostensibly, a journal about journalism, devotes so much space to peddling leftist political ideas.
You offer no answer.
#5 Posted by Newspaperman, CJR on Fri 28 Oct 2011 at 12:41 PM
Sorry, Newspaperman,
This was published on a blog of The American magazine, which is published by AEI, by a guy who worked for Reuters a month ago and which has been picked up by blogs and the mainstream media
And this goes to AEI's credibility as a source too, which is obviously a press issue.
#6 Posted by Ryan Chittum, CJR on Fri 28 Oct 2011 at 12:46 PM
Newspaperman wrote: "I want to know why this publication, which is, ostensibly, a journal about journalism, devotes so much space to peddling leftist political ideas."
padikiller agrees: So do a lot of other people.
Ryan, like most of the other "watchdogs" here, will quote every alt.conspiracy.wall_street "source" he can find in order to further the commie cause. Anything that runs counter to the standard liberal "big government, bad corporation" line is either ignored outright, summarily dismissed, or swept under the rug.
#7 Posted by padikiller, CJR on Fri 28 Oct 2011 at 01:46 PM
I kind of like Charles Pierce's take on this:
http://www.esquire.com/blogs/politics/income-inequality-statistics-6530536
"There will also be a reason for the Congressional Budget Office, if only for the nearly comic bureaucratic judiciousness of the following sentence:
"The equalizing effect of federal taxes was smaller" in 2007 than in 1979, as "the composition of federal revenues shifted away from progressive income taxes to less-progressive payroll taxes."
No kidding.
You gotta get up pretty early in 1981 to fool the CBO.
My favorite statistic? That, adjusted for inflation, the after-tax income of the top one percent of families has risen 275 percent. ("You can only sell 100 percent of anything, Max." —Leo Bloom, The Producers.) The top 20 percent of families saw their after-tax income grow 65 percent. The middle of the middle class? Forty percent. The poorest fifth of us? Eighteen percent. Yes, to paraphrase Mr. Joyce, redistribution was general all over the United States. And it all went upwards. Everybody is the 99 percent, and this was in every way deliberate and in every way avoidable.
Which makes Brian Moynihan, the embattled CEO of Bank of America (Company Motto: We Will Foreclose on You If Your Dog Can't Sign His Name), guilty not only of the ongoing crime of impersonating a human being, but also of excruciatingly bad timing. Nobody cares how upset you are at being yelled at, ace. In 2009, the taxpayers of the United States gave you 20 billion reasons to shut your piehole."
#8 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Fri 28 Oct 2011 at 05:10 PM
How many working brain cells does one need to grasp that "less poor" is not synonomous with "richer", or that you must first be rich to become richer?
And, by the way, just because someone is not a fascist does not make them a "commie".
#9 Posted by doncastro, CJR on Fri 28 Oct 2011 at 05:24 PM
You quote Robert Gordon: "The evidence is incontrovertible that American income inequality has increased in the United States since the 1970s." You then write:
"That’s the very first sentence of Gordon’s paper, which Pethokoukis somehow overlooked..."
Somehow YOU overlooked the sentence that followed the one you quote:
"This paper shows that the rise in American inequality has been exaggerated in at least three senses."
You also neglected to report Professor Gordon's abstract of his paper, which states: "The rise in American inequality has been exaggerated both in magnitude and timing. Commentators lament the large gap between the growth rates of real median household income and of private sector productivity.This paper shows that a conceptually consistent measure of this growth gap over 1979 to 2007 is only one‐tenth of the conventional measure. Further, the timing of the rise of inequality is often misunderstood. ..."
You can argue with both Gordon and Pethokoukis' conclusions, but to distort
what they write is breathtakingly dishonest.
John Austin
#10 Posted by john austin, CJR on Fri 28 Oct 2011 at 05:44 PM
The Gordon paper seems real charming. If I am reading this correctly:
"Directly supporting our theme of prior exaggeration of the rise of inequality is new research showing that price indexes for the poor rise more slowly than for the rich, causing most empirical measures of inequality to overstate the growth of real income of the rich vs. the poor. Further, as much as two-thirds of the post-1980 increase in the college wage premium disappears when allowance is made for the faster rise in the cost of living in cities where the college educated congregate and for the lower quality of housing in those cities. A continuing tendency for life expectancy to increase faster among the rich than among the poor reflects the joint impact of education on both economic and health outcomes, some of which are driven by the behavioral choices of the less educated."
He's saying "Even though the rich made vastly more money, "inequality" hasn't increased because they've experienced greater inflation in the goods they buy. A poor man may not have got a raise in a decade or two, but he can buy his dungarees at Walmart for a smile price. You think armani sells at Walmart at a smile price? Think again. So yeah, rich people have it hard. We should give them another tax cut.
PS. The rich don't live longer because they can afford better things, the rich live longer because they aren't stupid. If they were stupid, they'd be poor."
Like I said, charming.
#11 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Fri 28 Oct 2011 at 06:24 PM
I don't think so, John Austin--
Pethokoukis used part of what Gordon said to illustrate that "income inequality is a myth" and that "income gains were shared fairly equally." This is false, as I showed by quoting the first sentence of Gordon's paper. I did not dispute any of Gordon's conclusions, only Pethokoukis misleading interpretation of them.
#12 Posted by Ryan Chittum, CJR on Fri 28 Oct 2011 at 07:00 PM
Given that all Americas, including our obese "poor", have gotten richer over the last 30 years, the increase in the so-called "inequality" between them is a good thing.
It means that society is most rewarding the people who made wealth for everybody.
What's wrong with that?
The people who grow the economy should be rewarded. It's only fair.
Who grows the economy more? The guy in jail? The mother of three who lives off of welfare? The guy who installs the spark plugs on a Ford assembly line?
Or a guy like Steve Jobs?
Of these people, who makes more wealth for everybody?
If you want to talk about "inequality" let's look at taxes!
Half of Americans pay no income tax at all, and the fraction of Americans who pay no income taxes has increased steadily over the last 30 years, even though these Americans are better off now than they were 30 years ago.
#13 Posted by padikiller, CJR on Sat 29 Oct 2011 at 09:54 AM
Why do so many commentators who rail against those who pay no "income taxes" conveniently overlook the fact that Social Security taxes are paid from the first dollar of income but phase out above $106,000, so that people who earn more than $106,000 per year pay a decreasing percentage of their income in Social Security taxes.
They also conveniently leave out a discussion of taxes like state and local sales tax which levy a much higher proportional cost on the poor than on the wealthy. Federal gas taxes are also disproportionately high on poorer individuals if they are able to own and drive a vehicle.
And when it comes to deductions, wealthy individuals with large mortgages get a much bigger allowance than people who can only afford to rent.
The real reason why people below the median income level pay little or no Federal income tax is that they have very little taxable income. I would wager that most, if not all, of those fortunate individuals whose income is low enough to qualify for the privilege of paying no income tax would happily trade places with those who have the burden of paying the highest income tax rates on their million-dollar incomes.
#14 Posted by Alan J. Barnes, CJR on Sat 29 Oct 2011 at 10:30 AM
"Who grows the economy more?"
Easy question.
It's the guy who installs the spark plugs on a Ford assembly line.
Steve Jobs is one person who relied on an organization he created staffed by people who were educated largely from the taxes of the guy on the assembly line.
It's a shame that conservatives over the decades have become so contemptuous of people who do actual work that they would leave them behind so they could steal their income gains over the last 40 years.
http://www.nytimes.com/imagepages/2011/09/04/opinion/04reich-graphic.html?ref=sunday
And the result of this change is that imbeciles from rich families can rest assured that they will be taken care of, recieving educational advantages the poor don't, maybe even becoming president:
http://www.stateofworkingamerica.org/charts/view/25
While the intelligent poor have to scrounge for work amongst help desks and custodial jobs, when they're not in the military, since the assembly line work was moved to China to grow their economy.
For somebody who talks about work, you sure hate the people who actually do it.
#15 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Sat 29 Oct 2011 at 10:39 AM
Nobel Prize winning economist Dr. Paul Krugman does a wonderful bit Saturday morning on the absurdity of the AEI study, and CJR's takedown of the piece:
http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/10/29/denial-in-depth/
CJR has every right to dissect the AEI "study" because it is published and distributed to the media for quoting. The fact is that the AEI has been wrong on every bit of analysis regarding the economy since it was founded yet it continues to be taken seriously by the MSM.
#16 Posted by Charley James, CJR on Sat 29 Oct 2011 at 10:44 AM
I can't believe basic math and logic are in such short supply here. The person that read poor peoples incomes have gone up 30% since the 70s is missing the point that 1) that 30% increase barely outpaces inflation and 2) 30% of 13,000 isn't much. Moreover you ignore the fact that the richest people have TRIPLED their income! In what universe does saying my 30% increase and your 275% increase in income are proof that everything is fair in this system. Rich people experience more inflation? How do they notice after they buy the 100ft boat and the third mansion they're still rich. But when a gallon of milk goes up by $.80 I know I notice. And to the idiot that said rich people live longer because they aren't stupid; does that mean you'll be leaving this mortal coil soon? That was one of the most idiotic things I've read in a while.
#17 Posted by eddie8374, CJR on Sat 29 Oct 2011 at 10:45 AM
Padkiller seems to think that all the poor need is a breadbox and a good idea.
#18 Posted by Bart, CJR on Sat 29 Oct 2011 at 10:48 AM
It makes me sad that so few of the commentators are actually interested in the truth (income inequality has increased) rather push a stale agenda ("the poor should just work harder").
The simple truth is that if 50% of our nation cannot afford a proper education we don't leverage 50% of our talent. This is unsustainable. It's short-sighted.
#19 Posted by Marc, CJR on Sat 29 Oct 2011 at 10:52 AM
eddie8374, your facts mean nothing to the wingnuts posting on this thread.
Their minds are made up. All you will get from them is "Commie! Leftist Liberal!", etc.
The A.E.I. used up all its credibility long ago. It should not be used as a source by any paper that maintains even a modest claim to objectivity.
~
#20 Posted by ifthethunderdontgetya™³²®©, CJR on Sat 29 Oct 2011 at 10:53 AM
This is the first sentence of the abstract of Gordon's paper:
"The rise in American inequality has been exaggerated both in magnitude and timing."
Now, who's misrepresenting his findings?
#21 Posted by Emo, CJR on Sat 29 Oct 2011 at 11:27 AM
Emo, you need to work on your reading comprehension. Gordon's paper makes very clear that income inequality between the top 1% and the bottom 99% has grown substantially. The quote you refer to is the growth in inequality between people in the bottom 99%. The OWS protestors refer to themselves as the bottom 99%.
#22 Posted by jerry, CJR on Sat 29 Oct 2011 at 11:51 AM
More wealth was created in the US between 1945 and 1980, when taxes were higher and income inequality was much lower, than has been created since. And the idea that "everyone got richer" means it's OK for the wealth to percolate to smaller and smaller slices of society essentially ignores the history of civilization. It's called progress, and its the result of an educated public, not the brilliance of glorified money changers.
#23 Posted by cce, CJR on Sat 29 Oct 2011 at 12:26 PM
Emo is correct that the first line of the online *abstract* to which the link goes reads, "The rise in American inequality has been exaggerated both in magnitude and timing."
Can anyone confirm that this is also the first line of the *actual paper* itself, or is what Ryan C. reports: "The evidence is incontrovertible that American income inequality has increased in the United States since the 1970s."
This seems to be an important point.
Another question. Does the abstract accurately reflect what the full article actually demonstrates?
#24 Posted by Paul, CJR on Sat 29 Oct 2011 at 01:21 PM
AEI are digging their own graves with this sort of dreck. At the end of the day the only people it's going to convince the brain dead (some of whom are posting here I see). Thereby Pethokoukis who can't possibly believe this stuff is just producing a self reinforcing narrative of silliness for a shrinking group of people that just want to be told what they want to hear. If you're a democrat this sort of stuff has to be music to your ears because it's almost childishly simple to shoot down. You don't have to be Paul Krugman. So what's their goal you have to wonder because ultimately this sort of nonsense is self defeating.
#25 Posted by John, CJR on Sat 29 Oct 2011 at 01:31 PM
Commenters should take another look at the CBO table of incomes from 1979 to 2007. For this period adjusted household incomes for the second quintile increased $3568; for the middle quintile it increased $6918. That is all the improvement over half the people in the country have seen in almost 30 years. During this time, how much did the cost of housing go up, how much did the cost of college go up? Health insurance, deductibles, prescriptions? Food, gasoline, utilities? I get that there are people who refuse to accept information that challenges their beliefs, but there is no denying the reality of economic decay the middle class has been experiencing. Those who tritely say that the numbers prove the poor have gotten richer demonstrate their need to ignore the reality of declining way of life, purchasing power, and opportunity available to the majority of people in the country. That is a fact you’ll never see AEI admit. That is what Pethokoukis and AEI want to paper over, and that is what their audience want to deny exists. America’s middle class has long been recognized as the core of the nation’s strength and the embodiment of the American Dream, not the rich. What most of us have known for years, and what the media and politicians are only now starting to discuss is how we got here. The current course is unsustainable, unless the goal to destroy the American dream, the middle class.
#26 Posted by Mark, CJR on Sat 29 Oct 2011 at 01:34 PM
Looking at the numbers I don't think there is any doubt that the US has experienced acute income inequality over the last 30 years.
However, Emo's point about what the first line of the online abstract actually says still remains valid in the context of a journalism review magazine attacking someone for misquoting and misrepresenting.
Can anyone say what the first line of Gordon's actual paper is and whether it is different than the first line of the online abstract?
Does anyone know whether Gordon also wrote the abstract, and whether it accurately reflects his arguments in the paper (I have had editors compose completely misleading abstracts).
Since Ryan Chittum, who wrote the piece, is responding to various posts, it seems strange to me that he has been silent on this one.
#27 Posted by Paul, CJR on Sat 29 Oct 2011 at 01:48 PM
Frankly, two of Pethokoukis's points are simply pathetic. The fact that some of the top 1%'s luxury goods have gone up in price - though not air travel, technology-based products, hotel rooms and many other luxury goods when adjusted for inflation (many have actually decreased) - is totally irrelevant to the "argument."
And his brazen "non-quantifiable" assertion "But the past few decades have been pretty good—for everybody" is simply untrue. Been to Appalachia? The rural deep south? Some of our cities finest slums?
Everything is so simple when you live in a cocoon.
#28 Posted by MACH 1513, CJR on Sat 29 Oct 2011 at 02:16 PM
Mr. Chittum hurts his credibility in the way he cites that Gordon article. The second line of the Gordon article says "This paper shows that the rise in American inequality has been exaggerated in at least three senses..." and then maintains his "better" measure should be 1/10th the size of the frequently quoted one.
Gordon's analysis is in line with the AEI piece's point. Chittum's piece loses credibility by this type of distortion, regardless of whether Gordon's metrics make sense.
#29 Posted by J, CJR on Sat 29 Oct 2011 at 02:19 PM
Mr. Chittum, kudos for the great work. AEI is all over the press peddling their right wing garbage and it' certainly within CJR purview to publish your paper debunking AEI
#30 Posted by medgeek, CJR on Sat 29 Oct 2011 at 02:21 PM
During the housing boom articles from guys like this used to admit there was growing income inequality but then said, hey, everybody's house is flying up in value and this increased equity everybody has is a solid result of sbusiness-friendly pro-growth policies that we've had since Reagan onwards. That line doesn't really work these days though, does it?
#31 Posted by Dick Dastardly, CJR on Sat 29 Oct 2011 at 02:21 PM
awfully long post, hard to follow what the post is saying about what someone else is saying.
And a lot of charts, that are not very clear; surely you could have done with a few fewer
However, there is one really important point here, which I have not heard before: since household sizes are declining, the well known (I'm sure at least to this blog) flattening in median house hold income takes on a new light
That point is important, and should have been emphasized (but, omg, you would have to admit that the right got something right...which, if you read P Krugmans analysis of this blog, isn't possible)
#32 Posted by ezra abrams, CJR on Sat 29 Oct 2011 at 02:24 PM
You can find the complete Gordonpaper here:
http://piketty.pse.ens.fr/fichiers/enseig/ecoineg/articl/Gordon2009.pdf
since it is still a working paper it is freely available to the public.
Point is, the paper claims nowehre, as far as I can see that income inequality is in fact a myth. It only says that there might be some exaggeration. Therefore the criticism towards the AEI seems perfectly justified. Also it splits the population into the top 1% and the rest.
#33 Posted by gilp, CJR on Sat 29 Oct 2011 at 02:34 PM
I am sorry, in my last port the word "growing" is missing, between "that" and "income"...
#34 Posted by gilp, CJR on Sat 29 Oct 2011 at 02:50 PM
Thank you for the link in post #35, gilp.
For the record, 1st sentence in the abstract for Gordon's article: "The rise in American inequality has been exaggerated both in magnitude and timing."
The 1st sentence in Gordon's article itself: "The evidence is incontrovertible that American income inequality has increased in the United States since the 1970s."
Now can we get back to substance, please?
#35 Posted by TomHav, CJR on Sat 29 Oct 2011 at 03:04 PM
Well, there you go, the first sentence of the paper says exactly what CJR says it says. Truth from CJR, misdirection from conservative commentators. Par for the course.
#36 Posted by Erin, CJR on Sat 29 Oct 2011 at 03:21 PM
"Truth from CJR, misdirection from conservative commentators. Par for the course"...
Loser!
#37 Posted by juandos, CJR on Sat 29 Oct 2011 at 03:38 PM
Now can we get back to substance, please?
#37 Posted by TomHav on Sat 29 Oct 2011 at 03:04 PM
Tim, that is unfair to the wingnuts.
They don't have an argument based on substance.
~
#38 Posted by ifthethunderdontgetya™³²®©, CJR on Sat 29 Oct 2011 at 03:42 PM
As for this being "legitimate criticism of journalism", it definitely is.
Chittum is not asking for a one-sided screed against the wealthy, he's merely asking for the media - and yes, AEI counts as media - to examine the economy in a nuanced, fact-based perspective. AEI is pushing a viewpoint that is financed by their wealthy backers to submit a message that favors their interests - the very definition of being a hack.
He's merely calling them out.
And for those of you that remember AEI from "The Real World: San Francisco", when Rachel was debating with Judd, defending her support of Jack Kemp (pre-1996, so in a way, she was like a fan of an indie band before they broke out) and other groups like Empower America, nicely done.
As for the trashing of the actual analysis from many (or more than likely, one) reader, how does one become an apologist for the plutocrats? I hope they pay you well, because you are being used.
Conservatism wasn't always about knee-jerk defenses of the rich at all costs, evidence of inequality be damned.
In addition, it's ironic that the very same people crying "WORK! WORK! Then you'll make money, you poor losers!" are the same ones fighting efforts (like living wage ordinances, worker-safety laws, ability to collectively bargain, LGBT rights) to make work a worthwhile pursuit and not a "You could get fired at any time, so shut up and TAKE IT!" power-dynamic from hell.
Yet they scratch and claw to defend the elimination of the Inheritance Tax, something that affects a microscopic amount of the richest families in the country.
So let's do the list: laborers seeking a safer and more financially-beneficial workplace: Commies!
Privileged nobles that inherit massive amounts of wealth, whether they worked or not: Great Patriotic Americans!
What happened to enlightened conservatives like Thaddeus Stevens?
#39 Posted by Todd, CJR on Sat 29 Oct 2011 at 04:27 PM
For all the "Wealth inequality? So?" folks, you might want to study some basic economics. The U.S. economy, like anybody's economy, needs a big, financially stable middle class with strong buying power to produce a healthy, growing economy. One-thousand dollars in the hands of one rich family doesn't produce nearly as much productive economic bang as that same $1000 in the hands of ten middle class families. That's because those ten families are much more likely to spend that $1000 in ways that put others to work--putting spending money in those workers' pockets, and so on. Since wealth distribution has grown increasingly unequal over the past 30 years, the middle class today has much less disposable income to put to work in the economy than in 1979. Hence our steadily weaker economy over that same period, with each recovery from recession being weaker than the one before, and each "new-normal" more inhospitable to the great majority of Americans.
That income decay also crucially helped inflate the now-imploded credit bubble, as families struggled to maintain a middle-class lifestyle on less cash income. (For the first time ever in the U.S., the explosion in debt assumption in the 2000s coincided not with rising but with falling incomes.) The resulting debt overhang on millions of Americans is now the major reason for our ongoing middle (and poverty) class recession.
AND that same growing inequality--which the recession is severely aggravating--makes it that much more difficult for people to get out from under that debt load, and for even relatively debt-free folks to do much spending.
And so we, supposedly the greatest nation on Earth, slog along painfully through a self-inflicted semi-depression, with no real end in sight.
Other than that, there's nothing wrong with severe wealth inequality.
(Beyond being morally grotesque and profoundly anti-democratic, of course.)
#40 Posted by John, CJR on Sat 29 Oct 2011 at 04:38 PM
Are some of these posters serious in their critic of of this CJR author?
The title of the AEI article didn't say that income inequality increasing was exaggerated, the title says that income inequality rising is a myth. Meaning it is not happening.
The guy who wrote the AEI piece whose title claims income inequality increasing is a myth, references a research paper in which the author of the research paper makes known that income inequality is increasing.
All the author of the CJR critic did was point out how wrong the AEI article is for claiming that income inequality is a myth.
And the defense against this, is to write that the referenced research paper did stress that rising income inequality is exaggerated.
How in the minds of those raising this point is that a criticism of the author of this CJR article? He made no claims that income inequality increasing isn't exaggerated.
He only stressed that it is occurring, and that to write an article whose title claims that income inequality increasing is a myth, while referencing a paper that specifically says that income inequality is increasing is shoddy journalism, and destroys the credibility of any paper publishing such lies.
#41 Posted by iamme73, CJR on Sat 29 Oct 2011 at 04:40 PM
Having slogged a bit through Gordon's article it seems to me that he is focusing on the inequality between the growth of median incomes and the growth in productivity, and it is the exaggerated perceived inequality between these two kinds of growth that he takes on rather than arguing there are exaggerated perceptions in the growth of inequality between various income brackets. If correct, that means basically the AEI took an article out of context to support a preconceived position. How surprising.
#42 Posted by Paul, CJR on Sat 29 Oct 2011 at 04:58 PM
One of the things that our friends on the Right never talk about is how hard and often crummy the jobs are for those we cavalierly caall "the working poor". It is they who press three or four shirts a minute while working around toxic fumes, it is they who feed, burp, and change the diapers of our old in Nursing Homes that make Nursing Home owners rich, it is they who clean the clubs and restaurants that the wealthy and the rest of us love to go to and enjoy ourselves. And at the rate they make money, they will never be rich, nor do they enjoy any benefits, not even paid days off. In fact, if any of the defenders of the wealthy knew what they were talking about they would know that at the bottom, employers often require an employee who takes an unpaid day off to find his/her own replacement person when they do so, even if the employee is sick. Needless to say there is massive turnover, because there is a massive pool of unemplyed people who are looking for something/anything.
#43 Posted by tomcj, CJR on Sat 29 Oct 2011 at 05:34 PM
What is most disturbing and the clear link back to a Journalism Review article is the fact that the author, Petakoukis, has simply taken his skills as at best a Public Relations pitchman from Reuters/Thompson, notable for its right reactionary biases despite the pretense of dispassionate even-handedness. The revolving door of corruption that ensures lifetime sinecures for crooked politicians and government bureaucrats seems to work for journalists willing to sell the policies of the oligarchs mislabeled as journalism.
Newspaperman is simply a prima facie example of the corruption of the fourth estate as an American institution. The failure of American institutions to defend the interests of the majority of America's citizens is the fundamental reason for OWS and the reason that even the Tea Baggers see the wisdom of OWS. As an Egyptian supporter of OWS noted, the reason it is an occupation and not a protest is that there is no one to protest to, because the government, the military/intelligence/industrial complex, and the press are all serving the interests of the plutarchs identified in Citibank's plutarchy memo.
#44 Posted by Binky P. Behr, CJR on Sat 29 Oct 2011 at 05:54 PM
Isn't it lovely how the 1% show up on these threads exclaiming that, "hey, those commies want my money! hands off!" --> when in fact it's us 99% that should be (and now ARE thanks to OWS) screaming, "Give us our $700 billion back!"
"Look how much income various groups make today vs. how much they would be making if everyone's incomes, rich and poor alike, had grown at similar rates since 1979. As you can see, by 2005 the bottom 80% were collectively earning about $743 billion less per year while the top 1% were earning about $673 billion more. It's sort of uncanny how close those numbers are. For all practical purposes, every year about $700 billion in income is being sucked directly out of the hands of the poor and the middle class and shoveled into the hands of the rich."
http://motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2011/10/price-plutocracy-0
The 1 Percenters can be in denial all they want. Perhaps they'll wake up when their safety is in doubt in their gated communities. It's just a matter of time, people....it's going to happen quicker than anyone thought possible...
#45 Posted by Vinson, CJR on Sat 29 Oct 2011 at 07:04 PM
Vinson,
"...when their safety is in doubt..."
Are you going to lead the charge through the gate?
In skinny jeans?
#46 Posted by tao9, CJR on Sat 29 Oct 2011 at 08:15 PM
In response to some comments, I hope people remember that Capitaliam is an expoitative economic structure. Everyone cannot be rich, no matter how capable and educated a society may be. Without protections, the few will always expoit from the many. Why wouldn't they? It's the system, so the people's surplus labor needs to be protected.
#47 Posted by Bret, CJR on Sat 29 Oct 2011 at 09:38 PM
Man, usually it's me versus the three or so regular right wingers over here. The krugman link really brought out the hippie calvary. If this is what things are like in krugman's world (blog) he's got it pretty easy.
#48 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Sat 29 Oct 2011 at 10:02 PM
One more time, people...
In the last 30 years, the poorest fifth of Americans have gotten... Richer.
This undeniable, irrefutable fact-thingie is true even in terms of inflation-adjusted spending power.
PERIOD.
You guys are bitching because the welfare-sucking American "poor" (it is of course not possible for an adult to be involuntarily poor in this country, as the word "poor" is understood to mean elsewhere in the world) haven't made as much money as productive people have made in the last 30 years?
THIS is your big gripe? For real?
What's stopping anyone from getting rich in this country? Nothing. Anyone can work hard and make money. It just takes work, which is anathema to you newfangled commies. You guys have a collective congenital work allergy that renders you more willing to bang on drums and whine on Facebook than to paint houses, flip burgers or babysit kids..
You want wealth? Make some damned wealth instead of bitching and money to get the gubmint to steal other peoples' stuff for you. Do some damned work and you'll get some wealth.
See how easy?
#49 Posted by padikiller, CJR on Sat 29 Oct 2011 at 10:10 PM
So former Enron advisor and 1% multimillionaire Paul Krugman has linked to this thread and even taken a shot a me in doing so...
Too, too funny...
I was wondering what brought out the commies from afar.
This from the same guy who didn't have the stones to allow comments on his 9/11 whine.
Truly the "conscience of a liberal".
Well... I do agree with him that Social Security is a Ponzi scheme. And I also agree with his belief that low-paying jobs are better than no jobs at all.
But most of his nutsy "borrow and spend" silliness is absurd on its face.
#50 Posted by padikiller, CJR on Sat 29 Oct 2011 at 10:27 PM
"In the last 30 years, the poorest fifth of Americans have gotten... Richer.
This undeniable, irrefutable fact-thingie is true even in terms of inflation-adjusted spending power."
Except the neccesities of life such as health care, education, and home ownership have increased in cost, some about 6 times inflation, while salary gains, though exist, are negligible.
This is while bankruptcy law has been rewritten for the bankers, pensions have been raided for the bonuses of executives, financial rules have been rewritten for the hedge funds, trade rules have been rewritten for the outsourcers, and tax policy for the rich. And now you jack-off conservatives want to raid the entitlements to pay for your borrow and spend wars and further tax cuts.
Yeah. When you exclude all that and more, the bottom 90% have done just ducky.
#51 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Sat 29 Oct 2011 at 11:59 PM
Padikiller --> if you're going to make a claim, why waste our time without backing it up with a link. As far as I know, the only non-partisan referee in all of this is the CBO. Not sure if you're aware of this study that just came out:
http://www.cbo.gov/doc.cfm?index=12485
CBO finds that, between 1979 and 2007, income grew by:
"275 percent for the top 1 percent of households,
65 percent for the next 19 percent,
Just under 40 percent for the next 60 percent, and
18 percent for the bottom 20 percent."
Do we know why this disparity is so large, and do we care? Can you say tax cuts for the rich? Federal rates are the lowest they've been since the '50's, and Repugs think that's a good thing? Who wouldn't trade higher rates for the growth generated in the '50's-'60's, when there was a vibrant middle-class buying all the stuff the capitalists made. Henry Ford wanted his workers to make good money so they could buy his products. Helllllooooo! What's not to understand from all those Right-wingers on this thread want MORE income disparity?
The report also details this little factoid:
"The share of income going to higher-income households rose, while the share going to lower-income households fell.
The top fifth of the population saw a 10-percentage-point increase in their share of after-tax income.
Most of that growth went to the top 1 percent of the population.
All other groups saw their shares decline by 2 to 3 percentage points."
Tao9: From your lips to God's Ears! ha-ha...that's towards the "skinny jeans" comment...lol...But seriously, the 1 percenters on this thread really have no idea what's coming down the pike. It's in their interest to decrease the income disparity. But not unlike with Climate Change, we're probably too far gone to get out of this without serious civil unrest.
Make sure your gated communities are secured, fat cats. The 99% are coming for you...
#52 Posted by Vinson, CJR on Sun 30 Oct 2011 at 12:31 AM
i'm not arguing with anybody saying that this article is all correct, but the increases in median and bottom 20 income is surely adjusted for inflation, so the "what about how much more expensive everything got"-argument is redundant..that being said, there is an enormous amount of evidence that says that income inequality increased in the us since 1980..
the fact that conservatives here say something like "1: income inequality ha not grown" combined with "2: income inequality is fair"..why would you need to point out the 1st if the 2nd is true?
#53 Posted by Peter Aalen, CJR on Sun 30 Oct 2011 at 01:13 AM
It was opined above:
"when in fact it's us 99% that should be (and now ARE thanks to OWS) screaming, "Give us our $700 billion back!""
What we want back is not merely the $700B (which has largely been technically repaid, anyway) but the lost production and human suffering caused by the economic meltdown those bankers caused. That has been estimated at 5+ trillion and counting.
#54 Posted by Powers of ten, CJR on Sun 30 Oct 2011 at 01:29 AM
Vinson wrote: "CBO finds that, between 1979 and 2007, income grew by:
"275 percent for the top 1 percent of households, 65 percent for the next 19 percent, Just under 40 percent for the next 60 percent, and 18 percent for the bottom 20 percent."
padikiller responds: Right.. The people who did the most to increase wealth for EVERYBODY got the biggest raises, while the welfare-sucking, unproductive, mooching, overweight "poor" of America got a 18 percent raise (in terms of actual, inflation-adjusted spending power), courtesy of productive Americans.
Where is the "injustice" in this?
You commies need to suck up this R E A L I T Y and stop whining and get a damned JOB.
#55 Posted by padikiller, CJR on Sun 30 Oct 2011 at 08:43 AM
Peter Aalen wrote: " the fact that conservatives here say something like "1: income inequality ha not grown" combined with "2: income inequality is fair"..why would you need to point out the 1st if the 2nd is true?"
padikiller responds: Because they're not mutually exclusive.
You can say both "fewer people are smoking" and also "the relative percentage of poor people smoking has increased".
I don't think anyone is arguing that so-called "income inequality" hasn't increased in the last 30 years. The simple facts that the smart people are acknowledging are:
1. Despite the increase in "inequality" the truth is that ALL Americans, including the "poor" ones, have gotten richer in the last 30 years.
2. The purported "inequality" is being overstated by liberals.
3. Inequality (as long as it is not a permanent inequality like slavery, a caste system, or a commie/liberal engendered welfare-dependent underclass) is a GOOD thing in a free society - it means that people who work hardest, create the most or risk the most and thereby contribute the most to society are rewarded the most for their contributions, and it means that anyone who wants to work, create or risk has the ability to get rewarded. It also means that the ones who chose to suck up SSI and drink beer all day in their section 8 houses (or the ones who choose to bang on drums all day in a park) are rewarded least.
Inequality is an indicator of a free society. Income "equality" (gray government-issue suits and insufficient daily rice rations) is an indicator of a totalitarian, oppressive society.
Why don't you guys hop in and support Occupy Pyongyang? You know, where the top 1% of society lives in palaces, while the rest of the country starves?
And why don't you guys go march on 1% multimillionaire Paul Krugman's house (you know, the one he admitted he paid too much for with his Nobel money instead of donating it to charity)? Or why don't you march on George Soros' house (you know, the richest 1% billionaire in New York)?
HUH?
How did these guys escape your commie ire?
It's time to grow up, acknowledge the reality and you own hypocrisy, and get a damned job.
#56 Posted by padikiller, CJR on Sun 30 Oct 2011 at 09:10 AM
Vinson wrote: "Make sure your gated communities are secured, fat cats. The 99% are coming for you..."
padikiller responds: Like Hell they are...
You don't have 99%.. You don't have 1%. You have a ragtag assembly of a few spoiled, pasty white boys with nothing better to do than to waste their parent's money in this mess.
You guys couldn't revolt your way out of a wet paper bag with a razor knife and a flashlight.
The public doesn't support your commie nonsense.
This is just the REALITY. You can either deal with it or not. Either way it isn't going anywhere.
#57 Posted by padikiller, CJR on Sun 30 Oct 2011 at 09:16 AM
padikiller asked previously: "Who grows the economy more? The guy in jail? The mother of three who lives off of welfare? The guy who installs the spark plugs on a Ford assembly line? Or a guy like Steve Jobs?"
Thimbles responded ridiculously: "It's the guy who installs the spark plugs on a Ford assembly line."
padikiller replies: Yeah... The guy who installs spark plugs on the second shift in Sheboygan contributes more to the American economy than a guy who nearly single-handedly created, then saved, and then recreated a company that is today worth $375 billion and that employs more than 60,000 people.
You need to lay off the commie crack pipe, Thimbo.
#58 Posted by padikiller, CJR on Sun 30 Oct 2011 at 09:24 AM
Not mentioned in the articles cited here, but the burden of credit since the 1980's has fallen predominantly on the shoulders of the bottom 80%, credit needed to pay for housing, the second car so both family members can get to the jobs they MUST hold to keep up with their debt, for education (loans that aren't remediated if a bankruptcy ensues), medical costs in some cases... with flat or declining wages and lots of debt, the creditor class is making out much better on the backs of these folks, thank you very much. Credit held by the top 1% was something like 5% compared to 73% for the bottom.
Would like to see a review of Nouriel Roubini's, The Instability of Inequality, that appeared last week sometime. The historical context Roubini gives to our present problem makes OWS perfectly understandable in this revolutionary time. Having strong social-welfare systems in place to address workers rights, health care issues, education is a long recognized motivator of stability in societies. That the violence is coming overwhelmingly from those opposed to peaceful demonstrations in support of Equality speaks mountains as to the discomfort folks like padikiller feel about the movement or any analysis that supports the claims being made by OWS.
#59 Posted by sdemetri, CJR on Sun 30 Oct 2011 at 10:00 AM
Or, as a sign I saw yesterday held by an elderly woman in Portland, Maine:
There is NO advantage in having a HUGE underclass.
#60 Posted by sdemetri, CJR on Sun 30 Oct 2011 at 10:18 AM
Yeah.. The OWS crowd has everyone quaking in their boots, alright.
I was actually going to take my kids up to Manhattan to check it out, until I saw the webcams... Some "movement" this is. Looks like an extra tryout for a Lawrence Welk show retrospective. Ipads, lattes and Brooks Brothers all over that "massive" crowd that's keeping the markets closed on Wall Street.
Nobody is seriously worried about the OWS nutsos... Those guys can't even figure out amongst themselves what they want - Half of them want anarchy and the other half want to the polar opposite - totalinarianism.
I'm speaking truth to the "mainstream" liberal crowd in the context of the larger political debate that will culminate in the election next year that has the potential to define this country. Land of Opportunity? Or miserable, debt-laden Welfare State?
The fact of the matter is that we do indeed have a huge, dependent underclass - a product of 70 years of commie nonsense - that needs to be handled. Half of the country pays no federal income tax at all. You can't run a representative democracy this way.
And the problem is that these newfangled Starbucks commies don't want to do any work, like their old school Stalinist/Maoist commie progenitors did.
We're dealing with a class of people who would rather rob, loot, riot and even murder than work for a living. Time for a smackdown from Main Street.
You guys think you took a whacking last election? Just wait for this one. Absent any unforeseeable intervening huge event, Obama's toast, the Senate is GOP, and the House is 70-73% GOP, not to mention the state elections that will toss Dems like lettuce. And THIS is from the Democrats' predictions.
Time to wake up and smell the Reality Coffee, commies. Put down the bongos and pick up the spatulas. DO WORK.
#61 Posted by padikiller, CJR on Sun 30 Oct 2011 at 11:07 AM
"Time for a smackdown from Main Street."
Apparently you slept through the smackdown OF Main Street, dolt.
#62 Posted by sdemetri, CJR on Sun 30 Oct 2011 at 11:16 AM
Yeah... I must have slept through that Earth-shattering Main Street smackdown.
Cause from here in Walmart parking lot, nothing seems to have changed.
The Tea Party got things done. Tax cuts. Elections. Spending cuts.
The "Main Street smackdown" has accomplished.... What, exactly?
Anyone? Anyone?
Bueller?
#63 Posted by padikiller, CJR on Sun 30 Oct 2011 at 11:30 AM
Yep, Padi is a troll's troll folks. Nearly every piece on cjr which threatens his banker/lawyer circle jerk he disrupts with his "commie" shitck. As him about global warming sometime, I dare you.
And If you're wondering why it seems familiar, no it's not déjà vu:
http://www.alternet.org/media/149197/are_right-wing_libertarian_internet_trolls_getting_paid_to_dumb_down_online_conversations/?page=entire
"Reading comment threads on the Guardian’s sites and elsewhere on the web, two patterns jump out at me. The first is that discussions of issues in which there’s little money at stake tend to be a lot more civilized than debates about issues where companies stand to lose or gain billions: such as climate change, public health and corporate tax avoidance. These are often characterized by amazing levels of abuse and disruption...
The second pattern is the strong association between this tactic and a certain set of views: pro-corporate, anti-tax, anti-regulation. Both traditional conservatives and traditional progressives tend be more willing to discuss an issue than these right-wing libertarians, many of whom seek instead to shut down debate."
And yeah, there's about three of them here. Luckily it usually only takes a single unassuming thimble to show truth to stupid.
#64 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Sun 30 Oct 2011 at 11:37 AM
"Yeah... The guy who installs spark plugs on the second shift in Sheboygan contributes more to the American economy than a guy who nearly single-handedly created, then saved, and then recreated a company that is today worth $375 billion and that employs more than 60,000 people."
Oookay, so Steve Jobs was the one who the 14 trillion dollar economy rests upon. Didn't know that. I guess we should step all over the middle class since, hey, what do they make anyway. It's not like being on an assembly line is WORK. Pushing papers and being frauds like Padi and his lawyer buds, that's work.
And why should people who work have to pay taxes?
#65 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Sun 30 Oct 2011 at 11:55 AM
To the troll, Padkiller:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0XrcuZuSJi4
Wait for it at the end...he's talking about you, bro.
#66 Posted by Vinson, CJR on Sun 30 Oct 2011 at 12:12 PM
Now THIS is too, too funny...
Thimbles... WHO here has called for censorship of this forum?
You and your commie brethren, that's who.
How about this comment from your buddy, James?:
"Just curious.Are you and your colleagues okay with these trolls pissing all over your threads every day, talking and berating -- even stalking and threatening -- your commenters with their tiresome, senseless ad hominem attacks?
You know, it doesn't reflect well on Columbia Journalism Review and you fine journalists when you allow this kind of internet thuggery to hijack your site and shut down any semblance of rational discussion. Just like CNN helplessly allows rightwing talking heads to hijack debate by talking louder and more aggressively over the anchors, you are allowing the same thing here, in some kind of misguided notion of "free speech" you are actually killing it by allowing it to continue."
To which you had this to add, Thimbles:
"I don't know, i'm a free speech guy but it gets a little tedious dealing with the guy who spams know-nothing "you're all a bunch of commies" rants instead of adds for new boots."
http://www.cjr.org/the_audit/jobs_plan_or_stimulus.php
You will not find any call for censorship, nor will you find any tacit support of cnesorship from me here. PERIOD. And you will not find any threat of any kind from me. PERIOD. This is just the R E A L I T Y.
Any claims to the contrary or nothing but whiny commie lies.
Moving on.
And as for your kooky "paid troll" crack dream.... Get therapy, Thimbo.
While it is unquestionably true that ACORN 2.0 is hiring homeless people to "protest" and fund-raise for this OWS silliness, I am a volunteer Realityist, just doing my part to keep it real, here.
And turning to the "global warming" nonsense.... I'm just using "Mike's Nature Trick" to "hide the decline", dude. It's science!
How many inches of Global Warming did you guys get at the OWS Hissy Fit this morning?
#67 Posted by padikiller, CJR on Sun 30 Oct 2011 at 12:24 PM
"Yeah... I must have slept..." the sleep of zombies, and their zombie dreams:
http://delong.typepad.com/sdj/2011/09/against-zombie-macroeconomics-one-more-time.html
That must be it.
#68 Posted by sdemetri, CJR on Sun 30 Oct 2011 at 12:32 PM
LOL
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=tsJPKMvWDmY
¡Viva la Revolución!
The "rich" had better bar the doors!
#69 Posted by padikiller, CJR on Sun 30 Oct 2011 at 01:09 PM
Oh so you're against censorship eh? Good then you won't mind inviting the dumbest of OWS protesters to come to your house shouting "eat the rich" via bullhorn while you finish your morning expresso. And if they shit in your bed, well that's just a commentary on how lawyers and bankers like you shit the bed of the American economy and nothing's more free speech than art, HUH?!
The people who own and operate this site don't require to put up with you. The 1st ammendment stops at someone else's front door, HUH?!
So if you're just going to post repetitive abusive nonsense, clearing it isn't censorship. It's taking out the trash.
#70 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Sun 30 Oct 2011 at 01:35 PM
Now THERE's the true Thimbles!
Nothing like a little Reality to bring out the true commie colors!
#71 Posted by padikiller, CJR on Sun 30 Oct 2011 at 01:51 PM
I see 1% (net worth= $50 million) Michael Moore turned up at the Occupy Oakland Hissy.
He's gonna need the three man tent and some extra attention from the chow line, fellas. Up twinkles for his Twinkies, guys.
Funny... I thought he was shooting down to Havana for his gastric bypass surgery.
#72 Posted by padikiller, CJR on Sun 30 Oct 2011 at 02:07 PM
What's a "commie"?
#73 Posted by N W Barcus, CJR on Sun 30 Oct 2011 at 02:40 PM
A commie is someone who thinks he's entitled to other people's property.
#74 Posted by padikiller, CJR on Sun 30 Oct 2011 at 03:10 PM
"Nothing like a little Reality to bring out the true commie colors!"
Ye see, I thought it was it was commies like paidkiller who didn't respect the rules of private property. It's not your website. Your posts are kept at the owner's discretion. Any true capitalist/libertarian would know and respect that.
But comrade Paidkiller is a bit of special case.
#75 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Sun 30 Oct 2011 at 03:14 PM
padikiller, your definition of a communist makes every worker just before payday a communist, since he feels entitled to the property of someone else. Do I see that correct?
#76 Posted by gilp, CJR on Sun 30 Oct 2011 at 04:07 PM
Wages earned aren't the property of someone else. By operation of law and contract they are legally cognizable claims to title of funds. Wages earned are the property of the owner, held in trust by employers.
But in the greater scheme of things, this example is illustrative. A worker is entitled to wages, but not to ownership of the factory. Thus, if an employer fails to pay wages, the worker has a valid legal claim, but no right of self-help - that is, no right to seize the employer's property. This worker can seek remedies in administrative and judicial forums, where the deadbeat employer can be sanctioned.
It's an interesting example, but a moot point in the context of the current conversation, since working for a living is anathema to commies and the likelihood of any of them earning wages is decidedly slim.
#77 Posted by padikiller, CJR on Sun 30 Oct 2011 at 04:17 PM
We're moving a little far afield from the topic of the article.
Returning thusly, please understand that in the last 30 years... ALL Americans, including the unproductive, welfare-sucking lowest quintile of Americans, have gotten RICHER in terms of actual spending power.
Witness the power of free market capitalism, people!
#78 Posted by padikiller, CJR on Sun 30 Oct 2011 at 04:21 PM
padikill demondtrates the typical fascist abuse and flaming bs, and trolling for lulz.
#79 Posted by edgar, CJR on Sun 30 Oct 2011 at 05:58 PM
"Wages earned aren't the property of someone else. By operation of law and contract they are legally cognizable claims to title of funds. Wages earned are the property of the owner, held in trust by employers."
Thanks to bankers and business failures, millions of workers are having to go to court to get a fraction of the wages they earned.
#80 Posted by edgar, CJR on Sun 30 Oct 2011 at 06:16 PM
Yeah.. Millions of them...
Right...
#81 Posted by padikiller, CJR on Sun 30 Oct 2011 at 06:36 PM
Trying to stay on-topic here...
Income inequality is a GOOD thing. It means that society is most rewarding the people who grow the economy the most.
You want income equality? Cuba and North Korea have it.
#82 Posted by padikiller, CJR on Sun 30 Oct 2011 at 06:51 PM
"Returning thusly, please understand that in the last 30 years... ALL Americans, including the unproductive, welfare-sucking lowest quintile of Americans, have gotten RICHER in terms of actual spending power."
Except, as I mentioned before when you blubbered this before, in the ways that they haven't.
http://dshort.com/inflation/CPI-categories-since-2000.html?CPI-categories-plus-college-tuition-since-2000
State and federal programs have been cut, costs to consumers for certain necessities have increased, and the meagre, very meagre increases in wages for many render these necessities unaffordable for most single income families and more than a few duel income.
In other words, your point is dumb.
Is there a famine? Is there a plague? Is there a civil conflict we don't know about? Is America so truly impoverished that it ignores everyone below the upper brackets of its society out of circumstance or out of choice?
A society that cannot provide the necessities, not the luxuries- just necessities, of life to all under its protection is an embarrassment.
#83 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Sun 30 Oct 2011 at 07:00 PM
When the biggest health problem facing the "poor" of America is obesity, Thimbles, there is no problem. Even the "poorest" Americans have gotten richer in the last 30 years in terms of INFLATION ADJUSTED DOLLARS.
Your argument is specious.
No one (except the disabled) is entitled to "basic necessities" on somebody else's nickel. You don't have the right to Snickers bars. Or Band-Aids. Or I-pads. Or tuition. I know it drives commies nuts to hear it, but you aren't entitled to other people's stuff and you aren't entitled to other people's labor.
You don't have the right to force anyone to care for you, unless you are unable (as opposed to merely unwilling) to do so on your own.
People who truly can't take care of themselves should be cared for in government institutions. People who won't care for themselves should hit the road or get a damned job.
Again... I know you don't like hearing that the Money Fairy can't drop Snickers Bars and Red Bulls on the population with magic, like you commies think she can.
Speaking of which, the OWS crowd is a perfect example of disaffected youth who wants what, exactly (besides other people's stuff)? Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness? Liberté, égalité, fraternité? Zemlya i Volya?
This whole Hissy Fit is nothing but an alternative to working for a living.
Get a job.
#84 Posted by padikiller, CJR on Sun 30 Oct 2011 at 10:01 PM
Seems to me the growth in Business income is a direct result of the popularity of "S" corporations. The past 30 years has seen a huge growth in small and medium companies and that is reflected in the business income statistic.
#85 Posted by roarkarchitect, CJR on Mon 31 Oct 2011 at 02:38 AM
"No one (except the disabled) is entitled to "basic necessities" on somebody else's nickel. You don't have the right to Snickers bars. Or Band-Aids. Or I-pads. Or tuition. I know it drives commies nuts to hear it, but you aren't entitled to other people's stuff and you aren't entitled to other people's labor."
Did your money pay for the roads you drive? Did it pay for your air to be clean, your water to be drinkable, your food to be checked? Did you foot the whole bill for your elementary to high school graduate education? These are things from which the whole benefits and therefore the whole supports by law. I am entitled to the basic necessities of life, as are you, as is my child, as is your wife.
We are entitled to benefit from the policies of the governments we elect. If, as a society, we decide to create a solution to a problem the society cannot tolerate, then yes we are entitled to the resources to implement that solution which will come from the society's labor. If you feel the society's rules are an unjust imposition, then go live on an island where you'll suffer none of society's burdens, and get none of its benefits either. Otherwise pay your society dues and quit being a whining free loader, like Ayn Rand or Hayek.
#86 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Mon 31 Oct 2011 at 04:01 AM
Newspaperman, since when is fact-checking a "leftist political idea?" Journalists aren't allowed to do that anymore?
#87 Posted by Dean Starkman, CJR on Mon 31 Oct 2011 at 04:29 AM
I think padi has a fetish with the word commie, since that is all he ever really says.
#88 Posted by sergio, CJR on Mon 31 Oct 2011 at 05:10 AM
"Commie" is what fascists call people that they hate.
Here's the story of Trolls ....
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/03/magazine/03trolls-t.html?pagewanted=all
#89 Posted by edgar, CJR on Mon 31 Oct 2011 at 10:32 AM
Padkiller is trolling hard.
The reality is that more and more working Americans are falling behind. The SSA released wage information and the median wage is a little over $26,000 dollars a year. Nearly two-thirds of all wage earners make less than $39,950.
To pretend that addressing this inequality is a choice between communism or a free market economy is nonsense.
In this nation's history, we had less income inequality for decades. Were we a communist nation is the 40's, 50's, 60's and 70's?
This exploding income inequality is in part the direct result of public policy choices of our federal government and state governments that favor the richest Americans.
Instead of talking about those public policy choices and the consequences of those policies that favor the wealthy over other Americans, Republicans want to attack working American's 66% of whom don't earn $39,950.
#90 Posted by iamme73, CJR on Mon 31 Oct 2011 at 10:37 AM
I see much discussion of how the bottom three quintiles also got "richer" since 1979. Neither the post nor any of the comments (that I saw--didn't read every word though, so apologies if I missed it) mentions that most, if not all, of the increased income for the bottom three quintiles came from working more hours.
Get it? They're (we're) doing MORE WORK.
And they do it because they are compelled to. There's been much written about this; it's not controversial (outside of wingnut enclaves), nor is the idea that more work becomes, at some point, damaging to the social fabric.
Of course, since 2008 or so the MORE WORK option has disappeared for a large segment of the population. Hence the various whinings and protests. But leave it.
On a per-hour basis, median incomes, adjusted for inflation, have since 1975 certainly fallen for at least the bottom two quintiles.
That this fact is regarded anywhere as somehow "leftist" is indicative of confused thinking.
#91 Posted by Edward Ericson Jr., CJR on Mon 31 Oct 2011 at 02:18 PM
roarkarchitect wrote: Seems to me the growth in Business income is a direct result of the popularity of "S" corporations.
padikiller responds: This is an interesting point. I wonder what impact the S-corp/LLC trend has had in stimulating business income?
#92 Posted by padikiller, CJR on Mon 31 Oct 2011 at 03:27 PM
Edward wrote: "Neither the post nor any of the comments (that I saw--didn't read every word though, so apologies if I missed it) mentions that most, if not all, of the increased income for the bottom three quintiles came from working more hours."
padikiller tolls the Reality Bell: "Adults in the lowest quintile work an average of only 14.4 hours per week, less than one-half of a typical 40 hour workweek. By contrast, adults in the top quintile work an average of 34.6 hours per week".
http://www.thefreemanonline.org/featured/working-family-gibberish/
More work, more pay... Whoda thunkit?
The census data is here:
http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/cpstables/032011/hhinc/new05_000.htm
So here is the real deal:
Only 6.4% of the lowest 20% of income earners have full-time jobs. That's right. 6.4%.
P I T I F U L.
Time to get to work, mooches.
#93 Posted by padikiller, CJR on Mon 31 Oct 2011 at 03:51 PM
iamme73 wrote: "In this nation's history, we had less income inequality for decades. Were we a communist nation is the 40's, 50's, 60's and 70's?"
padikiller responds: No, we were a P R O D U C T I V E nation. We made things and exported things. The best cars in the world. The best televisions. The only computers. Etc.
Labor is worth more in a productive economy.
Now don't get me wrong. The commies and I share some common ground. I stated here years ago that Bush should have been impeached over the bailouts and I state here now that Obama should be impeached for them also.
You know what would fix all this speculation on Wall Street? Letting the investors fall on their asses when their investments crash.
The commies and I part ways when it comes to government intervention. For some reason, commies believe that the government can fix the markets and run them better than free people can in a free market. Not even Marx was stupid enough to believe this silliness.
You look at every single financial scandal in recent history and you will see a failure of regulation. Regulations were in place to prevent the scandal, and regulators failed to do their jobs. Nonetheless, the commie solution to our economic woes is more regulation and more regulators.
#94 Posted by padikiller, CJR on Mon 31 Oct 2011 at 04:02 PM
Thimbles wrote: Did your money pay for the roads you drive? Did it pay for your air to be clean, your water to be drinkable, your food to be checked? Did you foot the whole bill for your elementary to high school graduate education? These are things from which the whole benefits and therefore the whole supports by law. I am entitled to the basic necessities of life, as are you, as is my child, as is your wife.
padikiller responds: Roads are owned by governments, not by people. I am NOT entitled to take up residence on a piece of I-95 and use it as I see fit. Nor can I fence off a river. Similarly, I am NOT entitled to a Snickers bar at the expense of the taxpayers.
Commies insist on the existence of personal rights that are antithetical to a free society.
Look at the Bill of Rights. What do these fundamental rights have in common? They are all limitations on government. They keep the government out of your life. Out of your house. Out of your papers. Out of your pockets. They keep the government from taking your liberty or your life without due process. They keep the government from taking your gun. They keep the government from punishing you in a cruel or unusual manner. Etc. Etc.
There is no fundamental "right" to force other people to give you stuff. No "right" to force somebody to educate you or to give you medical treatment.
All of these so-called personal "rights" are creatures of commie legislation enacted over the last 80 years that needs to be repealed (and that will be repealed, soon enough, the way the political winds are blowing).
This juvenile commie dependency is ruining this country. Time to shake the bed and put the lazy, whiny commies to work!
If we can restore free enterprise of yesterday, while correcting the mistakes of yesterday (like racial prejudice, environmental pollution and anti-competitive manipulation of the markets), we'll be once again the greatest economy in the world.
#95 Posted by padikiller, CJR on Mon 31 Oct 2011 at 04:37 PM
Padi: "Labor is worth more in a productive economy."
Lemme get this straight. You're trying to pin lower compensation for the poor and middle class on a less productive economy? Well you can't. Employee productivity (defined as the amount of GDP produced per hour worked) has been steadily rising for centuries. Even the great recession hasn't halted the trend. Americans show up for work, create value, and take a share of that value home. Only since the mid-seventies, we've been taking home an ever-smaller slice of that created value.
http://rwer.wordpress.com/2011/01/27/graph-of-the-week-u-s-productivity-and-median-hourly-compensation-growth-1995-2007/
The United States wasn't a socialist country in 1970, and yet we had a much fairer distribution of wealth than we do today. If we had the same distribution that we did back in the 1970s, the median income would be $12,000 higher than it is today (while the rich would have still gotten far richer).
#96 Posted by Bryce, CJR on Tue 1 Nov 2011 at 03:29 AM
I find it quite hilarious that a blog about "strong press" resorts to strawman arguments. Does Pethokoukis say income inequality doesn't exist? No. Yet half your article goes about as if he did.
You then complain about cherry picking quotes, by cherry picking quotes. According to the Goron paper inequality had a negative growth from 2000-2007, something you "ignore" going by your criteria.
#97 Posted by Zaggs, CJR on Tue 1 Nov 2011 at 10:19 AM
Padikiller, true you haven't the right to squat on I-95, but you have the right to squat behind the protection of the state-funded police force (that would be nanny-state to you), the force that protects you from being eaten alive by the jobless-by-choice commie mobs that bedevil you. Is this "dependency" of yours a "mistake of yesterday" that you would like to see remedied?
#98 Posted by Manford, CJR on Tue 1 Nov 2011 at 12:50 PM
Padikiller, true you haven't the right to squat on I-95, but you have the right to squat behind the protection of the state-funded police force (that would be nanny-state to you), the force that protects you from being eaten alive by the jobless-by-choice commie mobs that bedevil you. Is this "dependency" of yours a "mistake of yesterday" that you would like to see remedied?
#99 Posted by Manford, CJR on Tue 1 Nov 2011 at 12:52 PM
The comments here are hilarious. Instead of considering inflation and taxes, the Democrat response appears to be "He's rich, it doesn't matter." Let's assume, as a hypothetical, that a rich person's income goes up by $1 million, but inflation costs him an additional $1 million, and taxes cost him an additional $1 million. In this hypothetical, for a poor person, assume all three factors remain unchanged.
The rich person just lost $1 million of disposable income, effectively, while the poor person is in exactly the same situation as before. Yet liberals on this site and elsewhere would shriek about "Income inequality! The rich are making even more! The gap between rich and poor is growing!" When in reality, we know that income inequality actually just decreased.
That's why inflation and taxes matter. They can't be disregarded, like all the liberals here are doing.
Rich people's incomes have increased faster over the past few decades, but so has their inflation, and so have their taxes. Those factors must be considered.
#100 Posted by David, CJR on Tue 1 Nov 2011 at 01:31 PM
There are presently approx 2 million job positions open. If they were ALL filled from the ranks of unemployed, there would still be 10 million unemployed workers. Capitalism NEVER employess every worker! Bush may have PROMISED jobs for everyone, but he was ignorant about economics - under Bush and his welfare for millionaires, unemployemnet went from 4% to 6%, then to 8% when he left the disaster for Democrats to clean up.
Businesses slash wages and throw workers into the street - Wall Street has crippled America and sabotaged the furure of this nation.
#101 Posted by edgar, CJR on Tue 1 Nov 2011 at 02:49 PM
James Pethokoukis and the right-wing ilk seem to make ONE single argument: that multi-millionaires have milion and more millions of dollars, and THAT proves they are entitled to it.
Yes, ENTITLED. They basically are saying that every "Bernie Madoff" theft is legal, because people gave their money voluntarily.
#102 Posted by edgar, CJR on Tue 1 Nov 2011 at 03:01 PM
Manford:
Yeah... Those OWS crowds terrify me.
Get a job.
#103 Posted by padikiller, CJR on Tue 1 Nov 2011 at 05:32 PM
@padikiller
Don't worry about the OWS folks. Worry about a whole different and less high minded - but much larger - group of hungry folks later in the decade from now - people whose anger and irrational fear/hate I won't like any more than you do. People who are literally hungry as the system comes apart, frustrated by not having jobs available (your "get a job" attitude will NOT go down well with somebody who has seriously tried for years), and possibly armed.
I'm somewhere in the middle quintile and I'm not complaining - my concern is about greed tearing this country apart. There may come a time when even you see the OWS folks a the canary in the coal mine which you ignored, and when you wish the current "lower class" was as reasonable and "liberal" as OWS.
Maybe I'm wrong. I really, really hope so in fact. But I suspect that beneath your bluster, even you have some inkling that the world could turn pretty nasty, and if it does you may not be able to isolate yourself from it - your job too may go down the tubes from cascading effects of a dysfunctional economy, your neighborhood may not be as safe or fun. When your industry is failing so you can't find another job and your mortgage is overdue and your health care is cancelled and even going "private enterprise" with a taco cart loses money - you may even wind up among the angry dangerous hungry yourself, rechanneling your current anger.
I don't threaten those things - in fact my main goal is to PREVENT them - but I think you are isolating yourself in a dream world which come back to bite you. Yes, there exist "welfare queens" and lazy people - but if you think that's the full problem, you are seriously out of touch - you need to cultivate a wider variety of friends, outside the bubble.
And - I really hope you are right, and the bottom quintiles don't drop below the "enough food on the table" level. (Remember that the 18% income increase over 30 years you think should satisfy them, is pretty fragile and may turn into a substantial decrease if the world economy tanks further. It will be interesting to see if most of that 18% cumulative gain came decades ago - are the even keeping even more recently?) As long as people have food, it won't get too nasty, I hope.
I remembers the words of a poor (and hard working) man in Latin America years ago - along the lines of (translated): "You American have funny ideas about violent and non-violent change. When your children are sick and dying for lack of food and medicines the rich have for their dogs, you are already suffering from violence, and you won't always stop at peaceful marches".
So we can tolerate income and wealth disparity - until the bottom quintiles go below subsistence andyelling "get a job!" inspires a brick or a gunshot rather than angry blog posts. At that point, even the 1% will be in trouble too.
#104 Posted by Zeph, CJR on Sat 5 Nov 2011 at 02:15 AM
@david #100
Sorry, but making up hypothetical numbers in the way you do sheds no insight. 1 millon on top of how many millions? Why would you expect inflation to grow faster than income from the rich? And taxes have gone down for the rich, not up! During the 50s (when by the way, the economy was growing much more rapidly than recent decades), the top income tax bracket in the US was over 90%, the top 1%'s share of income or wealth was much lower than now. Business executives were at least as smart and hard working - and more effective. There was a differential, and working harder on the whole paid off (it wasn't socialistic, just rational and vigrorous capitalism) - but the differential was not absurdly large. This left more money for the middle and lower classes, which kept the factories working because they had customers. Economically, the country was much healthier when the disparity was smaller; there's really no doubt about what the numbers show.
US jobs increased under Clinton (who modestly increased taxes) and shrank under Bush (who decreased them). Basically, many of your articles of faith about how economics and income disparity work are myths. Some income disparity fosters a work ethic; too much disparity does not.
#105 Posted by Zeph, CJR on Sat 5 Nov 2011 at 02:32 AM
This is a good article and appears to have sound stats showing increased income inequality in this country. I would whole heartedly agree after reading Stiglitz. We already know there are huge wealth inequalities in this country which most consider "ok" because that's the way it is.
But if you query any right wing website, you soon find ideology trumps facts and statistics. They really lie about the existience of inequality. They don't deny it, they "justify" it. They equate those who are poor and stupid under capitalism as "lazy" who got their just desserts. Conversely, they equate the "rich" with those who are smart and "deserving" of their riches. Both are equated with "freedom."
The right's beliefs are really the province of small minds. Black and white. Single cause and effect. No "messy" grey. They are incapable of seeing the big picture, that as a nation competing under global capitalism, a growing population increasingly being left out of meaningful participation under global capitalism is a waste of human resources--something the nation cannot afford to tolerate. Further, the adverse effects of global capitalism must be cushioned by effective government policy--something the right denies; but as they do so, the country continues to decay.
Forward
George DeMarse
#106 Posted by George DeMarse, CJR on Fri 29 Jun 2012 at 11:44 AM