In a time when millions of American workers can’t find work, it’s only natural to be intrigued by counterintuitive stories that claim American companies can’t find workers. I like to imagine the newsroom conversations go something like this:
EDITOR: Meh. I’ve read 10,000 stories on how Americans can’t find work, Scoop. Find me some news.
REPORTER: Well, say, what about a story on the handful of companies who can’t find workers to do skilled labor at the wage the companies want to pay with no training? Whaddya say, Chief?
EDITOR: Now you’re talking, kid. Get me thirty inches by Friday. Now scram, see!
Today, it’s the Washington Post’s turn to jump on this meme. It reports that manufacturers are having a hard time finding workers to work. Here’s the classically counterintuitive lede:
HOLLAND, Mich. — This stretch of the Rust Belt might seem like an easy place to find factory workers.
Unemployment hovers above 9 percent. Foreign competition has thrown many out of work. It is a platitude that this industrial hub, like the country itself, needs more manufacturing work.
But as the 2012 presidential candidates roam the state offering ways to “bring the jobs back,” many manufacturers say that, in fact, the jobs are already here.
What’s missing are the skilled workers needed to fill them.
What’s going on here? The Post writes that the laid-off workers don’t know how to operate newfangled machinery and that Baby Boomers are retiring but younger generations “have avoided the manufacturing sector because of the volatility and stigma of factory work, as well as perceptions that U.S. manufacturing is a ‘dying industry.’”
I have another way to put that: These young folks don’t want to spend a lot of money and time training to do a specific job they might not get only to get laid off when some private-equity slicks (where the real money’s at) buy out the company and ship the jobs to China.
That’s what happens when owners and management have shredded the social contract. They find workers can’t or won’t do what they need them to. A flexible workforce has its downsides too.
Peter Capelli, a Wharton professor, wrote this in The Wall Street Journal a few months ago on why the “can’t find workers” meme is bogus, and how apprenticeships have almost disappeared from the U.S.:
Companies in other countries do things differently. In Europe, for instance, training is often mandated, and apprenticeships and other programs that help provide work experience are part of the infrastructure.The result: European countries aren’t having skill-shortage complaints at the same level as in the U.S., and the nations that have the most established apprenticeship programs—the Scandinavian nations, Germany and Switzerland—have low unemployment.
Wouldn’t you know it, the Post reports that “the shortage has forced firms to adopt new tactics,” that include apprenticeships and training programs. But these aren’t new tactics at all, much less “forced” ones. They’re how companies always operated until they decided to offload the costs of these programs onto the public sector and onto individuals in the last few decades.
You could almost say companies these days don’t have the employin’ skills they used to.
The training angle is critical if you accept the premise of the story, but I don’t think that you should. After all, the businesspeople quoted here know how a market works. If you put out a want ad for something and you don’t find it, you need to think about upping your bid.
The Post tells us, for instance, that one company in Holland, Michigan, has been looking for a welder for a few months. Here’s a job (not necessarily the same one) there that pays $14 to $16 an hour, about $30,000 a year, and it’s not for an entry-level position. And welders have to go to school too and pay for it, mind you. Perhaps $16 to $20 an hour would do the trick. How much money has the Post’s company lost by not paying a market-clearing wage?
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Speaking from experience, most of those dotcom-boom IT positions required a mindset closer to "street smart" than "book smart". A four-year IT degree will most likely not help you much in testing software. An intuition for the weak spots in software and the experience of having written and debugged a medium-size program or two will. A two-year degree teaches you to set up a server on a network. A low-grade paranoia teaches you to lock that puppy down tight enough to keep unwelcome visitors out. Though the increased automation of programming and computing/network equipment has tamed the frontier a little, as it were, computing is still more art than science.
While there are few who would opt for someone self-taught performing surgery on them, it's unproductive or even counterproductive to turn down the self-taught programmer or sysadmin (or digital artist, or account manager) merely due to a lack of credentials, assuming that one is more interested in a worker getting the job done well than looking corporate enough in a cubicle.
#1 Posted by Jonathan, CJR on Tue 21 Feb 2012 at 10:43 PM
They’re how companies always operated until they decided to offload the costs of these programs onto the public sector and onto individuals in the last few decades.
Sorry Ryan, but thats not how companies "always operated", thats just a load of garbage. Way back in the day high schools used to actually teach technical vocations and solid fundamentals. Kids would spend time in shop class learning the basics of machining, welding, carpentry, measuring etcetera but the push for the past 40 years is to put every kid in college. Entry level blue collar candidates that I have seen in my industry and at some of my various employers have come to us not only without basic technical knowledge but thier lack of basic skills is frightening. For those who actually passed a drug screening, not only do they not possess a trade, but they dont even possess the basic skills that every high school student should know: how to read a ruler, adding fractions, compute an angle, basic algerbra and trig, even elementary reading comprehension seem completely lost on them.
Companies cannot ill afford to train an unskilled worker who is at least marginally well educated for a complex industrial skill. The can and often do when pressed, but when they have to teach these kids what an equilateral triangle is its no wonder they hire older competent workers even if they might only be able to get a handfull of years out of them.
And there certainly is a stigma to blue collar work in this country. When's the last time you heard of a high school guidance conselor telling one of his students that he probably didnt need to go to college and that if he took a 2 year vocational training course over at the local community college he could have a decent job at the local chemical plant? Why is it that local retailers have little problem filling positions when industrial employers that pay far more go for months with vacancies ?It seems that we have a mismatch in what our education system is providing and what the job market needs.
All the while management scratches its heads and wonders where all of its property taxes go (oh, thats right, pensions)
Dont worry though, all those psyche, communication, and history majors are sure to be willing work with thier hands after spending a few years living with moms and pops.
#2 Posted by Mike H, CJR on Tue 21 Feb 2012 at 10:51 PM
"Why is it that local retailers have little problem filling positions when industrial employers that pay far more go for months with vacancies ?It seems that we have a mismatch in what our education system is providing and what the job market needs. "
Probably since those retail employers will train employees instead of expecting them to train themselves on their own dime and time like the industrial employers.
#3 Posted by Amanda E., CJR on Wed 22 Feb 2012 at 02:32 AM
In Chittumland, the solution to any societal problem is always the same...
Workers get more money, owners get less money.
The "owners and management have shredded the social contract"?
WTF?
So now we're mingling Locke and Marx? Damn, Ryan.. You have both of them flipping in their graves!
Sweet JEEBUS, this is such stupidity!
If employers just arbitrarily dump ten or twenty grand more in wages, then according to Ryan, the Welding Fairy will sprinkle Welding Skill Dust upon the candidates and all will be good in the world.
Sure our products will be uncompetitive. Sure investors will put capital elsewhere (like in the pockets of our competitors). Sure tax revenue will decrease as profits decrease... Sure monkeying with market forces will slow the economy... But what the Hell!..
Our noble proletariat will be earning above-market wages until the factory closes down.
This kind of silly, commie nonsense has failed everywhere it's been tried.
The problem with our society is that the American working class has become the American non-working class.
And unions are every bit as much to blame for this situation as management is.
#4 Posted by padikiller, CJR on Wed 22 Feb 2012 at 07:24 AM
I went to Chittumland once. Oddest theme park EVER. I rode the AJLieblingcoaster and went inside Dean Starkman's House 'O Financial Press Horrors.
As I was leaving I noticed that right across the highway somebody had built a place called JoeMcCarthyWorld (I've since read media accounts of the place and if they are to be believed -- and who can believe the Soros-lapdog lefty media exploiters? -- it's a funhouse-type operation where anything that doesn't fit a certain notion of how the world works is immediately labeled Card-Carrying Commie/Hippie/Socialist/Pinko Propaganda. Then they take away your Fun Tickets and forbid you from entering the John Birch Forest and seeing the beautifully mesmerizing fiberglass trees).
#5 Posted by wallyworld, CJR on Wed 22 Feb 2012 at 10:39 AM
@wallyworld
There is the fact that McCarthy was right - as declassified Soviet files prove, most of the people on his infamous list were indeed legitimate security risks.
However, your point is well-taken. Both sides have problems.
I can respect good ole Communism. Gulags. Forced labor. A new five year plan every three months. A new constitution every year. 6000 lb Fiat knock-offs, Reeducation camps, Etc. Etc. Etc. I can respect, if not agree with, such a system as long as it acknowledged that such a system is inherently inefficient and more costly than free market capitalism.
It's one thing to believe that the commie Robiin Hood redistribution of wealth is a just and desirable social end. Just acknowledge its inherent inefficiency and its proven inability to compete with free market economies. That's all I ask.
Lenin acknowledged it and Russia finally accepted it. So did China. And now, so is Cuba. North Korea tacitly acknowledges it.
And Brother, are the Euro's getting a painful and practical lesson now.
So, just admit the REALITY that the only way the commie thing can work for any length of time is at gunpoint, and I'm good.
You can't really argue over the emotional deal - whether or not wearing government-issue brown suits, living in a government-built concrete flat and eating a government-supplied rice ration is a "good" or "bad" thing. Some like the idea, though most Americans don't. The only difference between North Korea's government and the one advocated by many of the CJR-ites here, is one of degree - the underlying philosphy - using the force of the government to snatch money from some to give to others - is identical.
But history is undeniable to anyone except the daft loons who live in Chittumland. Government intervention into markets and industry is a proven path to abject failure. In every instance. Always. Except under martial law.
Imprisonment and execution are effective motivational replacements for profit incentive. There's no question about that.
Ryan's schtick is always the same. Businesses should give some arbitrary amount of money to workers. There's no science here. Ryan just pulls some number out of his wazoo and then makes the argument that compelling businesses to dole out more wages than the free market bears somehow (through the magic of the Gubmint's Money Fairy, readers must assume) makes things run better.
This is just silly. From Adam Smith's "invisible Hand", to Marx and Engels, to even Krugman today... EVERYBODY knows that putting the Gubmint into anything makes it less efficient.
It's ECON 101.
And as an aside, while it must be conceded that CJR is loaded with Chittumites, there is nary a single representative "watchdog" to be seen from the other side of the political highway.. So while your point is a good one, Wally, there is no question that balance is lacking around here.
#6 Posted by padikiller, CJR on Wed 22 Feb 2012 at 12:10 PM
Dear Mr Chittum,
Despite what those whose knowledge of industry consists of fairy tails and watching reruns of Rosanne think, you hit the nail squarely on the head. I am nearing the end of a career that began in 1966, doing pretty much the very high tech work those employers can't find workers to do. Most of it in factories, with a bit in shops, and my tech training in the military. I didn't see the inside of a college until I was around 30, and then had my freshman year tested through.
Yes, high tech factory automation has been around for over 35 years, and factories did train people to do it. Those who think you can get that training in high school, or even community colleges, are dreaming. Perhaps you can get the basics, the very basics, but the work is specialized enough you really do have to learn it on the job.
And you are right, apprenticeships are the way factories used to do it. You did not take a high school welding class and walk in a skilled worker.
I found your commentary while searching for the original article, with the intention of posting a response, which would have said pretty much what you said. Since I do have a lot more experience at it than you do, and almost certainly most if not all of your critics, you can consider this an authoritative endorsement of your article.
#7 Posted by Bob Klahn, CJR on Wed 22 Feb 2012 at 04:54 PM
Chalk up one factory worker in favor of Ryan's plan to dole out arbitrarily large chunks money to factory workers.
Surprising (and, of course, authoritative)!
#8 Posted by padikiller, CJR on Wed 22 Feb 2012 at 05:09 PM
Right, right, padkiller, anybody who disagrees with you in any way on any issue is of course in favor of Communism, gulags, etc. etc. As a plaque at JoeMcCarthyLand's world-renowned Robert W. Welch Hall of Discourse tells us: Dwight D. Eisenhower was a “conscious, dedicated agent of the communist conspiracy.” When we speak of him "it is difficult to avoid raising the question of deliberate treason."
#9 Posted by wallyworld, CJR on Wed 22 Feb 2012 at 05:37 PM
poor little padi is crying. boohoo
#10 Posted by sergio, CJR on Thu 23 Feb 2012 at 03:39 AM
You guys can huff and puff...
But Ryan's contention that some sort of "social contract" existed between employers and employees is just silly Marxist nonsense.
In Chittumland, companies exist only to pay workers. Oh, and taxes. Owners aren't entitled to evil "profits" garnered from the "back breaking" work of the proletariat. Companies that maximize profit for investors are monsters.
If a company makes money, then it is money stolen from exploited workers. On the other hand, if a company loses money, then its presumptive fraud and managers need to go to jail
Here in Realityland, the ONLY reason to hire an employee is to make a profit. PERIOD. The ONLY reason I hire a secretary is to make me money.
It's not slavery and it's not evil. It is voluntary, fair, just and GOOD for society.
I take the personal risk, I work 65 or 70 hours a week, and my secretary punches in at 9, punches out at 5 and picks up a check on Friday. If my business fails, I face bankruptcy, but my secretary just goes to work for somebody else.
We both benefit. I get profit from her labor - she gets income without risk, portability and leisure time.
Society benefits from this relationship. We both do WORK that creates wealth. We add to the value of things. We each pay taxes based on the wealth we create.
The sooner this country ditches the culture of expectancy and sloth that 80 years of liberal polices have engendered, the better. I know liberals don't like hearing it, but the only way for a society to progress is for people to do WORK.
And when the Gravy Train derails (and it is doing so now all over the Western world) the underemployed, uneducated, unskilled slobs currently mooching off the Gubmint will have to make a choice - either be an owner and take risk, or be a worker.
Most of these people will choose to work for others (it is the laziest way, after all) and so they will either need to get the skills employers are willing to pay for or swing a mop or flip burgers.
Ryan's pet collectivist notion that tossing arbitrarily huge chunks of the shareholders money at employees will achieve some desirable social end, is absurd.
#11 Posted by padikiller, CJR on Thu 23 Feb 2012 at 08:41 AM
padi
your secretary takes the exact same risks that you do, without the upside. if your company goes bust she is out of work, if the company makes a profit you collect. if the company goes bust you can insulate your personal wealth from the impact, can she?
if she can just go work for some one else, so can you.
everyone pays taxes, including business owners. you expect an educated work force, some one has to pay for that education that would be one of the functions of taxes. the profit your business makes is in part due to the effort of your employees, if you think that they deserve no part of that profit then I expect most of your employees will qualatatively reflect that.
Employees operate in a market just like manufacturers, if you demand certain skill sets and they are not available at the price you are offering to pay then you have a number of choices, pay more is one of the choices. that is not communism it the definition of free market economics.
#12 Posted by marketman, CJR on Thu 23 Feb 2012 at 09:47 AM
The irony is that their problem is caused by workers having too much skill, not too little.
These employers are looking for young people with keen minds and solid work habits, but with only a high school diploma or an associates' degree, to be machine operators. Their problem is that high school graduates with keen minds and solid work habits generally go to college these days. The demographic they want to hire has been trained to design machines, not run them. Plenty of them would be happy to have the job, except that their nondischargeable student loans make accepting a $30K job extremely problematic (especially if that job has no obvious promotion path).
#13 Posted by Jay, CJR on Thu 23 Feb 2012 at 10:22 AM
my sister lives/works in holland. her husband has a high school diploma and a few shop college classes. She has a degree in kinesiology. He has no problem moving from factory job to another when they out pay the other.
Holland and the grand rapids area are known as a good place in the state of michigan to find a job. it is also predominantly white christian republicans. They all believe it's the job of the worker to educate himself for the job. No more on the job training. They also are great at using their connections to assist family members to get better jobs over others. Especially in Holland, where if you are dutch, you are favored above others, where Holland has a large Mexican American community. And don't forget, the cost of living on the west side of Michigan is much higher than other parts of the state, even the capitol.
If they want workers, why don't they relocate to detroit, where unemployment is 30%?
And lets not be short-sighted here. The jobs may pay "14-16 an hour" but do they include health insurance? retirement (not 401k)? disability? Americans are so of the mindset now that "SS will not be around when I am eligible" and that they will work until they die, all that sells a person on anything is getting that immediate "fix". Who cares about 25 years from now? I am only worried if i can pay my bills now. 'Look! I got a dollar an hour raise! Let's vacation in the bahamas!' Like the employer above says, 'i may go overseas if wages get too high'.
I work as a tax accountant. I have a 4 year degree. When I confronted my boss over the fact that family members and friends without college were being paid higher wages, with extensive benefits, while i was making less with no benefits, I was told 'those jobs are going away so we will see their wages come down to meet yours'. And this is a small business.
So the objective is to continue to lower wages at all levels and eliminate benefits under the flag "american individualism". Each person is responsible for his or her needs. If your parents attend the right functions and know the right ppl, they can get you connected to a good paying job. While the rest of us kick around at the bottom. Remember how in the 90s the talk began that a person could only figure being at a job for 5-7 years and that the average worker would change jobs at least 5 times in their lives and it was celebrated as a great thing for the american worker. Of course they didn't mention that what would happen is that after 5 years either the company would move overseas or get bought/sold and you would be part of the downsizing. But don't worry! There would be another job available. You would have to take a few bucks less and have to wait 6 months for your insurance to accept that pre-existing condition, but hey! at least you have a job.
#14 Posted by ep3, CJR on Thu 23 Feb 2012 at 11:04 AM
padikiller blithered,
LOL. It's not as if parasitic rent collectors (primarily land owners, but also much of the FIRE sector) do any work (where by "work" I don't mean "rent collection").
#15 Posted by liberal, CJR on Thu 23 Feb 2012 at 11:25 AM
from Padikiller: The sooner this country ditches the culture of expectancy and sloth that 80 years of liberal polices have engendered, the better. I know liberals don't like hearing it, but the only way for a society to progress is for people to do WORK.
Hey Pads, I'd love to work. I don't have a job. I spend hours a day trying to get one, but no luck so far.
Here's the problem: Business are laying off staff because their customers aren't spending as much as they used to. The customers aren't spending because they're worried about their own jobs. It's a vicious cycle, and it's not something we can fix by just trying harder.
Somebody needs to inject some money into the system, so that customers will spend it and businesses will hire. The banking system could do it, if it wasn't swamped with bad debt, but right now the government is pretty much the only actor that can turn things around.
Think about it: we were all rich 15 years ago, and now we're all poor. Did we all just magically get lazy? Probably not. More likely we're having a problem at the systemic level.
#16 Posted by Jay, CJR on Thu 23 Feb 2012 at 02:50 PM
Interesting discussion. I'm seeing most sides of this as valid. In my case 18 months of tech school was required to get one of those learn-on-the-job positions. Which led to a 20 year factory career in electronics manufacturing.
Prior to that, in the 70's, you just about had to be family to get an apprenticeship in Local 58, the electricians union in Detroit. I aced the tests and got to interview with a bunch of overweight dudes that asked me more about who I knew than what I knew.
So a lot of us worked non-union, skilled jobs and often encountered the job-shutdown scenario when the other trades guys would call in the business agents to card us regarding our part of the job and block the entrance if we didn't comply and pay dues during the project.
And the small companies we worked for would nick us if they could but at strategic times we could put them over a barrel too, and did. All fair play in my book, simply human interaction and free will.
Times have seriously changed though and there's not much anybody can do at this point imho. We pissed away our social cohesion, got seduced by phony wealth, handed over control to incompetent individuals and now we just wait to see what will happen.
That's my take from the peanut gallery.
#17 Posted by John, CJR on Thu 23 Feb 2012 at 05:19 PM
marketman wrote: "padi your secretary takes the exact same risks that you do, without the upside"
padikiller responds: BS
My secretary's name isn't on a five-year lease for office space.
My secretary isn't going to jail if the payroll taxes aren't paid.
My secretary doesn't pay FUTA, FICA, Workman's Comp, or liability insurance.
Finally, my secretary didn't invest $200,000 in capital.
If my business fails, my secretary goes on unemployment (on my nickel) until she gets a new job somewhere else.
I'm ruined.
You don't have the first clue how business works.
#18 Posted by padikiller, CJR on Thu 23 Feb 2012 at 06:59 PM
"If my business fails, my secretary goes on unemployment (on my nickel) until she gets a new job somewhere else.
I'm ruined."
Yes, yes, that's how it works in the real world. When a business goes under, the underlings get away like bandits, and the big bosses -- who usually have very little of their own capital invested -- are "ruined."
"Ruined." No money in the bank. No cash salted away in the offshore accounts. No mansions. Just "ruined."
Never mind the Mozilos, etc., of the world taking away hundreds of millions (and paying spare change -- 5%, 10%, 15% -- in legal settlements) (and maybe selling one of their five million-dollar mansions/villas to "make ends meet") while average workers face unemployment, limited jobless benefits, foreclosure and a flooded, depressed job market.
The truth is that hundreds of companies in the past couple of decades have gone bankrupt, leaving their shareholders, workers and creditors in the lurch. Meanwhile, top execs -- who ran the company into the ground with get-rich-quick/maximize-executive-bonuses strategies -- live pretty comfortably on the millions (or tens of millions or hundreds of millions) they managed to extract before their unsustainable business models were exposed to the light of reality.
In other words, they were "ruined."
#19 Posted by econ101, CJR on Thu 23 Feb 2012 at 10:14 PM
Dear Padikiller: So you've invested $200K into your business, and you're ruined if it fails. Since you didn't incorporate, you're either a lawyer, a doctor, a dentist, or an idiot (admittedly, there might be some other, rarer alternative). If you're a lawyer, well, you're part of the problem. If you're an idiot, I can't help you.
If you're a doctor or a dentist, then you're very unusual. Your education and training are far beyond the norm (about top 1%), and part of the job is taking responsibility for your work. The usual market principle of "caveat emptor" is overruled by law because the average customer doesn't know enough to be able to second-guess you. But your practice is structured in a way that most people's jobs haven't been since the mid-19th century. Most notably, your business really can't grow very much, and won't try.
The rest of us work, when we can, for big damn corporations. We're one small cog in a big machine, and that machine exists to enrich senior management (they make some kowtows toward the shareholders, but when the shareholders' needs conflict with management's, sell short). Accountability is more theory than practice; management can't usually tell who's performing and who's not, and is too absorbed in their own bull to try. There's a lot to be said for reforms to corporate governance, which could be good for shareholders and workers alike.
The bigger problem, which was recognized over a century ago, is that free markets tend to be self-liquidating. Over time, more and more money ends up in fewer and fewer hands. It ends in one of two ways. Either the rich entrench their power and become lords, or the government spreads the wealth around (e.g. the 96% maximum tax rate post WWII) and keeps the game going.
#20 Posted by Jay, CJR on Thu 23 Feb 2012 at 10:39 PM
padikiller couldn't be more wrong.
There is no such thing as the "free market" - Republicans trot out that old dog and pony show every time they don't like something.. and since a black man was legitimately elected president, that happens a lot these days. [Just so we're clear: Republicans are racist.] However, Republican ideas are nothing more than shoveling money to the top 0.5%.
Make no mistake, Republicans give away more money than Democrats every day of the week. Democrats just happen to give it to more people, while Republicans give it to the very few.. who by the way do most definitely not "trickle it down" to the rest of us. The only thing that trickles down is their laughter at having conned another rube into believing the ownership society would welcome them.
It's an indisputable fact - Republicans have no economic ideas. Ronald Reagan raised taxes and started the trend of adding debt to the US like it's going out of style. What's Boner's next proposal? Cut taxes for the 19th time, because the last 18 worked so well? The only jobs Bush added to the US economy were in the militaries of the nations he invaded. Bush's biggest legacy, aside from TARP - yes, that was Bush, look it up - is the single largest bill in the history of the US, Medicare Part D. Bush is the welfare president, not Obama.. Bush added more people and at a higher rate of annual increase than Obama.
If the market was actually free, financial CEO's would be doing their time in Otisville prison - because a truly free market has PENALTIES for anyone who deliberately commits fraud. No prison convictions? We've got no free market, government intervention is part of the game, and companies can't make wild assumptions about the skill set of workers in any particular area. In fact, this article is rather bizarre, because welding is such a skilled trade that usually the research arm of the local university works with companies to train the workers that will be part of the company in a few years.
The reason companies can't find workers is because they are attempting to undercut labor cost. Even Henry Ford knew he had to pay his workers a higher-than-average wage to have a market for his cars.
#21 Posted by Unsympathetic, CJR on Fri 24 Feb 2012 at 12:58 AM
After reading all 21 of the above comments, the comment above by Unsympathetic was by far the best. I can never understand how those who promote the free market meme can possibly think that the US even remotely resembles anything other than a casino rigged such that the owner will always win.
And Pedi, cry me a river. Why are conservatives always such chronic victims? If your secretary has it so much better, can we assume you would be willing to trade places? I didn't think so. Would you like to explain why labor's share of corporate income has continually declined over the last four decades? And three guesses whose income has climbed exponentially? Finally, if there has been a $200,000 capital investment, guaranteed that either your company is incorporated or is some type of limited liability entity, thus you are not personally liable. Would you like to try again, this time leaving out the disingenous arguments?
As an "older" person who has been around the track a few times and had more than one career, on-the-job-training used to be common and is rare now. Furthermore, at least in the IT/programming world, companies will advertise jobs requiring skill sets and experience (and a good programmer can quickly pick up new languages, I've had to program in 4-5 different new languages in the same number of months) that can't possibly be filled, not because US workers are lacking, we have the best programmers in the world, but because the advertised requirements are so varied and obscure it's unreasonable to expect them to exist in one person. Ultimately, a foreign worker is brought in on an H-1 visa who surprise, surprise, also does not have the advertised skills, but is willing to work for far less money. Mission accomplished.
#22 Posted by LucyLulu, CJR on Fri 24 Feb 2012 at 02:07 AM
padikiller, you talk gibberish. Plain old hogwash.
The reason there are no welders available at the example given is that $14-$16/hr. jobs don't buy the groceries or the gasoline, or the utility bill, or childcare, or the auto payment, or the huge "private for profit" health care insurance, and you whine about "commies, you puke. Exactly how does your precious "capitalism" work when wages are attacked and disparaged, padikiller?When jobs are shipped to slave labor markets, then imported back with no tariffs and low corporate tax rates?
If wages don't grow, only "profit for the very few". your capitalism dies. Strangled by incompetence and ignorance, which you seem to have in abundance.
Germany has a huge export of high tech manufacturing, and they have mandated corporate training, socialized health care and when the economy slows, they all work less hours...everyone shares the pain. They have twice or three times the paid holidays of the average American worker....
And of course you disparage "unions".... that gave us pensions which were paid-for through negotiations of the past profit earned by the management and company together, and cuts taken when profits dwindle, yet somehow the profit per auto, per refrigerator, per tv, got STOLEN by corporate raiders (spelt ROMNEY), health care, 40/hr work weeks, no child labor, overtime for extra hours, safety, and all these things bother poow widdle you.
A union trained me straight out of high school, taught me how to become a PROFITABLE journeyman (dad was union man all his life: "son, if the company doesn't make money, you don't have a job...."), that the companies could hire from the Local without worry of competence, without worrying about needing to pay "middle managers" to overlook what they don't understand, and meanwhile tariffs assuring growth of our domestic market were dismantled, low cost labor goods allowed into our domestic markets without reciprocity, killing America's high standard of living in exchange for a good quarterly report.
Buddy, I'd like to kick you in your backside, maybe shake out the cobwebs, since that is what you're talking out of.
After 30 years of making others a profit, I started my own business, hired and paid the best wages and benefits of any competitor, word got around I was the guy to work for...but expected production and professionalism.
Unions trained that in me. I raised two grown sons, retired at 56, enjoy my life....until I see what nincompoops like you spew....padikiller needs to be taken to the union woodshed.
#23 Posted by farang, CJR on Fri 24 Feb 2012 at 04:32 AM
These silly leftists just can't stand the Reality..
Listen up, guys.. There is ONE, and ONLY ONE reason for anyone in business to employee a worker... And that is to MAKE MONEY FROM THE LABOR OF THE WORKER.
To EXPLOIT the worker. To USE the worker.
Like "farang" does with the welders he hires. When he says he "expects production and professionalism" from his employees, it is because he is EXPLOITING them. He is PROFITING from their labor. Just like he profited his employers for 30 years.
And that is a GOOD thing. He takes the risk, he invests the capital, he has the knowledge and training to run a business, and the workers get the opportunity to make a living.
If his business hits the skids, his employees aren't on the hook - he is.
Honestly, farang makes my case in every way, though he misunderstands my position on unions. In fact, I was a member of two different unions, a shop steward for three years, and am vested in a union pension plan. Indeed I only left the union when I took a management position. It is unfair to characterize me as being "anti-union" simply because I point out the fact that the unions share the blame with management for the sad state of the American auto industry.
And listen up again, kiddies.
You won't see me defending the GOP or George W. Bush when it comes to bailouts and Gubmint doleouts. I was right here calling for his impeachment over it.
#24 Posted by padikiller, CJR on Fri 24 Feb 2012 at 08:57 PM
Another thought for farang:
By stating plainly that you tired of making profits for others, you concede that you are currently profiting yourself. So far, so good. Profits aren't bad, they're good.
But you imply that you are paying your workers more than the market wages for their work.
Within any trade, profession or other class of labor, there is a fair market wage - not necessarily a single number or even an average, but certainly a range of wages (as represented in the $14-$16 per hour referred to in the article)
And also certainly, a wise employer pays at the higher end of the scale if he or she wants to retain the best employees and if he or she can afford it. No question about that.
Now, farang, either you are paying higher than market wages, or you aren't. Either you are paying your employers more than you need to in order to retain them, or you aren't.
If you aren't paying more than the wages necessary to retain your employees, then welcome to my side of the argument. You're engaged in prudent business, and if you manage it right, you'll be competitive as long as the industry is competitive (though remember what Ford did to blacksmiths).
If instead, you're paying higher than the wages you need to pay in order to retain your employees, then you are overcharging your customers (like Henry Ford did) and consequently driving your customers to your competition (like from Ford to GM). Every nickel you pay in extra wages to your employees comes out of your customers' pockets and if they can get the same work done for fewer nickels, they will (and should) do so.
Ford initially paid higher than market wages in a largely successful effort to keep labor unions out of his company (indeed, Ford - who hated unions - didn't have a union plant until 1941) but he ultimately lost out. Now, Ford pays about the same as the other auto manufacturers.
Again.. I'm not anti-union by any stretch of the imagination. I believe that no employee should be prevented by anyone (management, union leadership or government) from joining any union of his or her choice. I believe that if a majority of employees choose to join a particular union, then management should be required to bargain in good faith with the union.
But... I also believe that no employee should be required to join any particular union and that the any employee who wants to join a different union or opt out of any union entirely should be free to do so. And I also believe that the only fair way to protect workers' rights and to prevent intimidation from management (or unions) is a secret ballot.
#25 Posted by padikiller, CJR on Sat 25 Feb 2012 at 01:04 PM
Yes, padi, that is a reasonable summary of why employers hire workers -- to make money off their labor.
It's just that you seem to be ignoring the other side of the equation in a free market -- workers take jobs not because they want to serve their employers but because they want to earn the best wages (and benefits) they can given the prevailing market conditions.
If companies are whining about not being able to hire qualified employees, it's quite reasonable to suggest, as Ryan did, that maybe the solution is respond to market conditions by offering more for a commodity (qualified workers) that's in low supply and high demand (that's pretty basic Econ 101, supply and demand, dude: fair market wages are impacted by the supply of skilled labor and the demand for said skilled labor).
But we're not really debate about the free market, rational actors, freewheeling discussing on the issues etc. etc. It's more a simple equation: Disagree with padi in any way and you're not just misinformed or wrongheaded, you're a Commie Marxist Stalinist Maoist Macrobiotic Hummus Kitchen-patronizing Hippie Leftist.
#26 Posted by mortm, CJR on Mon 27 Feb 2012 at 04:53 PM
You aren't getting it, and it's not entirely your fault. We're dealing with some of that patented Chittumized Selective Quotation.
Let me spell it out for you: "The shortage of skilled workers has also pushed up wages, though executives said raising them too far could push more work to overseas plants".
The competition is China. India. Korea. Malaysia. Etc.
Paying tons of money will get people to weld, no question about it. But American businesses can't dole out arbitrary amounts of money and remain competitive.
Like I said... Ryan's circa 1973 plan is great! Just pay more money for less work and we'll get all the Gremlins and Pintos we can make until the factories shut down.
Been there, done that. It doesn't work.
Sure workers will (and should) demand the highest wages for their work. But this isn't a labor shortage - unemployment is at 9%. This is a skill shortage. This a symptom of the dumbing down of our society. The few people who actually know how to do things are living high on the hog, while the ignorant masses lump along unemployed.
#27 Posted by padikiller, CJR on Mon 27 Feb 2012 at 05:15 PM
watch it, Padi.
I didn't selectively quote anything. That full quote is there.
#28 Posted by Ryan Chittum, CJR on Tue 28 Feb 2012 at 12:19 AM
Jeez, what a thin skin! How in the Hell could you reach the conclusion that I claimed you didn't quote something that I cut-and-pasted from your quote and bolded?
Let me make it clear what I mean by the patented Chittumized Selective Quotation technique:
1. Begin with the Premise du Jour - the "Rich" are paying too little in taxes, the SEC is conspiring with Wall Street, whatever. In this case the Premise is that The Man isn't paying enough to the Workers.
2. Scour all the liberal online outlets, starting with David Cay Johnston, Krugman, and Taibbi and then peruse them until you get a link to a MSM story in the NYT or WaPo or WJS.
3. Selectively quote the MSM article to defend the Premise and toss in whatever you can find on Slate, DailyKos, alt.gop.bloodsuckers, or whatever other liberal site you can find.
4. Repeat next submission.
This is what passes for "professional journalism" in Chittumland and in general here at CJR.
What do we rarely see here? Inquiry. Investigation. Balance. Consideration.
When the interest of small business owners is presented, what do we get from CJR's "watchdogs"? A second-hand account of a "man on the street" interview with a liberal shill who runs a eco-friendly vegan store and who regularly sidelines as a"man on the street" in interviews with liberal reporters.
Do we hear from the guy who runs the muffler shop across the street? The guy who owns the Subway franchises in town? Hell no. They're the LAST people to whom CJR would give a voice.
One thing is clear, Ryan.
I would bet a thousand dollars that you have never once been responsible for funding a payroll account. Ever. You've never had to choose between making payroll or a mortgage payment. Ever. You have no clue about your own subject matter, practically speaking.
Let me drop some ECON 101 on you. In the middle of a horrible economy with high unemployment, you pay LESS for labor, not more, Taking money from investors to overpay workers does NOT grow the economy. Taking money from customers to overpay workers does NOT grow the economy. Reducing profits or capital to overpay workers does NOT grow the economy. PERIOD.
Growing the economy grows wages. Wealth isn't fixed. It is created by well-directed, efficient labor and prudent management, and it is destroyed by sloth and waste.
If you want to see the lot of the Proletariat improved, then you need to do what China did and what Russia did when their dabblings in Chittumism resulted in famine and economic stagnation - namely get the Gubmint out of the way of people doing business.
#29 Posted by padikiller, CJR on Tue 28 Feb 2012 at 11:54 AM
So China and Russia's economic policies are now the model for every Right Thinking American? Hmmmmm. Sweat Shops and Oligarchs, here we come.
#30 Posted by prolish, CJR on Tue 28 Feb 2012 at 01:24 PM
I'm not advocating governments based on the Chinese or Russian governments. I'm just noting the REALITY - that China and Russia each learned that government-managed economies don't work.
Liberals don't like hearing it, but that just the way it is.
#31 Posted by padikiller, CJR on Tue 28 Feb 2012 at 01:29 PM
"Let me drop some ECON 101 on you."
Oh please don't. I don't believe any of us are prepared to handle the weight of your napkin of econ knowledge.
"In the middle of a horrible economy with high unemployment"
Caused by your deregulated banker friends and conservatives who gave the manufacturing sector away because they don't like unions and they love supply side economics (which was written on a napkin).
"you pay LESS for labor, not more"
You pay market rates - period. if the supply of people who can do a job, such as being a conscienceless soul sucking vampire banker, is low the worker has leverage, the worker exploits leverage, the worker can take home a little more than the usual employee percentage of the markup.
You know who agrees with me? Padikiller!
http://www.cjr.org/the_audit/cronyism_and_executive_compens.php
"Ryan asks the commie question du jour: "Why do corporate boards insist on paying their CEOs based on what their peers are making?"
padikiller tolls the Reality Bell: Because corporations are in COMPETITION with each other, Ryan.
They need to pay the going rate for talent.
Does it work in every instance? Of course not.
Do football teams who pay top dollar for talent get a positive return on their investment when they sign a new quarterback?
Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't.
But if they don't pay what the FREE MARKET bears, then they don't stand a chance.
Same thing in the business world.
This is the REALITY."
"Taking money from investors to overpay workers does NOT grow the economy. "
Ahh ya, it does. Workers will spend the money. Investors will hoard it, stick it outside the economy. ECON 101 moron.
"Taking money from customers to overpay workers does NOT grow the economy."
Again, ya it does. Workers are also customers. Well paid workers circulate their income within their economy. ECON 101.
" Reducing profits or capital to overpay workers does NOT grow the economy. PERIOD."
Oooooo. Shareholder makes a little less? Corporation can't use its profits to do a stick buy back? Tell me how shareholder capitalism has worked as a stable economic model and grown the American economy compared to the fifties, sixties, and seventies. Tell me how Japan and Germany, despite their own economic problems (due to idiot right wing bankers) have kept their high wage manufacturing sectors long after America gave it away.
Tell me why bank executives shouldn't have to compete with "China. India. Korea. Malaysia. Etc." since the competition couldn't possibly be more incompetent than American bankers and yet they are compensated magnitudes less:
http://graphics.thomsonreuters.com/099/GLB_EXCMP0909.gif
Lay some more of that napkin wisdom on us because we really need to know more ECON 101 from the likes of you.
#32 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Tue 28 Feb 2012 at 01:44 PM
Thimbles, I've made it clear that (i) workers can (and should) demand the highest wages they can and (ii) that prudent employers pay good wages to retain employees if they can afford to.
But the facts are the facts, Dude. In an economy with 9% unemployment, the cost of labor goes down. That's just how it is.
As for growing the economy... Who handles capital better? An educated, hard-working entrepreneur? Or Joe from Sheboygan who works at the tractor plant?
Your contentions are just silly. Punishing shareholders or customers in a bad economy is not a way to spur hiring. No matter how many times you click your heels together.
#33 Posted by padikiller, CJR on Tue 28 Feb 2012 at 03:26 PM
"Thimbles, I've made it clear that (i) workers can (and should) demand the highest wages they can and (ii) that prudent employers pay good wages to retain employees if they can afford to."
And they can, corporate profits are at a high, there's 2 trillion in cash reserves laying around, all that's needed is a market.
And what's needed to make that market is a force of educated workers who are getting well enough wages and good enough job security to be consumers.
Without that you have a plunge in demand and corporations just sit on their under taxed hands and wait for the economy to pick itself up.
So yeah, in normal skill jobs, the cost of labor will go down as the supply of workers competing for jobs remains high and the cost of putting green workers on the payroll remains lower than the cost of keeping senior staff on (green workers can have high costs in productivity and client efficacy).
With a unique skill job, where qualified applicants are in low supply, a company has four choices:
1. Pay the market rate and compete for the resource.
2. Rework your business so you don't need the resource, for instance:
http://www.informationweek.com/news/government/enterprise-architecture/232600728
3. Absorb the cost of training a regular employee to do the task, with reduced compensation demands to to the specialization towards inhouse activities instead of general skills.
4. Move your setup to India and grow their economy instead.
Otherwise you're stuck with the fifth option- a vacant position.
"But the facts are the facts, Dude. In an economy with 9% unemployment, the cost of labor goes down. That's just how it is."
Oh come on. Here are the facts. Nobody has to work for anyone's company. If a company can't fill its position because they won't put up the money for the position's cost, that's a sad day for that company. There is no "natural law of economics" that says everybody's compensation has to go down at the same time because of - I don't know.. mutual sympathy.
Compensation is based on a demand for skills and the value of a competent professional worker.
It's only in the executive class club that suddenly competency gets thrown out the window and parasites get highly rewarded. Everywhere else you deal with labor market ECON 101 - $$$ = value of knowledge + value of workmanship.
"As for growing the economy... Who handles capital better? An educated, hard-working entrepreneur? Or Joe from Sheboygan who works at the tractor plant?"
Doesn't matter. Who buys more stuff? Joe Shmoe entrepreneur or 300 Joe and Josephine Shmoes assembling tractors to support 300 families? Not even a close contest. Having 300 Joe Shmoes making $30,000 a year and one entrepreneur making a million beats one Joe Shmoe making 10 million and 300 Joe Shmoes on welfare and UI.
ECON 101.
"Your contentions are just silly. Punishing shareholders or customers in a bad economy is not a way to spur hiring. No matter how many times you click your heels together."
I'm not saying that, I'm saying your model of rewarding shareholders at the cost of secure employment + decent compensation for the customers you require to shop has created the bad economy. It was guaranteed outcome as soon as you hit the limits of consumer credit. It was a dumb model to begin with and it should be scrapped.
When you undermine your labor market, you undermine your consumer base. When you build up your labor market, you build your consumer base. ECON 101.
#34 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Tue 28 Feb 2012 at 06:06 PM
Thimbles:
How has anyone "undermined" the labor market? This is just silly talk.
What you call "secure employment + decent compensation" is libspeak for "forcing The Man to retain employees he wants to get rid of and forcing him to pay wages higher than the market bears".
Doing this takes money from investors, customers, or both and doles it out to workers. And this does NOT grow the economy.
You guys don't have the first clue about business.
When I put an ad on craigslist for a $9.50 an hour part-time receptionist a few years ago, I got more than a 100 resumes. Candidates with master's degrees. A former officer manager with 20 years of experience. A ton of people desperate to work for low wages. Things haven't gotten any better since.
You think I should pay $15 an hour for a receptionist.... Why, exactly?
Dude... I am in business to MAKE MONEY. FOR ME. That is the ONLY reason I take the risk and expend the effort of running a business instead of working a 9 to 5 job.
I am NOT in the business of tossing out gobs of money to employees when I don't need to. Of course, I give raises to retain and motivate good employees, but I'm not running a charity here.
And I am doing the best thing for society. Running a business providing services or products to people in a competitive environment MAKES WEALTH. It makes a BETTER society. Any profit I earn is a direct measure of the extent to which I improve society.
#35 Posted by padikiller, CJR on Tue 28 Feb 2012 at 06:56 PM
Mike H. on the 21st has hit the nail on the head when he talks about the shop classes we all used to have in jr high & High schools... But because of cut backs to the schools and the greadyness of big bussness the schools have long elimnated all shop classes. Woodworking/metals/powermacanics. Yes i had them all in the early 70's... My kids graduated in 2004 & 2006 and the had just about nothing. My son went to Tec school and my daughter is still curantly serving in the Navy... Kids need to have hands on schooling by age 12 and be incuraged to do the things they like (have a passion for) and some one needs to tell the school systems to "stop" telling every kid to go to busness / management colage AND get the comunity and the state to invest into the next generation...
#36 Posted by Paul Jensen, CJR on Tue 3 Apr 2012 at 01:15 PM