The most frustrating thing about the Jim Romenesko affair is the way that so many people who should know better are insisting that there is no Jim Romenesko affair.
Romenesko, the seminal media blogger, resigned from the Poynter Institute last night after his boss, Julie Moos, published an article detailing his occasional failure to indicate that the language he was using to summarize the stories he linked to was, in fact, taken verbatim from the stories themselves. (Moos’s post was prompted by an e-mail from CJR’s Erika Fry, who was requesting an interview for a forthcoming story about the Romenesko+ blog.)
The article made a lot of people very angry—primarily at Julie Moos, a woman whom nobody knows, for having the gall to publicly criticize Jim Romenesko, who is famous. And while much of the rancor seemed directed at Moos’s tone and timing, plenty of people seemed certain that there was nothing to complain about at all.
Capital New York’s Joe Pompeo, as did many journalists, said on Twitter that he “just wanted to go on record saying I’ve never had any issues with @Romenesko’s aggregation of my work.” Felix Salmon dubbed Romenesko “a KING of the blogosphere. He’s the kind of person you should be looking to as an exemplar of best practices in the blogosphere. If your guidelines go against what Jim is doing, then there might well be something wrong with your guidelines.” Even Jack Shafer, scourge of the journalistic malefactor, used his Twitter account to assemble a list of over twenty press critics who were “standing up for Romenesko.” (That’s pretty much all of them.)
It’s rare that you see so many people rising to declare their support for sloppy attribution practices. To claim, as American Journalism Review editor Rem Rieder does, that Romenesko “made eminently clear where the material was coming from” is inane and false. Yes, Romenesko links back to his sources, but any casual browser of the Poynter site would have no way of knowing that the words Romenesko used weren’t his own—and, especially lately, the Romenesko+ extended summaries are long enough to give readers little reason to click through to the original article. And while Jeremy W. Peters of The New York Times wrote that the “bizarre spat” revolved around “summaries that Mr. Romenesko never claimed credit for as his original work,” the fact is that all of Jim Romenesko’s Poynter posts carried Jim Romenesko’s byline, and, as such, it is reasonable to expect that those posts were his original work.
I like Romenesko very much, and not just for the traffic he’s sent CJR over the years. I’ve read his media blog since before it moved to Poynter, because it has always been fascinating and excellent. I visited his now-defunct “weird news” blog, Obscure Store, several times a day for what must have been fifteen years. I even go to his Starbucks Gossip site, even though I have no great thirst for Starbucks gossip. And, in some small sense, I know how hard his job must be.
For years, Slate ran a daily column called “Today’s Papers,” which was an early-morning summary and analysis of the top stories in America’s top five newspapers. I was one of about a dozen freelancers who would occasionally fill in for the lead Today’s Papers writer. The columns were very difficult to write, and not just because I had to do so on the overnight shift. As it turns out, it’s hard to summarize someone else’s work briefly and efficiently. I can’t count the number of times that I would be sitting there, stymied, at three in the morning, unsure why I was expending so much effort trying to restate what somebody else had already said.

Disagree with the premise here...I understand the temptation to make this into a morality play about aggregators, but it doesn't fit. Did anyone ever think Romenesko was representing those post/links as his own work? Plagiarism - like all forms of intellectual dishonesty - is about a violated trust that simply does not exist vis a vis Romenesko.
#1 Posted by Ragnar Carlson, CJR on Fri 11 Nov 2011 at 03:52 AM
No one is defending Romenesko because he's famous. No, people are defending him because what he did was always clear and ethical, and never "sloppy." No one was misled. His items existed to link to the site from which the news came. That was the entire point of his items. No journalist so linked from the Romenesko digest complained, because none was a victim. (Nor is the reporter whose story is picked up by an RSS feed.)
In short, your summary is a distortion: "The article made a lot of people very angry—primarily at Julie Moos, a woman whom nobody knows, for having the gall to publicly criticize Jim Romenesko, who is famous."
No one who read the reader comments on the two Poynter memos/articles could fairly characterize the comments in the tendentious way that you have. Those who value Poynter, and CJR, deserve better.
#2 Posted by Bill Dedman, CJR on Fri 11 Nov 2011 at 07:14 AM
Actually, Bill, there has indeed been anger directed at Julie Moos over her questioning Romenesko's work. That opprobrium may not have been visible in some of the comments beneath her Thursday post, but they were many angry Tweets directed at her yesterday. One said something like, "we should all send Julie Moos pieces of our hair so she can split them."
#3 Posted by Justin Martin, CJR on Fri 11 Nov 2011 at 09:16 AM
The issue of plagiarism (and that is the flag being waved here, by Poynter and CJR, even though they seem squeamish about using the word) focuses on two things: the intent of the writer and the understanding of the reader. No one seems to be questioning the writer's intent in this case-- there was no intention to plagiarize, no holding himself out as the original wordsmith. So the question is what readers understood.
In my experience with the Romenesko blog over about 15 years (at Poynter and before that), almost all reporters who were picked up there quickly knew it. If we conservatively estimate that at 5 stories per day, on each of nearly 250 working days, over 15 years, that means that well more than 15,000 pieces were picked up by Romenesko without a single complaint. Isn't that conclusive with respect to readers' understanding?
What most astonishes me over the last 24 hours is that it seems that people at both Poynter and CJR have only recently become familiar with Romenesko's approach. The rest of us have, for years and years, been clicking through to stories and seeing language repeated there that we had read in the post from which we had clicked. We took this to be careful selection-- the epitome of great aggregation. Were the folks at Poynter and CJR not clicking through? Not reading to the bottom? Not recalling the turns of phrase? I'm just baffled by this.
#4 Posted by Dick Tofel, CJR on Fri 11 Nov 2011 at 09:42 AM
It manifestly is not “disingenuous” to insist there was no error. There was no error. I do find it disingenuous that a writer for the CJR downplays the CJR’s role in this fiasco.
#5 Posted by Joe Clark, CJR on Fri 11 Nov 2011 at 09:46 AM
A few points, for clarity's sake:
1. Erika Fry, the CJR assistant editor whose questions to Julie Moos triggered this affair, never used the word "plagiarism." Plagiarism is taking somebody else's words and ideas and representing them as your own. The whole point of aggregation at Poynter is to credit and point to other people's reporting, and nobody got misled by Poynter about who did the original reporting. Nor did Justin Peters use the word plagiarism. Both spoke of sloppy attribution practices. Which do matter, though not as much as plagiarism.
2. Erika's piece about all this will be posted later today, but it's important to note that she was asking about a lot more than attribution practices, but about other and somewhat more serious problems with the new model at the Poynter site, Romenesko+.
3. To the extent that she did ask about attribution, she was not asking only about Jim Romenesko's work, but about other writers at Poynter as well. It is Julie Moos who put the focus soley on Jim, and on attribution.
4. As far as we can tell, these problems began when the Poynter site changed this fall, when what had been Jim's short, sharp, and well-written blurb's about stories (including CJRs, many many times), turned long and bloated. While Fry has been told that this change was not deliberate, a reader can't help but notice that Jim and his new co-bloggers all moved in the same direction, and at the same time.
5. Out central problem is that with its long posts of recent months, Poynter over-aggregates. It supplies so much of somebody else's story that a reader often has no need to click through and go to that story. So instead of a giver of readership and traffic, Poytner could become a taker. That is the more serious part of our complaint, and it's not trivial, particularly for an institution that is all about ethics.
6. Julie Moos seems to have so far recognized only the attribution problem, and then publicly laid it at Jim Romenesko's feet, rather than accept it as a possible problem for Poytner, found a way to fix it, and moved on. We have no idea why it got elevated into a situation that brought about Jim's total resignation. Which we are sorry to see. I have read Romo for years. He is an innovator who performed a great service. And he has always treated CJR well, and with respect.
7. I also like Bill Dedman, but he should read Erika's post when we get it up, so he better knows what he's talking about.
#6 Posted by Mike Hoyt, CJR on Fri 11 Nov 2011 at 09:49 AM
Amen, Justin. I love reading Romenesko's summaries and often did not click through to the original source doc. His copy came across as if it was his own words and, yes, others "...doth protest too much." Bottom line: if you use another person's words verbatim, put them in quotes or add them to the byline. It's not rocket science and it's not a gray area. It's the ethical thing to do, period.
#7 Posted by It's me, CJR on Fri 11 Nov 2011 at 10:00 AM
Thank you, Mike, for important clarity on this, and for significant distinctions. Hope your piece will be just as clear that the issue you are raising-- which is hardly unique to Poynter-- is a very different matter from plagiarism. That problem goes to the heart of the uneasy relationship between aggregators and original content creators. Nor, as I hope Erika's piece will also emphasize, is the aggregation issue you raise at all resolved by the use of quotation marks.
#8 Posted by Dick Tofel, CJR on Fri 11 Nov 2011 at 10:19 AM
I have no problem with the CJR reporter asking any questions she likes. As I wrote, this CJR post distorts the objections to Poynter's posts, apparently to minimize them.
#9 Posted by Bill Dedman, CJR on Fri 11 Nov 2011 at 10:29 AM
This piece is a striking example of how the thinkers in journalism have yet again failed to grasp the Internet. More than a decade later after Romenesko began and people still don't even understand the fundamental difference between text and hypertext. Framing Romenesko's posts as nothing more than print matter that happens to show up on your electronic computer screen before ripping into its "sloppy attribution" is akin to condemning a TV station for plagiarism for showing a closeup of a newspaper article. They are fundamentally different mediums with different contexts and conveyances. You think a publication that just published a giant piece on how the Merc and Knight-Ridder failed to get the Internet would understand that.
#10 Posted by Dan Nguyen, CJR on Fri 11 Nov 2011 at 10:33 AM
The two dogs that aren't barking here are
1. Google
2. The Poynter Board
As a sometimes aggregator myself (at FutureOfCapitalism.com) I know that aggregation is not good for search engines. Write a long item and it shows up higher in the search engines. Write a short item linking to someone else and you aren't going to get much search-driven traffic. So I wouldn't be surprised if the Google algorithm (rather than reader service) is what was dictating some of the changes at the Romenesko site.
Second, and relatedly, Poynter is a non-profit. The way to drive traffic to those paid job ads and to show the board you are growing traffic is to have longer posts that make people go to the site itself, rather than short aggregation posts that allow people following Romenesko via an RSS reader to skip the Poynter site altogether and go directly to the aggregated copy.
Finally, let me add my name to the long list of those whose work has been aggregated or linked to by Romenesko, who appreciated the traffic, and who has no complaint with the way I was treated.
#11 Posted by Ira Stoll, CJR on Fri 11 Nov 2011 at 10:49 AM
Not a good tactic to follow Julie Moos into...disingenuous. Straw man? Create nonexistent problem so you can attack it? Self-interested p.r. masked as journalism? Replacing a tight, useful blog format with a bloated format = Classic Coke/New Coke debacle? CJR wading into a personnel dispute that has alienated much of the media world may have seemed necessary to you, but won't win friends and supporters.
#12 Posted by Ed Battle, CJR on Fri 11 Nov 2011 at 11:30 AM
Poynter has just Qwikstered itself in under 24 hours.
So when do we get to read Erika Fry's story? Because the nitpicky obtuseness in this piece doesn't seem to have changed many minds. And the thinly veiled suggestion that hundreds of journalists are sticking up for Romenesko because he's "famous" is not only insulting, but it's dumb. Sportswriters certainly didn't stick up for Mitch Albom because he's famous.
It looks like the CJR, having watched Julie Moos/Poynter light up an exploding cigar with predictable results, is now saying "Give us a hit off that."
#13 Posted by Kevin Allman, CJR on Fri 11 Nov 2011 at 11:47 AM
Jim Romenesko is famous everyone! I hope he doesn't get mobbed the next time he goes to the mall. Sigh. This is just more evidence of the inside-baseball culture of journalism that is so concerned about staring at their own navels that they don't into account what readers out in the real world think. Meanwhile, the audience will move onto Jim's new blog and watch Poynter and CJR continue to twist themselves into knots.
#14 Posted by Mike Koehler, CJR on Fri 11 Nov 2011 at 11:58 AM
Using quote marks to signal to the reader that these are the exact words of someone else is a basic rule of journalism, one that holds regardless of platform. If this is splitting hairs then the industry is in more trouble than we thought.
Whether this is plagiarism and whether Romenesko should have lost his job are worthy topics of debate. But that what he did was wrong is not debatable.
#15 Posted by Tim Cotter, CJR on Fri 11 Nov 2011 at 12:07 PM
Well put, Tim.
#16 Posted by Justin Martin, CJR on Fri 11 Nov 2011 at 12:26 PM
Romenesko "famous"? Really?
Well known within the shtetl of a certain part of journalism, maybe. I've never met the guy but he strikes me honest guy plying honest trade honestly.
Meanwhile, Justin Peters offers an indignant war dance because journos are defending Romenesko and criticizing his critics by name.
As if?
We write and put our bylines on things. If people disagree with us, they name us. We name them. Kool & the gang. It beats hurling spears at each other.
So lemme toss another rhetorical brick or two: Moos, and, yes, Peters practice green eye shade press criticism of a most enervating and frivolous sort. (I'm no great fan of Jack Shafer's plagiarism fundamentalism, but that's at least a much higher order debate). Stoll, a fellow I often don't agree with, makes a very intelligent point about Google and algorithims, so if we're to spend more mind-numbing moments on this, that's probably a good place to look.
But mainly, we collectiely inhabit an apartment building with multiple floors on fire and we're hopping around on the heads of these pins? Really?
#17 Posted by Michael Powell, CJR on Fri 11 Nov 2011 at 12:58 PM
Jim Romenesko is famous?
Anyway... Poynter should have dealt with this issue behind closed doors. Romenesko is a gossip blog for journalists, not some major news outlet like the New York Times or Washington Post, where an error is discovered and you run a correction. Juiie Moos should have run her "correction" in private, so Jim could make adjustments. Poorly handled.
#18 Posted by WordTurd, CJR on Fri 11 Nov 2011 at 01:14 PM
"Using quote marks to signal to the reader that these are the exact words of someone else is a basic rule of journalism, one that holds regardless of platform."
No, Tim, that is a basic rule of written English. It doesn't apply to journalism done in broadcast, for example.
And while that may seem a pedantic point, having to mention it only underscores that there is a continuing inability to grasp the inherent differences between content on the Web compared to content in print. In the case of Romenesko, the main difference involves the most basic building block of the Web: the hyperlink. If the text of his blog post were instead printed on paper, then yes, the amount that he excerpts without careful attribution would be unacceptable. But in the decade that I've read his blog, it has been clear that the content of his posts have always served as a billboard to the original content. The hyperlink is what makes the difference.
Julie Moos would disagree with your opinion on quotation marks, as she writes: "Our practice is to enclose verbatim language in quotation marks, and to set off longer excerpts in blockquotes."
Blockquotes, which do not exist in the English grammatical handbook, have been an accepted form of quotation-mark-like-attribution in visual layout both in print and on the web.
So it is not the quotation mark *characters* themselves that denote quoted material; they are just symbols for that semantic meaning, a meaning that can be conveyed by non-quotation-mark means, like blockquote formatting.
So then, why isn't it possible that a Romenesko post *itselfs* conveys the same meaning? And that when you read it, you think: "This post contains the salient excerpt(s) from a piece that Romenekso has pulled out." Just as when you see an inset paragraph inside a slightly gray box, you think: "There are no quotation marks around this text yet I assume that this is a direct quote."
The legitimate issue that others, including the author of this piece, have mistakenly conflated is whether or not a Romenesko post includes too much of the source material that it reduces the desire for a reader to click-through. That is definitely a topic worthy of debate, but not one to to be conflated with the grave sin of plagiarism.
I will admit that I don't frequently click through to the original articles linked by Romenesko. I've read Romenesko since college and had been used to clicking on a headline and being taken directly to the source material. Since Poynter's redesign, though, clicking on a Romenekso headline now takes you to that same Romenesko post, even if the post was just a blurb. I've since nearly stopped clicking through and I can see why authors would now feel that they're being screwed by Romenesko. So whose design decision was it to change the link behavior? And if it wasn't Romenesko's, should the decision-maker also stand under the cloud of plagiarism/sloppy journalism?
#19 Posted by Dan Nguyen, CJR on Fri 11 Nov 2011 at 01:21 PM
I'm amazed by the amount of passive aggressive drivel in this article. Jim is "famous" - "the blogosphere cries foul". Give me a break. Jim drove traffic to sites. He didn't do it to take any credit. Jim wrote for professional journalists and writers. He gave the summary needed and left the rest up to us with multiple links. I visited many sites I would have never visited and read many writers I would have never read if it were not for Jim Romenesko. This "blogosphere" everyone wants to discredit is part of not just the future of journalism but also the present.
No, I didn't learn how to blog in journalism classes in college because there were no blogs then. That doesn't mean we should bemoan the decline of the newspaper and put down our pens in defeat - it means we should adapt and move forward. Jim did it years before many of the rest of us did and he should be applauded for it.
#20 Posted by Jason Reese, CJR on Fri 11 Nov 2011 at 02:21 PM
Maybe aggregation as writing is a different art. Not higher, lower, just different.
For me, aggregation is "what the writer says" plus "what the reader finds" when the link is clicked. The text, if you will, is both of those things joined together in a fluid whole. Evaluating a given act of aggregation means putting those two things (Romenesko's posts plus what you find when you click) together and thinking carefully about the results.
For example, if one of the things you find when you click the link is that the reader gains nothing because it was all strip-minded, that's over-aggregation, and it deserves to be criticized.
I think some of what puzzles Justin could be understood a little better if we thought this way about aggregation as writing.
#21 Posted by Jay Rosen, CJR on Fri 11 Nov 2011 at 03:00 PM
Peters' piece, like Silverman's piece, is more mental masturbation signifying nothing. In a long line of ridiculous journalism "scandals," this one wins the booby prize. We have so much gutlessness, laziness, incompetence, and stupidity in the media, and Moos and Fry are wasting precious time complaining about something that thousands of journalists have read for 15 years and never seen a problem with? How about spending the time instead reporting some stories that make a difference in the world? Pshew.
#22 Posted by Harris Meyer, CJR on Fri 11 Nov 2011 at 03:16 PM
General points, then specific responses.
1. Maybe I wasn't clear in my post, so I'll be very clear now: In my opinion, the actions which prompted Romo's resignation aren't a huge deal. They don't amount to plagiarism. They don't amount to a fireable offense. That said, while it's possible that I'm missing something here, I still don't understand why so many are so adamant that there was no error. It's standard practice to use quotation marks when you're using somebody else's words. Maybe it's not as much of an issue when you're just giving a link and a line or two of summary, as Romenesko did for years and years and years. But when, as Romo recently did, you shift to giving long, often multi-paragraph recaps of articles such that the aggregated summary starts to resemble an article itself, then I think you have a responsibility to alert the reader when the words you're using are not your own.
2. I'll walk back the line about how everyone was angry at Julie Moos "for having the gall to publicly criticize Jim Romenesko, who is famous." I can't get inside people's heads, and I shouldn't have reduced the debate to that. But you can't have followed the debate yesterday and today without coming away with the sense that Romenesko's high profile and good reputation caused a lot of people to give him the benefit of the doubt, and that similar actions from a lesser-known blogger might not have been as well-received. I think Justin Martin put it well in a tweet yesterday: "If @ErikaFry's, not @Romenesko's, blog, were under microscope, would percentages of support be the same?" And, no, Romenesko is not famous in the actor/athlete sense. But in the journalism community, he's a star.
@Bill Dedman: There have been plenty of comments on Twitter to support the contention that people were and are angry at Julie Moos because of her post. Felix Salmon: "I can't believe how angry I am at @juliemmoos." Sean Harder: @juliemmoos "hope you're proud of yoruself. Maybe one day someone will attempt to destroy your good name before you retire too. #karma" @geneweingarten: "I think we should all mail @juliemoos a strand of hair, so she can split 'em for us." There are more.
@Joe Clark: Guh? CJR's "role in this fiasco" was exactly what I said it was. We requested an interview, for a story we are writing about a journalism blog, in our capacity as a publication that writes about journalism.
@Dan Nguyen: Thank you for explaining the Internet to me.
@Ira Stoll: Great point, and one that deserves to be discussed at greater length.
@Kevin Allman: You're right, sportswriters didn't stick up for Mitch Albom, who is more famous that Jim Romenesko will ever be. But -- and I'm honestly asking -- do you think that sportswriters would've stuck up for him if MItch Albom had also, for years, run a popular blog that consistently directed traffic and attention to their work? Might that not make them feel a bit better-disposed to him? I'm honestly asking. I don't know if that's part of what's been going on with the Romenesko thing. But I think it's a valid question to ask.
#23 Posted by Justin Peters, CJR on Fri 11 Nov 2011 at 03:59 PM
My last comment was truncated, so I'm posting the remainder here.
@Michael Powell: Frivolous, enervated, and indignant describes me pretty well, although you forgot "slovenly." More seriously, though, I've got no problem with people criticizing Julie Moos, Jim Romenesko, me, or anybody else. It comes with the job, and if we're not capable of defending ourselves, then we shouldn't have put ourselves into a position where we need to be defended. But it's also fair to disagree with the criticisms, and to express that disagreement in written form, even if the result comes across as so much pin-hopping.
@Jay Rosen: A good, thoughtful point, and very well put. I think your formula makes a lot of sense.
@Harris Meyer: Your point is fatuous. This is the website of a journalism review, charged with covering events that happen in the world of journalism. The resignation of Jim Romenesko is a notable event in the world of journalism; for us, it's made even more notable because we find ourselves at the center of the story. This is exactly the sort of story that we are supposed to cover. And you're certainly aware that a publication can cover more than one story at a time, right? On CJR alone today we've got stories addressing an AP story on cost-of-living adjustments, coverage of the Thailand flood, the mechanics of founding a new sports journalism site, and coverage of the GOP debate, just to name a few, and I'm not even mentioning any of the pieces we've been posting from our fiftieth anniversary issue.
#24 Posted by Justin Peters, CJR on Fri 11 Nov 2011 at 04:09 PM
Yes, Justin, there are many comments showing that people are angry with Julie. No one has suggested otherwise.
I pointed out that those people are not angry with her because Romenesko is, as you say, "famous." And they're not angry with her because she criticized Romenesko. They're angry with her because she acted like the sort of boss no one would ever want to have, throwing her employee under the bus for something he had quite openly been doing for 12 years.
It's good to see you're starting to understand how much BS this was: "The article made a lot of people very angry—primarily at Julie Moos, a woman whom nobody knows, for having the gall to publicly criticize Jim Romenesko, who is famous."
Yes, people were angry. No, not for the reason you put forth. See?
(Mike, no, I didn't conflate this post with the CJR reporter's inquiry. I didn't cancel my longtime subscription to CJR when I learned that CJR's reporter had sent questions over to Poynter. Whatever your reporter writes from that inquiry will be judged on the merits. I canceled my subscription when I read this post by Justin Peters, a post constructed to minimize the concerns of journalists.)
#25 Posted by Bill Dedman, CJR on Fri 11 Nov 2011 at 04:13 PM
Bill, I think by saying "They're angry with her because she acted like the sort of boss no one would ever want to have," you're doing the exact same thing that I was doing when I said people are angry at her "for having the gall to publicly criticize Jim Romenesko, who is famous" -- namely, making universal assumptions with no strong supporting evidence. I could probably argue my case just as well as you could argue yours, but I'm happy to forego the guesswork and leave it at "People were angry at Julie Moos."
#26 Posted by Justin Peters, CJR on Fri 11 Nov 2011 at 04:25 PM
1.By David Kidwell, Chicago Tribune reporter
November 8, 2011
[The mayor refused Tribune requests for his emails, government cellphone bills and his interoffice communications with top aides, arguing it would be too much work to cross out information the government is allowed to keep private. After lengthy negotiations to narrow its request for two months of these records, the newspaper was told that almost all of the emails had been deleted.]
2.by Jim Romenesko
Published Nov. 9, 2011 8:58 am
Updated Nov. 9, 2011 9:04 am
[Chicago Tribune
The Tribune says Mayor Rahm Emanuel refused its requests for his emails, government cellphone bills and his interoffice communications with top aides, arguing it would be too much work to cross out information the government is allowed to keep private. After lengthy negotiations to narrow its request for two months of these records, the paper was told that almost all of the emails had been deleted.]
This in Jim: "After lengthy negotiations to narrow its request for two months of these records...". I am a bit sympathetic to the Jim R. cause, but I do not like his method at all. He might argue that indirect speech (with a report verb) is tantamount to quoting.
But if you read "After lengthy negotiations to narrow its request for two months of these records," in Jim R., it looks like objective reporting on the part of Jim R. This is not right.
Part of the issue, I think, is that the teaching of quoting in America, in the context of poor English curricula and trashy standardized tests such as the SAT, is just bad. (Perhaps that lack of sensitivity is reflected in the dearth of past complaints about Jim R).
Students should be taught to pay careful attention to reporting, whether direct, indirect, or free indirect. It is a subtle and rewarding area of English grammar. I had a student write sentences from the word lists in the little COBUILD guide to report structures. He was then praised in university for his sentences. The 2011 COBUILD English Grammar has the best introduction to reported clauses.
When teachers are working with a novel such as "No Country for Old Men," they should have the students focus minutely on reporting. It just is not getting done in most of the schools.
CJR has to be penetrating in its analyses. Otherwise, it may as well close. The CJR Fry story, though, should not still be forthcoming. It is urgently important to get ahead of the cycle. If not now, when?
#27 Posted by Clayton Burns, CJR on Fri 11 Nov 2011 at 04:53 PM
At long last, Erika's piece is up.
#28 Posted by Justin Peters, CJR on Fri 11 Nov 2011 at 04:59 PM
Strange how nobody at Poynter had a problem with Jim until he was set to open up a, nominally, competing website that threatened their bottom line. In a second stunning turn of events, this article circles the wagons in the face of criticism and attempts to shift the narrative to "stop being mean to Julie".
#29 Posted by Archibald, CJR on Fri 11 Nov 2011 at 05:06 PM
Justin, The point is that we expect CJR to stand up for journalistic principles, to examine them, not to ridicule them. To score points for your argument you took pains to diminish the reasons that we were all stating, quite clearly, in the comments on the Poynter article itself, in blogs, on Twitter, etc. Those reasons are good reasons, journalistic reasons, to object: It was shabby treatment of a valued and trustworthy employee. It was nitpicking. No one was misled. It was Moos, not Romenesko, that recently redesigned the site so the items no longer link from the headline to the linked article. Etc.
Yes, people are angry at Julie and Poynter. But they're more embarrassed for them, and saddened for them. To have gotten an inquiry from CJR on Wednesday evening, and to have stepped on Jim Romenesko's reputation by Thursday morning, was shameful.
(P.S. Check that stylebook entry for forego vs. forgo.)
#30 Posted by Bill Dedman, CJR on Fri 11 Nov 2011 at 05:08 PM
Applying the justifiably rigorous standards of plagiarism to what is essentially a trade blog is like sending in the FBI to bust up a nickel-and-dime poker game among old friends. Let's get real. Nobody sampled Romenesko's offerings without knowing exactly what they were getting. And anyone who insists on pursuing this as a serious ethics issue is indulging in the journalistic equivalent of getting to the bottom of Russian nesting doll.
#31 Posted by Mike McIntire, CJR on Fri 11 Nov 2011 at 05:20 PM
This is about clarity, not plagiarism. Using quotes around directly quoted material is a basic rule of journalism.
Romenesko obviously wasn't trying to mislead anyone. The nature of his site is known to the reader. Was his laxity with quote marks worth this huge kerfuffle? Of course not. His editor should've sent him a private one-sentence memo.
One alarming thing in the reaction: The notion that, because it's the internet, "a different medium," we ought not to worry so much about basic journalism standards.
#32 Posted by Gar Joseph, CJR on Fri 11 Nov 2011 at 05:39 PM
Hi Justin. It's not just the blogosphere that is crying foul. It's actually the blogosphere that is full of plagiarists and over-aggregators(see "Huffington Post" for starters). It is journalists who are cryinig foul about Romenesko. We hate plagiarists. We want to see them burn. We see our work stolen every day on the web (as it was in the past by TV, radio and the AP). We see our colleagues fired piecemeal around the country and management rip off the carcasses of the companies they have destroyed by giving themselves huge bonuses. You could always find that at Romenesko. If an alt-weekly had six people being laid off in some New Times outpost, Romenesko had it. Here's a test: I would like to hear from one person who Romenesko linked to who thinks they were ripped off.
#33 Posted by H. Barca, CJR on Fri 11 Nov 2011 at 06:34 PM
Dedman: CJR did exactly what it should do; we asked questions about dubious practices that have cropped up on the Poynter site since Jim Romenesko stepped partway back from it in late August. We stood up for journalists and journalistic practices, which is our job. We shouldn't get blamed for what people at Poynter subsequently wrote and did. Maybe you should read Erika's piece and re-read Justin's, who ridiculed nobody and made a strong and reasonable argument about the importance of standards in aggregating, even in attribution, the least of Poynter's problems. The need for standards in aggregating is the takeaway here, in my book. Jim Romenesko is an innovator and a convener and did a lot of good for a lot of years, and when he stepped back, the standards at the blog changed, and not for the better.
#34 Posted by Mike Hoyt, CJR on Fri 11 Nov 2011 at 07:37 PM
I guess I'm supposed to feel warm and fuzzy and protective and align myself with other journalists in some sort of guild-ish outrage over Romenesko's firing. But I can't. It's fucking plagiarism, plain and simple, and proves that for the past 12 years he's been doing something less than journalism. Hell, there are half-ass celeb bloggers who credit sourced material better than this guy. Not only that, they didn't even edit him. ("He steals everything. Just skip it.") What a mess from all angles.
Also, Dedman you're making zero sense. You've got a shiny Pulitzer on your shelf and you need to remember the hard-earned sourcing that went into earning it. Quit apologizing for a lazy blogger. It's silly.
#35 Posted by Fred, CJR on Fri 11 Nov 2011 at 09:51 PM
http://www.cjr.org/behind_the_news/the_romenesko_saga.php
Erika Fry's piece makes a strong case that the actual problem was the change in the Poynter medianews site that resulted in longer, "overaggregated" items -- what we in the real world always called violations of the fair use rule. Julie Moos is in charge of the site. Jim Romenesko ran the site for a dozen years and did not engage in these fair use violations, Fry states. While Moos claims there was "no conscious decision" [PLEASE NOTE THAT I PUT THAT IN QUOTES] to make pieces longer, that dog won't hunt. She is in charge and it was under her watch that this problem arose. Therefore, and I say this in all seriousness, Julie Moos should resign. Other media figures have been asked to resign for less. And BTW, I apologize for jumping to conclusions about what Fry was saying about Romenesko, based on the allusion to Fry in the wretched Julie Moos piece on Poynter.
#36 Posted by Harris Meyer, CJR on Fri 11 Nov 2011 at 10:22 PM
Although I'd never heard or Romanesko or Poynter until today, I can see what he did wrong. But they fired him? Couldn't someone have just said, "Jim, please use quotation marks from now on."
Journalism doesn't make any sense. None of this makes sense. I heard about this other journalist getting fired a few weeks ago: http://gawker.com/5854118/how-occupy-wall-street-cost-me-my-job The honest thing would have been to allow her to state her position on OWS publicly so that people would know where she was coming from in her reporting.
I understand firing lazy people, but firing talented people? They'll just go and publish their material elsewhere. What a mess. Journalism is a mess.
#37 Posted by Alexa, CJR on Sat 12 Nov 2011 at 12:26 AM
[The need for standards in aggregating is the takeaway here, in my book. Jim Romenesko is an innovator and a convener and did a lot of good for a lot of years, and when he stepped back, the standards at the blog changed, and not for the better.]
#34 Posted by Mike Hoyt on Fri 11 Nov 2011 at 07:37 PM
"The need for standards in aggregating."
I would strongly recommend that journalism students develop original media reading cycles and avoid aggregation sites. I do not need anyone to chew my food over for me.
It takes a long time and hard work to master time zones and the culture of international journalism. I can't see what aggregation adds to it. So I think that aggregation issues are artificial for serious readers.
Nonetheless, I would be interested in Mike Hoyt's analysis of needed aggregation standards in the aftermath of Jim R.'s turmoil. (I would suggest that Jim is being curiously defensive about his mishap).
#38 Posted by Clayton Burns, CJR on Sat 12 Nov 2011 at 12:38 AM
Your final comments, betray the fact that you seem to be quite envious and jealous of Jim, simply because he became well known, while you toil in relative obscurity, how sad...
#39 Posted by Adam levine, CJR on Sat 12 Nov 2011 at 01:51 AM
"... Romenesko+ extended summaries are long enough to give readers little reason to click through to the original article. " - can't confirm that. I always visited the original site. Jim Romenesko rose my appetite to read more. So this is only an assumption.
"practice ... to say things in your own words" - Can be helpful if readers are interested in YOUR opinion on a subject, but misses the demand for short excerpts which reflects the original tone of a piece in a context of similar articles (aggregation)
That's basically why I still think Jim Romenesko's blog posts are of a different style addressing different needs, which have not been discussed so far.
- Steffen Konrath
Blog: http://www.nextlevelofnews.com
Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/stkonrath
#40 Posted by Steffen Konrath, CJR on Sat 12 Nov 2011 at 05:47 AM
My 2 cents on this heated debate: quotes are desirable, but not always practical in new media forms.
For example, quotes can't easily be included on Twitter or conversational social media. And in the new form Romanesko was pioneering, it would create unsightly visual clutter to put quotes everywhere.
So I advise flexibility -- use quotes when you can, but don't make it a hard rule for this new form -- and above all, be transparent about evolving standards and label experiments as such.
That said, I think some people went overboard in their attacks against Julie Moos, and should consider a public apology. Nobody deserves to be treated this way -- particularly by fellow journalists, who should know better.
#41 Posted by Fabrice Florin, CJR on Sat 12 Nov 2011 at 01:41 PM
@Gar Joseph: Agree that it wasn't worth this huge kerfuffle. But I think the reaction to the kerfuffle has been interesting, and I think that nothing but good can come out of an open discussion of the standards and practices of online journalism. I wish that it hadn't taken Romenesko's resignation to spark that discussion, though.
@H. Barca: Here's a better test, maybe, though one that would be hard to actually deploy. Take any given media story of the sort that Romenesko would link to and put it up on Poynter in two different formats: a link and a couple of lines of description/commentary (i.e., the format that Romenesko used for years and years) and a link followed by several paragraphs of description/commentary (i.e., the current format of the Romenesko+ blog). See which format sends the most traffic back to the original story. Would a journalist feel ripped off if there was a significant disparity there?
@Harris Meyer: Thanks, Harris.
@Clayton Burns: I'll ask Mike if he wants to expand his thoughts about aggregation standards for online journalism.
@Steffen Konrath: You're right. It's an assumption. For what it's worth, though, the average traffic that CJR receives from Romenesko+ links has definitely declined since the blog changed over the summer. I know that this has happened to other people's sites, too.
And while I admittedly made a stupid orthographic mistake in an earlier comment, the Oxford English Dictionary does list "forego" as an acceptable alternate spelling for "forgo." Perhaps in future editions, "Dedmanesque" will be listed as an acceptable alternate spelling for "patronizing."
#42 Posted by Justin Peters, CJR on Sat 12 Nov 2011 at 10:19 PM
The longer this goes on, the more it reminds me of any number of Western movies where the protagonist is an old cowboy/explorer getting hemmed in by the new towns and ranches. Romenesko set up his blog when the Internet was mostly unexplored territory and stayed pretty consistent with how it ran for many, many years. Those of us who wandered into his little trading post knew what we were getting. But yes, the towns and farms have filled in around him. His blog attained an unusual power. [Insert a Law West of the Pecos metaphor here.] And yes, it's probably best that the older blogs now conform to more standard journalistic practice. But this was a crummy way to make the point. Moos could have asked Romenesko to write a short explanation of the history of the blog, along with an acknowledgement that going forward the quotes would have quote marks. That would have been an interesting addition to the history of early Internet journalism, and would have taken care of the problem.
#43 Posted by Jeffrey Weiss, CJR on Sun 13 Nov 2011 at 01:13 PM
Thanks, Justin!
P.S. You don't mean alternate spelling, but alternative.
#44 Posted by Bill Dedman, CJR on Sun 13 Nov 2011 at 09:42 PM
Bill, You could get into a fix with your pronouncements about words:
http://www.onelook.com/?w=alternate&ls=a
Cobuild Student Dictionary for Learners of English:
[adj before n In American English, alternate is used to describe something that can exist or you can do instead of something else. The British word is alternative. He also sent Congress an alternate version of the bill.]
(P.S. Check that stylebook entry for forego vs. forgo.)
#30 Posted by Bill Dedman on Fri 11 Nov 2011 at 05:08 PM
You should perform the www.onelook.com test on that one as well.
If you are hunting through your style book online (not 'cutting' and pasting, I hope), you should instead educate yourself about corpus dictionaries. I suggest starting with the Longman Dictionary of Contemporary English. Since you are so advanced, with its CD, then. Any of the COBUILD or Oxford or Cambridge advanced learner's dictionaries would be excellent as backup).
This word labyrinth mindset would be a good subject for an investigative journalist. Why can't Americans understand how to integrate the best products from corpus linguistics, the COBUILD English Grammar and Longman dictionary here? Why do they think GMAT English is real? What are the opportunity costs? Minutiae of the linguistic authoritarian kind are deadening. That's how the dead man got his dead man's eye.
#45 Posted by Clayton Burns, CJR on Sun 13 Nov 2011 at 10:39 PM
I would understand if had used an excerpt or a couple of paragraphs then clearly stated that the rest of the article was accessible via the following link....he just didn't! That's called plagiarism.
http://academicplagiarism.com
#46 Posted by Ray, CJR on Tue 15 Nov 2011 at 09:34 PM
#46 Ray: It is not an academic matter. I do not think that charges of plagiarism against Jim can be substantiated. It therefore puts you in a dicey position to make such a statement. You should remember that Jim is skilled at developing information. (There is no guarantee that you can hide behind "Ray.")
If this line of pursuit below is real, who knows what could come of it? I recommend that you not do this again. Of course, it is up to you. But Jim could be rolling out this method now for obvious use later on. Clayton.
http://muckrack.com/romenesko/statuses/136514233616700000
We've got you covered: check out the Muck Rack Daily, an email digest of journalists on Twitter.
Find out more →
Lots of emails re Fox News flack Irena Briganti coming in. To those asking: Prefer on the rec., but not-for-attribution stories welcome.
about 11 hours ago
Jim Romenesko
Senior Media Reporter
Poynter Online
#47 Posted by Clayton Burns, CJR on Wed 16 Nov 2011 at 12:33 AM
http://insidecablenews.wordpress.com/2011/11/15/get-irena-briganti/
Get Irena Briganti?
Jim Romenesko tweeted the following today…
Want to hear from TV writers, others about dealings with Fox News’ Irena Briganti. Anecdotes, email exchanges pls. THX jim@jimromenesko.com
Lots of emails re Fox News flack Irena Briganti coming in. To those asking: Prefer on the rec., but not-for-attribution stories welcome.
[I have no idea what put a bur under Romenesko’s saddle regarding Briganti…but this has the potential of being really explosive. But I would expect FNC to not sit around waiting for what might come its way and put out a pre-emptive strike on Romenesko.]
#48 Posted by Clayton Burns, CJR on Wed 16 Nov 2011 at 12:42 AM
http://twitter.com/#!/romenesko
Romenesko
@romenesko
JimRomenesko.com (coming soon)
http://www.jimromenesko.com
romenesko Romenesko
Lots of emails re Fox News flack Irena Briganti coming in. To those asking: Prefer on the rec., but not-for-attribution stories welcome.
11 hours ago
#49 Posted by Clayton Burns, CJR on Wed 16 Nov 2011 at 12:53 AM
I think reasonable minds can disagree as to whether Romenesko's methods crossed the line. But what is most mystifying to me is that Moos was shocked, shocked to find this going on in her backyard. Either she is guilty of lax supervison of her underlings ("should have known") or she did know and was panicked by the impending revelations from the Columbia person. It's all rather like Reagan on Iran-Contra, she's damned in both instances. Worse, though, is her pathetic attempt to replace Romenesko with her own plodding pontifications. Seems to me we have a case of: if you can't hack it in journalism, you go into teaching it.
#50 Posted by jonesgw, CJR on Thu 17 Nov 2011 at 02:12 PM
This is a decent discussion, although it's plagued with some of the same inaccuracies that lazy journalists seem too happy to embrace when they want to make a point.
First, Romenesko wasn't fired, according to his account and to Poynter's account. Claiming he was is false.
The biggest thing I've semi-discovered during this flap is how many aggregators think they are doing actual journalism, and that somehow Romenesko was not wrong to copy phrases verbatim, merely because he "provided links." He should have rewritten. The sooner more people realize that, the better off we'll be.
The passionate defenses of what Romenesko did are still puzzling to me. But I'll recycle an analogy I used before. (Analogies are dangerous around lazy-thinking journalists who like to take pride in "not understanding" something in order to more quickly criticize, but I'll take the risk.)
Someone once said people are often hesitant to criticize the wealthy in America, not because they support them or excuse their wrongs, but because they also want to become wealthy. I think that trait is evident here with the defenses of Romenesko.
He should have paraphrased and rewritten far more often than he did. The continued inability to realize that exposes another truth about a group taking shortcuts. We must conclude that aggregators, like designers and other charlatans and faux editors, are not really journalists if they cannot grasp the importance of rewriting.
#51 Posted by Robert Knilands, CJR on Fri 25 Nov 2011 at 12:02 AM
The amazing thing to me about all of this is the question that goes unasked: why didn't Romenesko just put the appropriate stuff in quotes? Why wouldn't anybody in that position use quotes?
Those familiar with Romo on a daily basis might know the drill but others (like moi) had no idea about the new rules that he deployed across the board, and I was the first guy to ever write a new media column about newspapers. Journalism, including aggregation, can't be an insider's game. There have to be standards—and the standards have to include ALL readers. Unfortunately, Romenesko made up his own rules.
I repeat: why wouldn't you put things that belong in quotes—in quotes? Please... someone wise me up on this.
#52 Posted by Michael Conniff, CJR on Tue 6 Dec 2011 at 06:48 PM