Barack Obama proposed his second stimulus last week, pitching a $450 billion measure. Or is it a jobs plan? Let’s say it’s both.
Last go-round, the economic legislation was called the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act, which just goes to show that the Democrats really are clueless when it comes to political language. That somehow never entered the national consciousness and I’ll bet you the vast majority of Americans driving bast those signs touting that this highway construction or that bridge fix is paid for by ARRA never knew that was the same thing as “the stimulus.”
Which is what the press and everybody else called the $800 billion legislation.
This time, though, the wonky Democrats who put the “Reinvestment” in ARRA seem to have learned their lesson. No fifty-dollar words (okay, ten-dollar) this time: It’s just American, jobs, and act. Frank Luntz would approve. And the Dems are staying on message.
Here’s how The Hill put it last week:
Rep. Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) and House Democrats have dropped the word “stimulus” from their vocabulary.
Though the House minority leader and her caucus are still pushing an economic stimulus agenda to save the economy, they’ve radically changed their rhetoric with the hope of winning over voters who saw “stimulus” as close to a dirty word.
Democrats are now being careful to frame their job-creation agenda in language excluding references to any stimulus, even though their favored policies for ending the deepest recession since the Great Depression are largely the same.
The press is playing along, showing clearly how it often lets governments shape the narrative. If you think this is a “liberal media” thing, think again. Recall the disastrous runup to the Iraq war.
I searched all major news and business publications on Factiva for stories with both stimulus and Obama in them during the past year and got this result:

Here’s what it looks like when I searched for Obama and “jobs plan” or “jobs bill”:

Now here are the same searches for the same period in 2008-09 (the bill passed in February—roughly the middle of the following two charts) . Obama and stimulus:

Obama and jobs plan or jobs bill:

A couple of things jump out. First: there’s been far less coverage of this plan than ARRA got back in 2009. That’s understandable since this one is basically DOA. The Dems controlled Congress and the presidency in 2009. The Republicans in charge today aren’t going to pass much of anything Obama proposes.
Second: The jobs language was barely used by the press back in 2009, but it dominates coverage of the 2011 proposal. Many or even most of the “Obama” and “stimulus” results this month are ones referring to the 2009 law, not the current proposal.
That the “jobs” phrasing went from virtually nothing to dominance shows how the press is swallowing the Democrats’ framing whole.
Now, is it wrong to call the proposal a “jobs plan”? Not necessarily. It is a plan to spur hiring after all, regardless of whether it works. The first stimulus increased employment by an estimated one million and three million jobs, according to the nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office.
But fewer than 600 of the “jobs plan” and “jobs bill” results this month, out of about 1,500, also use the word “stimulus.” That’s not good. Journalists should point out that this is a stimulus bill like the ARRA was.
What’s interests me most is that it shows just how dependent the press can be on politicians for framing and language. It’s no small difference to call something a “jobs plan”, which everyone can theoretically get behind, and a “stimulus”, which sounds vaguely pornographic.
And it’s happened as the president and Democrats have finally wised up about the importance of language.
Why, exactly, should journos "point out that this is a stimulus bill" @Ryan? You are calling for reporters to editorialize, and that is reportorial malpractice. The point of it is to spur hiring, which is what the name of the bill tries to convey. The first thing one must ask is whether the framing is *dishonest* framing. It isn't dishonest or misleading to talk about the legislation in terms of jobs.
By that measure, they shouldn't have written about the "Stimulus" bill but should have pointed out that it was a "State Government Bailout" bill. Where does it end?
#1 Posted by James, CJR on Thu 15 Sep 2011 at 07:01 AM
I think the framing demonstrates the power of the conservatives to influence the discussion turning perfectly good words like "stimulus" or "liberal" into slurs.
Because democrats prefer to avoid these rhetorical taintings instead of confront them, they constantly have to reinvent their language while dealing with the content of past speeches which came before the blacklisting of these terms.
Republicans also blacklist their own terms such as "social security privatization" and the press plays along with the luntz tested "savings account" language. What democrats have to learn to do is to define their terms and their opponents, not run away from them.
I just don't see that coming from the DLC.
#2 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Thu 15 Sep 2011 at 10:57 AM
One can hardly say that "American Jobs Act" is reinventing language, though. It has a lot more clarity in its purpose than "stimulus." In fact, so does "American Recovery and Reinvestment Act."
#3 Posted by James, CJR on Thu 15 Sep 2011 at 11:33 AM
Good post. It always bothered me that the MSM's narratives and modifiers so closely mimicked the Bush Administration's Orwellian framing. As we can see, it is the same or worse during Obama's term. It's awful but typical when the press gets ever cozier with the State.
#4 Posted by Dan A., CJR on Thu 15 Sep 2011 at 03:04 PM
Worth a read.
"What do the Democrats offer these people? Essentially nothing. Democratic Leadership Council-style "centrist" Democrats were among the biggest promoters of disastrous trade deals in the 1990s that outsourced jobs abroad: NAFTA, World Trade Organization, permanent most-favored-nation status for China. At the same time, the identity politics/lifestyle wing of the Democratic Party was seen as a too illegal immigrant-friendly by downscaled and outsourced whites.
While Democrats temporized, or even dismissed the fears of the white working class as racist or nativist, Republicans went to work. To be sure, the business wing of the Republican Party consists of the most energetic outsourcers, wage cutters and hirers of sub-minimum wage immigrant labor to be found anywhere on the globe. But the faux-populist wing of the party, knowing the mental compartmentalization that occurs in most low-information voters, played on the fears of that same white working class to focus their anger on scapegoats that do no damage to corporations' bottom lines: instead of raising the minimum wage, let's build a wall on the Southern border (then hire a defense contractor to incompetently manage it). Instead of predatory bankers, it's evil Muslims. Or evil gays. Or evil abortionists.
How do they manage to do this? Because Democrats ceded the field. Above all, they do not understand language. Their initiatives are posed in impenetrable policy-speak: the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act. The what? - can anyone even remember it? No wonder the pejorative "Obamacare" won out. Contrast that with the Republicans' Patriot Act. You're a patriot, aren't you? Does anyone at the GED level have a clue what a Stimulus Bill is supposed to be? Why didn't the White House call it the Jobs Bill and keep pounding on that theme?"
The whole article is good.
#5 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Thu 15 Sep 2011 at 09:55 PM
I agree, that was an excellent read. Interesting that it could not be run in a mainstream newspaper, eh? Where it would have gotten a lot more audience. As it is, only internet news junkies read it, and I doubt that any Democrats in communications shops did.
I don't disagree with it or you, @Thimbles. But let's be accurate. The thing wasn't named the Stimulus Bill. It was named the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act. Yes, maybe five words are too many, and they should have stuck with American Recovery Act. It's mainly the press and economists that were calling it the s-word. People like @Ryan here who insist on their own editorial framing. I'm waiting for a response from him to my perfectly legitimate question.
The problem is that Democrats aren't brutal enough to get their own message into the public discourse. You'd never see the mainstream press overriding a Republican-generated framing like that.
#6 Posted by James, CJR on Thu 15 Sep 2011 at 10:22 PM
Let's see...
We can either:
1. Snatch money from citizens to give the government to decide where to spend it to create jobs, OR
2. We can let free people keep their own money and spend it how they see fit in the free market.
WHAT makes you commie/liberals think that option 1 is better than option 2?
HUH?
#7 Posted by padikiller, CJR on Thu 15 Sep 2011 at 11:38 PM
Me, I'm from the school of thought that you explain the economics, since they aren't that hard to explain once you delve into them and show how they've functioned in other countries like Japan, terms from economics like "stimulus" are perfectly fine.
But the media and the democrats are pathetic at explaining anything and they cede the field allowing republicans to do the explaining and turn stimulus into a dirty word.
At which point, you should stop using the word stimulus even though Bush used it first in his cash back campaign right around the time they were pushing TARP. Common fricken sense, If you ain't gonna define a term, don't use it so that your craven enemies can later define it for you.
"2. We can let free people keep their own money and spend it how they see fit in the free market."
Assumption being that those "free people" aren't saddled with debt, unaffordable health care costs, and subsistence wages and have money to spend.
About 10% percent of the population don't even have jobs and many more are under employed.
Which was the conservatives' fault for trusting in bad economics like "We can let free people keep their own money and spend it how they see fit in the free market, therefore let's not monitor the free market, pass ridiculous tax cuts, and watch the global economy blow up". What makes you think the advice of stupid people will fix the problems created by stupid people? The same stupid people.
HUH?!
#8 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Fri 16 Sep 2011 at 12:06 PM
Thimbles is dodging again. Now the lowly people are too stupid to spend their own money....
Like the stupid people who dumped more than half a billion dollars of tax money into a solar cell company that they knew was a risky investment?
Like the stupid people who knew that Bernie Madoff was running a Ponzi scheme in 1999 but did nothing about it?
Like the stupid people who bailed out Wall Street? Or who paid truck drivers $700 a day to sit in hotels for months during Katrina?
Etc. Etc. Etc...
WHAT makes you think that the government can create jobs with money more efficiently, faster and in greater numbers than the private sector can?
HUH?
#9 Posted by padikiller, CJR on Fri 16 Sep 2011 at 12:15 PM
"Now the lowly people are too stupid to spend their own money."
See, only a very stupid person would read what I wrote that way. Because I need to repeat myself for the benefit of very stupid people:
"Assumption being that those "free people" aren't saddled with debt, unaffordable health care costs, and subsistence wages and have money to spend.
About 10% percent of the population don't even have jobs and many more are under employed."
And why is that?
It "was the conservatives' fault for trusting in bad economics like "We can let free people keep their own money and spend it how they see fit in the free market, therefore let's not monitor the free market, pass ridiculous tax cuts, and watch the global economy blow up"".
Why must you make me repeat myself. Would it help if I typed slower?
#10 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Fri 16 Sep 2011 at 12:50 PM
Thimbles blithered: Assumption being that those "free people" aren't saddled with debt, unaffordable health care costs, and subsistence wages and have money to spend
padikiller responds: ?????????????????????????????
Where in Hell does this "assumption" arise?
The money that goes into the free market comes mostly from successful people - not from unproductive people.
So does the tax money that goes into the Treasury - the wealthiest 1 % of Americans pay 37% of the income tax collected.
NEWSFLASH - The money that the government gets comes from productive, smart, successful people. Repeat this little slice of R E A L I T Y until your lips stop moving and then in just might take hold, Thimbo.
So, repeating the question, WHAT makes you think that the government can spend the money taken from successful, productive people and create jobs better or faster than these people can do in the free market?
HUH?
WHAT makes you think that creating new government bureaucracies and dumping more stimulus money down the union labor/public education drain will make private sector jobs faster than letting smart, successful productive people spend their own money as they see fit?
HUH?
#11 Posted by padikiller, CJR on Fri 16 Sep 2011 at 01:42 PM
Stimulus Stupidity, Illustrated:
Stimulus funding includes money towards the $750 million dollar plan to renovate the National Mall.
This comes to $2.5 MILLION per acre! (of mostly grass!)
That is more than $55 per square foot!...
#12 Posted by padikiller, CJR on Fri 16 Sep 2011 at 01:57 PM
"The money that the government gets comes from productive, smart, successful people. Repeat this little slice of R E A L I T Y until your lips stop moving and then in just might take hold, Thimbo."
These are the same productive people who gave half million dollar loans to homeless people so they could book a bonus and claim "What? WhadidIdo?Didn't I put it in a low enough tranche? Standards and Poor rated the CDO, not me. I covered my ass with a AIG CDS, why didn't the investors? Don't look at me!"
You people aren't productive, you are stupid, short sighted vampires and everybody else is taking the fall for your actions.
Those people, the middle class upon which whose demand the "free market" rests upon, those "free people" have no money because of you idiots. In which case who, if not the government, is going to spend the money necessary to keep the economy flowing and people working?
Are you? Didn't think so.
#13 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Fri 16 Sep 2011 at 02:23 PM
James,
It's not editorializing to call a stimulus bill a "stimulus." That's what it's called in economics, and in this case, that's what the press unanimously called the first one. To not call the second a "stimulus", then, is misleading.
#14 Posted by Ryan Chittum, CJR on Fri 16 Sep 2011 at 04:28 PM
@Ryan,
I disagree that it isn't editorializing. You noted in your piece that it is a word that few people outside politics and economics are familiar with and that it sounds "vaguely pornographic." So why use it? Why not recommend that it is a bill "meant to stimulate the economy through increased hiring and job growth" or better yet "a plan to spur hiring." Clearer is better, no?
Why insist that journos, who overuse the word and who actually set the framing on the first bill, use language that few readers understand, by your own admission? Because it sounds vaguely pornographic -- fun stuff to stick in your story! -- or it makes them seem smart to their readers, even when their reader don't know what they are talking about?
I think you are kind of off-base here, and your post reflects your inconsistency. Help me out here. Tell me again, why should reporters use this word that their readers don't really understand instead of describing the bill - the Jobs Bill -- as "a plan to spur hiring." I'm not getting your point.
(NOTE: Thanks for responding to my question.)
#15 Posted by James, CJR on Fri 16 Sep 2011 at 04:50 PM
The problem that the commie/liberals have with this "stimulus" through tax increase stupidity is that it has been debunked by a Harvard study:
"We examine the evidence on episodes of large stances in fiscal policy,
both in cases of fiscal stimuli and in that of fiscal adjustments in OECD
countries from 1970 to 2007. Fiscal stimuli based upon tax cuts are more
likely to increase growth than those based upon spending increases. As for
fiscal adjustments those based upon spending cuts and no tax increases are
more likely to reduce deficits and debt over GDP ratios than those based upon
tax increases. In addition, adjustments on the spending side rather than on
the tax side are less likely to create recessions. We confirm these results with simple regression analysis."
http://www.economics.harvard.edu/faculty/alesina/files/Large%2Bchanges%2Bin%2Bfiscal%2Bpolicy_October_2009.pdf
But hey! Why let the mere facts (and nearly 40 years of hard data) get in the way of another commie/liberal hornswoggle, right?
#16 Posted by padikiller, CJR on Fri 16 Sep 2011 at 05:22 PM
james actually wrote: Why not recommend that it is a bill "meant to stimulate the economy
padikiller scoffs: LOL!
So it's a non-stimulus that's meant to stimulate!
Too, too funny!
For once, Ryan is precisely right. This "jobs bill" is nothing but Stimulus II... More spending on unions, public education, "green" BS, etc..
With the requisite new bureaucracies and restrictions on employers, of course (notably a cause of action in federal court against any unemployed applicant who perceives that the employer denied the job because of employment status).
#17 Posted by padikiller, CJR on Fri 16 Sep 2011 at 05:34 PM
@Ryan,
Just curious.Are you and your colleagues okay with these trolls pissing all over your threads every day, talking and berating -- even stalking and threatening -- your commenters with their tiresome, senseless ad hominem attacks?
You know, it doesn't reflect well on Columbia Journalism Review and you fine journalists when you allow this kind of internet thuggery to hijack your site and shut down any semblance of rational discussion. Just like CNN helplessly allows rightwing talking heads to hijack debate by talking louder and more aggressively over the anchors, you are allowing the same thing here, in some kind of misguided notion of "free speech" you are actually killing it by allowing it to continue.
#18 Posted by James, CJR on Fri 16 Sep 2011 at 06:39 PM
When a leftist hits the Wall of Truth... A call for censorship always ensues.
Worked for Stalin and Mao... Might work here, too, right James?
A "non-stimulus" that is "meant to stimulate"....
Orwell has nothing on you guys!
I'd like to see an example of any threats made on this site. I've never seen one.
But why let the mere truth get in the way of another one of Jame's fairy tales?
#19 Posted by padikiller, CJR on Fri 16 Sep 2011 at 07:22 PM
@Ryan,
Suppose that you and your colleagues were holding a panel discussion on various topics of interest to your audience. Suppose every time someone in your audience rose up to ask a question, a group of ignorant trolls surrounded them, waving their arms, screaming commie/liberal!!!! and otherwise aggressively disrupting the attempt at discussion. The result of that behavior was that your audience was unable to pose the questions, and the panel was distracted from the topics of their expertise. This, of course, would be a win for the trollish bullies, because their aim is to shut down discussion, and it is working.
Would that be acceptable to you and your colleagues? Wouldn't you try to deal in some way with the bad behavior of these disruptive people? Or would you just throw up your hands and sigh "Free speech!"
Have you ever heard of "Broken Windows Syndrome"? You have a situation here where a group of people fling feces all over your site every day and you seem helpless to stop it. People's attempt to communicate with you or each other in a civil manner get drowned out by these tiresome trolls. Is that okay with you?
#20 Posted by James, CJR on Fri 16 Sep 2011 at 08:58 PM
LOL..
So... Using the term "commie/liberal" is "bad behavior" and "aggressive disruption"...
But calling out "ignorant" "tiresome trolls" - "bullies" who "fling feces" - is just a good-faith "attempt to communicate in a civil manner"..
GOTCHA!
Well, as for me... My "aim" is not "to shut down discussion" (as James' aim is clearly to censor the forum here). Indeed, I have topically provided a triplet of irrefutable truisms that I will happily discuss with anyone:
1. The "Jobs Bill" Obama is promoting is, as Ryan correctly notes, nothing more than Stimulus Lite - a redux of the same commie/liberal, Big Labor, NEA, "green" bribery that didn't work the first time Obama tried it.
2. James wants Ryan to avoid calling a bill that James acknowledges is "meant to stimulate the economy" a "stimulus" to carry water for Obama - a "non-stimulus" that is "meant to stimulate".... Too, too funny - even for here!
3. A Harvard study that analyzed nearly 40 years of data from around the world has concluded that the BEST way to stimulate the economy is by cutting taxes and reducing spending - and conversely the WORST way to stimulate an economy is by raising taxes and increasing government spending.
#21 Posted by padikiller, CJR on Fri 16 Sep 2011 at 09:27 PM
Thimbles' argument is schizophrenic - he spends a great deal of time and energy trying to convince us that the middle class bears the tax burden, but now he wants these overburdened taxpayers to part with more of their money to "stimulate" the economy?
All because he (for some reason he has not clarified) believes that the government can spend money through a political process that will create jobs more efficiently than the private sector can with the same amount of money.
The answer to the problem is clear - lower taxes, foster capitalism and return the incentive to free people to risk money to make money, and the economy will fix itself. Who in his or her right mind would hire anyone knowing that the "Jobs Bill" creates a legal cause of action against employers? Or wondering what Obamacare (that was promised to save $2500 in premiums) will cost?
Employers (and most Americans) want to see the commie/liberal nonsense derailed and put down. When this happens, so will recovery happen.
#22 Posted by padikiller, CJR on Fri 16 Sep 2011 at 10:08 PM
"But hey! Why let the mere facts (and nearly 40 years of hard data) get in the way of another commie/liberal hornswoggle, right?"
Austerians. Can't find them when tax cuts are being passed, can't shut them up when necessary social spending is being proposed. Boy do they show up whenever it's convenient.
The problem with Alesina and others is that the cases they pick are under very special circumstances.
They make the claim that a man will turn into a werewolf every night just because they studied a case once under a full moon.
Government cutting works when you have a private sector to pick up the slack. How do you get that in a globalized world in which wages are stagnating or falling?
1) Credit. Consumers can buy on credit and propel the economy forward. This will work while consumers maintain a manageable amount of credit to income or have savings and assets to make up the shortfall. National debt contraction comes at the cost of private debt increase. Is that a viable strategy now?
2) Trade. Other countries can become the consumers of the host country's products spurring the economy forward as the government contracts. While the host country gets its finances together, other countries with surplus finances sacrifice some of their growth and trade balance. Are their countries with surplus finances that are willing to sacrifice their trade balances? Is that a viable strategy now?
3) Lowered interest rates. This is a spinoff of the credit option above, but it's different in that when interest rates are high, to head off inflation and to repress labor costs, the private market is also repressed. When interest rates are lowered, suddenly the private market can find the funds it lacked before to make profitable projects that would not have been profitable before. The success on these projects relies on the consumer demand to sustain them, otherwise the projects are a waste of money. Can the fed lower interest rates below today's zero? Is that a viable strategy now?
As Rortybomb writes:
http://rortybomb.wordpress.com/2010/10/05/imf-economist-and-roosevelt-institute-on-alesina-and-ardagna/
"What we found when we dug into the OECD data was that you can cut your way out of a recession as long as you can lower interest rates. Or export your way out of the recession. Or if you are comfortable blowing up your debt-to-GDP ratio. Or if you let unemployment skyrocket further. Or if you are a really small country. The big two are interest rates and exports, and neither are available at the zero bound or in a global recession. And without being able to put this in motion an austerity measure would be very, very ugly. There’s a reason economists and governments know to cut during the upswing and not during a weakened state."
As buisnessweek writes:
http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/10_28/b4186012969951.htm
"The bottom line Alesina has provided the theoretical ammunition fiscal conservatives want. The Keynesians say that his research does not apply."
And the keynesians are right. Been right since the 1930's. (Oh, did Alesina skip that period? Funny that.)
#23 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Sat 17 Sep 2011 at 01:34 PM
Another shot at Alesina for those who care to read:
http://www.balloon-juice.com/2011/09/16/you-can-always-tell-a-harvard-man-and-woman
"That’s the nub: the real issue is that credentialed economists produced work that does not conform to reality—but does conform to what our friends in the Comfort the Comfortable lobby would wish to be true…and hence, it will never die. Just to repeat: it is not true that cutting demand in an economy with a demand gap in the gazillions will magically conjure up folks willing to spend."
#24 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Sat 17 Sep 2011 at 03:28 PM
So... Show me a study using hard data that renders a regression line that shows that raising taxes and increasing government spending stimulates the economy more than cutting taxes and cutting government spending and we'll talk...
Crickets chirping...
It's easy to say that the Harvard study is wrong. One can argue that the Earth is flat or that lightning comes from the hand of God.
But the data is what it is, and there is no evidence of any bias in the study.
What the commie/liberals want to do with the data is what they have done with the silly "global warming" schtick - namely cherry-pick data and sampling techniques to make the statistical case to support their screwy commie agenda.
As for the "keynesians" being right.... Where is the data to support this conclusion?
More crickets chirping.
Japan tried raising taxes during a recession. How'd that work out for them? HINT: Can you say "lost decade"?
It's not that complicated. If your problem is staggering debt.... Don't get any more of it.
If your problem is a lack of private sector jobs... Don't make it harder or more expensive for private sector employers to hire people.
If your problem is a TRILLION DOLLAR deficit.... Cut spending like crazy.
If your problem is that the Europeans were stupid enough to mingle stalwart economies like the German one with commie economies like the Greek one and are now paying the inevitable price for this liberal stupidity... Don't buy euros with dollars...
Common sense dictates fiscal policy, but the problem is that any solution to the problems brought on by 50 years of commie/liberal "Great Society" spending will hurt, and the Dems who are running the show now (as did the liberal GOP who immediately preceded them) lack the stones to do what it takes - namely telling old people that the COLA isn't coming this year, or telling the bureaucrats in DC to pack up their stuff and hit the streets.
You commies ought to enjoy your last puffs on the commie crack pipe.
Show's over. The Gravy Train has derailed and you couldn't summon the means to get it going again if the electorate gave you a chance to do it. Nobody's buying our debt except the Fed. Talk about a Ponzi scheme!
#25 Posted by padikiller, CJR on Sat 17 Sep 2011 at 03:36 PM
On the one hand, we have a peer-reviewed paper published by world-class economists at Harvard and presented on Harvard's website - a study that incorporates nearly 40 years of global data.
And on the other hand we have critiques posted at "rortybomb.wordpress.com" and "balloon-juice.com"..
Hmm... Which of these sources is more credible?
It's a tough one, I know....
Think about it.
#26 Posted by padikiller, CJR on Sat 17 Sep 2011 at 03:46 PM
Funny how you and the "world class" economists don't answer the question "who is going to pick up the spending when the government pulls out in a depressed economy?" You guys claim "Oh yeah dudes, the bond traders are going to totally dig a country whose government cuts the social safety net in the middle of a financial crisis" but you don't actually describe how that works nor how that will make a difference to the depressed economy.
Investors and bond traders lend money to make money. Investments make money when there is a demand for the product of said investment. We're in a global recession/depression in which - because of you idiots - nobody has any money.
So, smart guy with access to the data and analysis of the "world class" economist who agrees with you - what makes you think bond traders are going to pump investment into an economy when there is no domestic nor international demand to make a profit off of?
HUH?!?!
I can tell you plenty of examples where governments with financial crises cut government spending, cut taxes on the rich, increased taxes and fees on the poor, liberalized trade, privatized services and assets and how that turned out. That was the case for every country that ran to the IMF and the World Bank and filled their ears with Washington Consensus BS.
From Bolivia to Argentina to Japan to Mexico to Russia - lost decades of growth. Rising inequality. Increased poverty. F'in revolutions in more than a few cases.
Oh but surely that was then and this is now. Ireland and Britain must be swallowing the austerity with a spoon full of sugar to help the medicine go down.
What was that? Huh? Didn't hear you. Something about mumble mumble forty years of cherry picked data ignoring economies in decline while their interest rates were near zero mumble mumble.
Blow away you plutocrat jackoff. Study some real world class economists like Richard Koo, Adam Posen, Bill Black, Joseph Stiglitz, Nouriel Roubini - see what they say about austerity, then come back to me.
#27 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Sun 18 Sep 2011 at 02:59 AM
Thimbles blithered: Study some real world class economists like Richard Koo, Adam Posen, Bill Black, Joseph Stiglitz, Nouriel Roubini - see what they say about austerity, then come back to me.
padikiller responds: You give me a link to any peer-reviewed study that these (or any other economists) undertook and I will indeed consider it. I mean a peer-reviewed study of historical government stimulus with a regression analysis of actual data over a significant period.
You pop one of these out of your wazoo (instead of mere commie blithering) and I will study it carefully.
Until then, I'll have to stick with Harvard over the stalwart academics at "balloon-juice.com".
No offense.
#28 Posted by padikiller, CJR on Sun 18 Sep 2011 at 09:09 AM
I'll be happy to post all the papers google can find as soon as you and your "economist" answer my questions:
"what makes you think bond traders [and investors] are going to pump investment into an economy when there is no domestic nor international demand to make a profit off of?"
Please explain how cuts to the social safety net and spending during a financial crisis and a global economic recession will cause happy days to be here again. Alesina hasn't. You haven't. You both fall very short.
And in the meantime, reporters please watch this:
http://articles.businessinsider.com/2011-04-11/markets/29962183_1_banking-system-banking-crisis-asset-swap
And take note of this:
http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/09/18/hysteresis-begins/
The Obama attempt at stimulus and economic recovery has been some really weak Keynesianism (a few hundred billion to fill trillion dollar holes) from 2008 to 2010 and some really strong monetarism (to the tune of trillions of dollars) which have only helped the banks. That is Ben Bernanke's background. The elites were convinced by Freidman that active monetary policy could have fixed the Great Depression without having to employ all those nasty keynesian programs.
Obama, Bernanke, Summers, Geithner were wrong. The QE's failed, the 0% loans to banks using their garbage as collateral failed, all the monetarists have done is blow up America's balance sheets while the corporations sit on their federal reserve cash or invest it abroad where it might make money.
Monetary policy isn't working. It's time to do some old fashioned fiscal policy and get the economy working again, as was done in the 1930's and 40's.
Unfortunately, to do that you are going to need less Obamas and more Elizabeth Warrens.
#29 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Sun 18 Sep 2011 at 12:54 PM
Like I said, Thimbles..
When you can come up a with a peer-reviewed statistical study of government stimulus, using real data... I'm all ears..
I'm not interested in listening to commie/liberal opinion, whether from you, Krugman or anyone else.
Show me a study that reaches a different conclusion than the Harvard study and I'll consider it.
Until then, we have a peer-reviewed study from Harvard on one side of the debate, and a whole bunch of opinion, criticism and gnashing of teeth on the other side (some of it posted on a site that is actually named "balloon-juice.com")
I trust the peer-reviewed Harvard study over the commie/liberal noise machine.
Call me crazy,
#30 Posted by padikiller, CJR on Sun 18 Sep 2011 at 01:50 PM
"Until then, we have a peer-reviewed study from Harvard on one side of the debate, and a whole bunch of opinion, criticism and gnashing of teeth on the other side (some of it posted on a site that is actually named "balloon-juice.com")"
No what we have is a cop out answer from a guy who doesn't give a damn about peer reviewed authority when it comes to subjects less susceptible to corruption and bribery like climatology. What Alesina claims doesn't hold for economies that are in decline in spite of historically low interest rates. If it hurts your boo boo feelings that the critique is coming from "balloon-juice" or "conscience-of-an-underpants-gnome", I'm so terribly sorry but the critique still stands. The work of Harvard, the same Harvard that put Larry Summers in charge of its endowment and bestowed honors upon Barack Obama, does not.
Are plutocrat cop outs all you got? HUH?!
#31 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Sun 18 Sep 2011 at 03:03 PM
So I take it you can't point to a peer-reviewed study based upon historical data that shows that raising taxes and increasing spending is better stimulus than cutting taxes and cutting spending?
Is that where we are, Thimbles?
Peer-review doesn't mean perfect... But it is a whole lot more credible than mere opinion, whether in economics or in climatology.
If you think borrowing and spending more money is the way to go to fix huge deficits and crushing unemployment- fine. You're entitled to your opinion. I think it's patently stupid notion - but my opinion matters to you about as much as yours matters to me.
However, a linear regression line, based upon actual data, stands on its own. It is what it is.
I've read Alesina's paper, the criticism of it, and Alesina's response, and I find most of the criticism to be unfounded and politically motivated (certainly the IMF has a huge political horse in the race), I also find Alesina's response to be reasonable and persuasive.
However, I'm not immune to reconsideration. If you can come up with a study to support your argument, I'll consider it, but your opinions (given your ideological stance and your obviously emotional bias) are not persuasive.
#32 Posted by padikiller, CJR on Sun 18 Sep 2011 at 03:37 PM
"But it is a whole lot more credible than mere opinion, whether in economics or in climatology."
Do tell. This is news considering the amount of peer reviewed climate research you've dismissed as commie blather.
"It is what it is."
Except when it isn't. Perhaps the research points to a viable fiscal strategy within a narrow set of circumstances, but the question is that strategy viable now. You are the ones who have to make a convincing case that cutting the social safety net and government spending is a viable strategy during an economic crisis like we see now. You haven't done that. All you've claimed is that "it's from Harvard, you're emotional, you're stupid, and I have a linear regression". I have stated you are wrong and shown why. If you can't face down your criticism with anything better than "well, I've read the research and therefore I don't have to explain how cutting the social safety net and government spending in a recession produces economic growth since I believe in Harvard" then you are the one who is unpersuasive.
You've found an argument you like and, despite the quality of the analysis and the inapplicability of it to the current situation, you are going to parrot it. It's no different from the climate skepticism you've parrotted in the past (ie... your "no significant statistically scientific global warming since 1998" oft repeated foolishness)
The latest thing you're squawking about is wrong, however. You're wrong, however. You must know that or you'd attempt to defend your claims, however. Sad sad little plutocrat.
#33 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Sun 18 Sep 2011 at 11:21 PM
James,
Stimulus is what the press and politicians called the first one. You shouldn't write about the second package without referring to the first one, and everybody knows it as the stimulus. That doesn't mean it has to be first reference or anything, but it needs to be somewhere in the story.
re comments: i haven't seen any stalking or threatening. Please flag anything like that for me if I miss it. And the best thing to do with trolls is to ignore them.
#34 Posted by Ryan Chittum, CJR on Mon 19 Sep 2011 at 12:32 AM
Well, as for me, there seems to be a funded comment drive here by the right wingers as we've seen in the past with media buster types who have a whole lot of time on their hands to
trollkill and have accidentally blown their covers here.And paddy was making defamatory accusations towards Eric what's-his-name a while ago:
http://www.cjr.org/the_audit/follow_a_99er_press_jobs_crisis.php?page=all
I don't know, i'm a free speech guy but it gets a little tedious dealing with the guy who spams know-nothing "you're all a bunch of commies" rants instead of adds for new boots.
Anyways
http://bookstore.piie.com/book-store/35.html
For those who are interested.
#35 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Mon 19 Sep 2011 at 02:01 AM
I didn't defame anyone, anywhere, PERIOD.
The person in question admitted to "working under the table" while collecting unemployment benefits and the commie/censors here didn't like it when I pointed out the illegality of such an act. Indeed such fraud is criminal - in both state and federal law.
In America, truth is an absolute defense to libel. Sorry, dudes, but the truth hurts sometimes, and it isn't going anywhere, even by censoring posts.
And WHAT is it with this commie/liberal "paid troll" fairy tale?
Anyone who doesn't toe the commie/liberal line is a "paid troll"?- such intolerant juvenile stupidity.
Speaking of intolerant juvenile stupidity, from Thimbles, we get a series of juvenile name-calling - idiot, moron, racist, plutocrat, jackoff, etc, etc, etc. What does this add to the debate here?
This from the guy who thinks that "steak and Ho Ho's" are racist "code words" and that columnists should be restricted in the content of their columns on the basis of the color of their skin.
And as for journalistic content - how many times have I busted the commie/liberal nonsense here by tolling the Reality Bell? How many "updates" have I forced, thereby providing CJR readers with truth?
Were it not for me, CJR readers would be laboring under the misapprehension Ryan created that a particular SEC lawyer (who was not, in fact, a SEC lawyer) was conspiring with "Wall Street" to "run out the clock" on criminal statutes of limitations (when in fact the statutes in question were civil, and not criminal statutes).
Were it not for me, CJR readers would have fallen for Trudy Lieberman's ridiculously inflated claim a woman faced the choice of paying more than a hundred dollars a month (in fact, and ANNUAL and not a monthly cost).
Were it not for me, Greg Marx would never have conceded that his claim that Rick Perry was "wrong" in comparing Social Security to a Ponzi scheme should have been more "nuanced".
Etc, etc. etc.
Given all of this.. Notice who wants censorship. Commies. It's always the way in the commie world. The FIRST thing you do is hush the opposition. Why? Because commie/liberal stupidity can't withstand scrutiny or debate, and nobody knows it better than the intolerant commies do.
#36 Posted by padikiller, CJR on Mon 19 Sep 2011 at 07:30 AM
@Ryan,
Please don't lecture me about what to do with trolls. This troll has threatened me with a defamation lawsuit. And I *do* ignore them. I am just speaking to how these nutcases degrade the quality of your website, and detract from the work that you all do. I'm personally fine with ignoring trollls, and I generally address my comments and questions to the author of the post. If my comment gets ignored because of the indifference of the author or the fact that the thread gets hijacked by the nutcases, well, I don't take that personally. But I do miss the willingness of other people to post comments about your work, especially the journos you criticize or praise, or who otherwise have professional insight into the issues you post about. If you and the editors are indifferent to the cesspool that your comment threads have become, then fine. But they are becoming unreadable with the same tired rhetoric over and over again, and it reflects poorly upon you and your fine colleagues.
My question was, would you put up with this kind of shit-throwing that you see above at a panel discussion? If not, then you shouldn't put up with it here.
Cheers,
James.
#37 Posted by James, CJR on Mon 19 Sep 2011 at 09:21 AM
As to the substance of your post, which seems moot at this point, just asserting that this is not editorializing is not an argument, in all due respect. As to when you say "That doesn't mean it has to be first reference or anything, but it needs to be somewhere in the story." I agree with that wholeheartedly, but that's not what you advocated in your post. In your post you chided the "clueless" Democrats for using fifty-dollar words and then said that journos should use the word stimulus because that's what they called the first one -- journos did, not the White House. Even though, as you noted, it's a fifty-dollar word that no one outside of politicians and economists understand.
I claimed it was editorializing and it is -- it would be tantamount to eye-rolling, which is what you are doing when talking about the "DOA" Jobs Act. You accuse journos of carrying politicians' water for not continuing to use a fifty-dollar word that journos pushed in the first place. "Look, people! Now they've got this thing called a Jobs Act, that proposes a number of tax breaks and programs meant to increase hiring and reduced unemployment! Haw haw. Guess what??!!! It's really a S T I M U L U S B I L L ! ! ! Haw haw! Don't be fooled!"
#38 Posted by James, CJR on Mon 19 Sep 2011 at 10:04 AM
"Notice who wants censorship. Commies. It's always the way in the commie world. The FIRST thing you do is hush the opposition. Why? Because commie/liberal stupidity can't withstand scrutiny or debate, and nobody knows it better than the intolerant commies do."
Speaking of which, guy who goes after the careers of peer reviewed scientists just because he doesn't like the climate of their research, are you going to answer my question on how cutting back on government produces growth in a depressed global economy?
Or is the widdle plutocrat going to cop out again?
#39 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Mon 19 Sep 2011 at 11:03 AM
I've never threatened to sue anyone here. What kind of crap are you guys smoking?
And exactly how are the comments becoming "unreadable"? Lots of people seem to be reading them just fine.
I think the truth is that James just doesn't like reading them and he has his feelings hurt because I poked a little fun at his Orwellian slip that Obama's "jobs bill" is a "non-stimulus" that he admits is "meant to stimulate".
Time to do a little growing up and deal with the issues instead of calling for censorship.
#40 Posted by padikiller, CJR on Mon 19 Sep 2011 at 12:22 PM
I don't care about the depressed global economy, except to the extent that it raises security or economic issues here.
Cutting spending and reducing taxes will stimulate the economy, based on the best research available.
#41 Posted by padikiller, CJR on Mon 19 Sep 2011 at 12:27 PM