The publication of thousands of e-mails hacked from the University of East Anglia’s Climate Research Unit led to furious arguments about the science and politics of climate change. When the e-mails first leaked, however, reporters and bloggers on both sides of the debate expressed reservations about the legality and ethicality of publishing information acquired illegally.
Large excerpts and quotes of the e-mail exchanges have since been published in a variety of media, including newspapers, television, and blogs. The Wall Street Journal posted a full downloadable file on its Web site. Most outlets, however, opted to refer readers to places like www.eastangliaemails.com for the complete listing – a decision that drew many rebukes. The New York Times in particular has drawn harsh criticism for its handling of the e-mails. Public Editor Clark Hoyt wrote a convincing defense of the paper, arguing that it handled the situation “appropriately.”
Still, confusion over the legal and ethical implications of publishing hacked e-mails lingers. Some of the newspapers that have refused to publish the documents have general policies dictating that journalists not break any laws in the newsgathering process. Where these policies exist, however, they are a matter of journalistic ethics rather than an attempt to adhere to a well defined legal doctrine.
Given the confusion, CJR decided to consult relevant case law and spoke with two publishing law experts about the hacked e-mails. The following is a primer providing some direction for journalists. It should not be taken as legal advice. There is no absolute rule here and the unique details of each individual case are paramount.
Legal precedents
The Pentagon Papers case (New York Times Co. v. United States) tends to get thrown out there as the catch-all for press freedom, and it came up in myriad comments sections during “ClimateGate.” However, the Pentagon Papers represent a situation in which the Federal Government was trying to proactively prevent the press from publishing classified documents (what is known as prior restraint) that were leaked by an individual with legitimate access to the information, but no permission to distribute it. The Supreme Court favored a broad interpretation of First Amendment press freedoms, but left open the option for the government to prevent publication if it could prove a relatively high level of irreparable harm to national security.
Because the Pentagon Papers case was decided on a specific issue of prior restraint by the federal government preventing the initial publication of documents, it is not really analogous to questions about the legality of re-publishing the hacked e-mails from the University of East Anglia: they were not government documents implicating state secrets with national security implications, and there is no issue of attempted prior restraint.
The more appropriate legal precedent can be teased out of a series of Supreme Court and federal circuit court cases that form a spectrum of legal liability for journalistic use of illegally obtained materials. Where an individual situation falls on that spectrum is largely determined by the extent of involvement in the illegal activity of the person or media outlet claiming First Amendment protection.
Bartnicki v. Vopper is the most protective of journalists and sets out the primary “test,” holding that a broadcaster could not be held civilly liable for publishing documents or tapes illegally procured by a third party. The court set out three criteria for legitimate first amendment protection: (1) the media outlet played no role in the illegal interception; (2) media received the information lawfully; (3) the issue was a matter of public concern.
Here is a quick run-down of the result reached in applying the first two criteria in three relevant cases:
1) Bartnicki v. Vopper: A tape recording was made completely independently of the media outlet and given to another person who was involved in the underlying issue, but had no knowledge of circumstances under which the tape was made. The recipient then gave the recordings to a media outlet and they were made public. No media liability was found in this case.
What a freaking hoot! Journalists having misgivings about posting private emails! Tell that to the NY Times when they wrote at great length on the contents of Sarah Palin’s emails.
#1 Posted by Mike H, CJR on Wed 16 Dec 2009 at 01:46 PM
Read the article.
It's clarifying the legality of publishing illegally obtained information and coming out on the side of publishing.
There is the question of civil liability when you are first publisher of an individual's communications which invasion of an individual's privacy. This is different from Government official's communications since those are supposed to be part of the public record.
And, let it not be forgotten, the crime committed in getting the Palin emails was investigated and the perp is being punished.
http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2009/05/palin-hack/
#2 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Wed 16 Dec 2009 at 02:09 PM
Thanks for the comments. Thimbles, you are very right...there are a lot of other legal issues that can arise from publishing private emails. Privacy torts, trade secrets, etc., depending on the situation. As another example, here is an interesting article about the stolen Twitter emails that goes through some of the legal points at play when they were posted on TechCrunch:
http://www.pbs.org/mediashift/2009/08/was-twitter-document-theft-and-publication-by-techcrunch-legal237.html
#3 Posted by Diana Dellamere, CJR on Wed 16 Dec 2009 at 05:44 PM
Good note on the legal aspects, but missing the point.
Journalists did not have to print the 3,000 hacked e-mails (probably take up the whole Sunday NY Times) and expose themselves to legal scrutiny & lawsuits. All they had to do was report WHAT Fox News and some Canadian newspapers were reporting -- and then tag onto the Fox News story.
The real point was MSM reporting almost NOTHING for ten days.
Great website, thanks!
#4 Posted by John Rutter, CJR on Wed 16 Dec 2009 at 06:55 PM
John Rutter has made the crucial point. Stop trying to make excuses for not reporting a story. Everyone I knew just hopped over to the British newspapers. The American press was out of the game. So sad.
#5 Posted by Louise, CJR on Wed 16 Dec 2009 at 07:26 PM
It is certainly news that rightwing political operatives illegally hacked and stole someone's personal emails, and that the operatives appeared to be working in concert with entities from Turkey and Russia. That's the story that should be pursued. News organizations have no problem covering an email theft story as such, and calling it "email theft," unless it is done by rightwing operatives, as the pbs link demonstrates. When rightwing thieves do it, journos allow themselves to be spun into ignoring or forgetting the actual crime and the motivation.
The emails themselves were uninteresting and of no great import, except as the operatives use them as political fodder to further a rightwing agenda. The rightwing has (once again) flummoxed and spun gullible journalists into believing the crime had something important to do with "climate change." They don't.
#6 Posted by James, CJR on Thu 17 Dec 2009 at 08:08 AM
The ostentatious hand-wringing in this case stands in marked contrast to the numerous instances (Palin emails, Bush confidential documents) when the MSM fell all over themselves to publish confidential and / or illegally obtained documents.
The difference in this case is politics, pure and simple. In Climategate the MSM did its level best to protect the AGW movement from harm. They failed, only because of the internet. And as pointed out the real story is the 10 day delay in reporting – an eternity by current standards.
#7 Posted by JLD, CJR on Thu 17 Dec 2009 at 10:26 AM
Thimbles, the 'perp' in the Palin hackwork may be subject to punishment, but the Times is not. The piece was about law as it affects journalists.
Quite a lot of writers on the Left are practiced at the "It's OK when my side does it, but illegal if the other side does it." I doubt if they are taken very seriously by anyone except other true believers. Thimbles' friend Dellamore's piece appears to be of the "let's change the subject to the manner of release of the data instead of its contents" variety that comes right about on cue. (CJR ran similar meditations on the ethics of the exposure of ACORN, too.) Funny, these meditations don't take place in sober MSM journals when hacked or stolen information is in the service of the political Left. This double-standard exists to a lesser degree on the Right, too, but the Right doesn't have the academic and journalistic firepower to frame its politically loaded cases in sober terms which elevate legal privilege for 'the Left' to a moral principle.
Dellamere notes that a BBC reporter sat on the story. But he wasn't subject to U.S. case law, so 'wariness' of the legal reaction couldn't have been the reason, could it? And in the Pentagon Papers case, the Times and other papers had begun printing the stolen documents before the government sought a halt to it. It was 'prior restraint' in the sense that the government wanted to prevent further publication. The papers weren't being sued or prosecuted for what they had already published, so the ethics of publishing stolen material are, contrary to the implication, relevant here. There's a sense in which every 'leak' is 'stolen information', isn't there?
BTW, does anyone know for sure that the information was hacked by an outsider rather than leaked by a whistle-blower?
#8 Posted by Mark Richard, CJR on Thu 17 Dec 2009 at 03:22 PM
Mark,
Thanks for your comments. We have contacted the BBC regarding the reasons for them sitting on the story and will update on the site if/when we hear back. We didn't want to speculate on UK law here (I have a JD in the US, but know little, if anything, about UK law), but it is entirely possible that concerns about legality played a role there too. Again, we will update if we can get more information.
As for the whistleblower idea- the University of East Anglia has confirmed that it was a hack:
http://enviroknow.com/2009/11/21/east-anglia-university-cru-climate-hacking/
-Diana
#9 Posted by Diana Dellamere, CJR on Thu 17 Dec 2009 at 03:36 PM
Just to clarify-this is not meant to be all inclusive coverage of this issue. We are aware that there are a lot of other angles and issues here.
CJR's science editor, Curtis Brainard, wrote more about the coverage here: http://www.cjr.org/the_observatory/hacked_emails_and_journalistic.php
This piece was meant more as an informational/explainer on the legal aspect to compliment other coverage.
However, we would like to know from more people what you think the biggest issues are with the coverage (or lack thereof) of these emails. Thoughts?
-Diana
#10 Posted by Diana Dellamere, CJR on Thu 17 Dec 2009 at 03:40 PM
Diana Dellamere, thanks for your temperate post in response to what was obviously a critical one on my own part.
So far as this particular tale is concerned, I'd be interested in knowing answers to the same questions that are routinely raised when the shoe is on the other political foot. What is the source of funding of the East Anglia climate scientists? My experience suggests that academics write grant applications in which the proposed outcome is usually predicted by the application - far from the idealistic notion that scientists do research without an agenda. They know what their funding sources want to hear, and this is true of scientists seeking the backing of liberal governmental elites as surely as scientists funded by energy companies. Do the climate scientists have any selfish interest in 'sexing up' their models to fan a sense of urgency, make their own research more important, and therefore obtain greater access to more funding?
You've explored the legal issues with regard to publishing the e-mails. How about legal issues concerning the public's right to know - given that I have a strong feeling that the scientists' work was publicly funded? Did the scientists themselves destroy data, and was this legal? Some of the scientists at East Anglia apparently had doubts about the veracity of the conclusion being promoted. Has anyone spoken to any of them? Or the scientists still dissenting from the global warming orthodoxy after a generation of group-think backed by Big Science and its funding sources?
Beyond that, the public's relative apathy has something to do with the completely uncritical manner in which the press has retailed one apocalyptic scare after another, frequently pushed by environmental groups, for as long as I can remember. I was hearing about the earth's delicacy and the need for transnational 'governance' of mass production and consumption by an enlightened administrative class long before global warming became the poster-child among eco-causes. Different words, same old music.
#11 Posted by Mark Richard, CJR on Thu 17 Dec 2009 at 05:22 PM
In 1974, we learned in our classes that we would run out of gasoline by the year 2000 and that an ice age was looming, Coal and nuclear power were the ways we would power our electric cars.
Today's kids are catching the latest liberal fairy tale,
#12 Posted by padikiller, CJR on Thu 17 Dec 2009 at 08:57 PM
I'm still looking for a single stitch of evidence that shows that the CRU emails were "hacked"...
It appears much more likely that an authorized user on the CRU network placed these emails on a public server in Russia.
Why then, does the MSM insist that these emails were "hacked">
#13 Posted by padikiller, CJR on Fri 18 Dec 2009 at 12:07 AM
I know that you looneybin rightwingers don't read very well, but the University of East Anglia and the Climite Research Unit themselves said the emails were obtained by illegal hacking by an unauthorized person. They are considered stolen emails and the police are investigating the crime. I guess the so-called MSM "insists" the servers were hacked because they WERE hacked. Do-ohhhh!
Try reading something other than World Nut Daily for a change.
#14 Posted by Tom, CJR on Fri 18 Dec 2009 at 12:44 AM
Quick message, as I am busy, a repost from the Curtis Brainard thread:
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PS. People continuing to claim a theft was not a theft can check out a parallel case in the US when a employee of Deibold took embarrassing documents from his employer and was charged with several felonies:
http://www.bradblog.com/?p=3826
English law is no doubt similar and there is a police investigation being done into the matter. Inside or not, hack or not hack, a crime is a crime.
And stealing people's email for lulz is a crime when the victim is the CRU or when the victim is Sarah Palin.
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/webscout/2008/10/david-kernell-2.html
You can stop pretending it isn't now.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Whistleblowers, if they don't wish to face civil and criminal penalties, should release documents to the relevant whistleblower agencies where it can be handled by proper authorities.
To not do so exposes one to civil and criminal penalty. And, for the record, putting Palin's private emails out was a dickish thing to do and I support the charges pressed against the little punk responsible.
Now can we move on? The hack not hack debate is a distraction from issues of substance.
#15 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Fri 18 Dec 2009 at 01:27 AM
I hate to rain on your parade but the Internet is a global phenonenom. If these emails were hacked, the hacking would have to be illegal in the jurisdiction in which they were hacked. There are more countries in the world than the USA and UK - two countries with an overrated sense of their own importance - especially since the GFC.
If criminal activity in one jurisdiction is exposed by non-criminal activity in another jurisdiction, then justice has been served.
#16 Posted by Phlip Dowling, CJR on Fri 18 Dec 2009 at 02:58 AM
Sorry to rain on your parade, but jurisdiction determines the scope of apprehension, not the scope of crime. If one, say a hacker, commits a crime on one's property, say a Climate Research Unit's, then the violation of law can be charged, investigated, and prosecuted in the country of the crime site.
The authorities however, cannot apprehend the suspect unless there is a treaty of extradition in place and the perpetrator has not been granted asylum from the host country.
The whole purpose of this excercise is to pretend that there are no ethical questions about using these emails by pretending there was no crime by which these emails were produced. If you're a partisan, you want the climate researchers investigated because of the emails, not the people who made those emails available.
I say let both be investigated, but there are some who want to interject with denials of the crime, which should not be surprising since they come from a denial movement which denies the truths their own scientists claim undeniable.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/24/science/earth/24deny.html
I wonder what it will take to get stuff like this assigned the name 'gate'. It'd be sure funny if someone hacked into the computers of the denialist/industries who sponsor them.
These guys don't bother reserving names like "Hitler Youth" to their private emails.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ne-X_vFWMlw
I wonder what they say when the cameras aren't on.
#17 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Fri 18 Dec 2009 at 03:25 AM
Mark,
I think you have a good point about destroying data. It does seem like a questionable practice and some journalists have rightly raised that point:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/environment/article6936328.ece
The University's response has been that not preserving this particular data was part of a regularly established practice, based on it's reliability.
A number of sites have been pointing to this quote:
"In a statement on its website, the CRU said: 'We do not hold the original raw data but only the value-added (quality controlled and homogenised) data.'"
Though, I must say, I cannot immediately find that quote on the CRU site. I will keep looking. Has anyone else found it?
In early December, the CRU announced that the current director would stand aside for the time being and an independent review of CRU practices would be taken:
http://www.uea.ac.uk/mac/comm/media/press/2009/dec/CRUreview
As for the public's right to know, a number of Freedom of Information Act requests have been sent to the CRU (not by CJR) and they seem to be in the process of responding:
http://www.uea.ac.uk/mac/comm/media/press/2009/nov/CRUupdate
It was in response to these FOIA requests that the CRU admitted the data loss. Thus, at least in some small part, the legal process to protect the public's right to know worked.
As for scientists acting in their own interests and without transparency, I have to agree with you that this is a concern. Here is an interesting comment on that issue in the FT:
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/8aefbf52-d9e1-11de-b2d5-00144feabdc0.html?nclick_check=1
I suppose the fundamental problem is that everyone acts in their own interest (just look at how this information is being selectively used in the press to further both sides of a political debate). Safeguards can, and should, be put in place to prevent that from leading to skewed research or conclusions. Peer review is one option, FOIA requests for release of raw data is another. But, perhaps, this incident will raise the larger questions of scientific standards and transparency and lead to some stricter standards or better oversight. It will be interesting to keep track of the results from the independent review at CRU to see if there are any conclusions critical of this particular unit's practices or whether it seems to be part of a broader problem of methodology.
In regard to talking to the individual scientists themselves about this, my sense is that they would not be authorized to discuss it, given the ongoing criminal investigation and the independent review. However, I just sent an email to the CRU's media relations contact to see if I could verify that. I will keep you posted.
I will also take a quick look into the funding issues you raise and post whatever I can find here.
BTW-I appreciate constructive criticism and acknowledge that there are a lot of open issues that warrant more investigation. That's what this is all about.
Diana
#18 Posted by Diana Dellamere, CJR on Fri 18 Dec 2009 at 03:29 AM
In which country, were these emails stored. Many organisations use "in the cloud" storage, and redundancy means that servers on different continents may have stored the data.
There is more information about USA and UK citizens stored in Indian servers than most people could dream off.
#19 Posted by Philip Dowling, CJR on Fri 18 Dec 2009 at 03:49 AM
In which country, were these emails stored. Many organisations use "in the cloud" storage, and redundancy means that servers on different continents may have stored the data.
There is more information about USA and UK citizens stored in Indian servers than most people could dream off.
#20 Posted by Philip Dowling, CJR on Fri 18 Dec 2009 at 03:50 AM
Diana, while I appreciate any attention the media gives to this matter, your responses are incredibly frustrating. “Destroying data… does seem like a questionable practice” is most passive way possible to characterize this issue.. Contrast it with your use of the word “Hacked” in the title of your piece.
CRU has, so far, admitted to destroying data, refusing to comply with FOI requests and have stated in writing that they wanted to destroy emails in order to avoid their public review. Don’t any of these actions seem a little more than “questionable”? And don’t you have the slightest curiosity as to why CRU is so desperate to hide their data? This should be the beginning of the investigation, not the end.
Why does this matter? Because climate science cannot be verified by direct testing. It is based, in its entirety, on historic observation and mathematical theorems. CRU’s excuse that destroying data is normal practice is more than lame, it’s an insult to any thinking person’s intelligence. You can bet that, if the historic data buttressed their case, CRU would have released it long ago.
You found Clark Hoyt’s defense “convincing”? You might want to read the comments, which are 90-10 against it. His specious argument is that the CRU emails were not a “Three alarm fire.” A leak that calls into question the science behind hundreds of billions in planned payments?
And since when does the Times wait for “three alarms:” before posting a story? If you use Hoyt’s logic, Sarah Palin’s wardrobe (page one) is a much bigger story than the CRU emails. Do you honestly agree with this logic?
#21 Posted by JLD, CJR on Fri 18 Dec 2009 at 08:08 AM
"Safeguards can, and should, be put in place to prevent that from leading to skewed research or conclusions. Peer review is one option, FOIA requests for release of raw data is another."
As a matter of interest, was this written completely without irony? You are aware that the CRU leak exposes the gaming of the peer review system and deletion of FOI requested data?
Given that, how can you still point to these as "safeguards"?
#22 Posted by JLD, CJR on Fri 18 Dec 2009 at 09:49 AM
Before we go on about FOI and such, remember the type of people the climatologists were dealing with:
---------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/34392959/ns/us_news-environment/
The e-mails show that several mainstream scientists repeatedly suggested keeping their research materials away from opponents who sought it under American and British public records law. It raises a science ethics question because free access to data is important so others can repeat experiments as part of the scientific method. The University of East Anglia is investigating the blocking of information requests.
"I believe none of us should submit to these 'requests,'" declared the university's Keith Briffa in one e-mail. The center's chief, Phil Jones, e-mailed: "Data is covered by all the agreements we sign with people, so I will be hiding behind them."
When one skeptic kept filing Freedom of Information Act requests, Jones, who didn't return AP requests for comment, told another scientist, Michael Mann: "You can delete this attachment if you want. Keep this quiet also, but this is the person who is putting FOI requests for all e-mails Keith (Briffa) and Tim (Osborn) have written."
Mann, a researcher at Penn State University, told The Associated Press: "I didn't delete any e-mails as Phil asked me to. I don't believe anybody else did."
The e-mails also show how professional attacks turned very personal. When former London financial trader Douglas J. Keenan combed through the data used in a 1990 research paper Jones had co-authored, Keenan claimed to have found evidence of fakery by Jones' co-author. Keenan threatened to have the FBI arrest University at Albany scientist Wei-Chyung Wang for fraud. (A university investigation later cleared him of any wrongdoing.)
"I do now wish I'd never sent them the data after their FOIA request!" Jones wrote in June 2007.
In another case after initially balking on releasing data to a skeptic because it was already public, Lawrence Livermore National Lab scientist Ben Santer wrote that he then opted to release everything the skeptic wanted — and more. Santer said in a telephone interview that he and others are inundated by frivolous requests from skeptics that are designed to "tie-up government-funded scientists."
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These people filing the FOI's were not people interested in legitimate research, these were people harrassing scientists with frivilious claims about their work and filibustering research through FOI requests. More in a second
#23 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Fri 18 Dec 2009 at 10:45 AM
Thimbles wrote: "These people filing the FOI's were not people interested in legitimate research"
padikiller notes: LOL! You've got that right. There certainly wasn't any legitimate research going on the CRU.
But seriously... This kind of response is typical, knee-jerk liberalism. The people who made the FOI requests were the "wrong" type of people and so had no right to make the request. "Freedom" only belongs to people who liberals like.
Such obtuse reasoning pervades leftist thought.
#24 Posted by padikiller, CJR on Fri 18 Dec 2009 at 10:53 AM
JLD,
I appreciate your comments. However, I am not sure how productive it is to attack me for not taking an extreme stance. I understand your frustration with the lack of complete information in this situation and the potential mishandling of scientific data.
However, MY role in this is to encourage discussion and provide what information I can. The language I chose to use in my comments was intended to address a charged comment from another contributor in a productive way. It was also meant to be neutral enough to invite discussion.
I am not an expert in climate change research and I happen to think that the increasingly ridiculous practice of media commentators (and the anonymous contributors who comment on the media coverage such as here) taking absolute stances and claiming to have all the answers and the final word on an issue when they have neither is not helpful at all.
Having neither expertise in the climate research nor a complete set of information about how this data was handled (none of us do at this point), I don't see how I could add to the conversation by unilaterally condemning CRU or the peer review system.
I am a law school graduate, which is why it DID seem helpful for me to research some of the legal issues facing the press for the information of our readers.
That said, from your comments it seems that you DO have all the answers. So, perhaps you could suggest some specific safeguards or give a detailed, educated, scientifically, legally, and logically sound critique of the situation? I look forward to it. (Irony up for interpretation).
Also, please show me where CRU has admitted to refusing to comply with FOIA requests. From what I have seen, they have said that they are in the process and require the contribution of other agencies.
Finally, my article is not CJR's only commentary on this subject nor is it meant to be complete investigative coverage of the issue. That is not CJR's purpose.
Again, I genuinely appreciate your criticisms and I am happy to address those that are substantive. However, I will not be pushed into extremism. I will opine where I have sufficient information. Where I do not, I will ask those who do to contribute their perspective.
-Diana
#25 Posted by Diana Dellamere, CJR on Fri 18 Dec 2009 at 10:59 AM
You can really see the bunker mentality set in when the skeptics escalated from harassment to career destruction. The Jones IPR hiding quote was from 2005 and was in relation to a question about releasing source code. It was innocuous.
The Keenan affair was more traumatic and you can read that in the conversations posted here.
http://www.eastangliaemails.com/emails.php?eid=802&filename=1182255717.txt
http://www.eastangliaemails.com/emails.php?page=1&pp=25&kw=keenan
----------------------------------------------------
I am sure you know that this is not about the science. It is an attack to
undermine the science in some way. In that regard I don't think you can
ignore it all, as Mike suggests as one option, but the response should try
to somehow label these guys and lazy and incompetent and unable to do the
huge amount of work it takes to construct such a database. Indeed
technology and data handling capabilities have evolved and not everything
was saved. So my feeble suggestion is to indeed cast aspersions on their
motives and throw in some counter rhetoric.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Boy, the more things change...
The bolded section tells you what happened to the raw data pre-1980 that everyone is harping about. It wasn't destroyed, it was moved to a new system and some of the old files were left out. When I was involved in information technology I saw it happen. When you move from an old house, some of the stuff in the attic gets chucked, it's not a conspiracy. pt 3.
#26 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Fri 18 Dec 2009 at 11:19 AM
I hear some projection in the denialist position. You can't tell me that Exxon, BP, and other oil and coal companies can't afford to purchase their own data sets from the private sector, hire some academics, and write their own articles for their own captive journals just like the tobacco industry did for 70 years to obfuscate the facts about disease etiology resulting from use of their product. Populist paranoids, paid lobbyists and astroturf posers pretending they have a smoking gun and journalists tut-tutting because science doesn't work like they thought it did from their 6th form understanding of it is not a surprise nor a compelling piece of evidence that a fraud was committed.
#27 Posted by Dick Hertz, CJR on Fri 18 Dec 2009 at 11:27 AM
What is a conspiracy is the industry led denial of climate science
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=522784499045867811#
and one has to wonder if anyone involved in it was responsible for the suspiciously timed, hacked emails.
PS. Speaking of conspiracies about manipulated data and such, a web site has come to my attention which is scrutinizing the skeptics as they themselves scrutinize and is finding all sorts of data manipulated and plagiarism.
http://deepclimate.org/
Glass houses folks.
#28 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Fri 18 Dec 2009 at 11:28 AM
Diana, I apologize if my post was overly pointed. However I am hardly asking you to take an “extreme” stance, and I do not appreciate your using this characterization. So I’m an “extremist” because I ask questions? Even you acknowledged that CRU’s actions raise questions.
Here is but one example of a refused FOI request http://camirror.wordpress.com/2009/11/21/test/
My frustration is not with the incomplete information, but with the MSM’s handling of it. Why is no one in the MSM asking simple questions about this important matter?
I am not an expert in climatology either, and nowhere in my post did I imply that I “have all the answers.” I have, however, completed graduate classes in Environmental Economics. I am fully aware of the politics underlying much of the proposed solution under discussion in Copenhagen. There are powerful forces arrayed on both sides of this issue.
Labeling someone an extremist for simply raising questions is not constructive. It also appears rather out of place in a publication meant to promote journalism.
#29 Posted by JLD, CJR on Fri 18 Dec 2009 at 12:12 PM
Asking questions about CRU's burning need to hide data = "taking an extreme stance"
Such is the sad, sad state of "journalism" today.
#30 Posted by padikiller, CJR on Fri 18 Dec 2009 at 12:27 PM
JLD, being against the science that your own skeptics acknowledge and supporting the disinformation campaign put out without an ounce of skepticism towards the skeptics is extreme.
And when you try and bully people towards your extreme views, which you can only back up through accusations and not scientific evidence,
http://www.cjr.org/the_observatory/trains_planes_and_carbon_offse.php
it really rubs people the wrong way.
If you want to have a discussion, we can have a discussion. If you want to act accusative and cry when your saintly self has been labeled, I am totally going to make fun of you.
You extremist nut bat.
PS. Dellamere? Padkiller is a troll. If you ignore him, he'll do funny dances and wave his arms around.
#31 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Fri 18 Dec 2009 at 02:07 PM
I look forward to the funny troll dances.
#32 Posted by Diana Dellamere, CJR on Fri 18 Dec 2009 at 03:01 PM
padikiller does a little fact-based "trolling":
Not to point to fine a point on this "hear no evil, see no evil" approach to the climate "science" fiasco...
But which is it? A "hack"? Or a "leak"?
This article assumes, without basis, that the CRU emails and files were illegally copied. Given the circumstances, this assumption seems to be unfounded. The files were posted to a server in Russia, republished in the blogosphere, and the BBC sat on them for a month.. And yet CRU never reported any "crime".
The criminal investigation came only after the story went viral. Any self-respecting "journalist" should be suspicious of such circumstances. Given the timing of the release, the titles of the files, and the UNIX timestamps on them, it seems far more likely that a whistleblower within CRU (and with authorized access to the files) copied these files to a server - in which case the ethical concerns described in Ms. Dellamere's article are rendered moot.
Ms. Dellamere, why should your readers assume that the emails have been "hacked"?
#33 Posted by padikiller, CJR on Fri 18 Dec 2009 at 04:24 PM
Just an aside, but I'm amused at Tom's vitriol at people who don't take the word of the East Anglia researcher and the "Climite" Research Unit for it that the e-mails were hacked rather than leaked. These are the very people whose credibility has been seriously undermined by these revelations. I may not be as intelligent as Tom seems to think he is, but I know that these persons have a direct interest in shifting the conversation from their own shenanigans to those of someone else.
#34 Posted by Mark Richard, CJR on Fri 18 Dec 2009 at 04:51 PM
The real journalistic issues here have nothing to do with whether or not the e-mails were illegally obtained by whoever supplied them to the news outlets that published stories on their contents.
The real issue here is that for all the denialists' howling and raving, the science of global warming -- consisting of more than 30,000 studies, many of them redundant and confirming earlier results obtained independently, performed by thousands of researchers over a period of decades -- remains intact.
Not one denialist has been able to point to a single piece of global warming science and prove that it was wrong or inaccurate, let alone fraudulent. And even if one or two studies were found to be fraudulent, how does one explain the other 29,998?
To suggest that the "real issue" is that the MSM didn't run madly after Fox News's lead is to suggest that we all ought to follow propagandists over an intellectual cliff. No. Sorry. We listened to the propagandists and their brain-dead followers for eight years and look where it got us. It's time to let the people who actually know what they're doing run things and get the media spotlight.
#35 Posted by Lex Alexander, CJR on Fri 18 Dec 2009 at 05:31 PM
First of all the University of East Anglia and the Climatic Research Unit (CRU) are in the UK, not the US. Therefore, for one thing, they are not subject to any FOIA requests. FOIA is a US law applying to the United States federal government. Do-ohhh. It doesn't even apply to US universities, let alone international universities. :::Huge Eyeroll:::
The UK is not bound by the First Amendment either, being that they don't live under the US Constitution. Nor are US universities bound by the First Amendment, nor are climate research centers of any sort. The First Amendment says Congress shall make no law... abridging the freedom of speech. Do-ohhh.
Thirdly, "liberal" as the rightwing lunatics use the word, doesn't apply to politics outside the US. Liberal has a completely different meaning in international politics. Classical liberalism as it applies internationally is actually equivalent to moderate conservatism, as it used to be in the US before the batshit crazies took over the party. So the accusation of these rightwing lunatics that the University is "liberal" is just, frankly, ignorant. And stupid, as well.
Fourth, regardless of what some extremist deluded crazies in the US believe, the University has said that the emails were stolen as a result of unauthorized access, which is illegal under the laws of the UK. Who gives a crap whether some batshit Yahoos on a comment thread give any credibility to the University and the Research Center? The police in the UK "take the word" of the University over the word of some raving nutters on a comment thread, and that's actually what counts.
#36 Posted by Tom, CJR on Fri 18 Dec 2009 at 08:17 PM
Tom:
1. The FOI requests to the CRU were made under the U.K.'s FOI law... Not the U.S. law. Keep up, pal! If you're going to huff and puff, get the facts right.
2. Nobody is talking about the first amendment in the context of these emails..
3. Leftists have taken over the environmental movement and transformed it to an anti-capitalist cause. To argue otherwise is just silly. The most popular guy at Copenhagen (supposedly convened to deal with environmental issues) was Hugo Chavez. The irony of the climate change wackos cheering the tyrannical leader of the founding OPEC nation is not lost among intelligent readers.
4. Finally, the University of East Anglia has NOT stated that the emails were stolen. The press release (issued only after the story broke and LONG after the university learned of the leak) stated that it APPEARED that emails been stolen and that the university CONSIDERED the investigation of the release to be a criminal investigation. Weasel words deliberately designed to avoid a direct accusation
#37 Posted by padikiller, CJR on Fri 18 Dec 2009 at 10:21 PM
So Tom,
The FOI law in question is a UK law which relates to public research and the emails detail that denialists have used the law to harass and intimidate researchers. Some parts of the research could not be released since, though the research was public, some of the data and source code was proprietary and was shared with the University based on intellectual property agreements.
This only covers 5% of the data, the other 95% being in the public sphere already.
http://www.uea.ac.uk/mac/comm/media/press/2009/nov/CRUupdate
The denialists occupy themselves with the 5% because they are, for the most part, people who's brains consist of the matter most keep in their colons.
2. The first amendment is not an issue. The right to privacy is.
3. Yes, the overton window in the US is skewed towards the gun toting, maniacal, Jesus loves me this I know (Science!), right.
In other countries, your liberals would be right wing crazies.
European conservatives are embarrassed by the American zealots.
http://www.salon.com/opinion/conason/2009/09/25/global_warming_conservatives/index.html
But yeah, that doesn't matter. The politics that are in GW science were put there by the denialists who want a political reality to triumph over the scientific one. The same people who advocate a police state to protect the public from drug consumption, frame any policy to change fuel consumption/emissions production as an attack on liberty. They are stupid.
4. The denialists have no science, that's not their strategy. All they have is doubt and they are trying to emphasize doubt and fear of change to stymie industrial evolution. They are dogmatic zealots. They accuse others of having a GW faith, but I don't see them going into the ice cores of the worlds glaciers and into the buried coral beds of the ocean and into the satellites of space etc, making predictions based on a hypothesis, and confirming those predictions with the data sampled. They don't do science, they attack science, and when their skeptics do science they end up having to say, "Well yes, the earth is warming and yes, it's partly because of CO2 and other GHG and yes, we are causing it, but is a warm world such a bad place?"
Lomborg, Lindzen, Christie, and others all say this.
Their only question is "is a warm world such a bad place?" and the answer to that is "likely, very goddamn likely you hacks."
So the denialists don't want to talk about science at all. They want to talk about email. They want to talk about imaginary whistle blowers and crimes that aren't crimes because Steve McIntyre says so.
They want to flll the air with something potentially more toxic than GHG - lies. And that is why it is important for a competent press not to jump into the hysteria until they get the story right. Ten days is not a long time for layman journalists to go over thousands of emails dealing with the specialized field of climate so they can get the story right.
Does it matter to the zealots that they get the story right?
When has it ever?
#38 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Fri 18 Dec 2009 at 11:59 PM
Thimbles regurgitates Phil Jones' mantra: "Some parts of the research could not be released since, though the research was public, some of the data and source code was proprietary and was shared with the University based on intellectual property agreements."
padikiller responds: WHO says that "some parts" of the research "could not be released"? You are just toeing the CRU line, here, as usual, by presenting your opinion as fact..
The true fact of the matter is that the FOI minister in the UK has yet to rule on the CRU's denial of FOI requests.
But why let a little thing like a mere fact get in the way of an AGW defense, right?
#39 Posted by padikiller, CJR on Sat 19 Dec 2009 at 08:32 AM
As far as the current state of science goes...
Michael Mann just released a study that shows that we can't tell whether the average global temperature will rise or fall in response to increased CO2 concentrations because the models are in "disagreement". (His word)
The science just isn't there to support any policy direction. PERIOD.
#40 Posted by padikiller, CJR on Sat 19 Dec 2009 at 08:58 AM
Did you cite/link the study? No? Then what you say about it is unimportant.
PS. I like that you're mixing it up a little. "Say WHO" was way too overused. "WHO says" is much more fresh and hip.
#41 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Sat 19 Dec 2009 at 11:01 AM
Thimbles babbles: Wearing a lab coat and industrial-sized glasses
padikiller responds: Dude.. Are you on crack?
YOU linked to his paper (recently published in "Science").
#42 Posted by padikiller, CJR on Sat 19 Dec 2009 at 11:59 AM
"There is still a fair amount of divergence among the various models - in terms of how El Nino changes in response to increasing greenhouse gas concentrations. -- Dr. Michael Mann, Interview with BBC
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/8381317.stm
First of all... WHY are there "models"? As in plural? Huh?
If the current state of science is exact enough to demand trillions of dollars in investment and massive policy changes around the globe, then why isn't there just one model?
Secondly, any notion of precision is of course destroyed by the fact that the multiple models come to contradictory conclusions.
#43 Posted by padikiller, CJR on Sat 19 Dec 2009 at 12:33 PM
Tom, thanks for setting me straight on the European vs. American usage of liberal - as if it matters much in this context. Americans on the Left often call themselves "liberals", so conservatives can't exactly be blamed for calling them by their preferred names. Nor can the fact that it has become a term at which voters and consumers have come to look askance, being too often identified with wealthy people professing to be friends of the poor - by squeezing those who aspire to wealth. (The old right-wing joke: a developer is someone who wants to build a cabin in the woods; an environmentalist is someone who already has a cabin in the woods and doesn't want company.) I believe FDR began the adoption of use of the word "liberal" to describe his ideology. Perhaps it is most accurate to say that "liberal' describes a class of people - urban, bourgeois, likely to be engaged in services rather than the production of goods - which does, in fact, bring the American and European usages together.
#44 Posted by Mark Richard, CJR on Sat 19 Dec 2009 at 12:42 PM
Good, the you remember what I said about it and I won't have to berate you again for attacking a straw man.
PS. A fun video with Pat Micheals talking about 1998 and "the earth has been cooling"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QwnrpwctIh4
*Spoiler: He says it isn't, at a meeting of climate deniers sponsored by the Heartland Institute*
#45 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Sat 19 Dec 2009 at 12:45 PM
Gee, if only someone could have blocked those emails and the data we could have kept the public in the dark and could have continued the scam. Now I fear the jig is up!
#46 Posted by EricTheRed, CJR on Sat 19 Dec 2009 at 03:53 PM
If our White house is under control of a foreign power, don't you think anythin should be done to expose him and his cronies? Thank God Republians still believe in the country. We might be able to save it.
#47 Posted by james, CJR on Sun 20 Dec 2009 at 04:51 PM
How can printing the truth be wrong ?
#48 Posted by Paul, CJR on Thu 24 Dec 2009 at 12:45 AM
Paul asked: "How can printing the truth be wrong ?"
padikiller answers" When doing so makes liberals look bad.
The simple rules of "professional journalism":
1. Truth and coverage are not synonymous. "Journalists" need to "guide the debate" by "contextulaizing", "flitering" and "distilling" stories.
2. Anonymous sources are OK when they make liberals look good or conservatives look bad. Otherwise they are anethma.
3. Undercover sting investigations are OK when they make non-union grocery store look bad, but not when they make a liberal activist group look bad.
4.The blogosphere is full of knuckle-dragging idiots who can't do "real journalism".
5. If you encounter documents that make liberals look bad, and these documents may have been either illegally hacked or legally released by a whistleblower, then there is a presumption that they have been illegally hacked. If instead you encounter obvioulsly faked military personnel records that make a conservative incumbent President look bad just before a close election, then there is a presumption that the records are genuine and also a presumption that they have been legally released.
See how easy it is?
#49 Posted by padikiller, CJR on Thu 24 Dec 2009 at 12:25 PM
For Padkiller:
Liberals, non-liberals, it doesn't matter...If the truth isn't told for whatever agenda then it ceases to be journalism and becomes propaganda.
#50 Posted by Paul, CJR on Thu 24 Dec 2009 at 11:16 PM
And when it comes to the truth, it's good to keep in mind who's been actively fighting science and who has been pushing it forward.
Hint: It ain't the conservative, global warming denying, creationism believing, stem cell banning, luddites.
The only science they support is the kind that drops bombs on people.
PS. Printing the truth can be wrong if the "truth" doesn't belong to you. IE: taking naked pictures of a famous actress from a stalkers perch in view of her bedroom reveals the truth, but that was a private truth that the photographer had no right to reveal.
IE: stealing the source code for a famous operating system and publishing it on the web for anyone to read, compile, and exploit.
Both of these publications of truth violate the rights of others, one violates the right of privacy and the other violates the right of property (in that the source code is intellectual property).
The revelation of truth must also take the rights of the revealed into account. What's true of Sarah Palin is true of Deibold is true of the University of East Anglia. Bottom line.
#51 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Thu 24 Dec 2009 at 11:54 PM
Any ideologies will oppose scientific inquiry that threatens his or her ideology.
For example, religious zealots (from the left and right) oppose animal testing, genetic research, etc.
AGW is an ideology and its proponents have clearly acted in a manner inconsistent with scientific principles.
Of course, the CRU emails and files on question can (and should) be distinguished from Palin's stolen personal emails or Diebold's proprietary code. The CRU is a public institution subject to FOI laws. Apples and oranges.
#52 Posted by padikiller, CJR on Fri 25 Dec 2009 at 01:55 AM
Sarah Palin was a government official and Deibold was fulfilling a government contract and nobody's email was, nor should be, part of an FOI request.
FOI is a red herring argument.
#53 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Fri 25 Dec 2009 at 05:03 AM
Time to ring the Reality Bell, once again, to deal with Thimbles' latest obfuscation attempt:
1. Any emails Sarah Palin sent from her personal Yahoo acccount to a non-government email account are NOT public documents subject to production under FOI laws. Her emails from her government email account or to a government official would of course be subject to production under the Alaska Public Records Act.
2. Diebold is private company and its records are not subject to FOI laws. To the extent is has government contracts, it's proprietary software is exempt from production.
3. The Climate Research Unit is a division of the public University of East Anglia and its records (including emails) are subject to UK laws. The emails and files in question are not exempt from production under the UK law. Indeed, the UK has a special law providing for the disclosure of environmental information that is more extensive than its general FOI act:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmental_Information_Regulations_2004
Lest there be any doubt over the right of the public to access the emails in question, here is the policy from the Unviversity of East Anglia's website:
"Under the terms of the Freedom of Information Act, individuals have the right to request any information that is held by the University. This includes all digital and print records and information regardless of how old the information is and where it is stored. The University has 20 working days in which to deal with a request."
http://www.uea.ac.uk/is/foi/foi_rights
Nice try, Thimbles, but no cigar.
#54 Posted by padikiller, CJR on Fri 25 Dec 2009 at 09:04 AM
Jesus, you're going to make me dig into this, like it's not plain on it's face that releasing people's private communications is wrong.
Fine:
"Under the terms of the Freedom of Information Act, individuals have the right to request any information that is held by the University."
A) emails weren't requested. They were stolen.
b) Your FOI law has exceptions in section 12. You, and anyone looking into the FOI angle, should read them.
c) Regardless of whether FOI laws apply to East Anglia emplooyee's private emails or not, they don't apply to all the people who were corresponding with East Anglia. If they did not give permission for their private communications to fulfill an FOI request, then their data should be excluded.
1. Any emails Sarah Palin sent from her personal Yahoo acccount to a non-government email account are NOT public documents subject to production under FOI laws. Her emails from her government email account or to a government official would of course be subject to production under the Alaska Public Records Act.
If she was conducting government business on her yahoo email, and she was
http://government.zdnet.com/?p=4013 , then it should be covered.
Look, in all the cases mentioned, I disagree with the violations of privacy though they may have achieved some important ends: a bad politician was exposed for trying to circumvent her public records obligations and a bad contractor was exposed for trying to pass off bad machines as good ones.
But that doesn't excuse the violation and I support the punishment of the people involved. In some cases, you support the violation and you don't support the punishment. Weird.
#55 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Fri 25 Dec 2009 at 01:49 PM
You can not tease an illegality out of an act where the security of an entire nation, the world, would become moot. It is not a choice between the lesser of two evils that is being bumbled by a free press it is the adherence to the theory that a conspiracy is due legal protection if it purports to do well for all. It would behoove all journalists to seek the unknown without regard to the rationale behind the secreting agency but with full appreciation for the dangers a conspiracy offer up. Being in possession of knowledge enough to make a rational decision as to the implications of it is really the point required to justify public release.
#56 Posted by A pen, CJR on Sat 26 Dec 2009 at 10:47 AM
A pen, make english please. Your meaning is being lost in your labyrinthine paragraphs.
"You can not tease an illegality out of an act"
Illegality? I assume the act you mean is the stealing of emails.
"where the security of an entire nation, the world, would become moot."
Are you trying to say the act of stealing emails would make the security of a nation, the world, moot? What does "security becoming moot" mean? You may have good ideas, but you aren't communicating them.
Read this:
http://www.orwell.ru/library/essays/politics/english/e_polit
and read it again. Then rewrite your paragraph so that it means something and it's the something you intended.
#57 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Sat 26 Dec 2009 at 01:39 PM
There is no evidence that the CRU emails were stolen.
It is likely that they were transferred to a public serve by an authorized user.
The documents are public documents subject to FOi law
#58 Posted by padikiller, CJR on Sat 26 Dec 2009 at 11:47 PM
The emails weren't FOI requested and the emails exceeded the scope of FOI jurisdiction.
They were stolen. Give it up. (See, other people can repeat themselves over and over too.)
And regardless of the status of the emails, their release has demonstrated nothing about their authors except that they write about their opponents with far less candor in private than in public. There is no conspiracy, there are no attempts to rig the data, there are only people who are reacting to the harassment and bad science of their opponents.
In private. And not even that is respected by their opponents, who would scream bloody murder if their privacy was so violated.
For your viewing pleasure:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P70SlEqX7oY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eJFZ88EH6i4
#59 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Sun 27 Dec 2009 at 12:36 AM
There is no evidence that the CRU files and emails were stolen
If you have such evidence, It'd lik
e to see it.
All of the evidence so far-the names of the files, the failure ofthe university toreport to the police, the packaging of the files, and most importantly the retention of the original UNIX timestamps-indicates that these files were collected and transferred by an authorized system user within the CRU.
#60 Posted by padikiller, CJR on Sun 27 Dec 2009 at 01:22 AM
None of what you just typed is true. Timestamps, etc can all be copied from a backup to another system, which is the purpose of a backup - to restore the state of a failed machine, and it was on a backup that the hack occurred.
And even if it was an authorized system user, he was not authorized to release private data under the data protection act of 199.. aw hell. You don't care about this anyways.
Time waster,
#61 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Sun 27 Dec 2009 at 02:08 AM
Various people in every country take the mortgage loans in various banks, because that's comfortable and fast.
#62 Posted by RutledgeIsabel21, CJR on Sat 17 Sep 2011 at 02:27 AM