Politics today seemingly has more fact-checking than ever before. As a result, reporters are asking a new question: Does fact-checking work?
At the national level, USA Today’s Martha T. Moore described it as “an article of faith” among fact-checkers that “factually accurate information is something voters want and need, and they provide plenty of it.” Unfortunately, she writes, “[w]hat they can’t seem to do is get politicians to stop saying things that aren’t true.”
In her piece (which quoted me), Moore notes the challenges facing fact-checking organizations confronting politicians like former House Speaker Newt Gingrich who continue to repeat claims that have been rated false or misleading. “Large-scale, repeated misstatements” from both parties “are so persistent they raise the question whether accuracy is valued less than the ability to frame an idea in a pithy, memorable way,” Moore writes. She quotes Rick Tyler, an adviser to the pro-Gingrich super PAC Winning Our Future, who says, “I don’t think [fact-checkers] make a whit’s worth of difference… Millions more people will see the ad than will ever see the political fact check.”
A similar concern was expressed in an analysis piece by Henry J. Gomez titled “Even in an age of fact-check journalism, the political whopper lives” that was published Saturday in The Plain Dealer of Cleveland. As T.C. Brown, CJR’s Ohio Swing States Project correspondent, notes, the piece centers on Ohio Treasurer and GOP Senate candidate Josh Mandel, whom Gomez notes “has received three of PolitiFact Ohio’s seven most recent Pants on Fire rulings.” In total, six of his fourteen rated statements since 2010 “have been deemed Mostly False, False or Pants on Fire.”
“Why do they do it?” Gomez asks. “Those who study politics and communications say the consequences appear to be minimal, at least for the liars.” The article quotes me and other commentators explaining that politicians appear to pay a relatively minor price for false statements. And indeed, when Gomez interviewed Mandel, the candidate “vowed to repeat the assertion ‘again and again’ and said he sees no downside. His claims, he added, are ‘100 percent’ truth.”
So is it the case that fact-checking doesn’t work? It is true that corrective information may not change readers’ minds. My research with Georgia State’s Jason Reifler finds that corrections frequently fail to reduce misperceptions among the most vulnerable ideological group and can even make them worse (PDF). Other research has reached similarly discouraging conclusions—at this point, we know much more about what journalists should not do than how they can respond effectively to false statements (PDF).
But while those facts are important for journalists to keep in mind, the question underlying Moore and Gomez’s pieces is somewhat different: Is fact-checking ineffective at deterring false statements by politicians? The short answer: we don’t know. The continued prevalence of political misinformation might suggest that fact-checking movement has failed, but that’s the wrong standard to use. The fact-checking movement arose in response to a seeming increase in misleading statements by media-savvy politicians. How could we expect it to offset the factors (polarization, a PR arms race) that continue to drive that trend?
To accurately estimate the effect of fact-checking, we must instead consider a counterfactual scenario in which there were no fact-checkers but the world was otherwise identical. As I told Moore and Gomez, it’s hard to imagine that the problem of political misinformation wouldn’t be worse in that case.
So fact-checkers should keep their heads up. While a few articles may not make a difference, naming and shaming politicians who repeatedly mislead the public—as The Plain Dealer did with Mandel—can still inflict significant reputational damage over time.

Let's not ignore the issue that much of what purports to be fact checking is not. Reporters use the cloak of fact checking to register their disagreement with statements that are factual but that the reporters believe fail to address a more significant issue or fail to cite facts that are more congenial to the reporters' political or policy preferences.
When the currency of fact checking is debased, that undermines the value of not only the counterfeit fact checks but also the legitimate ones. We need more commentators to call out the fact checkers who stray from the path. Name them and shame them!
#1 Posted by RobC, CJR on Fri 30 Mar 2012 at 10:34 AM
@RobC,
Thanks for the comment. I don't think we ignore that issue here. Here's 2,000 words on it:
http://www.cjr.org/campaign_desk/what_the_fact-checkers_get_wro.php?page=all
#2 Posted by Greg Marx, CJR on Fri 30 Mar 2012 at 10:50 AM
I agree, Rob - lame fact-checks undermine the legitimacy and credibility of the approach.
#3 Posted by Brendan Nyhan, CJR on Fri 30 Mar 2012 at 10:53 AM
Lot of irony in this piece...
I most love this link
http://newamerica.net/publications/policy/the_rise_of_political_fact_checking_1
with the quote
"The modern-day fact checking movement can be dated back to the presidency of Ronald Reagan, who attracted widespread ridicule for his claim that trees cause four times more pollution than automobiles."
Its been proven that trees cause more pollution then automobiles....
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2012/01/11/new-study-confirms-that-nature-is-responsible-for-90-of-the-earths-atmospheric-acidity/
and this is why everyone laughs at so called "fact checkers" because they are ignorant fools who push a anti-science, partisan agenda.
Gomez piece was a joke nothing but a bunch of lies and poor attempts at justifying his bias.
As RobC has said commentators tend to do real fact checking in fact they did almost of fact checking of the "plain dealer" and its pretty clear they by their own citation are anti-mandel and pre-sherrod.
Much like fools who cite someone solely because they have a degree, or are "journalist" the appeal to "moral authority", "institutional authority", etc is failing because the internet lets people easily check the facts for themselves.
#4 Posted by robotech master, CJR on Fri 30 Mar 2012 at 12:17 PM
Thanks to Greg Marx and Brendan Nyhan for their comments, and Robotech Master is right to direct our attention to the Gomez article that is the subject of Brendan's essay. In that article, Henry Gomez of the Cleveland Plain Dealer complains about what he regards as a lack of consequences from the pieces by PolitiFact Ohio, which Gomez correctly identifies as "the fact-checking arm of The Plain Dealer." (Talk about an echo chamber!)
Read the articles by The Plain Dealer PolitiFact Ohio about Mandel's statements. They're classic examples of what happens when fact checking transmogrifies into advocacy journalism. Read them and weep. And let's hope respected commentators like Nyhan and Marx will name them and shame them.
#5 Posted by RobC, CJR on Fri 30 Mar 2012 at 01:11 PM
You see this is why fact checking is a thankless business.
Obfuscation is effortless.
Watts can put up a story about a study which is not a study(it's a confirmation of a study):
http://media.uow.edu.au/releases/UOW117279.html
In which nature is claimed to be the source of 90% of global formic acid emissions. Then, if we just quiet down the word formic, we can have a jolly god lol at the science.
But what does the science actually say? First you've got to find the paper confirmed:
http://smsc.cnes.fr/documentation/IASI/Publications/StavrakouNature2012.pdf
Then you've got to read it:
"Our model simulations predict that formic acid alone accounts for as much as 60–80% of the rainwater acidity over Amazonia, in accordance with in situ measurements, but also over boreal forests during summertime. Its contribution is also substantial at mid-latitudes, in particular over much of the US, where it reaches 30–50% during the summer."
So 90% of 50% of US rainwater acidity is caused by natural emissions, the type of acid being one that is, from the Wollongong link:
"Quickly absorbed by microbes, formic acid is not associated with the harmful effects of acid rain."
Now who is going to see this effort intensive fact check compared to the effortless and wide spread obfuscation? Lies have bigger guns and quicker deployment than truth, that is the reality? How does one deal with the imbalance beyond recommendation that everyone refresh snopes 9 times a day before believing a word they hear or read?
#6 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Fri 30 Mar 2012 at 02:58 PM
lol thimbles love it where did i mention acid rain I said pollution as did the link... and the study using "computer models" which is all that global warming is based on says they produce more pollution... pollution is after all whatever the media whats it to be...
Plus maybe you forgot but the latest acid crazy is the ocean kind of which this study clearly states the trees are polluting the ocean and making it acid but hey when its comes to doomsday I understand how you keep confusing all of them... being as their have been so many different excuses for why doomsday is tomorrow but yet were still alive.
Also lets not forgot "nature" doesn't cause acid rain... expect when it does... of which formic acid plays a part it... Lol I remember reading a sociology that claim acid rain doesn't happen naturally... typical ignorance of science... the biggest irony being its been near impossible to proof acid rain is anything but natural which is why that version of doomsday has be kicked to the curb... the new acid hotness is ocean acid... which is equally retarded and easily disproved.
#7 Posted by robotech master, CJR on Fri 30 Mar 2012 at 03:39 PM
If you are not "fact-checking" the Feds' anti-Iran lies and legislation, then you are helping the liars to murder untold thousands of innocent Iranian children, women, elderly, and unborn.
If you are not "fact-checking" the Feds' anti-freedom lies and legislation, then you are helping to further enslave about 300 million Americans, including yourself.
If you are not "fact-checking" the Republican nomination process, then you are helping the Feds lie to the people in order to elect another criminal-bankster puppet, Obomney.
If you are doing none of the above, then you can not call yourself a free and independent press. You deserve no 1st Amendment protections; you apparently do not want them anyway.
#8 Posted by Dan A., CJR on Fri 30 Mar 2012 at 05:48 PM
How terribly disappointing this comment thread. I suppose I was being naive in thinking that the readers of the CJR would be relatively levelheaded and dispassionate in their arguments. It's just another alley of trolls. Honestly, I feel sad. What chance does old school journalism, with its silly emphasis on facts, have against this shrillness?
#9 Posted by rshs, CJR on Sat 31 Mar 2012 at 12:11 PM
Don't fret too much. Dan does sometimes make a intelligent point though he has to sell Ron Paul while doing so, and robo is a hold over from a temporary idiot infestation dragged over here from "Waatsup wid dat!?" during the Glieck affair.
http://www.cjr.org/the_observatory/heartland_gleick_and_media_law.php#comments
Usually we do much better than this. Honest, even Padikiller is much better than this.
#10 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Sat 31 Mar 2012 at 12:46 PM
A teacher would be fired if her lectures were as unpredictable as the events the news media must investigate. Which is one of the reasons why surveys by the news media have repeatedly shown that the average Aermican is too ignorant to vote intelligently. This problem could be greatly reduced if the news media was willing to publish an annual seven day remedial education. And the gimmick that would make this week of recycled facts profitable woud also make it profitable to sell a textbook/photographic memory for the remedial education class. Then even more "reputational damage" coud be inflicted upon poltical scoundrels. But this wlll never happen because reporters are not interested in communicating like a teacher. They are only interested in the game of journalism. Points are scored for gotcha's. Not for educating the public. The news media is the ony group that has the ability to change how our democracy works. Politicians are controlled by forces they can't control. They must subsidize the most powerful special interest groups with unnecessary spending programs and cut taxes for everyone else. While voters can't vote more intelligently because one man, one vote is a lousy incentive for becoming an educated voter. Only the news media can do a better job of educating the public. But they don't want to. And this includes journalism professors and the people who work at CJR.
#11 Posted by Stanley Krauter, CJR on Sat 31 Mar 2012 at 12:57 PM
Something I wrote a while back under another good article on the subject:
http://www.cjr.org/behind_the_news/the_truth_about_public_untruths.php#comments
"What fact checkers need to do is to not only present facts, but to present them in a way that makes for a consistent narrative. It's not enough to explain that such and such is a lie, one should show what the purpose of the lie is, what's the story it's trying to tell, who benefits, what's the record of the individual spreading the misinfo.
Don't just measure the lie, measure the fairy tale the lie supports."
Interesting work along that line here:
http://digbysblog.blogspot.ca/2012/03/romneys-big-lie-by-davidoatkins.html
"But the biggest lie isn't any of these. It's the narrative. Romney is suggesting that President Obama's "fiscal irresponsibility" has "deepened the recession and delayed the recovery."..
So we have low taxes, low inflation, and a strong Treasuries market. Under those circumstances, it is quite literally economically impossible for government spending to have "deepened the recession and delayed the recovery." At worst it had no impact--and nearly every economist agrees that that itself is also untrue. Government spending had a considerable effect on lowering unemployment.
Sometimes it's so tempting and so easy to get caught up in refuting all of Romney's factual claims, that it's easy to lose sight of the big lie that is his narrative. It would be nice if members of the press would call him or his conservative friends out on this whopper. But that might be difficult, as they've all been telling the same big lie in their way for years."
#12 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Sat 31 Mar 2012 at 02:45 PM
lol thimbles
"What fact checkers need to do is to not only present facts, but to present them in a way that makes for a consistent narrative. It's not enough to explain that such and such is a lie, one should show what the purpose of the lie is, what's the story it's trying to tell, who benefits, what's the record of the individual spreading the misinfo.
Don't just measure the lie, measure the fairy tale the lie supports."
This type of comment is typical of your nutbag ideology... the fact and truth can't stand by itself we must set the "set the narrative".
"Setting the narrative" is exactly what current "fact checkers" do... if fact they spend far more time "setting the narrative" then presenting the facts which is why people are turning them off.
"Setting the narrative" is propaganda 101 on trying to cover up the facts of most sane people understand that. The truth will set you free as it were... is not the policy of "fact checkers" they couldn't care less about the truth or just presenting facts. As more and more people learn and understand how basic propaganda works people are refusing to believe it.
I also low this comment
"So we have low taxes, low inflation, and a strong Treasuries market."
Umm yeah we have insanely high taxes, insanely high inflation(at roughly 15-25% per year for the last 3 years) and a weak treasuries market...
Government spending can have an effect on unemployment IF and ONLY IF its not debt spending... if one could print and spend endlessly the USSR would have won the cold war easily because thats pretty much all they did.
#13 Posted by robotech master, CJR on Sat 31 Mar 2012 at 05:30 PM
"lol thimbles... Umm yeah we have insanely high taxes, insanely high inflation(at roughly 15-25% per year for the last 3 years) and a weak treasuries market..."
Nice story Chuckles.
Got anymore fairy tales from the reality challenged republican storybook?
#14 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Sat 31 Mar 2012 at 06:05 PM
o no you've posted an opinion piece based on nothing but propaganda...
and
another opinion based on nothing but propaganda...
how about some real stats
http://www.shadowstats.com/alternate_data/inflation-charts
http://www.shadowstats.com/charts/monetary-base-money-supply
#15 Posted by robotech master, CJR on Sat 31 Mar 2012 at 06:21 PM
Let's define the problems clearly.
The problem fact checkers have with conservatives is that they don't care about facts except to the extent that they help or hurt the stories they tell themselves.
http://digbysblog.blogspot.com/2012/03/fraudulent-recordings-its-just-how-they.html
Their narratives are their truths, they are myth motivated, facts which do not meet up with their myths are dismissed as attacks upon their tribe - not as reason to reevaluate what they hold to be true. This is human nature and everybody does this to a degree, but modern conservatives have exploited this for political purpose since Lee Atwater times. Liberals are defined as the other, the enemies of America not valid participants in its democracy. Conservatives have defined liberals as both powerfully monolith, to explain how conservatives are victimized by liberal society, and as weakly effeminate, to explain why strong conservatives deserve to take society back. Lovely myths, lovely stories, to get the troops out to the polls.
On the other side we have democrats.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mobileweb/drew-westen/leadership-obama-style-an_b_398813.html
Modern democrats have no message except "hey, we're not as bad as those guys". That will get them electorial success to a certain extent since they are and people outside the republican myth bubble know it. They cannot tell the story of how republicans are for the .01 percent while democrats are for the 99.99 percent because they require and accept donations from that same .01 percent. That is why they talk about facts in isolation because the moment A democrat tries to tell a story about why America has been so f&*%ed up since 2008, they have to talk about the inequality and deregulation democrats contributed to under Clinton and they have to use words like "fat cats" which the sensitive little hedge fund managers will never forgive Obama for - no matter how many times the democrats have let them off the hook.
The real story is that one party believes in nothing but stories, and let their beliefs run the global economy into a ditch - an experience from which they learned nothing because "myth is truth, if the world challenges my myth then the world is wrong".
And the other party believes in nothing and therefore will not stand for policy to mitigate climate change, in spite of science. They won't stand up for entitlements like social security, in spite of the easy fix of repealing the budget busting bush tax cuts. They won't stand up for works programs for unemployed or labor, in spite of the economy needing demand that comes from an empowered and affluent middle class.
Because stand up for something means standing up to something, donors and media that do not think the middle class needs help and think they need, in George Carlin's words, more for themselves and less for everyone else.
The American public, with few exceptions, is deprived of representation that will stand up for them. They have a choice between a party which is truely horrific and reality removed and a party which is less bad. This is a hard fact to deal with.
#16 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Sat 31 Mar 2012 at 07:09 PM
A good listen for the story on the party that believes in nothing:
http://m.blogtalkradio.com/virtuallyspeaking/2012/03/20/stuart-zechman-virtually-speaking-a-z
#17 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Sat 31 Mar 2012 at 07:21 PM
"Their narratives are their truths, they are myth motivated, facts which do not meet up with their myths are dismissed as attacks upon their tribe - not as reason to reevaluate what they hold to be true. This is human nature and everybody does this to a degree, but modern conservatives have exploited this for political purpose since Lee Atwater times."
This is true I hate conservatives they are a bunch of dirty centrists/center leftists... whats your point? Other then they do its less then the libtards?
"Liberals are defined as the other, the enemies of America not valid participants in its democracy."
First the US isn't a democracy... 2nd lets all hope that it never becomes one...
"Conservatives have defined liberals as both powerfully monolith, to explain how conservatives are victimized by liberal society, and as weakly effeminate, to explain why strong conservatives deserve to take society back."
Or basically just 5x what conservatives are...
"Modern democrats have no message except "hey, we're not as bad as those guys"."
But in reality they are everything they claim conservatives are but 5x worse...
"That is why they talk about facts in isolation because the moment A democrat tries to tell a story about why America has been so f&*%ed up since 2008, they have to talk about the inequality and deregulation democrats contributed to under Clinton and they have to use words like "fat cats" which the sensitive little hedge fund managers will never forgive Obama for - no matter how many times the democrats have let them off the hook."
bahahah yeah how bout since the 1930s/40s...
As for the fact cats... hello obama was bought and payed for by bankers, lawyers and hedge funds... and hamas terrorists and some other foreign money. Classic propaganda... i don't see the "fact checkers" pointing out those "inconvenient truth" to fools like you.
"The real story is that one party believes in nothing but stories,"
Critical race theory where fiction stories take the place of facts and law.... which party believes in that? O and only one party? Really only one party?
"And the other party believes in nothing and therefore will not stand for policy to mitigate climate change, in spite of science."
Its easy to "mitigate climate change" turn on your A/C unit or fire some frauds from NASA.
"They won't stand up for entitlements like social security, in spite of the easy fix of repealing the budget busting bush tax cuts. They won't stand up for works programs for unemployed or labor, in spite of the economy needing demand that comes from an empowered and affluent middle class."
By stand up for you mean shred the US Constitution which forbids these things from existing.
"Because stand up for something means standing up to something" yeah means standing up to the US Constitution... the thing you know they're swore to uphold and obey....
#18 Posted by robotech master, CJR on Sat 31 Mar 2012 at 07:23 PM
Just thought I'd do a bit of the old background on shadow government statistics since their inflation data looked, well, inflated. Turns out that yep, the guy's a bit of a crank:
http://traderscrucible.com/2011/02/01/why-shadow-government-statistics-is-very-very-very-wrong/
"I decided to do the math. Since we are fully in the year 2011, we would need to adjust the level of prices tby 1.09^10 to find out what prices were in 2000. I just went to the store and got some milk – milk is $2.99 a gallon at CVS, and the average price of a gallon of milk is $3.19 across the US, according to the BLS.
This would imply that in 2000, the cost of a gallon of milk was 3.19/1.09^10 or $1.34, or close to it. But I don’t ever remember paying $1.34 for a gallon of milk, not even in 1980. In fact, I remembrer paying about $2.79 a gallon in 2000. And that’s what the BLS numbers say too. Go back a few years more and that gallon of milk should have been nearly free, according to Shadow Stats."
More here:
http://www.econbrowser.com/archives/2008/09/shadowstats_deb.html
The guy, like Peter Schiff, loves to scream about hyper-inflation but if you invested based on his or Schiff's knowledge you lost money.
They don't understand zero-bound economics. They don't get the effect of collapsed global demand. They don't get that inflation is about more than just the money supply. It's Austrian crank stuff.
And that is why they are wrong all the time and, if you bet on their predictions of hyperinflation, you lost money.
#19 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Sun 1 Apr 2012 at 12:20 AM
So love the first link....
You clearly have no idea what shadowstats inflation data is based on... nor does the idiot that that you linked to.
Shadowstats use OFFICIAL government methods to track inflation... the owner/runner of the sites didn't just invent this methods out of thin air.
The inflation stat on the high side is using the government method from the late 80s of which was changed a couple times into the new "core inflation"(CPI) now being used.
If the genius at the link was saying that government inflation stats are wrong(all of them) then you'd have an argument... of course that argument would still prove you(thimbles) wrong.
As for the second link...
"And that is why they are wrong all the time and, if you bet on their predictions of hyperinflation, you lost money."
Really because I'm pretty sure oil, gold, sliver and a host of other inflation hedges are through the roof having near 500%+ gains since 2000... and what 150-200% gains in the last 4 years...
Gold is one of the best displays of inflation you have... and for "low inflation" it's been making alot of record highs recently.
I also note that your posting opinions from random blogs that you must have googled in an attempt to counter instead of arguing your own logic and reasoning... o wait you have none of that thus you must cut and paste others arguments in.
#20 Posted by robotech master, CJR on Sun 1 Apr 2012 at 01:52 AM
Let's do a simple discussion of inflation so that everyone can somewhat understand some basic concepts.
Inflation is the reduction of a currency's power to purchase goods. There are different types of inflation (such as whether the currency itself is inflating on the global market, which means the price of international goods becomes more expensive when denominated in that currency; or when the supply of goods within an economy becomes limited, which means the price of goods within that economy increases, but the currency does not lose power in the international markets) but there are a few interesting relationships which we can use to describe inflation.
Inflation is inversely related to the supply of a good.
Inflation is directly related to a cost of producing a good.
Inflation is directly related to the demand for a good.
And currency is a good, in its utility as a medium of exchange.
Now, in normal circumstances, increasing the money supply should cause inflation since the value of a good decreases as the effort required to get it decreases. If there is more money circulating, there should be less value to money, putting pressure on the price of goods to rise.
Under normal circumstances, an inflated dollar inflates the cost of good production, since the inputs cost more when denominated in the inflated currency. This puts more pressure on a good's price to rise.
Under normal circumstances, workers will not continue to work for inflated dollars unless wages are raised in recognition of inflation. This puts pressure on good production cost which puts pressure on prices which puts pressure on wages. A cycle can initiate.
Under normal circumstances, workers with lots of money (or lots of credit) buy goods, which reduces their supply, contributing to price pressure.
We don't have normal circumstances. Consumers bought goods with inflated values (like houses) with easy credit during the Bush years. Those goods have lost a tremendous amount of value while the outstanding debt has not. Consumers all over the world are trying to pay off debts with value dropping assets and their income. The income they are using to pay debt is income they aren't using to go shopping.
When people stop shopping, the supply of idle goods increases. Businesses drop prices to try and move their goods supply. They cut costs and fire people. People who have no income stream and no assets of significant worth really stop shopping. A cycle can initiate.
The people who predict hyperinflation are basing that prediction on money supply, but the fact of the matter is that money has been supplied to the banks, not to consumers. That money is not circulating. The value of fine art and italian automobiles may be inflating because the rich are flush with cash, but general prices for goods are staying steady, if not decreasing.
People in heavy debt cannot use low interest credit. People suspecting they will lose their jobs any month now are not going to splurge on goods nor demand raises for work.
You are not going to get much inflation until the economy's consumer base gets more money in their pockets and a new psychology in their heads. Insecure and poor consumers do not move goods off the shelves. Money supply doesn't matter. When Warren Buffet walks into a bar, every patron becomes a millionaire based on customer average worth, but if Warren Buffet is the only one who can afford a drink, the bartender isn't going to raise the price of beer. The hyper-inflationists are betting the bartender will.
#21 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Sun 1 Apr 2012 at 03:58 AM
Hyperinflationist 1.
http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot.ca/2009/01/peter-schiff-was-wrong.html
Hyperinflationist 2.
http://www.frumforum.com/inflation-hawks-lose-their-shirts
As I mentioned before, I've seen this in Japan. What America has done in spending is pennies on the dollar relative to what Japan did during its slump, and while Japan did a crap-load wrong during their asset collapse, as I'll link to below, the never the yen never collapsed and the country chugged along with double the debt America had.
And that was with a decade of low interest rates.
If you've never been through this kind of economic upheaval and you've only looked at one or two metrics as the basis of your predictions, you are going to be wrong.
When a central bank's interest rate hits the zero-bound with no effect on the economy because everybody has a debt hangover, the psychology behind economic behavior fundamentally changes. Your assumptions about how economics works must also change or you will have no idea what's going on.
#22 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Sun 1 Apr 2012 at 04:36 AM
The business on Japan.
http://www.cjr.org/the_audit/audit_notes_responsible_populi.php#comment-58980
And a post on why "We're doing it wrong!"
#23 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Sun 1 Apr 2012 at 04:51 AM
In other news:
http://thinkprogress.org/romm/2012/03/29/454476/a-message-from-a-republican-meteorologist-on-climate-change/
Fact. If we do not get our sh*t together on energy and atmospheric waste and we keep letting debunked dissemblers control the direction of the discussion, we are screwed.
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=global-warming-close-to-becoming-ir
Hyperinflationistas and free marketeers are always going to complain about how the sky is falling, money is collapsing, and socialism is around the corner.
The sky isn't falling. It's cooking. Fact: we really need to do something about that beyond the parameters of the party that believes in fairy tales and the party that believes in nothing. This is a clear and present danger.
#24 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Sun 1 Apr 2012 at 01:31 PM
but hey thanks for the link I've added it to my collection... I expect many more and know of many more...
also just to jump back to inflation a bit on the how "inflation isn't happening"
http://www.zerohedge.com/sites/default/files/images/user5/imageroot/draghi/gold%20ceiling%20old.jpg
I'm just saying... and so are the koreans and I know your a huge fan of at least one of the koreans...
You see while the money is the banking sector has mostly stayed there... which I agree with you on... the 3.6 trillion or so obama has pumped into the economy through debt spending is just that... into the economy and since we're projected to break the debt ceiling yet again this year(around September) they will of course increase it again... because the party of the center-left(GOP) and the party and fascism/communism(Democrats) both want to spend more... just a matter of how much more.
If the debt spending increases that increases inflation period because that money goes straight out into the econ... the problem you got now if that thats causing the inflation now... if those banks which are sitting on trillions of dollar suddenly flush that money into the market onto of 4 more years of obama spending that will cause hyperinflation. The only thing that is keeping inflation "high" instead insane is that the banks are hoarding all that money.
#25 Posted by robotech master, CJR on Sun 1 Apr 2012 at 04:26 PM
a good video talking about inflation and how it hurts the poor the most... and remember bailing out the banks was necessary according to occupy wall street.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=NSC8J-_WkZ0
#26 Posted by robotech master, CJR on Sun 1 Apr 2012 at 06:05 PM
"You see while the money is the banking sector has mostly stayed there... which I agree with you on... the 3.6 trillion or so obama has pumped into the economy through debt spending is just that... into the economy..."
First off, we have to be clear about what actually Obama's spending is. Much of these deficits are not the result of increased spending, they are the result of economic contraction.
Economic contraction causes people to seek help from the social programs which act as economic stabilizers. This glut in unemployment insurance/food stamps/medicare causes more government spending, but is in no way a result of the leadership. The spending is automatically triggered when people apply for it.
Economic contraction also causes tax revenues to go down. People on UI, food stamps, and medicare are not paying much in income nor payroll taxes.
The states get hit really hard buy this because property tax revenues go down as assessed property values go down and sales tax revenue goes down as people stop shopping. Because many states have laws that prevent borrowing and/or raising taxes without super majorities, the states must either rely on increased federal transfer payments to patch the budget holes or they must start firing teachers, firefighters, policemen, etc..
Economic contraction means government expenses go up and revenues go down - regardless of a leader's governing philosophy.
http://www.cbpp.org/cms/index.cfm?fa=view&id=3036
The only way Obama could have brought down the deficit was to end the wars and the Bush era tax cuts, policies which conservative republicans and democrats will not accept.
He could have also used the Sweden/Iceland models of dealing with financial crisis and resolved it in half a decade instead of the decades which the financial system will need to take under the Japan model, but elites and donors again would not have tolerated it.
So Obama's spending isn't all that much. Bernanke and Geithner have been shoveling wads of printed money out to the banks without much congressional oversight, but aside from them, the federal government has been spending just enough to tread water and when taking into account the contraction of government state and municipal, government spending has shrunk under Obama:
http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/01/27/the-role-of-austerity/
Obama lowballed the stimulus, put a third of it in relatively useless tax cuts, and emphasized temporary "shovel ready" projects instead of the infrastructure building America desperately needs.
It's no wonder that the consumer market is still depressed.
And this has an impact on the banks and corporation who have all the cash.
#27 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Sun 1 Apr 2012 at 09:23 PM
thimble first one of my posts... 593 words total got eaten by the filter because its got like 10 links in it so hold on for a bit.
But i'll counter some of your points right away.
"Much of these deficits are not the result of increased spending, they are the result of economic contraction."
Yes and no... obama has personally spent around 2 trillion directly for his programs... maybe you forgot about the many many stimulus packages. This packages were spending plan and simple.
"Economic contraction also causes tax revenues to go down." Tax revenues are only down 400 billion
2005 2,153.6 2,472.0 -318.3
2006 2,406.9 2,655.1 -248.2
2007 2,568.0 2,728.7 -160.7
2008 2,524.0 2,982.5 -458.6
2009 2,105.0 3,517.7 -1,412.
2010 2,162.7 3,456.2 -1,293.5
http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/taxfacts/displayafact.cfm?Docid=200
First number is total theft from the public, 2nd number is total spent and 3rd is difference.
First note how the evil tea party has cut spending to the bone(bahaha).
Second note that tax income is the same as 2005... you know when we were massively involved in iraq and Afghanistan not actively pulling out as we are now.
Note spending has gone through the roof... spending increases account for nearly 1 trillion per year in increased debt.
So the mythic claim that somehow "low taxes" are to blame is pure myth... and the idea that somehow the tea party has force the government to kill poor people because they blocked spending is also pure propaganda... the tea party for all its work barely dented obama spending habits. However I would wager that without the tea party we would probably be looking at 2 trillion dollars in debt per years if obama had had free run.
#28 Posted by robotech master, CJR on Sun 1 Apr 2012 at 09:44 PM
"if those banks which are sitting on trillions of dollar suddenly flush that money into the market onto of 4 more years of obama spending that will cause hyperinflation."
Why would they? Yes they have money (which is paying off their own huge debts secured by worthless assets (foreclosed houses) as a result of the credit binge they funded with borrowed cash) but why would they spend it? If there is no demand, and corporations have supply sitting on the shelf, why would they spend their cash?
Charity?
That bank money will not be going back into the economy, it will be used to pay off the bank creditors and make bets in economies that have better opportunities for yields on investments.
When the economy is fragile and risky, banks and corporations keep their money in safe places.
While banks and corporations are keeping their money out of the economy, the economy remains fragile and risky.
It's similar dynamic to the race condition problem the real estate market had.
The problem is, since the government is staffed with people sympathetic to the corporations' and banks' interests, the government and the federal reserve are backstopping the corporations and banks, not the general economy.
Save the banks, save the world.
So we're left back at where I started, "You are not going to get much inflation until the economy's consumer base gets more money in their pockets and a new psychology in their heads. Insecure and poor consumers do not move goods off the shelves."
And Japan, with 200% their GDP borrowed and long term stable inflation, versus America's 70% of GDP borrowed and likely long term stable inflation, is proof of that fact.
Fix the economy and, once the engine is running right, then fix the deficit and any detrimental inflation (inflation is actually good for debtors, so long as the wages the debt is denominated in go up with it. Inflation is bad for creditors (erodes the value of their claims on future revenue) and for large investors (because it erodes the value of low risk, low return investments).
#29 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Sun 1 Apr 2012 at 10:28 PM
Wow, something I've talked about in the past:
http://www.cjr.org/the_audit/corporate_welfare_columns_yea.php#comment-25794
"Jude Wanniski used to talk about how conservatives had a hard time because the democrats were always the Santa Claus; devoting tax revenues to welfare, medicare, and social security while the republicans were always Grinches; cutting taxes which led to cutting programs which led to Mr Potter caricatures. What Wanniski put forward is that republicans could be two santa clauses...
They could cut taxes AND increase programs based on projected revenues from laffable economics (or was it voodoo economics. Oh, I can't remember)...
It's not an economic theory, it's a strategy for political warfare."
It's one thing when I yap about it, it's another when it comes from the horse's mouth, AEI apostate Bruce Bartlett:
http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/03/20/the-origin-of-modern-republican-fiscal-policy/
"In 1976, the journalist Jude Wanniski wrote an essay, “Taxes and a Two-Santa Theory,” little noticed at the time and virtually unknown today, that put forward a theory that has had extraordinary influence on the Republican Party. Indeed, virtually everything Republicans say about taxes and spending today echoes that theory...
Mr. Wanniski’s most important contribution to the emerging supply-side philosophy, however, was his “Two-Santas” article, published in The National Observer on March 6, 1976. The Observer was a weekly published by Dow Jones that folded in 1977; consequently, it has been pretty much forgotten. (The article doesn’t even appear among the archives of Mr. Wanniski’s work at the Polyconomics Web site; I retyped it myself from a reprint Jack Kemp used to hand out when I worked for him, and I posted it here.)
The essence of the Wanniski argument was that each political party needed to be a different sort of Santa Claus. The Democrats were the spending Santa Claus, promising more government benefits. The Republicans should be the tax-cut Santa Claus, he said.
Many of the nation’s problems in 1976 stemmed from the unwillingness of Republicans to play that proper role. Instead of being the tax-cut Santa, they had become the party of fiscal austerity. The balanced budget was the sine qua non of Republican economic policy. This was both bad economics and bad politics, Mr. Wanniski said.
Instead of worrying about the deficit, he said, Republicans should just cut taxes and push for faster growth, which would make the debt more bearable...
Unfortunately, Mr. Wanniski opened Pandora’s box when he let loose the two-Santa theory. Republicans are now bound to it, whether they know it or not."
#30 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Sun 1 Apr 2012 at 10:43 PM
"That bank money will not be going back into the economy, it will be used to pay off the bank creditors and make bets in economies that have better opportunities for yields on investments. "
Umm... thats putting it into the economy...
"Save the banks, save the world."
Thats the occupy wall street motto right there.
"The essence of the Wanniski argument was that each political party needed to be a different sort of Santa Claus. The Democrats were the spending Santa Claus, promising more government benefits. The Republicans should be the tax-cut Santa Claus, he said."
The irony of this is that its this theory is well known by most people who understand that the GOP is center left and really just a lesser version of the full on socialism of democrats.
The problem with it much like all theory that are short term socialist ideas is that its a short term socialist idea... at some point you have to pay the money bank you borrow... or default. Either way that results in a resetting of the system... the GOP is moving more toward the center of trying to at least stop the growth of the national debt.
This has resulted in less easy money and thus less fake growth. The problem is of course everything is in a bubble and at some point everything must correct... all the fake growth that the trillion of national debt has caused must either be payed back to keep the growth(fat chance of that happening) or it must be defaulted on which result in all the fake growth going away.
The really only 2 possible actions that can happen now is either more printing/spending ever increasing in rate to try to out run the default... or default.
Japan has managed to out run default because it was the only one in the race... the problem when you cite japan is not you have the EU and US in the race to the bottom... Much like greece WILL default at sometime in the future even though its gotten all the bailout money and so forth it WILL default. Its just a matter of how many years those billion bought... and its looking like only a few years at best.
The US will run into the same problem... maybe not tomorrow maybe not for 10 years but at some point the US will default on the national debt.
#31 Posted by robotech master, CJR on Sun 1 Apr 2012 at 11:30 PM
"Umm... thats putting it into the economy..."
Whose economy?
"Thats the occupy wall street motto right there."
Dude, I coined that phrase to describe the Bernanke, Geithner, Obama, Holder apporach to the banks since 2009ish? OWS has been saying since inception that Obama and the banks are unacceptably close and have left the public behind in the recovery as a result. William Black, Elizabeth Warren, and Matt Taibbi are names on the tongue of most OWS'ers, having provided much of the intellectual foundation for it.
Have you read what they have been saying about the banks since 2008?
http://www.cjr.org/the_audit/so_thats_why_the_press_wont_co_1.php
"ELIZABETH WARREN: Who says a bank, a bank is going to survive — Who is not worried about the fact that the Bank of America’s default rate has now bumped over 10%? That’s at least the latest data I saw. So the idea that we’re going to somehow fix the banks and then next year or next decade we’re going to start worrying about the American family just doesn’t [Davidson talking over] make any sense.
DAVIDSON: The American families are not — These issues of crucial, the essential need for credit intermediation are as close to accepted principles among every serious thinker on this topic. The view that the American family, that you hold very powerfully, is fully under assault and that there is — and we can get into that — that is not accepted broad wisdom. I talk to a lot a lot a lot of left, right, center, neutral economists [and] you are the only person I’ve talked to in a year of covering this crisis who has a view that we have two equally acute crises: a financial crisis and a household debt crisis that is equally acute in the same kind of way. I literally don’t know who else I can talk to support that view. I literally don’t know anyone other than you who has that view, and you are the person [snicker] who went to Congress to oversee it and you are presenting a very, very narrow view to the American people.
ELIZABETH WARREN: I’m sorry. That is not a narrow view. What you are saying is that it is the broad view to think only about trying to save the banks [Davidson sputters] and say “Hey! the American economy will recover at some point and we’ll worry about the families [Davidson talking over].” I think that is the narrow view and I think I have the broad view. The broad view is that these two things are connected to each other. And the notion that you can save the banking system while the American economy goes down the tubes is just foolish."
That's the hostile treatment we've been getting from everyone to the right of NP fricken R. The establishment view is "Save the Banks, Save the World" and "Everybody else gets austerity in order to build the perception of economic confidence, THE BOND MARKET DEMANDS IT!"
OWS is the only force challenging that view. Stop slandering it.
#32 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Mon 2 Apr 2012 at 12:20 AM
Facts.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/the-rights-stealthy-coup/2012/04/01/gIQAZlBjpS_story.html
"Right before our eyes,[really Mr. EJ Dionne? The last 30 years of radicalism is 'before your eyes' to you? Has it really been that stealthy? Tch. Technicalities] American conservatism is becoming something very different from what it once was. Yet this transformation is happening by stealth because moderates are too afraid to acknowledge what all their senses tell them.
Last week’s Supreme Court oral arguments on health care were the most dramatic example of how radical tea partyism has displaced mainstream conservative thinking. It’s not just that the law’s individual mandate was, until very recently, a conservative idea. Even conservative legal analysts were insisting it was impossible to imagine the court declaring the health-care mandate unconstitutional, given its past decisions.
So imagine the shock when conservative justices repeatedly spouted views closely resembling the tweets and talking points issued by organizations of the sort funded by the Koch brothers...
To cobble together bipartisan support, sponsors of the ersatz Simpson-Bowles amendment kept all of the commission’s spending cuts but slashed the amount it prescribed for tax increases in half. See how relentless pressure from the right turns self-styled moderates into conservatives? If there’s a cave-in, it’s always to starboard.
Note how many deficit hawks regularly trash President Obama for not endorsing Simpson-Bowles while they continue to praise Ryan — even though Ryan voted to kill the initiative when he was a member of the commission. Here again is the double standard that benefits conservatives, proving that, contrary to establishment opinion, Obama was absolutely right not to embrace the Simpson-Bowles framework. If he had, a moderately conservative proposal would suddenly have defined the “left wing” of the debate, just because Obama endorsed it.
This is nuts. Yet mainstream journalism and mainstream moderates play right along...
If supposed moderates refuse to call out the new conservatism for the radical creed it has become, their timidity will make them complicit in an intellectual coup they could have prevented."
And if they do call it out, they will be tossed to the curb like Frum and Bartlett.
What needs to be recognized is that the mainstream liberal culture isn't liberal, it's moderate centrist and it goes right by default.
Why?
Because the moderates need to work with these radicals who won't negotiate. They want to be able to say to the public "Hey, we're reasonable. We gave the right practically everything and they still won't deal with us. We're moderate centrists. We don't let our beliefs get in the way of getting things done."
Then they refuse to talk about about how radical conservatives are being (because what? That might make future negotiations harder? WTF is the point of compromising with people whom you know won't negotiate if you don't draw that contrast out before the public?)
Then they yap about how they aren't like real liberals who are just as bad as those other radicals somehow. There's got to be a Limbaugh, Beck, and Breitbart of the left somewhere who are somehow just as awful and yet tolerated so that both sides are proportionate, so that place in the middle somehow means something real.
If you are in the middle after the last 30 years, you are wrong. You are part of the problem. You support wholesale damage to America's once enlightened society just to get something done with those radicals on the right. And you attack liberals who say no to your compromises because they are suppose
#33 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Mon 2 Apr 2012 at 03:04 AM
"And you attack liberals who say no to your compromises because they are supposed..." to be on your team.
You are wrong.
(600 char limit, you sunk me again.)
#34 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Mon 2 Apr 2012 at 03:16 AM
Thomas Frank is in fine form today, can I hear an 'oh snap'?
http://thebaffler.com/notebook/2012/03/too_smart_to_fail
"Too Smart to Fail: Notes on an Age of Folly
...
But what rankles now is our failure, after each of these disasters, to come to terms with how we were played. Each separate catastrophe should have been followed by a wave of apologies and resignations; taken together—and given that a good percentage of the pundit corps signed on to two or even three of these idiotic storylines—themy mandated mass firings in the newsrooms and op-ed pages of the nation. Quicker than you could say “Ahmed Chalabi,” an entire generation of newsroom fools should have lost their jobs.
But that’s not what happened. Plenty of journalists have been pushed out of late, but the ones responsible for deluding the public are not among them...
What I didn’t understand was that these were moral failures, mistakes that were hardwired into the belief systems of the organizations and professions and social classes in question...
But the problem goes far beyond politics. We have become a society that can’t self-correct, that can’t address its obvious problems, that can’t pull out of its nosedive. And so to our list of disasters let us add this fourth entry: we have entered an age of folly that—for all our Facebooking and the twittling tweedle-dee-tweets of the twitterati—we can’t wake up from...
And as we serve money, we find that money wants the same thing from us: to push everyone it beguiles in the same direction. Money never seems to be interested in strengthening regulatory agencies, for example, but always in subverting them, in making them miss the danger signs in coal mines and in derivatives trading and in deep-sea oil wells. You can have a shot at being part of the 1 percent, money tells us, only if you are first committed to making the 1 percent stronger, to defending their piles in some new and imaginative way, to rationalizing and burnishing their glory, to exempting them from regulation or taxation, to bowing down as they pass, and to believing in your heart that their touch will heal scrofula...
the economists who warned of a bubble in real estate prices and the handful of journalists who figured out that crazy retail lending practices were inflating the profits of the Wall Street banks. Were society to honor these people, however, just think about who we would be lionizing: a handful of uncelebrated business reporters; economists like Dean Baker, who has spent much of his career deriding consensus economic wisdom; and out-of-the-way publications like Mother Jones, the Pittsburgh City Paper, and Southern Exposure (“Journal of the Progressive South”) that stumbled across the big scoop because they happened to be interested in sweaty, wretched subjects like predatory lending...
You must have been wrong back then in order to have a chance to be taken seriously today; only by having gotten things wrong can you demonstrate that you are trustworthy, a member of the team. (Those who got things right all along, on the other hand, might be dubbed “premature market skeptics”—people who doubted the consensus before the consensus acknowledged it was all right to doubt.)...
if economists—and journalists, and bankers, and bond analysts, and accountants—don’t pay some price for egregious and repeated misrepresentations of reality, then markets aren’t efficient after all. Either the gentlemen of the consensus must go, or their cherished hypothesis must be abandoned. The world isn’t gullible enough to believe both of them any longer."
Read the whole thing, the taste here does not do justice to the full course.
#35 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Mon 2 Apr 2012 at 06:37 PM
"You are not going to get much inflation until the economy's consumer base gets more money in their pockets and a new psychology in their heads. Insecure and poor consumers do not move goods off the shelves."
And on that note, here's Kruggy:
http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/04/03/screw-your-analysis-to-the-sticky-point/
What the paper shows is that many, many workers are getting precisely zero wage growth in dollar terms..
The prevalence of zero-change wages constitutes overwhelming evidence that we’re suffering from lack of demand, not lack of supply. It also undercuts one of the favorite arguments of those claiming that we really do have a supply-side problem, the persistence of (low) inflation and positive wage growth despite the low level of employment. The reason we have positive wage growth is that workers with a good bargaining position are still managing to eke out increases, while those without aren’t facing wage cuts..
Oh, and someone is sure to chime in and say that this proves that the solution to unemployment is to make wages more flexible. No, it isn’t: in a liquidity trapped, deleveraging economy lower wages would actually worsen the situation."
Here's the reality of the situation. We have tried for 30-40 years to sacrifice wage growth for asset growth That strategy has been a bust.
Why?
a) Assets are priced in relation to people's ability to pay for them (Duh).
b) Wage cuts (through stagnant wages during low inflation or actual wage cuts through labor market competition) affect people's ability to buy assets. This fact can be hidden by credit, but not forever.
Therefore,
c) When credit fails, those assets fall. And when those assets fall, all of the pensions, insurers, 401k's etc.. who depended on asset and market growth to provide sufficient returns to make their payouts fall.
The solution? The asset strategy failed. It was dumb to begin with. Go back and devise a strategy to build wages again.
You cannot have a growing economy when your credit system is maxed out (committing future revenues to present costs) and wages are stagnant or falling. You need consumer demand. You need wages.
Can I get a 'hell ya'?
#36 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Tue 3 Apr 2012 at 02:25 PM
Argh stupid pensions! Yor doing it rong!
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/02/business/pension-funds-making-alternative-bets-struggle-to-keep-up.html
"Searching for higher returns to bridge looming shortfalls, public workers’ pension funds across the country are increasingly turning to riskier investments in private equity, real estate and hedge funds.
But while their fees have soared, their returns have not. In fact, a number of retirement systems that have stuck with more traditional investments in stocks and bonds have performed better in recent years, for a fraction of the fees."
Why do you dogs keep returning to the same old vomit?
#37 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Tue 3 Apr 2012 at 03:15 PM
"Fix the economy and, once the engine is running right, then fix the deficit and any detrimental inflation (inflation is actually good for debtors, so long as the wages the debt is denominated in go up with it. Inflation is bad for creditors (erodes the value of their claims on future revenue) and for large investors (because it erodes the value of low risk, low return investments))."
Krugman on inflation
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/06/opinion/krugman-not-enough-inflation.html
"Fundamentally, the right wants the Fed to obsess over inflation, when the truth is that we’d be better off if the Fed paid less attention to inflation and more attention to unemployment. Indeed, a bit more inflation would be a good thing, not a bad thing.
O.K., I know that many readers are already outraged. But bear with me, and let me take this in stages.
First, about inflation obsession: For at least three years, right-wing economists, pundits and politicians have been warning that runaway inflation is just around the corner, and they keep being wrong. Do you remember the tirades about “debasing the dollar” around this time last year? Do you remember the scorn heaped on Mr. Bernanke last spring when he argued that the bulge in inflation taking place at the time was just a temporary blip caused by gasoline prices and would soon recede? Well, he was right. At this point, inflation is once again running a bit below the Fed’s self-declared target of 2 percent...
How so? For one thing, large parts of the private sector continue to be crippled by the overhang of debt accumulated during the bubble years; this debt burden is arguably the main thing holding private spending back and perpetuating the slump. Modest inflation would, however, reduce that overhang — by eroding the real value of that debt — and help promote the private-sector recovery we need. Meanwhile, other parts of the private sector (like much of corporate America) are sitting on large hoards of cash; the prospect of moderate inflation would make letting the cash just sit there less attractive, acting as a spur to investment — again, helping to promote overall recovery."
One caveat, inflation will only help consumers with debt overhang (or hangover, as I prefer to call it - tomaetoes tomahtoes) if wages rise in response to inflation. If we allow corporate America to continue repressing wages, then money, which would be used to pay down debt, would be consumed by price spikes in goods.
Yes, corporations spurred into investing would be good and might lower the unemployment rate, but the way the fed and corporate America has worked since the Clinton boom is that as the supply of labor has dropped, the threats to relocate production to China and Mexico have risen dismantling the ability for labor to demand raises.
If anything, benefits for work have been cut since Clinton. Workers need to have a bigger voice and play a bigger role in the economy if the recovery is ever going to have any durability.
#38 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Fri 6 Apr 2012 at 03:56 PM
This post reiterates my point rather beautifully:
http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2012/04/dan-kervick-contra-krugman-why-increasing-inflation-is-not-likely-to-increase-employment.html
"Krugman’s two main arguments for the beneficial results of inflation are questionable. First, he argues that inflation will help reduce private sector debt overhang. But inflation only reduces debt overhang in a significant way for households who are fortunate enough to see their nominal wages rise along with the general rise in prices. In today’s economy, workers are frequently not so fortunate.
Suppose you work 40 hours a week for $1000 of take home pay, and you have a weekly debt bill of $500 and a weekly consumption bill of $500. So you work 20 hours for debt repayment and 20 hours for consumption. Now let’s suppose prices rise by 5%. Then the same basket of consumption goods you purchased before for $500 now costs you $525. Your debt bill, which is fixed in nominal terms, remains $500 per week.
Suppose also that your employer does not give you a raise, but chooses to take advantage of the inflation by keeping your nominal wages right where they were at $1000 per 40 hours. Then the result will be that you will have to decrease your real consumption by 4.7%. You will continue to work 20 hours for debt repayment and 20 hours for consumption, but now your consumption will be lower in real terms.
This worry about employers’ behavior is a real one. We don’t live in the old days of strong unions and the wage-price spiral that existed when economists like Krugman were cutting their teeth. We live in a permanent buyers’ market for labor characterized by persistently high unemployment and minimal worker bargaining power. As prices rise, many people’s nominal wages stay fixed or lag well behind the price level increase. Real wages go down and ordinary folks feel the sting of higher prices without the benefits on debt relief...
The MMT approach to full employment is a federal job guarantee program that will stand ready to offer a job to anyone both willing and able to take it."
There are things I disagree with when it comes to MMT, but this is the right policy - public works to create public assets and to decrease the supply of cheap and insecure labor.
We need wages, not austerity, not handouts, not free trade where jobs are exported and cheap goods are imported which we can afford once we get a line of credit.
Wages!
#39 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Mon 9 Apr 2012 at 03:28 PM
I take heart from polls indicating that very few Americans believe that Romney says what he believes rather than what people want to hear. Perhaps polls and election results will eventually fairly clearly punish those perceived to be fundamentally dishonest. Perhaps, too, the fact checkers have some influence on the mainstream national media, pushing them to highlight transparent dishonesty.
Then again, perhaps not.
#40 Posted by Andrew Sprung, CJR on Fri 17 Aug 2012 at 09:46 AM