There was one near-universal takeaway from Day Two of oral arguments before the Supreme Court: The requirement that almost all Americans carry insurance, the central point of the Affordable Care Act, may be in trouble. Dire-sounding headlines featuring phrases like “possible trouble,” “key justices skeptical,” and “Supreme Court expresses doubt” made it clear the media grasped the main thrust of Tuesday’s arguments. Government lawyers tried to claim that forcing Americans to buy health coverage was constitutional, and the press recorded the arguments, quoting liberally from the questions and answers of both parties in the dispute.
The Wall Street Journal led with this message of pessimism about the law’s future:
The Supreme Court’s conservative justices sharply challenged the Obama administration’s health-care overhaul Tuesday, raising clearly the prospect that the president’s signature domestic achievement could be struck down.
The AP seemed to agree, reporting in its lede that “sharp questioning by the Supreme Court’s conservative justices cast serious doubt Tuesday on the survival of the individual insurance requirement.” The New York Times noted that the government’s lawyer faced a barrage of skeptical questions from four of the Supreme Court’s more conservative justices, “suggesting that a 5-to-4 decision to strike down the law was a live possibility.” The Washington Post reported the conservative judges “appeared deeply skeptical” that the mandate is constitutional, “endangering the most ambitious domestic program to emerge form Congress in decades.” In its lede, the Los Angeles Times spotlighted the sharp questioning from conservative justices, beginning its story this way:
The Supreme Court’s conservative justices Tuesday laid into the requirement in the Obama administration’s healthcare law that Americans have health insurance. Even before the administration’s top lawyer could get three minutes into his defense of the mandate, some justices accused the government of pushing for excessive authority to require Americans to buy anything.
Once news stories moved beyond the first couple of graphs, they reported on the questions and the answers from Solicitor General Donald Verrilli, who according to some accounts did not do such a hot job of explaining the mandate, why it should go forward, and why the government should force people to buy a product—in this case, health insurance—when it doesn’t do the same for other goods like broccoli and cell phones. “Can the government require you to buy a cell phone?” asked Chief Justice John Roberts.
The ABC News blog noted that Verrilli “seemed at times nervous and hoarse, arguing on behalf of the law.” Reuters got into more detail, seeming to soft-pedal his performance. Reuters reported that Verrilli took a “low-key approach” in his arguments, and that at times the liberal justices, especially Justice Elena Kagan and Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg, had to help him out. Coming to Verrilli’s aid, Ginsburg “stressed that healthcare was more about timing, that people pay in now and take it out when needed,” Reuters reported. “That’s how insurance works,” Ginsberg added. A close read of the transcript shows that at times Verrilli did muddle his argument.
For me, though, the real takeaway from Day Two was not that the mandate may be in trouble or that Justice Anthony Kennedy may be the swing vote, as he often is in these contentious issues, or that demonstrators from both camps (which some outlets reported on) were out in the streets. It was that there was—at last—some good, clear reporting on what the individual mandate was all about. During the health reform debate, the media did a bad job of explaining the mandate, what it was, why it was necessary, and whom it would affect. It’s no wonder that about half of Americans oppose the law and particularly hate the mandate. Perhaps it was not in the interests of supporters to call much attention to the mandate—or in the interests of opponents, who knew they would eventually challenge it in the courts and use it as the ultimate political weapon in the presidential election.

"and that at times the liberal justices, especially Justice Elena Kagan and Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg, had to help him out."
What a shock the bitch that wrote the legal reasoning and justification of obamacare is actively campaign in court to support it.
The fact this will goto a 5-4 split show the court is a joke... anything less then a 9-0 vote against it is straight tearing up the US Constitution.
The media has done everything possible to bury any reporting on the healthcare bill and to help push the bill through before anyone even had the chance to read it let alone understand it.
Half the the bill is about creating new groups that will create new regulations... this means that these groups can completely change huge sections of the bill at will and are non-elected and in some cases completely immune from government and in some cases even judicial oversight.
The media made sure and still makes sure no one bothers to read the bill and instead run some drama in the hopes that the useful idiots will come out in force to start trouble.
#1 Posted by robotech master, CJR on Wed 28 Mar 2012 at 03:54 PM
'The mandate affects only 25 million people.' Are advocates such as Trudy Lieberman trying to soft-pedal the mandate in view of its lasting unpopularity? It's a landmark and all, using NPR's predictable vocabulary (terms like 'landmark' and 'milestone' are reserved for policies approved by the urban bourgeois chattering classes, while a landmark First Amendment case such as 'Citizens United' is not honored by such language), but it won't really change much, see.
Leftist chattering-class folks are always alternating between proclaiming how important their new laws are, and at the same time(sensing skepticism) low-balling their impact. Which could, for a majority of citizens, maybe more than the affected 25 million, be negative on balance.
#2 Posted by Mark Richard, CJR on Wed 28 Mar 2012 at 04:57 PM
That 25 million number was based on those who chose not to get insurance but were working/would be required to have insurance under the mandate. The thing they don't say is the mandate covers another 50+ million people also who have/had insurance through where they work. Since many many people have lost their jobs and/or been force to take lower paying jobs that number is likely in the 35-40 million today vs 25 million when first "claimed". If more people keep losing more games or having to take lower and lower paying jobs then the number will keep increasing.
This is just another fact the media has no interesting in understanding and damn sure doing everything possible not to report on it.
#3 Posted by robotech master, CJR on Wed 28 Mar 2012 at 05:47 PM
The issue isn't actually whether insurance coverage can be mandated (social security already does that for old age pensions); rather it's whether the law as written can constitutionally mandate coverage and that's because the congressional majority wanted to have its cake and eat it too. Had the law imposed a tax on those who didn't purchase health insurance, the justices have made it clear that it would be constitutional. Instead, to avoid the "stigma" of a "tax increase", they called it a "penalty" and know the law is in trouble.
#4 Posted by Jerry, CJR on Thu 29 Mar 2012 at 12:26 PM
To Jerry's comment I would add that President Obama (and Paul Krugman, on 'This Week') denied during the sales period of 2009-10 that the penalty was a 'tax'. Something that our crack/hack journalists have chosen not to recall in the context of this debate. Put it up there with the President's 'hot mike' gaffes, and you with have material for the talk-show comedians, but the chattering classes don't have the guts to ridicule this president, even as his AG asserts his chief's right to order the assassination of whomever he pleases.
#5 Posted by Mark Richard, CJR on Thu 29 Mar 2012 at 12:35 PM
Mark, this president gets ridiculed and attacked puh-lenty by the chatterers (he was accused of being a dick on tv not so long ago) and his positions on civil liberties and banking non-regulation get attacked often, but the idiots on the right are so consistently freaking out about stupid, hypocritical, dishonest, or socially regressive issues that people have to spend more of their time defending the president from the above than critiquing the real issues of governement capture by industries and the weakening of civil liberties.
It is hard to have a conversation about real issues when you've got Breitbartesque rhetoric being mainstreamed by the right.
"I think that the unarmed drones progra-"
"STOP RAPING PEOPLE"
"Why are we counting actions that the banks would do regardless of their 20 billion immunity fine as payment towards that-"
"STOP RAPING PEOPLE"
"Hmmn. It appears the people's caucus came out with a budget that does a better job of fixing America's real fiscal problems that Erskine Bowles, but Obama isn-"
"STOP RAPING PEOPLE"
*sigh* "Shut up about RAPING PEOPLE you ignorant lying teahadist freakjobs! Nobody is raping anybody! Shut up! Shut up!"
I'd rather talk about real issues, as any search of the archives would testify, but the bullhorn squad on your side is not interested in facts and discussion.
It's hard to discuss real issues with people who have lost connection with what constitutes 'real'.
http://scienceblog.com/53012/study-conservatives-trust-in-science-has-fallen-dramatically-since-mid-1970s/
Fix that burst plumbing, then you can come back and complain about our dripping faucets.
The problem with American politics today is that the democrats are the conservatives - the third way took possession of that republican field during the eighties and nineties, which is why the scotus is arguing the merits of the conservative proposed individual mandate.
That means the republicans need to go to the right of conservative to have a distinct identity and platform to run on. They can be radical libertarians and/or radical theocrats, because reasonable small government, pro-business, national security hawk, social conservatism belongs to Harold Ford/Barack Obama democrats.
What does a republican have to really complain about other than
"STOP RAPING PEOPLE"
#6 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Thu 29 Mar 2012 at 02:10 PM
And yeah, the funny thing about mandates and this court is that it had no problem mandating the criminalization of cannabis.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gonzales_v._Raich
"No sir, the government has no authority to force you to buy broccoli, but it does have the power to criminalize it."
The government has the power to mandate certain things under certain circumstances.
The definition of what constitutes "things and circumstances" should be the subject of judiciary discussion, not whether the government has the right to mandate certain things as necessary and other things as banned.
Is car insurance not mandated for vehicles on the road? Are seat belts not mandated for passengers in the car? Can health insurance not be mandated for the citizen's inevitable need of medical attention as their body breaks down on the way to death and decay?
#7 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Thu 29 Mar 2012 at 02:41 PM
Thimbles always the prefect picture of hypocrisy and projection...
Thimbles: "Focus on the issues blah blah blah"
Breitbart didn't invent what you claim that was CNN, NBC, MSNBC, ABC, FOX, etc who all during the tea party protests claimed that they were killings/going to be killings blacks, jews, women, babies, etc, etc, etc.
Not once didn't they counter of the the tea party arguments but damn sure they called the tea party racists, murders, etc, etc, etc every chance they get/got...
Now you whine that the OWS which is racist, which hates jews, which has raped, murdered, etc, etc, etc ALL RECORDED IN POLICE RECORDS AND ON VIDEO TAPE... claiming that thats all a "distraction"...
Breitbart didn't invent it it just turned it around and shoved it into the media's face...
"The problem with American politics today is that the democrats are the conservatives -"
Democrats in the US have ALWAYS been europeon conservatives... aka facists/communisms. In europe the republicans would be considered the liberal party.
In US politics the conservatives wish to conserve freedom which is what the US was founded on... that of course makes them centrists because they don't want freedom they just want to conserve the current freedom no matter how little or much freedom their is.
In US politics liberals want huge government, massive government control all anything and everything. Put another way they want liberal amounts of government, control and laws. They are of course left wing.
In US politics their is a very tiny 5% or so that is rightwing that wants freedom, wants more freedom, wants the freedoms that were had when the US was first founded. They have no party and really no voice.
PS "STOP THE HATE" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LnEQQnj7eXo&feature=g-logo&context=G25e6b8fFOAAAAAAAEAA
#8 Posted by robotech master, CJR on Thu 29 Mar 2012 at 03:49 PM
So I just got done taking a short look at the study thimbles posted and in fact as per normal the headline is a lie and the true is pretty much completely opposite.
It displays clearly that conservatives are becoming more pro-science over the years not less.
It also clearly displays the well known fact that rightwingers are more in tuned with science and leftwingers are much more gullible to propaganda.
In fact the headline itself is a perfect display of the fact leftwingers believe anything without reading the source or data and simply spit out any propaganda that suits their agenda.
The facts are meaningless to people like thimbles just the propaganda headline and opinion of the facts from some "approved" source.
#9 Posted by robotech master, CJR on Thu 29 Mar 2012 at 07:43 PM
Yeah, robo, that's what it says. Click for yourself people. Robo is wild and crazy guy.
And most conservatives in general, where it be in economics, history, science, or politics are somewhat fact removed.
The dumb ones circulate chain emails to each other sourced from brain damaged blogs where instapundit is considered a intellectual luminary.
The smart ones go to narrative driven think tanks to circulate crap papers full of false data so that wsj editorial and washington post op-ed writers can shill for team republican in good conscience.
They are both reality challenged, much like our friend robo here.
#10 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Thu 29 Mar 2012 at 08:53 PM
lol thimbles really thats your counter? Posting me thrashing you like the noob you are.
Thimbles:"Never read the study itself only read the opinion of the study".
you know one of my favor "science" pieces... let me post them...
http://content.usatoday.com/communities/sciencefair/post/2010/05/mammoth-extinction-triggered-climate-cooling/1
This piece from USA today claims global cooling was caused by this where "this" for now is called X.
And then this piece from just a month after the first piece was done
http://www.agu.org/news/press/pr_archives/2010/2010-15.shtml
Says X causes global warming...
Forgive while I laugh in your eugenics believing stupidity and don't trust "science" done by other eugenics believers who only produce "science" to further their politics... and not even very good "science" at that.
How anyone can take these jokes "science" reports I don't know... its like reading reports on why blacks aren't human and jews belong in ovens from harvard... Sure they can write a good tale but do the facts even remotely support the argument? Nope... but hey I'm "anti-science" for believing blacks are human and jews should not be put in ovens... o well I guess I'll cry myself to sleep tonight.
#11 Posted by robotech master, CJR on Thu 29 Mar 2012 at 09:13 PM
Meanwhile, Bernstein links to a couple of discussions about how we shouldn't be talking about "broccoli", but how we should be talking about limiting principles which differentiate health care coverage from broccoli.
Or for that matter, if we really want to go in that direction, if a citizen shouldn't be compelled to pay for a private insurance product by the government, why are citizens compelled to pay for private armies like Blackwater (oh yeah Xe/Academi. the name change totally washes the blood away) and private contractors like Kellogg Brown & Root and Lockheed Martin to provide armed services?
Oh and it turns out the administration did try to use Scalia's anti marijuana arguments in support of the mandate.
That of course didn't work out because SURPRISE! Conservative judges play for team republican! Scalia and Thomas speak at Koch sponsored events, Thomas's wife takes money from her tea party organization, and they both went big government/screw state rights on Bush v Gore.
Impartial justice? That's not the business of the court anymore. They are partisan little conservative activists under those robes. You aren't going to convince these guys by quality of argument, these guys decide based on who and what you are arguing for.
And if you argue for team republican, chances are you'll win - merit aside.
#12 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Thu 29 Mar 2012 at 09:18 PM
"why are citizens compelled to pay for private armies like Blackwater (oh yeah Xe/Academi"
Well for ones thing its written in the US Constitution... not that you've ever read it or care about it/what it says.
Their is of course nothing different between being forced to buy "broccoli" vs "healthcare". Nothing... you whine about car insurance support your insane "government should control everything" argument.
First the US Constitution forbids that as well but you nut bags use the excuse that the public roads are public and thus not a right and thus since your not required to drive to live and thus not required to have car insurance to live you can be required to have car insurance... Same with the marijuana argument pure and classic centrist hypocrisy. Its took an amendment to the US Constitution to ban booze but thanks to leftwing nut cases like you thimbles and the hlp from the worthless party of centrism(aka the GOP) now a simple pen stroke can ban pretty much anything. Like I don't know banning your right to live without healthcare insurance...
Forcing someone to buy healthcare solely to live goes far beyond even your wettest socialists dreams....
#13 Posted by robotech master, CJR on Thu 29 Mar 2012 at 09:42 PM
""why are citizens compelled to pay for private armies like Blackwater (oh yeah Xe/Academi"
Well for ones thing its written in the US Constitution... not that you've ever read it or care about it/what it says."
Oh robo *shakes head* what can you say.
Where in the constitution does it say that the government has the right to compel citizens to pay gouging level prices for mercenary services which are not subject to American law nor rules of combat? How can the government expect citizens to foot the bill for a contractor's Chilean soldiers? How is that in the constitution?
Honestly, uninformed and highly medicated people like yourself should go somewhere where getting the basic facts correct doesn't matter. Free republic, I hear, is fun. Didn't that doctor denial character offer you refuge at his website? Here you are just embarrassing yourself.
#14 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Fri 30 Mar 2012 at 02:46 AM
"Where in the constitution does it say that the government has the right to compel citizens to pay gouging level prices for mercenary services"
When you can show you a merc group's "gouging level prices" maybe I'd even consider your argument... but since the avg teacher in cali makes 2x-3x as much per year as the avg merc AND has a massive benefit package along with that pay... well thats not going to happen any time soon. Using mercs almost always saves massive amounts of money it really depends on what your using them for and for how long... but once again generally merc groups are way war cheaper.
"which are not subject to American law nor rules of combat?"
Umm yeah clearly you've gone full retard... US mercs in almost all cases are subject to MORE laws then any other group on the battlefield... the groups LEAST subject to laws/rules are groups like the FBI.
The US Constitution clearly states the federal government is to provide for defense of the country... of course no where does it state the government has the power to say create a ponzi scheme such as social security... but hey when have facts or reality gotten in the way of your fantasy world.
#15 Posted by robotech master, CJR on Fri 30 Mar 2012 at 03:09 AM
hey thimbles heres another study you can twist and turn.
"Eidelman and his colleagues’ paper will surely outrage many on the right (who will take offense to the idea that their ideology is linked to low brainpower). The researchers do their best to preemptively answer such criticism. "
http://www.miller-mccune.com/politics/is-conservatism-our-default-ideology-40703/
I'm sure the address will be nice a wordy just like harvard responding to people claiming that eugenics or global warming or any of a host of other things is wrong...
#16 Posted by robotech master, CJR on Fri 30 Mar 2012 at 02:06 PM
Pat no one has good info on it... even the court has refused to read the whole bill being as massively complex and long as it is... I do know that they just came out with this though
"Senate Republican staffers continue to look though the 2010 health care reform law to see what’s in it, and their latest discovery is a massive $17 trillion funding gap.
“The more we learn about the bill, the more we learn it is even more unaffordable than was suspected,” said Alabama Sen. Jeff Sessions, the Republicans’ budget chief in the Senate.
“The bill has to be removed from the books because we don’t have the money,” he said."
Read more: http://dailycaller.com/2012/03/30/another-17-trillion-surprise-found-in-obamacare/#ixzz1qfVUzk5F
The reality is this bill is so massive that it will likely take decades to understand its full effect... and even then much of the bill has statutes that setup regulation panels, groups, committees among other things and what those group dictate will effect the end product as well... which means at the very least it will take a few years for those groups to even be setup. Remember much of the bill is setup to take effect over time with the next big set taking effect in 2014 but I believe from what I've seen the whole bill doesn't take effect until at least 2017.
Then as said above you have all these groups the bill creates that have the power to dictate "law" about how healthcare will work.
#17 Posted by robotech master, CJR on Sat 31 Mar 2012 at 01:18 AM
One of the things these conservatives are doing to themselves is permanently damaging their plans for new deal replacement programs.
Paul Ryan's Medicare private insurance voucher replacement? Social security taxes paying for private accounts instead of guaranteed benefits? It's all broccoli, baby! Government has the power to tax for publicly provided services, not mandate fees for private ones. You've just argued your own projects into the realm of socialism, delegitimizing them just for the sake of sticking it to the democrat.
Conservatives are awesome.
#18 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Sat 31 Mar 2012 at 01:26 AM
"When you can show you a merc group's "gouging level prices" maybe I'd even consider your argument... "
http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/senate-panel-examines-contractor-spending/2012/03/29/gIQAdNlsjS_story.html
"McCaskill lamented the paucity of data comparing the costs of contractors and employees. A September report by the nonprofit Project on Government Oversight (POGO) did make some comparisons and found, McCaskill said, “that in some instances, contractors may be paid, on average, more than 1.83 times what federal employees are paid to perform the same work.”
The report, “Bad Business: Billions of Taxpayer Dollars Wasted on Hiring Contractors,” also said:
●“Federal government employees were less expensive than contractors in 33 of the 35 occupational classifications POGO reviewed.”
●“In one instance, contractor billing rates were nearly 5 times more than the full compensation paid to federal employees performing comparable services.”
●“The federal government has failed to determine how much money it saves or wastes by outsourcing, insourcing, or retaining services, and has no system for doing so.”"
Sigh.
#19 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Sun 1 Apr 2012 at 02:25 PM
So lets start out with the first link
http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/senate-panel-examines-contractor-spending/2012/03/29/gIQAdNlsjS_story.html
McCaskill said, “that in some instances, contractors MAY be paid, on average, more than 1.83 times what federal employees are paid to perform the same work.”
MAY as in maybe as in not sure as in could be... thats not science thats guessing at best.
As for the direct report
http://www.pogo.org/pogo-files/reports/contract-oversight/bad-business/co-gp-20110913.html
It doesn't even cover merc units it covers general contractors of which yes their is no doubt fraud... maybe you never heard of union?
Add in on top of that many of those contractors work in places like iraq... comparing the price of say having a fire department in your local town vs having a fire department in Baghdad is not compared at all... its insanely dangerous in baghdad to be part of the fire department they have their trucks shot up when they leave the base.
Nothing in the report is useful for your argument in fact the report support what me and many others believe that their is massive waste in the government... but that has nothing to due with merc unit and really everything to due with paper pushing desk jocks and unions.
Maybe you could do some real research into cost on the topic were talking about... like how much it costs to recruit and train ONE US soldiers through basic training... O wait let me help you out its between roughly 100,000-150,000 dollars.
The avg merc has around 10+ years in the military has all kinds of added training which costs 100,000s more dollars. If you look at a cali teacher or a NYC police officer with the same number of years they get payed as MUCH and often times MORE then a combat merc...
Are you really going to say with a straight face that a teacher in an A/Ced house school in zero danger who gets to go home every night, party, hang out with friends, etc, etc, etc should be getting payed more then a combat merc who have 400,000+ dollars worth of training, has a chance of dying, can't go home to family and friends, works insane hours at all hours day or night, etc, etc, etc...
Mercs are often payed chump change...
If everyone could do the job and you had millions of people trying to get it the pay would be low... but the requires are high and the job sucks and thus very few people even want the job let alone can get the job.
#20 Posted by robotech master, CJR on Sun 1 Apr 2012 at 03:51 PM
From back in the day:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/09/30/AR2007093001352.html
"Army Gen. David H. Petraeus, the top U.S. commander in Baghdad overseeing more than 160,000 U.S. troops, makes roughly $180,000 a year, or about $493 a day. That comes out to less than half the fee charged by Blackwater for its senior manager of a 34-man security team."
Luckily, this point will be all moot since contractors are as much like broccoli as health care, and taxpayers shouldn't be forced to pay for mercenaries to whom the govenrment has outsourced their global security.
#21 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Sun 1 Apr 2012 at 10:51 PM
You seem confused...
"Army Gen. David H. Petraeus, the top U.S. commander in Baghdad overseeing more than 160,000 U.S. troops, makes roughly $180,000 a year, or about $493 a day. That comes out to less than half the fee charged by Blackwater for its senior manager of a 34-man security team."
For one thing Petraeus isn't on the ground running ops... 2nd he's no SF, 3rd... you assume(very wrongly) thats he's being payed fair share for his work.
This is by far the worst and most retarded of assumptions lets look at some companies that are roughly the size of the personal as a general commends...
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/08/muhtar-kent-coca-cola_n_1332063.html
Coca-Cola Co. gave its CEO a pay package worth $21.2 million last year, up 10 percent from the previous year,
numbers they have
http://www.free-researchpapers.com/dbs/a5/bmu140.shtml
"The Company and its subsidiaries employ nearly 31,000 people around the world."
Its not that the mercs are being over payed its that the army/US military is INSANELY UNDER PAIDED.
You'll note that many teachers, police, fire, mayors and countless other no nothing jobs make over 180k a years... once again the army is UNDER PAYED not mercs being OVER PAYED... unless of course you think being a meter maid in NYC should be payed as much as a US General
#22 Posted by robotech master, CJR on Sun 1 Apr 2012 at 11:18 PM