At the end of August, Nebraska senator Ben Nelson, a Democrat up for reelection next year, told members of the Lincoln Rotary Club that it didn’t look like he would support an extension of the payroll tax holiday the president negotiated with Republicans last Christmas. “I wish I could (support it),” he said. “But all you’re doing is taking money that otherwise would help Medicare and Social Security.” There’s nothing remarkable about politicians talking to Rotarians, but it was remarkable for a conservative Democrat to say he didn’t think extending the Obama payroll tax cuts was such a hot idea. On Friday, Texas GOP congressman Pete Sessions, who chairs an organization to re-elect House Republicans, did likewise by calling the payroll tax cut “a horrible idea.”
Instead of delving into why a conservative Democrat and a diehard Republican are pooh-pooing the president’s plan for bringing less revenue into the Social Security system, the media of late have fixated on the disparaging comments presidential candidates, in particular Rick Perry, have made about Social Security. At the Republican candidates’ debate last week, Perry once again called Social Security a Ponzi scheme and a monstrous lie. Said Perry:
I think the Republican candidates are talking about ways to transition this program. And it is a monstrous lie. It is a Ponzi scheme to tell our kids that are twenty-five or thirty years today: ‘You’re paying into a program that’s not going to be there.’ Anybody that’s for the status quo with Social Security today is involved with a monstrous lie to our kids, and it’s not right.
Perry was basically repeating what he had said before in Iowa, and it looks like he will stay on message as long as he remains a candidate. It will be up to the media to explain the difference between Social Security, which is social insurance where people pay taxes and accumulate credits and then receive a pension backed by substantial political commitment and trillions of dollars in financial reserves, and a Ponzi scheme, which is a criminal fraud backed by nothing, as Brookings Senior Fellow Henry Aaron puts it.
What’s missing are stories explaining, as Nelson tried to do, that there could be long-term consequences tied to reducing the payroll tax. “The Ponzi scheme is a sideshow. It’s an outrageous claim designed to undermine confidence in the program,” says Nancy Altman, co-director of Strengthen Social Security, a progressive group trying to save the program. Altman knows her onions when it comes to Social Security, having assisted Alan Greenspan, who headed a bipartisan commission in 1983 that put Social Security on a sound financing footing. Altman wasn’t keen on the payroll tax holiday agreed to last December, telling NPR that this “could eventually lead to the unraveling of Social Security.” If Republicans make this permanent, it could spell real trouble for Social Security, she said.
I asked Altman if she had changed her mind. Nope, she hadn’t, and discussed the red flags that the public and the press should think about as another payroll tax cut zooms through Congress. The payroll tax cut now in effect reduced the amount of contributions employees pay from 6.2 percent to 4.2 percent, and left in place employers’ contributions, also 6.2 percent. This time around the president is proposing that workers pay a payroll tax of only 3.1 percent—a fifty percent reduction from the 6.2 percent rate that has been in effect for two decades. Employers would also be relieved of making payroll contributions on the first $5 million of their payroll, a move targeted at small employers.
Altman says these cuts would not be a big deal if they were temporary, but she believes they’ll stick around. “Congress has been reluctant to increase marginal tax rates by a modest amount on the very wealthiest Americans; it’s hard to believe they would be eager to allow Social Security contributions to double on the lowest-income, working Americans,” she said.
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Its not a Ponzi scheme (which the program has been called by many for nearly 40 years now) because the government is doing it. Flawless logic.
Right now Social Security does not contribute to the deficit, a point the president himself has made.
Not so.
This year, the system will pay out more in benefits than it receives in payroll taxes, an important threshold it was not expected to cross until at least 2016, according to the Congressional Budget Office.
#1 Posted by Mike H, CJR on Tue 13 Sep 2011 at 11:51 AM
Joke of the Day: "Altman knows her onions when it comes to Social Security, having assisted Alan Greenspan, who headed a bipartisan commission in 1983 that put Social Security on a sound financing footing."
LOL!
"Sound financing footing"?
Too, too funny... With a "sound financing footing" like Social Security's who could ever run out of money?
Lieberman Lie of the Day: "...the fact the program’s funds have been separate from general revenues..."
padikiller tolls the Reality Bell: "Tax income is deposited on a daily basis and is invested in "special-issue" securities. The cash exchanged for the securities goes into the general fund of the Treasury and is indistinguishable from other cash in the general fund."
http://www.ssa.gov/oact/progdata/fundFAQ.html
#2 Posted by padikiller, CJR on Tue 13 Sep 2011 at 12:55 PM
Sorry Padikiller you got it exactly backwards. The programs funds are represented by the securities it buys; what happens to the cash that it used to buy those securities is irrelevant.
On the other hand, congratulations on discovering the Social Security has a trust fund. You seemed to be completely unaware of its existence last week.
#3 Posted by Bob Gardner, CJR on Tue 13 Sep 2011 at 06:02 PM
LOL..
So now in Liberal La La Land, these trust fund "securities" = "funds"...
The non-transferable, unenforceable, unsecuritized IOU's that Congress prints up and puts in a file cabinet in Greenbelt are "funds"... These IOU's being the same "securities" (though completely unsecured, in point of fact) that confer absolutely no title to anything, and that are illegal to sell or to exchange for anything of value in any market anywhere in the world....
These are now "funds"...
You guys have Orwell flipping in his grave!
#4 Posted by padikiller, CJR on Tue 13 Sep 2011 at 06:35 PM
Of course the Social Security securities are funds. They are redeemable, and in fact are already being redeemed by the treasury.
You might not think that these securities are the best way to invest the Social Security surplus but it's still a surplus and still a trust fund.
And what do you mean by unenforcable?
#5 Posted by Bob Gardner, CJR on Tue 13 Sep 2011 at 11:35 PM
Bob... You're being ridiculous in your defense of the indefensible..
The Social Security "securities" (which of course are secured by nothing) are "redeemable" for..... Wait for it!..... F U N D S !
If the IOU's in the "trust fund" are actually "funds" - then WHY doesn't Social Security just mail them to the beneficiaries? HUH?
WHY does Congress have to replace these purported "funds" with (real, honest-to-goodness, actual) money (funds)? HUH?
Answer: These IOU's are NOT "funds". They must be redeemed for funds in order to pay benefits.
These IOU's are completely unenforceable in any court. They confer no title of any kind to any property. They are not transferable. They cannot be exchanged for one cent's worth of anything anywhere in the world. Congress can devalue them (or even default on them) with a simple law.
Just a little more than one month ago, the President publicly stated that he could not guarantee social security payments would be made due to political wrangling over the debt ceiling... He wasn't lying... WHY was it that he couldn't guarantee these payments? Answer: Because the IOU's sitting in the file cabinet at SSA AREN'T REAL. They AREN'T FUNDS.
#6 Posted by padikiller, CJR on Tue 13 Sep 2011 at 11:58 PM
So what you're saying, Padikiller, is that it would take an Act of Congress to devalue or default on these securities. That's not good enough for you because:
1) you have tolled (an imaginery) reality bell
2) you have put quotes around funds, which you believe changes them into "funds".
3) you have used all caps when you type NOT REAL.
I suppose we should expect you to start using all caps with a space in between each letter in your next post. But argument by typography is no substitute for logic.
If taxes were raised to the point that the trust fund was never exhausted, would it make any difference to your argument? Or is your only fix for SS to invest the surplus differently?
#7 Posted by Bob Gardner, CJR on Wed 14 Sep 2011 at 03:24 AM
What I am saying, Bob, is that anyone who thinks that there are "funds" in the Social Security "Trust Fund" has another think coming....
Which would you rather have in your pocket at Walmart if you were hungry?
Ten bucks in pennies?
Or Social Security "securities" with a face value of a billion dollars?
HINT: Choice number one puts some Cheeze-Its in your belly. Choice number two gets a security escort to the parking lot.
The "funds" taken at gunpoint from American employees and employers are deposited directly into the general fund of the U.S. Treasury, contrary to Trudy's ridiculous claim to the contrary. This is just the R E A L I T Y, as plainly acknowledged on the Social Security website.
You don't have to acknowledge this REALITY, but it isn't going anywhere.
#8 Posted by padikiller, CJR on Wed 14 Sep 2011 at 07:24 AM
Since he is a regular fixture around here, consulted on everything from economics, to politics, to foreign policy, I think it’s important to know what former Enron advisor Paul Krugman has to say on this:
Social Security is structured from the point of view of the recipients as if it were an ordinary retirement plan: what you get out depends on what you put in. So it does not look like a redistributionist scheme. In practice it has turned out to be strongly redistributionist, but only because of its Ponzi game aspect, in which each generation takes more out than it put in. Well, the Ponzi game will soon be over, thanks to changing demographics, so that the typical recipient henceforth will get only about as much as he or she put in (and today's young may well get less than they put in).
Truer words of wisdom have rarely been written, now I know why he got that Nobel.
#9 Posted by Mike H, CJR on Wed 14 Sep 2011 at 10:54 AM
SLAM DUNK, MIKE!...
You're going to be sending a lot of our commie/liberal brethren to their therapists over this one...
Cue the music:
"Krugman and Perry, sitting in a tree...".
#10 Posted by padikiller, CJR on Wed 14 Sep 2011 at 11:33 AM
You're going to be sending a lot of our commie/liberal brethren to their therapists over this one...
Well, I wouldnt go that far, after all, havent they always been at war with Eastasia?
#11 Posted by Mike H, CJR on Wed 14 Sep 2011 at 11:41 AM
Practical advice for Padikiller:
Put your share of the social security trust fund up for sale when you are eligible to collect. Put your real name up on the internet and announce that you will sign over your benefits for $10 in pennies. Then you can go to Walmart and get your cheezits.
#12 Posted by Bob Gardner, CJR on Wed 14 Sep 2011 at 11:51 AM
If I could sell my share of the trust fund now, I would certainly do so Bob.
However, it's illegal. These so-called "securities" (which are of course completely unsecured in R E A L I T Y) have no intrinsic worth and cannot be exchanged for anything of value in any market anywhere in the whole wide world.
It's just that R E A L I T Y thing, dude. Sorry.
#13 Posted by padikiller, CJR on Wed 14 Sep 2011 at 12:27 PM
I love how conservatives focus their ire on social security because they hate the government program which has been funding their income tax and corporate tax cuts over the last thirty years - and few conservatives debated the fiscal viability of those at the time, as put forth by that sudden cited authority on the subject Paul Krugman - now that the program manages to generate only the revenue required to fund the benefits and not the tax cuts.
The growth in social security expenses flatlines according to all major projections and the need for social security benefits has only risen as people over 50 become less viable in a depressed job market that is focused on cutting the more generous private sector benefits of the past and shedding the potential sick and lame from the private sector medical plans in the future.
The reality conservatives don't talk about is that the cost explosions are not going to take place in the "ponzi scheme" known as social security, they are going to take place within the failed market that is health care - the lemons of which are covered by government health care. As the failed private market in health care pushes the public cost of health care higher and higher, government finances are going to deteriorate.
Unfortunately, for conservatives, the only humane way to deal with these problems is to question the viability of stupid tax cuts and to intervene more to constrain the private costs of health care so that they are more in line with the costs of every other advanced country.
So let's demagogue about social security instead, because that's the easy target who's problems are still decades away, instead of the health care issue which is a problem now. Because solving the health care issue involves making choices conservatives LOATH to make.
#14 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Wed 14 Sep 2011 at 01:38 PM
PS. it is true that the revenues from social security are regressive since they are capped for payrolls $100,000 and above, but the benefits are progressive.
This is why conservatives hate the program. It subsidizes the wrong people and benefits the wrong classes.
A-holes.
PS. Please see this.
#15 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Wed 14 Sep 2011 at 01:50 PM
It always comes down to rationing healthcare with these commie/liberals...
They want to tell private citizens to spend less money on healthcare for themselves in order to suck up the money for commie redistribution.
Thankfully, the Amercan electorate sees through this commie nonsense and wants no part of it. You think 2010 was bad for the Dems? Just wait till next year. When a Republican takes a Jewish district in Brooklyn by 8 points, the crap is really starting to hit the fan. The Liberal Gravy Train has derailed. The Tea Party has put the skids on the liberal machine, and unless a miracle happens, things will straighten out further in a few months.
#16 Posted by padikiller, CJR on Wed 14 Sep 2011 at 02:24 PM
In padkiller world, people want to go bankrupt and/or die because of treatable disease or injury.
In padkiller world, private citizens want to spend more money on healthcare for themselves than citizens of other counties who get better results at half the cost with the added benefit of universal coverage.
Padkiller world is a very stupid place to be.
#17 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Wed 14 Sep 2011 at 03:23 PM
In the padikiller world, people do work, make money and buy their own health insurance. The ones who are too lazy or too incapacitated to do this end up as wards of the state in institutions, isolated from society (broke, but healthy).
The choice is simple - pay your own way, or go live in an institution. You want freedom without working? Fine - grab a tent, live off the land and head for the hills. You want a roof over your head? Either work to get one, or surrender your liberty and the government will give you one. Your choice.
In the padikiller world, private citizens spend their money how they choose to spend their own money.
In commie world, the government snatches money and wastes it providing crappy services as inefficiently as it can.
Commie world (as history has shown in every instance) is a horrible place to be.
#18 Posted by padikiller, CJR on Wed 14 Sep 2011 at 03:41 PM
In padkiller world, the insurance, pharmaceutical, hospital complex collects unaffordable rents from the most vulnerable elements in society making people choose between medication and food, basic protection and the rent, the hospital or the car payments.
With no better outcomes than health care systems in other countries who do not saddle their citizens with such a burden.
A burden which, previous to the giant mortgage crash, was the leading cause of bankruptcy.
But, in padkiller world, none of these problems are the fault of the health care industry, just like the mortgage crash wasn't the fault of any in the banking/finance industry, and anyone who dares insinuate so is a "commie/liberal".
In padkiller world, consumers are best served by parasitic industries which cost twice as much than those in more regulated economies and consumers should suck it up and like it.
In padkiller world, citizens should not expect the benefits they paid for - and are entitled to - to be honored when a parasitic class needs more tax cuts and wars.
In padkiller world, economic actors will behave in the absence of monitoring authorities and their ability to attach consequences to actions that produce horrific outcomes and short term market rewards.
Padkiller lives in a dream world. The rest of us live in Realityland. I guess that might make the rest of us "commie/liberals" but I think it's more likely that it makes you an idiot.
#19 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Wed 14 Sep 2011 at 07:17 PM
Thankfully, the American people aren't buying this commie/liberal baloney.
There is no health care crisis. You don't trip over dead bodies in the waiting rooms of hospitals here, like you do in England. You don't wait 100 days for an MRI here like you do in Toronto. An illegal alien who gets run over by a truck gets served in ER's here (even if he is unable to pay), even though he wouldn't necessarily be served in the ER's of socialist countries of the world.
Bankruptcy doesn't ruin people in America. Donald Trump has been bankrupt three times. Bankruptcy lets people keep homes, cars, cash, clothes and get rid of debt and (hopefully) learn to take some personal responsibility and buy some damned insurance if they don't want to risk everything.
Thankfully, most people see through the commie obfuscation and want the American dream the way it's always been: independence, personal responsibility, hard work and good fortune that can create a limitless future.
Poll after poll after poll clearly shows that the American electorate rejects the commie/liberal nonsense that the Dems stupidly crammed down the throats of their constituents, and, as the election made clear, the constituents want the Tea Party types to straighten things out.
The question that needs to be answered by commie/liberals in order to garner public support is a question that I have posed here many times, namely:
"Why do you commie/liberals believe that the government can operate an economy more efficiently than the free market can?"
HUH?
It will be snowy day in the Hot Place when you get straight answer to that simple question - they know that their philosophy is illogical.
It's one thing to state the old-fashioned '60's commie position - something along the lines of "I know that putting the government in charge of health care will cost gobs of money and result in crappier services, but society needs it and its worth the cost in order to spread the wealth around"
But that's not what these new Keynesian commies believe. They actually believe that putting the government in charge of the health care industry will make it run better and cheaper. For real. They really do. Just like magic.
Well, thank goodness this silliness seems to be dying on the vine. I predict that SCOTUS will tank the individual mandate next year and that without it, the Dems won't have the political capital to withstand the ensuing vote to repeal Obamacare.
#20 Posted by padikiller, CJR on Wed 14 Sep 2011 at 08:05 PM
Thimbles, you are wasting your time with padikiller. He lives in a world of his own construction, trapped by his own ideology, unable to connect with his fellow humanity. (And that's assuming he is sincere, which I doubt.) He will always believe in the theologies which proclaim "every man for himself", "government is evil", "corporations are good and implicitly trustworthy", and "anybody who benefits from government is a leech". He lives in a world in which the only problem is government, and those damn poor people. He will see no value in any policy that promotes social well being.
So don't expect padikiller to "finally see the light".
#21 Posted by Rick, CJR on Wed 14 Sep 2011 at 08:31 PM
It ain't for paddy's benefit for which I argue. A toilet unflushed tends to stink up the whole house.
What I do is for the benefit of the house.
Meanwhile, in paddyland...
#22 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Wed 14 Sep 2011 at 08:58 PM
Rick wrote that padikiller believes that "corporations are good and implicitly trustworthy".
padikiller responds: I believe nothing of the kind. Corporations can do no good or evil. They are legal fictions created solely to spur investment by limiting the liability of shareholders. They can't act. Only PEOPLE do good or evil.
You find PEOPLE committing crimes (whether in a corporation or in a nunnery) then prosecute. I have consistently maintained this position in the face of the silly, never-ending misrepresentations of the commie/liberals here.
Government, on the other hand, actually is evil. Government exists only to restrain liberty by force of law. It should be limited in scope to the smallest we can make it in order to maintain an orderly society that protects property rights and individual freedoms.
What I'd like to know is why it is that you commie/liberals believe that government can advance society better and faster than free choices made by free people in a free market. HUH?
#23 Posted by padikiller, CJR on Wed 14 Sep 2011 at 09:42 PM
"What I'd like to know is why it is that you commie/liberals believe that government can advance society better and faster than free choices made by free people in a free market. HUH?"
Because the "free market" is a competitive game in which the provider of services attempt to monopolize the game while maximizing their profits. The businesses' primary goal is not to provide services to consumers nor to advance society. Their primary goal is to extract maximum revenues from consumers at minimum cost. ROI. That's it in "shareholder #1" capitalism.
Therefore, when competition threatens the ratio between revenue and expense (what you'd call profits) and rents are unable to be extracted, providers either consolidate in order to concentrate market power back in the hands of the producer or collude on the prices and the quality of services to limit the damage done by true competition.
Which is exactly why the private health care market is broken and people in more "commie" countries pay half of what Americans pay for better results and more universal coverage.
Those are the facts - Ding Ding, reality bell and whatnot.
#24 Posted by Thimbles, CJR on Wed 14 Sep 2011 at 10:36 PM